PDA

View Full Version : TOGC 25 Beasts Heroic



Rikimaru
11-02-2009, 01:17 PM
Hi all ..

I have a problem with this boss on heroic difficult.

In fight with this boss...he hit me suddenly very hard 32 000 physical dmg and 25 over kill....and i get a IK...i using on the second taunt - Last stand and potion on armor....but maybe it isnt enough or i dont know why?...

Here is my Armor profile: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Drak%27thul&n=Masar)

Pls can you help me where is the mistake?

Stompya
11-02-2009, 01:23 PM
how many stacks are you tanking it for?

Ideally you need 3 tanks to do a 2 stack rotation, and pop cooldowns right before the second impale hits.

Rikimaru
11-02-2009, 01:28 PM
we do it on 2 stacks ...with 2 tanks 5 heals...because we have weakly dps

Griff
11-02-2009, 01:35 PM
You should be fine with your gear. Make sure you have cooldowns going for the impales. Use indestructable potions - one right before the pull and one when it wears off.

Shield wall is better than last stand if you're dying alot.

Also, the brewfest trinket has a lot of stam but there are better choices - do ulduar until you get the Heart of Iron, the use effect will help.

Draks
11-02-2009, 01:51 PM
we do it on 2 stacks ...with 2 tanks 5 heals...because we have weakly dps

With only 2 tanks, and that quick of a rotation, I seriously doubt that stacks are clearing off of you or the other tank. You should not taunt back until the stacks have completely fallen off.

Squirrelnut
11-02-2009, 01:56 PM
I believe in 10m Gormok's imaple stacks last for 30 seconds while in 25m they last for 45 seconds. Thus it is easy to 2 tank 10m switching after 2 impales each but on 25m you either use 3 tanks or take more then 2 impales each.

Aggathon
11-02-2009, 02:43 PM
I believe in 10m Gormok's imaple stacks last for 30 seconds while in 25m they last for 50 seconds. Thus it is easy to 2 tank 10m switching after 2 impales each but on 25m you either use 3 tanks or take more then 2 impales each.

In 10 man with 2 tanks it is 3 stacks because the debuff lasts 36 seconds and each imaple is 12 seconds. If you time it just right you can just barely shieldwall 2 of them (I tested this out the other night). So ya if in 10 man you're doing a 2 stack 2 taunt rotation you're overlapping impales and that could be why you're getting hit so hard, but cooldowns are a must. Even in 10 man I did a group where our dps was still good enough but not as good as my usual group and I didn't shield wall the last impale and it 1 shot me. I got ressed and we still won, but even with 52khps and 32k armor, it can still one shot you if you are taking a 3rd impale and the boss has 4 stacks of his buff up.

As far as gear, gemming/enchanting looks fairly good, there's only a few things I whould change:

1) Switch your red/blue gem from your neck to your legs, this is a 3 stam increase, though not a huge deal, otherwise gemming looks perfect
2) Change your shoulder enchant to 30stam/15 resil
3) Change cloak to 225 armor, your armor is pretty low so this will be an effective enchant for you, 22 agi is pretty meh after the nerfs.
4) Optional: 240 armor to gloves. I would prefer this over stam, but I'd run it through an EH calculator with your gear (fully buffed) to see if it is really better or not. Usually it comes out ahead.

But tbh your gear/hps looks like enough to tank this fight, you've just really got to shield wall those last impales.

However: I would also HIGHLY recommend changing your spec. Unbridled Wrath is a terrible talent. If you want to go a "survivability spec" (which frankly if you have other classes that put up the debuffs like paladins and druids then I'd argue you don't need) then I'd say go Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LVZGV00xZVItrx0zidczsGo:drcomM) making sure to keep up commanding, tclap, and demo shout, they do help if you don't have other classes that can put up those buffs/debuffs (which is far more likely in 10 man than 25).**
Otherwise I'd suggest going for a more balanced spec between threat and survival: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LAM00fZhZMItrx0didIzsGo:drTomM) This spec allows you to pick up 2 min shield wall since there's really no need for threat glyphs since impale/deep wounds is absurd for threat.

**Edit: just a note with this spec, you can drop 2 points in imp revenge and put them in imp diciplines or focused rage since devestate is better threat than revenge if you glyph for devestate, even spec'd into revenge, I like it for the utility stun and low rage attack if you're getting rage starved.

tuffmuffin
11-02-2009, 03:19 PM
In 10 man with 2 tanks it is 3 stacks because the debuff lasts 36 seconds and each imaple is 12 seconds. If you time it just right you can just barely shieldwall 2 of them (I tested this out the other night). So ya if in 10 man you're doing a 2 stack 2 taunt rotation you're overlapping impales and that could be why you're getting hit so hard, but cooldowns are a must.
No.
The debuff in 10-man ALWAYS lasts 30 seconds.
Impale - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=66331) (Normal)
Impale - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=67478) (Heroic)

Done properly, you should never get 3 stacks of the debuff in 10-man.
The "overlap" is that the tank that is taunting will still have a few seconds left on his debuff when the other tank gets his second stack.
It will fall off before you get hit by Impale again, and this is exactly how my group does it each week.

On 25-man, on the other hand, the debuff lasts longer which is why 3 tanks is required if you only let the debuff stack to 2, which is exactly what Squirrelnut said, which is exactly right.
Impale - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=67477) (Normal)
Impale - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=67479) (Heroic)
Using two tanks on 25-man, you must take a minimum of 3 stacks each to allow it to fall off.

Relearn the fight please.

Aggathon
11-02-2009, 03:51 PM
I timed it the other night, the exact impale timer difference is 12 seconds, even if the debuff lasts 30 seconds, that's still 3 impales unless the debuff is down to 24 seconds. Even if the impale timer is 10 like it is in 25 man, then that's still 3 stacks, so either way I'm right. Sounds like you need to DO the fight.

Edit: maybe you are listing alt armories, but it seems pretty presumptuous to tell someone they need to learn the fight when you're a fresh 80 tank and the person giving the advice has run all versions of ToC 'till he's blue in the face and has full cleared it all with trib to insanity in 10 man. It's just rude man.

Squirrelnut
11-02-2009, 04:11 PM
On 10man we have always done Heroic with 2 tanks taking 2 stacks each (taunt when 25 seconds left after the 2nd impale) and never had an overlap causing 3 stacks. As tuffmuffin said the only overlap is having the tank swap take place prior to your stacks wearing off completely however they do wear off before the next impale.

(We have gotten 50 attempts left 10m heroic and downed it on 25m heroic, am I allowed to post? <3)

Aggathon
11-02-2009, 04:18 PM
On 10man we have always done Heroic with 2 tanks taking 2 stacks each (taunt when 25 seconds left after the 2nd impale) and never had an overlap causing 3 stacks. As tuffmuffin said the only overlap is having the tank swap take place prior to your stacks wearing off however they do wear of before the next impale.

Oh... I think I get what you're saying now. Since the impale timer is 12 seconds it goes like


0:00 Engage
0:12 Impale 1 tank 1
0:24 Imaple 2 tank 2
0:30 Taunt 1
0:36 Impale 1 tank 2, 18 seconds left on impale tank 1
0:48 Imaple 2 tank 2, 6 seconds left on impale tank 1
0:49 Taunt 2
0:54 Imaple tank 1 runs out
0:60 Impale 1 tank 1

If you don't do an early taunt then it would throw off the timers I guess, we've always done it 3 impales, gives us plenty of breathing room esp if a taunt misses, and there shouldn't be a problem with it.

Thanks for being civil Squirrel.

Aggathon
11-02-2009, 04:23 PM
Lulz, it's a moot point anyways, the thread is TOGC 25 Heroic, so they were right in their original analysis that if they're doing 2 tanks with 2 stacks it would overlap.

Maybe I'm getting old.

Edit: something still isn't adding up, I'm talking to the guy I tank the fight with and we always taunt exactly when our stacks run off and the other person is always at 3 stacks, something isn't right here, what am I missing?

tuffmuffin
11-02-2009, 10:46 PM
Sounds like you need to DO the fight.

Edit: maybe you are listing alt armories, but it seems pretty presumptuous to tell someone they need to learn the fight when you're a fresh 80 tank and the person giving the advice has run all versions of ToC 'till he's blue in the face and has full cleared it all with trib to insanity in 10 man. It's just rude man.
And it's not presumptuous of you to say I'm a fresh 80 that needs to do the fight in general?

You were giving bad information and I called you on it, albeit for the 10-man version and off topic as per the thread.
Pulling out your epeen to qualify your right to post and discount mine is just as rude.
So I only have Tribute to Mad Skill in my 10s group and haven't cleared 25-heroic yet, forgive me for being a bad.

Yes, those are alts I have listed. Does it hurt my credibility? Sure, to someone that can't trust something he can't see for himself.
My background and who I really am shouldn't be important to you.


I timed it the other night, the exact impale timer difference is 12 seconds, even if the debuff lasts 30 seconds, that's still 3 impales unless the debuff is down to 24 seconds.
I'll assume from your next post that you figured out why this sentence is wrong, although your last post isn't that reassuring.
Either way, it doesn't really matter if you take 2 or 3 stacks in the 10-man version.

Aggathon
11-03-2009, 12:24 AM
There's a lot of things I could say to rebuttal, however, I'd simply ask that you keep your statements more to the facts and leave out any ad hominem remarks and be more respectful in general, and I will try to do the same. There's no need to turn a help thread into a flame war because we use two different strategies that are both met with the same success, especially when said difference isn't even on topic.

tuffmuffin
11-03-2009, 12:47 AM
Fair enough.
Our differences are settled and faults acknowledged.

Xianth
11-03-2009, 02:08 AM
In 10 man with 2 tanks it is 3 stacks because the debuff lasts 36 seconds and each imaple is 12 seconds. If you time it just right you can just barely shieldwall 2 of them (I tested this out the other night). So ya if in 10 man you're doing a 2 stack 2 taunt rotation you're overlapping impales and that could be why you're getting hit so hard, but cooldowns are a must. Even in 10 man I did a group where our dps was still good enough but not as good as my usual group and I didn't shield wall the last impale and it 1 shot me. I got ressed and we still won, but even with 52khps and 32k armor, it can still one shot you if you are taking a 3rd impale and the boss has 4 stacks of his buff up.



In 10 man you only get 2 stacks with a 2 tank rotation, the stack falls off about 2 seconds before the new impale (which is awesome for timing your SW to cover two impales). The advice still stands though re: CD use, even in 10 man you can still be "one shot" in good gear by the final set of impales if you don't use CDs.

Edit: as this has already been covered, ignore my post :p

swelt
11-03-2009, 04:17 AM
Getting back to the question...


Hi all ..

I have a problem with this boss on heroic difficult.

In fight with this boss...he hit me suddenly very hard 32 000 physical dmg and 25 over kill....and i get a IK...i using on the second taunt - Last stand and potion on armor....but maybe it isnt enough or i dont know why?...

Here is my Armor profile: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Drak%27thul&n=Masar)

Pls can you help me where is the mistake?

I'll say for starters that I think your build is poor, but that it's not the reason that you are struggling. You aren't missing any key mitigation talents. Your gear looks fine.

That means the problem is probably either in your strategy or in your execution:
- Your strategy for surviving Gormokk needs to have a detailed plan for taking the impale hits. It's the impale hit that kills, not the dot component. It hits fairly hard at the start of the fight, but for each stack of Rising Anger that Gormokk gains from throwing out a snowbold, it get's significantly harder. By around the 9th impale, every impale needs to be countered by some kind of cooldown, with the strongest cooldowns saved for the final ones. This is all covered in the project marmot video guide, and in particular the addendum that covers a nice strat for two-tanking it: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f206/55199-coliseum-northrend-beasts-hard-mode.html There are also a wealth of threads on this encounter in the Colliseum strategy section of this forum: Crusaders Coliseum - TankSpot (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f218/)
- Your execution: do you have an improved AP reduction on the boss at all times (e.g. Vindication or talented demo shout / curse of weakness). Do you have inspiration/ancestral fortitude on the tanks? Are your healers using their cooldowns appropriately and healing the right tank at the right time? All this kinda stuff is critical too.

Mert
11-03-2009, 05:56 AM
I timed it the other night, the exact impale timer difference is 12 seconds, even if the debuff lasts 30 seconds, that's still 3 impales unless the debuff is down to 24 seconds. Even if the impale timer is 10 like it is in 25 man, then that's still 3 stacks, so either way I'm right. Sounds like you need to DO the fight.

The trick is to taunt while you still have the debuff on you - it will drop off just before you get the next imaple. To illustrate:

12 Seconds - Imaple 1 on MT
24 Seconds - Imaple 2 on MT
*TAUNT*
36 Seconds - Impale 1 on OT
48 Seconds - Impale 2 on OT
*TAUNT*
54 Seconds - Imaple drops off MT
60 Seconds - Impale 1 on MT
72 Seconds - Impale 2 on MT
etc

So yes, you have a 30 second duration which, assuming no lag and a perfect environment, gives you a clear six seconds between the debuff dropping off and you getting Impaled again (in reality it's more like 2-3 seconds due to latency, earlier missed taunts, whatever), meaning you should never get more than 2 stacks on 10-man ever unless something drastic happens (which is what Hand of Protection is for).

EDIT: Dammit Mert, read the whole thread before replying :P

Squirrelnut
11-03-2009, 07:45 AM
I think the OP's question has been answered:


Use 3 tanks or plan on more then 2 stacks
Use cooldowns efficiently (I prefer nothing/trinket for first couple, Last Stand / Enraged Regen for second couple, Shield Wall for last hardest couple with Shield Block up for all 3)
MUST have a cooldown up for later impales because you can get 1 shot no matter how good your gear (bad luck with rng causing impale/tick/melee can all hit at the same time and do a TON of damage).

However since the topic has broken off into a timing tangent I thought I would proceed since this would be nice to clarify :)

Some things to consider (using 10m as the example for timing purposes because you are likely just using 2 tanks whereas 25m many people use 3):


According to wowwiki there is 10sec between impales (Gormok the Impaler - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Gormok_the_Impaler)) however people here are saying it is 12 seconds between impales
I know for a fact that if you taunt tank swap after 2 impales the first tank's stacks wear off before having to tank again so you never go over 2 stacks
I also know for a fact that Shield Wall can easily cover 2 impales
If Shield Wall only lasts for 12 seconds (Shield Wall - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=871)) and he impales every 12 seconds I don't see how it could easily cover 2 without PERFECT timing. I always put up shield wall 1 - .5 second before the first impale and it always covers the second as well.
Are we all wrong and maybe it is 11 seconds between impales? lol any ideas?

Aggathon
11-03-2009, 08:07 AM
I'm pretty sure the impale timers are different for 10 and 25.**

Here's what happened the other night:

Attempt 1: (ended up wiping in phase 3 because a dps died in phase 2 and someone got hit in phase 3, bads)
I tank last impales, I take impale one, Imaple two starts coming, about 1 -1.5 seconds before I hit shield wall. Impale 3 comes, shield wall drops about 1-1.5 seconds before the impale, I don't hit LS in time, I get 1 shot.

Attempt 2: (kill)
I tank last impales again, I eat impale one, Impale 2 comes, I hit shield wall right as the timer comes and I clip it just barely and get the SW in, I hit LS to be sure the 3rd one doesn't kill me just incase but the shield wall stayed on and the 3rd impale hit me right as shield wall was fading and only hit me for like 17k or w/e instead of 1 shotting me.

Before these attempts I assumed it was 10 seconds too, which I think is why I died the first attempt. I overlap SW on 2 impales all the time in 25 man without any trouble at all, which is why it confused me a lot.

We're probably gonna do another 10 man group tomorrow night, and if I don't have to work I'll get in it and report back on my findings. I could be very wrong, but I'm 95% sure that's what happened.

**Edit: as far as the buff duration -> stacks falling off I conceed it can be done with 2 in 10 man.

Squirrelnut
11-04-2009, 07:53 AM
I always throw Shield Wall up about half a second before an impale hits and it ALWAYS covers the 2nd one. This includes 10m normal, 10m heroic, 25m normal, 25m heroic so I tend to think the timing is not different. The only real difference is the stack duration: 30sec on 10m and 45sec on 25m.

I suppose I should pay more attention to it but considering I never have an issue if I use a cooldown half a second before an impale I have always just done that and stopped thinking about it lol