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Satorri
11-04-2009, 06:24 AM
So, for all the talking about it, we've managed not to demonstrate yet why they're using this. Knowledgeable tanks have just been trying to explain to the community about how this is a good thing, but I think I can actually demonstrate why this is a good thing.

Chill of the Throne will make it so that while your dodge chance doesn't actually change, you functionally have 20% less dodge if you're being attacked. Think of it like giving everything in Icecrown Citadel an Expertise aura.

Why are they doing this?

We've heard it said that avoidance is too high, right? But why is it too high?

Two simple values to consider when considering tank damage taken are the size of the hits (how much damage you see pop up each time), and how much damage the tank takes in total (easiest way to represent this within the varying time frame is with incoming dps).

The size of the hits you take is determined only by mitigation, by armor, resistance, block, and passive reductions from stance, talents, and buffs.

The amount of damage you take overall, however, is dependent also on avoidance. In a large enough average, 50% avoidance *is* 50% damage reduction, but that value will vary when you look at smaller sample sizes (i.e. in a 1 min fight you may actually avoid only 40% of the incoming attacks, or you may avoid 60% and get more value out of the avoidance in that small time frame). This overall damage reduction has to be accounted for by Blizzard, though given the random nature of it, I'd bet they value it slightly differently than a direct comparison with armor reduction percentage.

So, let's throw around some more solid numbers to illustrate. Let's consider a fictional boss in tier 9 content. Blizzard wants him to do about 5k dps to the tank (to balance against the expected level of healing the healers can put out, which is in turn a factor of the expected gear level, and level of distraction for encounter mechanics).

If the expected average tank will have 65% reduction from armor, 15% (rough average for the classes) reduction from stance and buffs, and 60% avoidance, the boss will have to do roughly 42k unmitigated dps to result in that 5k dps actual effect.

42k unmitigated dps would, with those stats, result in swings hitting for 84k before mitigation on a 2 sec swing timer, which the tank will see as 25k hits when it lands.

If they then want to step up to the next level of content, we'll say the tank now has expected average values of 67% damage reduction from armor, 15% miscellaneous damage reduction remains unchanged, and they will now have 65% avoidance. Being the next step up in content, they now want the tank to take 6k incoming dps.

Following the same math as above this would be 61k unmitigated dps, or 122k damage per hit before mitigation. With the expected stats that would be 34k per swing.

Ouch right? To keep tank damage stepping up to match improved healer output, and while making the new tank gear an improvement so tanks want to upgrade, the tank is now getting hit much harder. To make that sustainable and not reach a insta-gib threat, the tank's health pool would have to scale much faster, and this is a runaway train.

So, the step they're taking is to reduce avoidance. If you follow this path of balancing however, watch what happens.

The goal is that the tank takes 6k dps. The adjusted stats are 67% from armor, 15% from stance/buffs, and 45% avoidance (note: you will still get the same step up from gear, that hasn't changed).

From these values the boss will have to do 38.9k dps, or 77.8k per swing every 2.0 sec. With these mitigation values, the tank will now take only 21.8k damage per swing.

Note: the incoming damage is the same in overall scale, but each hit will actually be smaller than the previous tier. That means, to healers, you'll still be getting hit harder than ever before in total, but your whole health pool won't be flipping on and off like a light switch to get that increase. What really changed? You will take more hits, but any given hit will be smaller. This means you move away from the danger of "miss a heal and the tank dies" or "the tank took critical damage in less time than it takes to cast a heal because 2 effects lined up at the same time." You still take more damage, more healing is still required, but suddenly the tanking/healing game is fun again, instead of walking a razor's edge between life and death.

Following this path to find the desired balance, you can see why this is the smart move for Blizzard.


Now, it's been written well in many other places, but I'd like to re-emphasize something here. There are a couple of common reactions I've seen to this:
1.) "Why doesn't Blizzard just give us less avoidance?"
In order to do this, they couldn't just give us less on t10 gear, or we'd use t9 and not want the upgrades. They would have to rework all of the tank gear in the game to re-balance this one need. Chill of the Throne is a much simpler stepping stone, and Cataclysm is the time for the global paradigm shift. Expansions allow for the whole outlook to change because they can start semi-fresh, and sweeping changes are easier to implement with the LONG testing window and less mid-stream disruption.

2.) "Why didn't Blizzard see this coming?!?!"
Well, to a degree they did, and they've been trying to make small steps to keep things stable. They mentioned back in Naxx that they've felt avoidance was too high, and it's been seeing little adjustments here and there. Really, it hasn't reached a critical point yet, and I think they could've done Icecrown without really making a big change like this, but this change frees their hands to make a lot more interesting design choices in encounters, rather than trying to play in the corner that was painted. As above, this isn't the time to re-write the expansion, this is just a smart step to keep the balance the same in previous tiers (as they are currently working well enough), and leave us poised for a more flexible balance in Cataclysm.

3.) "Well, if cutting avoidance a little works so well, why don't we just get rid of it all together?!"

The thing is, this is a *balance* that makes the game more interesting. Considering the math above, if you have avoidance too high, the tank is teetering between life and death with every swing because they have to hit really hard when they do land. Alternately, if you take avoidance away completely, the tank just takes a constant and 100% predictable stream of damage. 6k dps with 65% armor rdx and 15% miscellany rdx becomes 20.2k unmitigated dps, and 12k per hit on a 2 sec swing timer. You *will* get hit for 12k every 2 seconds. The healer response to this is, I just find the right size heal and spam it, or I cast my big heal once every other 2 CD's. Suddenly healing no longer requires a brain or reflexes to do. You know what's coming, and there is nothing dynamic about it.

You can add unpredictable elements back in, say, make the tank crittable, or use encounter buffs! But, wait, we have encounter buffs, and to a degree they need to be regular and semi-predictable. That's a big part of what CD's are designed around. Making tanks crittable actually makes a no-avoidance world worse than adding avoidance. Why? Avoidance creates dips, moments where the tank doesn't need healing, which allows for survival, for skin-of-the-teeth luck, etc. It allows the tank to be tank-like and survive. Crits on the other hand mean the tank takes unpredictable surges of damage. Rather than being tank-y, it's now a health risk and a risk to the raid if a crit comes at the wrong time and the healers can't catch it.


Hopefully, this makes some sense to the people who can't get passed the idea that this is a tanking nerf, or a bad thing. Hopefully, you also understand my perspective (which I didn't invent) in the last portion, but this is a forum, this is where we discuss, so, reactions?

Reev
11-04-2009, 06:44 AM
Good post. Hope more people read it.

Adrael
11-04-2009, 06:52 AM
It's defintely a welcome 'nerf' and might make tanking more interesting, especially for the spikier tank classes. It looks like avoidance will become even less attractice now (not that it ever was too attractice).

Every 1% of avoidance at 45% avoidance translates to 1.8% mitigation from avoidance, while every 1% of avoidance at 65% is 2.8% mitigation. I hope they will itemize ICC gear properly, with lower avoidance values.

Satorri
11-04-2009, 06:54 AM
Lower avoidance values would make the gear less of an upgrade, unless they bumped up the stamina and armor a lot to compensate.

See the above comments about removing avoidance.

There's nothing wrong with avoidance, and nothing is changing about its value either in the continuing scale. Though you are correct of course about the overall damage reduction impact being larger at higher percentages for the same size step in percentage.

Synapse
11-04-2009, 06:55 AM
It is a double statement, Adrael, because if they nerfed avoidance with the intent of making it useful, we are expected to see more avoidable damage, so the practical use of it may increase.

Tenaveran
11-04-2009, 07:08 AM
As a healer myself, I have to say this post captures precisely why I think Chill of the Throne looks like a marvelous thing. I do love the excitement of what the RNG brings to the tank/heal dynamic, but only within the boundaries of reason. When it's *not possible* for me to defeat the moments of RNG evil, I become sad. I want to be challenged and stretched to the limits of my skill. But I want it to be possible to win.

At any rate, I'll leave the babble behind. Kudos to you for managing to crystallize some of the thoughts I've been having about this.

Satorri
11-04-2009, 07:10 AM
Well said Tenaveran. A lot of tanks represent here that their healers would be happier if they didn't have to think or react while healing. I know mine wouldn't.

Meeks
11-04-2009, 07:14 AM
It does not really change anything for me as a healer. Unless this goes live with a substantial HP boost it changes the nature of my healing by nothing.

In fact it reinforces the need to spam heals regardless of the situation.

Reev
11-04-2009, 08:20 AM
It's defintely a welcome 'nerf' and might make tanking more interesting, especially for the spikier tank classes. It looks like avoidance will become even less attractice now (not that it ever was too attractice).

Every 1% of avoidance at 45% avoidance translates to 1.8% mitigation from avoidance, while every 1% of avoidance at 65% is 2.8% mitigation. I hope they will itemize ICC gear properly, with lower avoidance values.

While this is true, consider also that if bosses are swinging for less damage, and we can survive more hits in a row, the value of getting more avoidance increases because it reduces the likelihood of damage spikes.

Say you're running in ICC and your healer is temporarily silenced, or needs to move, or there's a mortal strike on you, or whatever. Let's also say you have to survive 4 boss swings before the healer can get to you. With the way boss damage is now, you can maybe take 2 hits before dying. In ICC, let's say you can survive 3.

Hmmm. I was about to type out some math, but I realized it's been a while since I took stats, and I'm going to look foolish because I've complicated the scenarios I've put forth before. Can anyone do that math? 4 swings at 50% avoidance and the chance to get hit no more than twice vs. 4 swings and 30% avoidance and the chance to get hit no more than 3 times. Now I feel foolish for asking others to do my math, but I'd like to know if my hypothesis plays out.

Satorri
11-04-2009, 08:47 AM
The concept remains the same, though it will play out differently. Avoidance breaks up your damage intake and makes you easier to heal, even if the absolute need of healing is less predictable.

If 2 hits will kill you, and you avoid a hit, you get an extra swing timer to be healed up before you die. If it takes 4 swings to kill you, an avoid only pushes that down the line, but it is less absolutely urgent.

That's the funny paradox. People think high boss damage makes avoidance weak, but it actually makes it very powerful, it's the random factor that makes it hard to trust and people reluctant to do so.

Reev
11-04-2009, 09:00 AM
Right, the concept remains the same, but when you have more opportunities to avoid because it takes more hits to kill you, you get more chances to push out your death in time for that heal. The result is the same, yes, but the chance of that result occurring ends up higher when there are more swings before you die, even if the value of avoidance is lower per swing. Am I just missing the point?

Taei
11-04-2009, 09:24 AM
Very nicely put, Satorri :) I think they key point is thinking of the tank's incoming damage in terms of DPS (which then defines the amount of healing / number of healers you should expect to have), rather than Boss X should hit a tank for Y.

It worries me that it's a bandaid that they've resorted to again, and probably will have to in the future. If there was another raid in WotLK, there'd have to be a -25% dodge aura... Diminishing returns wasn't enough. Perhaps giving bosses expertise is a smoother solution, ramping it up for the more difficult raids. Tanks would still need to increase their avoidance with each tier, and the item designers wouldn't have to worry about letting avoidance get too high.

lyd
11-04-2009, 09:38 AM
It does not really change anything for me as a healer. Unless this goes live with a substantial HP boost it changes the nature of my healing by nothing.

In fact it reinforces the need to spam heals regardless of the situation.


The net effect on healers will be a reduction in overhealing, because tanks will be taking more consistent damage rather than what we're used to now:

miss-parry-dodge-miss-OHMYGODHEAL-miss-dodge-OHMYGODHEAL-miss-parry-miss-OHMYGODHEAL

your observation is accurately representative of the current situation: the fact that the tank could, at any time, take a life-threatening hit, means you can't stop healing them even when they're not taking damage. if you wait for the hit to happen to start casting, the tank will probably die. so healers right now accept large overhealing as inevitable. This change will make damage occur at more regular intervals, at per-hit rate that is lower relative to the EHP and hps of the players who are geared appropriately for the content, and hence reduce overhealing; and likely, increase survivability.

to put it more simply: the mechanics don't matter, so long as you just understand that it decreases the likelihood of spike damage killing a tank. Reducing the amount of hits a tank avoids allows them to reducing the damage he takes from each hit. all adjustments will be relative to that change. for healers, that means that the tank is less likely to die from a damage spike if you have to stop healing briefly to dodge a ground effect or power through a stun. In other words, you may find yourself in a situation where you only have time to cast a flash heal, and with this cahnge, the flash heal might actually keep him up. without this change, it most assuredly would not.

Satorri
11-04-2009, 09:42 AM
No, I think you're right, Reev. I think this actually makes avoidance a more pleasant mechanic for people's sensibilities. If two hits will kill you, avoiding one is a 50% increase in your lifespan. If it takes 4 hits to kill you, avoiding one is a 25% increase in your lifespan. But no one likes miss, dodge, miss, dead. I think the effect will be easier to appreciate this way.

Taei, it is a bandaid but one to bridge them to their next step which is the reworking in the expansion. Rather than lamenting that they didn't get it spot-on right from the beginning (as no one does, ever), it'd be handy if people appreciated the fact that they're learning, yeah?

And really, this is giving the mobs expertise, a scad of it, but expertise none the less, as they're neglecting dodge. Diminishing returns is plenty, part of the reason for my post is pointing out that it is not a problem with how avoidance works, but how where we fall in the balance relates to the other mechanics.

Meeks
11-04-2009, 09:53 AM
The net effect on healers will be a reduction in overhealing, because tanks will be taking more consistent damage rather than what we're used to now:

miss-parry-dodge-miss-OHMYGODHEAL-miss-dodge-OHMYGODHEAL-miss-parry-miss-OHMYGODHEAL

your observation is accurately representative of the current situation: the fact that the tank could, at any time, take a life-threatening hit, means you can't stop healing them even when they're not taking damage. if you wait for the hit to happen to start casting, the tank will probably die. so healers right now accept large overhealing as inevitable. This change will make damage occur at more regular intervals, at per-hit rate that is lower relative to the EHP and hps of the players who are geared appropriately for the content, and hence reduce overhealing; and likely, increase survivability.

to put it more simply: the mechanics don't matter, so long as you just understand that it decreases the likelihood of spike damage killing a tank. Reducing the amount of hits a tank avoids allows them to reducing the damage he takes from each hit. all adjustments will be relative to that change. for healers, that means that the tank is less likely to die from a damage spike if you have to stop healing briefly to dodge a ground effect or power through a stun. In other words, you may find yourself in a situation where you only have time to cast a flash heal, and with this cahnge, the flash heal might actually keep him up. without this change, it most assuredly would not.

According to GC tanks will still be in danger fo dieing to 2 hits, at least in toc gear, yet avoidance is even lower.

if it was at all possible the healing game will become even more grounded it spam the hell out of the tank regardless of what is happening.

This change has more impact on your healers than the tank...tanks are going to change nothing...they are going to take more damage and there is nothing they can do about it. The responsibility, like usual, lands squarely on the shoulders of your healers making it even more spam reliant.

If it was not for the fact that I have to move out of fire a couple times a fight I could heal most fights blind folded.

Not sure why any tank are complaining about this...it is not really your problem.

Kavtor
11-04-2009, 09:59 AM
I think it's helpful to make the illustration very, very simple.

-----------------------------------

We need to balance the challenge of the encounter on the tank taking a certain amount of damage, and the healers healing that damage.

Lets say the tank needs to take 5000 DPS after modifiers.

An average debuffed boss swings once every 2.4 seconds.

Lets look at a 24 second period, or 10 swings.

Lets assume most tanks have 60% avoidance right now, and 40% avoidance with Chill of the Throne.

At 60% avoidance, the tank will be hit 4 times every 24 seconds, for 30,000 damage a swing.

At 40% avoidance, the tank will be hit 6 times every 24 seconds, for 20,000 damage a swing.

If a tank is hit for 30,000, the healers can never stop spamming the tank, as the tank cannot survive two back to back hits.

If the tank is hit for 20,000, the tank can survive two back to back hits, and the healers can afford to make more tactical healing choices.

To me, that's the sound byte.
-------------------------------

Do I continually use a short heal? Do I time slower, bigger heals? Can I stop healing the tank for a second to move out of the fire, heal a DPS, whatever.

The tank and the healers deal with the same amount of damage either way. That's how the encounter has to be designed. But the time in which they have to deal with that damage increases, giving the players enough time to make choices.

Now, add on another tier of gear (full 258). Wear some avoidance trinkets, more avoidance gems. 70% avoidance isn't out of the realm of possibility.

You're getting hit 3 times every 24 seconds. For 40,000 damage just to balance the encounter.

Sounds fun right? Much easier to balance the encounter and player abilities, around a steadier damage intake, which also allows for the players to make choices, rather than always having to be prepared for the rare tank gib, but often not being threatened.

lyd
11-04-2009, 10:12 AM
According to GC tanks will still be in danger fo dieing to 2 hitswould you mind sourcing this? I'm not worried that you're being disingenuous or anything, i'm just interested to read what he actually said. the change seems counter-intuitive if tanks are still going to be dying in 2 hits.

Edgewalker
11-04-2009, 10:17 AM
would you mind sourcing this? I'm not worried that you're being disingenuous or anything, i'm just interested to read what he actually said. the change seems counter-intuitive if tanks are still going to be dying in 2 hits.

Until they gear up. I imagine he doesn't mean 2 hits in the literal sense of 2 back to back regular melees, but in the current implementation sense of ability combos + melee that instantly killed tanks in ToTGC before tanks had better gear.

On an unrelated note, even if this went live, today, in ToTGC, you likely would see absolutely minimal difference in tank death from how encounters are designed and healed.
The sky is certainly not falling.

Kavtor
11-04-2009, 10:19 AM
We're going to be undergeared. And the heroic modes are going to be hard.
And we're going to have fun cleaves and such on top of everything.

Tanks are still going to explode. ICC isn't designed to be easy.
But we're going to explode less than we would had they not made the change.

Bishoptwo
11-04-2009, 10:20 AM
It does not really change anything for me as a healer. Unless this goes live with a substantial HP boost it changes the nature of my healing by nothing.

In fact it reinforces the need to spam heals regardless of the situation.

^this

Bovinity
11-04-2009, 10:22 AM
But the time in which they have to deal with that damage increases, giving the players enough time to make choices.

^ that!

Bishoptwo
11-04-2009, 10:24 AM
would you mind sourcing this? I'm not worried that you're being disingenuous or anything, i'm just interested to read what he actually said. the change seems counter-intuitive if tanks are still going to be dying in 2 hits.

3) Tank healing was fun in Sunwell, IMO. Sunwell was challenging. That's what a lot of players are looking for in the final raid tier. If you don't like the challenge of healing a tank then I'm not sure why you'd want to be a healer. Now as I've said, we're not saying Icecrown is only for the Sunwell crowd. But I am pretty convinced there are going to be a lot of "Icecrown is too hard because my tank died" posts here when it goes live.

I still expect many tanks will die in two hits until they get geared up a little. But they will, and then the ability to survive two hits in a row won't be as big an issue.

Source of all his quotes: MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Icewell Radiance is in! (http://blue.mmo-champion.com/26/20677632379-icewell-radiance-is-in.html) and all of his contradictions.

Bovinity
11-04-2009, 10:27 AM
The important part of his wording is that...yes...people just going in there on the bleeding edge of progression are liable to die in 2 hits. But he also specifies that it won't be thus once people are geared up.

That's a bit different from how it is now, when even if you have some ToC gear you're in danger of going splat pretty much all the time in some situations.

Meeks
11-04-2009, 10:29 AM
would you mind sourcing this? I'm not worried that you're being disingenuous or anything, i'm just interested to read what he actually said. the change seems counter-intuitive if tanks are still going to be dying in 2 hits.

From ghost crawler:

"I still expect many tanks will die in two hits until they get geared up a little. But they will, and then the ability to survive two hits in a row won't be as big an issue."

Bishoptwo
11-04-2009, 10:35 AM
The important part of his wording is that...yes...people just going in there on the bleeding edge of progression are liable to die in 2 hits. But he also specifies that it won't be thus once people are geared up.

That's a bit different from how it is now, when even if you have some ToC gear you're in danger of going splat pretty much all the time in some situations.

I have never died to crazy spike damage in ToGC 25 that couldn't be healed through or CD'ed through appropriately. Anytime I have died has either been human error on my part or someone else's.

Bovinity
11-04-2009, 11:22 AM
That's true, but it's irrelevant to the topic of the paradigm shifting from 2-shotting even geared tanks to (hopefully) seeing longer reaction time possibilities.

Of course, its all speculation at this point.

Satorri
11-04-2009, 11:35 AM
Content is balanced, usually, to be challenging to people who are running it with gear from that instance, but only enough so that once you're geared it isn't a cake walk.

Of course tanks coming in a full tier lower in gear are going to get hammered. The distinction is, in ToC, Anub still hits a tank for half his health on every swing, but that is not the way they want it to be.


So to try to return to the original point of this post, what is it that you see is the big bad deal here? Maybe it's premature for all of this since we have no solid numbers to work with yet, but why are you so bent on assuming they're trying to break the game?

Adrael
11-04-2009, 12:45 PM
When I said they should give less avoidance on ICC gear, I did mean they should compensate by adding stamina, my bad for not pointing it out.

I haven't seen any statement saying we'll have to deal with more avoidable hits. I think I saw a post mentioning non-avoidable damage referring to the use of cooldowns for predictable damage bursts.

There's another aspect for reducing avoidance. Like Satorri wrote, we don't really see the true mitigation from avoidance in short fights. The variance is big enough so that even a tank with theoretical 65% avoidance could see only 50% or less avoided hits on his/her combat log. If the fight lasts long enough we see the proper avoidance mitigation. I suppose we don't know this for sure, but from what I understand there's a good chance they will not only nerf avoidance but also increase bosses' attack speed. This means that the proper avoidance mitigation will show on our combat logs sooner than it is on current encounters.

Bottom line: with increased attack speed, avoidance becomes a bit more reliable, and that's actually a minor buff on avoidance.

Ofc I don't know if we'll see an increase in the average ICC boss attack speed.

Reev
11-04-2009, 12:53 PM
We probably won't see an increased boss swing speed, but we'll see lower damage per swing. It will still be in increase in total damage a tank takes. Lower damage per hit also makes avoidance more reliable.

Bovinity
11-04-2009, 01:10 PM
Swing speed isn't changing, GC already covered that in the initial thread. So no worries there.

Satorri
11-05-2009, 05:44 AM
Like Satorri wrote, we don't really see the true mitigation from avoidance in short fights. The variance is big enough so that even a tank with theoretical 65% avoidance could see only 50% or less avoided hits on his/her combat log.

You only present one side and so miss the point.

In a fight you can see 80% avoidance. The tricky thing about avoidance is that it is not static on every hit, which is why many people have shunned it, for fear of the RNG.

It averages out in the end, but it can be a range of effect on short fights.

As an example, when Naxx was fresh content and I was an Unholy DK tanking Hatefuls on Patchwerk, I had a fight where I avoided 78% of his attacks, I had Bone Shield up nearly 100% of the fight because he never chewed through charges before the CD was finished.

The point of all of this is that Chill of the Throne does nothing severe enough to diminish the value of avoidance, and largely I think the sheeple portion of the community has overblown ideas about avoidance being a poor survival value already.

Bovinity
11-05-2009, 06:15 AM
Yeah...assuming that everything GC says is accurate in this case and that our interpretation of it is correct, this change should significantly increase the value of avoidance.

If you go from a 2-hit death to a 3-hit or even 4-hit death system, avoidance just keeps getting more and more valuable for preventing those strings. Will there still be unavoidable attacks? Sure, that's already been addressed and it'll probably be how dangerous those attacks are that determine where tanks put their gearing priorities.

It's entirely possible that even with this change we'll be forced to stack enormous amounts of EH. Or it might be possible that gearing for a large amount of avoidance becomes viable again. We'll just have to see.

lyd
11-05-2009, 08:32 AM
Yeah...assuming that everything GC says is accurate in this case and that our interpretation of it is correct, this change should significantly increase the value of avoidance.

It increases the value of your remaining avoidance after the tax. that's true. but remember that this is a balancing act on Blizzard's part. it will be harder to get back up to where you were prior to Totc through upgrades than it would be normally, because the DR from upgrades will still function off your base avoidance and not your post-CotT avoidance. tanks will still be stacking stamina and letting avoidance come from gear alone. EHP is still king with this change, i'm afraid.

robbon
11-05-2009, 08:49 AM
People refer to the sunwell factor, again it has to be remembered that only a small % of guilds and players actually experienced sunwell compared to the masses that Blizz want to now experience Icecrown.

As such whilst im expecting the change in mechanic to affect tanks / healers play style and im certainly anticipating a gem change in most tanks (is this a means of blizz moving tanks away from pure stam stacking ?) for those that have raided ToGC im not anticipating a significant impact on their progression.

The guilds that are only now just hitting Anub 25 normal..or even just 10 man normal may have a slightly steeper ramp to climb.

Instead of the stamina stacking would a move to increase dodge rating compensate for chill of the throne ? or would it be more of a case to stack more stamina and simply soak the additional hits.

Until it lands and we experience it its speculation. The one thing i do
know is that at the moment im in the best gear im going to get (given my guild/server/ability) this side of the release so there isnt much i can do until then...possibly apart from get some nice dodge trinkets..some dodge/stam gems and look at a few more expertise enchants...

I also remember somewhere that expertise was going to play a much bigger role in tank mechanics ?? and also defence rating was going to change. IS this all going to occur at patch ? or cataclysm..

Sorry its a little disjointed im at work :)

Reev
11-05-2009, 08:53 AM
People refer to the sunwell factor, again it has to be remembered that only a small % of guilds and players actually experienced sunwell compared to the masses that Blizz want to now experience Icecrown.

As such whilst im expecting the change in mechanic to affect tanks / healers play style and im certainly anticipating a gem change in most tanks (is this a means of blizz moving tanks away from pure stam stacking ?) for those that have raided ToGC im not anticipating a significant impact on their progression.

The guilds that are only now just hitting Anub 25 normal..or even just 10 man normal may have a slightly steeper ramp to climb.

Instead of the stamina stacking would a move to increase dodge rating compensate for chill of the throne ? or would it be more of a case to stack more stamina and simply soak the additional hits.

Until it lands and we experience it its speculation. The one thing i do
know is that at the moment im in the best gear im going to get (given my guild/server/ability) this side of the release so there isnt much i can do until then...possibly apart from get some nice dodge trinkets..some dodge/stam gems and look at a few more expertise enchants...

I also remember somewhere that expertise was going to play a much bigger role in tank mechanics ?? and also defence rating was going to change. IS this all going to occur at patch ? or cataclysm..

Sorry its a little disjointed im at work :)

I think you're thinking of Cataclysm. In Cat, bosses may have something similar to Expertise. Also in Cat, defense rating will no longer exist, and crit immunity will come from Prot talents, completely removing hard barriers to entry on heroics, and theoretically swelling the ranks of tanks.

Kavtor
11-05-2009, 09:00 AM
Instead of the stamina stacking would a move to increase dodge rating compensate for chill of the throne ? or would it be more of a case to stack more stamina and simply soak the additional hits.

Chill doesn't change the theory of tank gearing at all.

Stack stamina / armour until you can survive the worst case.
Stack threat until your DPS aren't holding back to make the enrage timer.
Stack avoidance until your healers aren't stressed out.

then stack DPS until you move on to the next tier of content to keep things interesting.

Stacking pure stamina has never been the only thing that's mattered. It's just what you do heading into a new tier of content to address the first point.

Satorri
11-05-2009, 09:03 AM
Everything about Clysm so far is just expectations and nice ideas, nothing has taken shape yet, and how Icecrown works in application will shape that, be sure.


People seem to want to think that Chill of the Thrown will change anything about what stats people pick up. Everyone will gear the same way, make the same choices, because none of the values have actually changed. It is only perception that is taking a big step. It may be that this leaves some people feeling less like they *have* to stack stamina endlessly, but in truth, none of our priorities have really changed, it will only change the way it feels.

Adrael
11-06-2009, 08:13 AM
You only present one side and so miss the point.

In a fight you can see 80% avoidance. The tricky thing about avoidance is that it is not static on every hit, which is why many people have shunned it, for fear of the RNG.

It averages out in the end, but it can be a range of effect on short fights.

As an example, when Naxx was fresh content and I was an Unholy DK tanking Hatefuls on Patchwerk, I had a fight where I avoided 78% of his attacks, I had Bone Shield up nearly 100% of the fight because he never chewed through charges before the CD was finished.

The point of all of this is that Chill of the Throne does nothing severe enough to diminish the value of avoidance, and largely I think the sheeple portion of the community has overblown ideas about avoidance being a poor survival value already.

Maybe I should've been more clear, but what I said was that avoidance is more reliable on faster small chunk hitters. I never said it was 'better' in mitigating. The thing is that being on the good side of the variance isn't a problem (usually results in more overheal), it's the bad side that really counts. The smaller chunks you get, the less influence avoidance variance has, and the faster the boss hits, the sooner proper avoidance values appear on the combat log.

More reliable avoidance means it's less likely to save you but it's also less likely to kill you. Interestingly, this is the same effect CotT has. It lowers the mitigation from avoidance so tanks are less dependent on it. It's also less likely to kill, or save a tank.

Avoidance has a cap that varies for encounters and healers. A tank needs to have enough avoidance to enable a decent gap between DPS and HPS intake. Too much avoidance over EH is never a good thing.

All that said, avoidance is a VERY important stat as the fight progresses, since it directly effects DPS taken by the tank. If the DPS taken is too close to the healer's HPS the tank dies.

Satorri
11-06-2009, 08:18 AM
Actually, I think this is a case of perception mistakenly flavoring statistics. It seems like it should, and it makes sense in a way, but in reality, it's no different. Hard to explain that though.

Phillycheese
11-07-2009, 11:44 PM
Good post. however, anyone who hasn't figured out this simply logic already is a moron. A bunch of the people complaining are idiots who can only see the "20% LESS AVOIDANCE OMG SCREW YOU BLIZZARD" part of it, and blindly ignoring the part where the bosses do less damage per hit.

Nephelai
11-08-2009, 09:56 AM
Chill of the Thrown


lol... I really like that typo. Maybe it should be added as a boss special in Icecrown. Jiggowatt the Inventor Blasts TANK with his Chill of the Thrown Ice Ray Cannon (Followed by TANK flying up against the wall and being frozen to it Han Solo style for 5 seconds??).

Reev
11-08-2009, 06:08 PM
Good post. however, anyone who hasn't figured out this simply logic already is a moron. A bunch of the people complaining are idiots who can only see the "20% LESS AVOIDANCE OMG SCREW YOU BLIZZARD" part of it, and blindly ignoring the part where the bosses do less damage per hit.

Philly, please tone back your rhetoric. If you want to call people morons, go to the official blizzard forums. We're trying to help people understand things here, not make them feel stupid for not understanding them before they were told.

Edgewalker
11-09-2009, 10:14 AM
All that said, avoidance is a VERY important stat as the fight progresses, since it directly effects DPS taken by the tank. If the DPS taken is too close to the healer's HPS the tank dies.

I'd still like to see this mythical encounter where steady DPS kills the tank and not single large spikes of damage. There are a lot of mathematical references too it, but sadly I think it's a figment of the theoretician's imagination.

Libicocco
11-09-2009, 01:18 PM
I doubt you'd see tank deaths as a result from Edge's mythical steady yet large incoming DPS boss anyway. I think in this scenario, since you can't go from 100 -> 0 without many intervening steps, groups would have success throwing more healers at it until the problem was fixed. Bliz would have to have a strict enrage timer to enforce bringing a minimum amount of DPS.

What you'd actually see are complaints along the lines of "ZOMG how can we POSSIBLY beat Boss X before he enrages while we have to bring 10 healers to heal through his Ultra X-Smite?"

It'd be nifty, but I think that sort of thing would be more interpreted as a DPS challenge - and those have a way of disappearing as gear increases.

Satorri
11-10-2009, 05:43 AM
Steady consistent damage on the low end won't happen because it is too easy and to uninteresting to heal.

That said, they can and do find different ways to make it interesting with encounter mechanics and boss moves. They've also suggested that they don't want tank healing to be an all-on-all-the-time thing, where the tank has dedicate spammed heals constantly to keep them alive.

The idea is to resurrect some of the mana considerations of BC without the burst damage potential of crushing blows to mess up conscientious healing. They said point blank, they would like the tanks to be able to survive a while so healers can tend to other concerns and come back to the tank as needed. I take this to mean lower avoidance, more consistent unpredictable damage (i.e. no crushing blows, crits, and 40k per hit bosses are not the norm), and more raid damage and interesting encounter design. They've definitely stepped up their game over the years on the last part.

Karasu
11-17-2009, 09:31 PM
Your reasoning is fine, and easy to understand.

And yes, i agree, it seems a way to bring back wow tanking / healing to what it was pre-bc when the concept of spamming overheals was actually something wrong.

Yes.. they have tried different ways of reduce the impact of high avoidance rates, related to healing. Vezax is a good example, you have to watch your mana bar.

And they have also tried to mix different kinds of damage (frost, fire, shadow,etc) to the basic boss spanking the tank.

Thats fine. Nevertheless, and i would like you to think wow is not an in developement product, its not an optimal solution. Its just throwing a patch on broken stuff.

I think most of veteran players already when the BC came tought wtf is wrong with blizzard and the new items stats. There was a real big gap. And they made the mistake of making this gap wider. So yes, this need to be fixed. Ok, bravo, they fixed it this way. But reccon that this is cutre (from spanish, roughly meaning shabby).

Game mechanics are the base of our game. You can add nice desings and cool effects.. light or sound, whatever. But a game thats being out there 4+ years should not be loosing balance at this point.

Next thing you can expect is .. dps is too high.. lets add a -20% hit aura. Now that would be cutre.

Synapse
11-18-2009, 03:14 AM
Too high dps can be solved by more hp.

The long-term solution to too much avoidance doesn't look like it can be much different than "let's give bosses expertise", even with cat's drop. It's a fine one as long as it's done on a seamless manner instead of "oops, 20% less dodge".

Adrael
11-18-2009, 07:12 AM
I'd still like to see this mythical encounter where steady DPS kills the tank and not single large spikes of damage. There are a lot of mathematical references too it, but sadly I think it's a figment of the theoretician's imagination.

You're absolutely right. Tanks with proper gear (av>40%?) don't just get burn down by steady damage.

And that's why we don't usually aim to get more avoidance. But like I said, avoidance is important since without it tanks would die. Just stating the obvious, which is kinda silly - I know.

GC often say the same regarding avoidance, and it always sounds as if he misunderstands the community's pov, or maybe the community misses his.

Having ~50-60% avoidance IS important over having 0% avoidance (ye, I know. I feel like just writing this sentence lowers my IQ by quite a bit).

Ridiculously high avoidance levels in relation with DPS intake is plain redundancy. The latter reflects current avoidance mechanics better, and that's why they change it.

Bovinity
11-18-2009, 07:13 AM
Having ~50-60% avoidance IS important over having 0% avoidance (ye, I know. I feel like just writing this sentence lowers my IQ by quite a bit).

The funny thing is though, if avoidance were removed tomorrow and boss damage tweaked to compensate, tanking and healing would become enormously trivial.

The very existance of avoidance is a detriment! =D

Satorri
11-18-2009, 08:09 AM
All elements exist in a balance.

Usually criticisms of the system come from misunderstanding the elements and how they are used and counter-pointed.

Consider for a second that Blizz has been 7 years in developing this game, and 5 of them with millions of people play testing it.


I'd amend one common statement:
"Damage spikes kill tanks, not consistent damage intake."

I would say, 'surprise' damage kills tanks. If damage is constant, predictable, and consistent, like Bovinity said, tanking and tank healing become trivial. You could just have NPC's do it so players can do something more interesting. Spikes of damage won't necessarily kill the tank unless the tank doesn't have enough health for the encounter, or the balance is off (rare if it is live). If a tank dies to expected damage, the system is broken or the healers/tanks are somehow insufficient. Surprise stacks of damage taken (i.e. Gormok aligning melee with Impale) will kill a tank, and it's a failing in the system *if* it cannot be prevented or countered through strategy and healer skill.

Avoidance allows tanks to take less damage and keep things interesting for tank healing in the process. Avoidance itself does not make spikes bigger, it never increases damage taken, only reduces. But, this whole thread was aimed at illustrating how avoidance going too high can mess up other elements in the balance and make it less fun to play because the tank can be killed without the healers being able to stop it.

Edgewalker
11-18-2009, 11:38 AM
The problem is still game design. For virtually every boss fight, if you could trade every ounce of avoidance into armor, resist, and stamina, you would, and healers would thank you.

I also fail to see how avoidance makes tank healing any different. Healers spam, nonstop. There is no reactive healing, no heal cancellation. Bosses need to hit for about 1/3rd their current amount and mana needs to become an issue before that changes.

Airowird
11-18-2009, 04:23 PM
The problem is still game design. For virtually every boss fight, if you could trade every ounce of avoidance into armor, resist, and stamina, you would, and healers would thank you.

I also fail to see how avoidance makes tank healing any different. Healers spam, nonstop. There is no reactive healing, no heal cancellation. Bosses need to hit for about 1/3rd their current amount and mana needs to become an issue before that changes.It makes a difference because not every heal is a crit. Although Paladins are well on their way getting there tbh >_>

MudNova
11-18-2009, 07:32 PM
Do you guys think that if they do that bosses hitting more often, less harder, and more avoidable attacks... Block could be really useful again?? like "avoidance tanks" usable

Adrael
11-19-2009, 01:12 AM
It got longer than I had expected, but what the hell. This is what happens when you're sitting in a hospital bed and miss WoW.

MudNova:I would say block will have a greater influence, but I don't know what you mean by ""avoidance tanks" usable". If you take a 3.2 pie chart that describes your mitigation, and compare it with a future 3.3 chart, I believe you'll see a greater chunk of block related mitigation on the latter.

In my opinion there are two reasons for this, one of which you mentioned, so I'll start with the other. The role of avoidance in mitigating damage will decrease, while block keeps on scalling relative to content. Furthermore, since boss damage on hit would be decreased (again - relative to content), and shield block chances&values are to go up with ICC gear. So basically, we're looking on two effects that are likely to increase the usefulness of blocks. However, the effect can very well be so minor that gear and enchants related stats decisions will remain as they currently are.

Edgewalker: In a plain mathematical theory, avoidance shouldn't make any difference if you reach a certain cap which varries for encoutners, tanks and healers [this is not the avoidance cap I mentioned earlier - it's a 'softer' cap]. Healers constantly spam heal the tanks, and from a certain level of avoidance it will look as if every extra % in dodge/parry becomes extra overheal, and thus being ineffective.


Avoidance works on probability, and so do people.

The arguments written in the paragraph above don't take into account those psychological factors in situations of uncertainty, which greatly effect us all in our daily lives, and here in WoW. A tank will be low on HP when the conditions are right even in relatively easier content. Those situations in which there's an unforeseen damage spike or a healing deficiency, is where that extra dodge/parry might come in handy and keep your HP on a non-critical level. Bare in mind that if we take that extra dodge and turn it for 5k HP, the same tank in the same situation would get to a critical HP level, a scenario that could have been prevented by that extra dodge. Off course minor damage spikes and minor healing deficiencies happen all the time and you cannot rely on avoidance to eliminate those situations, but the probability of these situations and their level of threat on the tank varies for encounters, healers and tanks. When a tank gets critical it's in a danger of dying, no matter how good the healers/tank are. If this happens, cooldowns are used, and every bit of luck could matter (Avoidance anyone?).

Probability Matters
If your HP gets too low and too many times, psychology kicks in. Healers (and tanks) who feel that their tank (themselves?) gets too low, too many times, will have a more liberal criteria on when to throw in CDs, which increases their chance of effectively blowing those CDs away so by the next time they need it, it won't be there to keep the tank alive. Furthermore, healers with not trust in their tank will tend to get frustrated and thus underperform. Those critical situations happen all the time, but it's a matter of probability. The more it happens, the more likely it is to have a negative effect on the tank and healers.

It's not that avoidance is more or less important than EH. It's just that it's different. Don't talk ill of avoidance, though you'll rarely find me gemming/enchanting for it.

One more word about uncertainty: this is what makes us all hooked on WoW (not only avoidance, but also those constant content and game mechanics tweaks).

Xianth
11-19-2009, 04:38 AM
Do you guys think that if they do that bosses hitting more often, less harder, and more avoidable attacks... Block could be really useful again?? like "avoidance tanks" usable


As much as i'd like it to, from what i gathered the icecrown bosses would hit for similar amount but obviously they'd be hitting you more often to increase the avergae incoming damage on a tank. So in 25 man/10 man hard I doubt it would be realistic to reach a high enough level of SBR/SBV to make it truly viable. And well, if you're avoiding less then you have a bigger "gap" to fill up with SBR which makes it even less do-able. It may be possible to have a decent blocky set (not gung ho all out block, just a nice baalnce) in 10 man normals but that's not going to be a major concern of 99% of people who think deeply enough into their gear to balance such a set. why balance a nice block set when you can go in there with 60k HP and just brute force it without any difficulty anyway?

Satorri
11-19-2009, 06:07 AM
The problem is still game design. For virtually every boss fight, if you could trade every ounce of avoidance into armor, resist, and stamina, you would, and healers would thank you.

I also fail to see how avoidance makes tank healing any different. Healers spam, nonstop. There is no reactive healing, no heal cancellation. Bosses need to hit for about 1/3rd their current amount and mana needs to become an issue before that changes.

That has not been my experience as a healer, and my healers like that I don't take constant damage. We've had this discussion.

Right now your healers may spam heal you, but that you don't take a hit on every swing allows them room for when they can't spam on you, like when they're moving out of the fire.


I know you think it's a good idea, and I *wish* you could see what it's like if you got your wish so you could understand why it is not a good direction for the game, at all.

MAXDUCK
11-19-2009, 11:21 PM
I created a Tankspot account because Chill of the Throne has been bothering me so much lately and I can't seem to find anything on this subject anywhere else. I tanked all of Sunwell and I dealt with the radiance by stacking the best avoidance pieces with dodge gems. I did this because of some formula (that I can't find) that showed avoidance vs. EH and which was was more important at what avoidance/EH levels.

Once ToGC becomes obsolete and we're into hardmodes I'm probably going to go back to this system of gemming, but possibly a little less extremely.

What I was wondering though, was how does Chill of the Throne interact with Dodge DRs? I don't want to look like an idiot to my many grasshoppers on my server and I certainly don't want to let down my guild by being massacred in ICC for having lower HP than I did in TOGC.

KnThrak
11-20-2009, 01:34 AM
It doesn't interact. If you had 32% dodge for DR before Chill of the Throne, then you'll still have 32% dodge DR after CotT (and effectively only 12% dodge).

And I agree with Satorri, if tanks couldn't avoid we healers could never ever move from a fire. Yes it's praying while running, so that the tank won't take 3 unavoided hits in a row. Part of the reason why the high bossdamage we have now is so bleh from a healerperspective.

MAXDUCK
11-20-2009, 02:00 AM
It doesn't interact. If you had 32% dodge for DR before Chill of the Throne, then you'll still have 32% dodge DR after CotT (and effectively only 12% dodge).


Well if thats the case anyone gemming dodge would be stacking dodge for less and less potency and not even seeing the returns they'd get if they had less than ~10% dodge from gear when the DRs start to kick in.

What I'm reading is that gemming dodge in order to compensate for Chill of the Throne wouldn't put you effectively at 12% dodge if you had 32% on your character sheet to begin with. It would be adjusted for the DRs and leave you with less, which is kind of silly.

KnThrak
11-20-2009, 05:03 AM
Well it's as simple as taking your entire dodge (without Chill of the Throne) and taking 20% off it.

However as Satorri said in the OP, you do not actually end up being more squishy. Yes, the tank will take ~15%-20% more damage due to there being a new raid-tier. But he won't take more damage as a direct result of CotT, because it will be figured into the damage-per-hit. In other words if you were to apply Chill of the Crusader (^_^) to ToC, the tanks would not have higher incoming DPST.

tribute
11-26-2009, 05:00 AM
don't think it's a bad thing either...


Just that mechanic from runic strike is concerning me then.
As a DK-Tank I'm a little worried if that could outclass me in threat terms...because my experiences are, that without my runic strike I can't hold aggro, and some of my DDs are just a little shot under me, regardless which encounter. And I personally don't want to be overgeared as hell, to be able to manage holding threat... :-/

Satorri
11-26-2009, 05:18 AM
Tribute, it should be a relatively small loss of threat, and if I was seeing right, the most recent push on the PTR bumped the threat scaling on RS a little to counter this.

Bodasafa
12-04-2009, 09:21 AM
Excellent information. Thank you to the OP for the well written explanation on this subject.

Willis
12-09-2009, 11:20 AM
Thanks for taking the time to type all that out. People who are extremely against such an effect take the time to experience it from a healing perspective too. Many fights with people over "healers do your job" when the fact simply was nothing can be done, it just happens.

Here's my question, and forgive me if it's been asked twenty times over.. Does this emphasize on Parry? At least for a Death Knight Tank? Come to think of it.. if a normal HIT on a tank was 10,000.. a dodge is 0, what becomes of a parry?

Reev
12-09-2009, 11:49 AM
Thanks for taking the time to type all that out. People who are extremely against such an effect take the time to experience it from a healing perspective too. Many fights with people over "healers do your job" when the fact simply was nothing can be done, it just happens.

Here's my question, and forgive me if it's been asked twenty times over.. Does this emphasize on Parry? At least for a Death Knight Tank? Come to think of it.. if a normal HIT on a tank was 10,000.. a dodge is 0, what becomes of a parry?

A parry is also 0.

Synapse
12-09-2009, 12:00 PM
The value of parry over dodge does not change at all. The gains of adding avoidance are not affected by the Icecrown Radiance.

Reev
12-09-2009, 09:28 PM
So I rather enjoyed in ICC 25 man tonight having Marrowgar hitting me for 12-15k. Such a breath of fresh air after Gormok.

Madoxx
12-10-2009, 12:40 AM
So I rather enjoyed in ICC 25 man tonight having Marrowgar hitting me for 12-15k. Such a breath of fresh air after Gormok.


Was that in 25 man ? my healers could not keep my up in 10 man when i was MTing taking way to much damage getting hit most of the time for 12-19k 4 times in 2secs . How are other Death knights finding this i was looking forward to ICC and still am the bits we have not cleared in 25?

Last night had be a bit stumped though we had to get a lesser geared Warrior to MT the 10 man we did after the 25 man as i was dieing way to fast in the 10man when MTing.

Vah
12-10-2009, 05:46 AM
Was that in 25 man ? my healers could not keep my up in 10 man when i was MTing taking way to much damage getting hit most of the time for 12-19k 4 times in 2secs . How are other Death knights finding this i was looking forward to ICC and still am the bits we have not cleared in 25?

Last night had be a bit stumped though we had to get a lesser geared Warrior to MT the 10 man we did after the 25 man as i was dieing way to fast in the 10man when MTing.


The drop-down to view your characters isn't working for me, could you provide your armory link?

Satorri
12-10-2009, 06:06 AM
I, too, enjoyed the feeling of ICC.

Things were hitting hard enough that it still felt like healing was really needed, if not immediately urgent to never miss a GCD, but at the same time, my health wasn't rocketing full to empty full to empty, not even half and back.

Reev
12-10-2009, 06:12 AM
Was that in 25 man ? my healers could not keep my up in 10 man when i was MTing taking way to much damage getting hit most of the time for 12-19k 4 times in 2secs . How are other Death knights finding this i was looking forward to ICC and still am the bits we have not cleared in 25?

Last night had be a bit stumped though we had to get a lesser geared Warrior to MT the 10 man we did after the 25 man as i was dieing way to fast in the 10man when MTing.

Yes it was on 25 man. On one of my death logs, I saw him hit me 4 times in a row between 15.5k and 12.2k (Some blocked) damage. Were you using Armor Potions? I was in there with 38.8k armor (almost as much as our bear druid! ^.^) while my potion was up, which was most of the fight. Also, did you have 2 tanks (for your 10 man) standing on top of each other to eat the Saberlash?

Emi
12-10-2009, 06:36 AM
I also enjoyed ICC. Finally a "proper" raid instance :D

Healthwise i always felt very comfortable, not a care in the world really. As for TPS i was pleasantly surprised considering i was so worried about the 20% dodge loss.

Madoxx
12-10-2009, 06:46 AM
Yes it was on 25 man. On one of my death logs, I saw him hit me 4 times in a row between 15.5k and 12.2k (Some blocked) damage. Were you using Armor Potions? I was in there with 38.8k armor (almost as much as our bear druid! ^.^) while my potion was up, which was most of the fight. Also, did you have 2 tanks (for your 10 man) standing on top of each other to eat the Saberlash?

yes i was using Armour potions on that fight and others on 10 man we used 2 tanks and weirdly enough he got no hits on the first 4 hits yet was standing right on top of me at the time .

We switched and he was about to soak the dame allot easier then the Death knight (me) . again it is possible it was maybe lag or something but my healers were saying they were finding it very hard to heal me through the entire instance.

Id like to see if there are ways around this but more then that how other Death Knights tank and felt they were taking the damage inc vs other tanking classes , looking at combat i didn't dodge once in most fight just parry.

Satorri
12-10-2009, 06:50 AM
I was still rocking about 10% dodge with raid buffs, so it happened, just less often than parries.

We saw no real difference between healing myself or my Prot warrior counterpart.

Madoxx
12-10-2009, 07:18 AM
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-achievements.xml?r=Twisting+Nether&cn=Thorug&gn=IX) There ya go Vah my armoury link.

Satorri i was @ 10% dodge buffed too in there but didn't notice too many if any dodges ill have a look over the combat logs , again i like the instance but i just felt my health was getting hammered at times maybe it is just getting used to it compared to the other instances.

Satorri
12-10-2009, 07:34 AM
Saberlash feels good and stingy.

Spammed 12k ouchies, and 24k if the tanks get too far apart.

Theotherone
12-10-2009, 07:50 AM
Note: the incoming damage is the same in overall scale, but each hit will actually be smaller than the previous tier. That means, to healers, you'll still be getting hit harder than ever before in total, but your whole health pool won't be flipping on and off like a light switch to get that increase. What really changed? You will take more hits, but any given hit will be smaller. This means you move away from the danger of "miss a heal and the tank dies" or "the tank took critical damage in less time than it takes to cast a heal because 2 effects lined up at the same time." You still take more damage, more healing is still required, but suddenly the tanking/healing game is fun again, instead of walking a razor's edge between life and death.



I recall either a GC post or an interview to the effect that Blizz not thrilled with the all the 95% - 5% spike damage and that they were looking for a way to smooth the damage. Based on your numbers Chill of the Throne appears to bear this out.

Synapse
12-10-2009, 07:54 AM
Theo, they repeat that phrase almost every other week since patch 2.4

Theotherone
12-10-2009, 08:25 AM
Theo, they repeat that phrase almost every other week since patch 2.4

Yeah, but now they appear to be moving it along; not making it worse. And, more importantly, you have verified that my memory is still functioning.

Aradril
12-10-2009, 08:52 AM
/agree with Satorri

Rackz
12-10-2009, 08:09 PM
While unfortunatly I was late for tonights raid, while listening in to my guild on vent it appears that the fights have a lot of movement. I enjoy high movment fights, these require a bit of skill instead of just stand and beat on a target. With this I would then assume that healers themselves would be required to make quite a bit of movment as well so this does allow for the tank to take another hit or two before requiring a heal as well. Would there be an agreeance here?