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Singiel
10-31-2009, 06:42 PM
My apology if this thread has already been posted by someone else, I haven't been playing WOW for a while. Just point me to the thread if there's one already, I couldn't find one. Note that I am writing this from a tanking viewpoint.

Seal of Command has recently been changed and it will hit up to 3 targets in total. It's in the retri tree, but since I spec for Crusade, it's a talent I can surely pick up.

When I realised that yesterday, I instantly thought that it would be a great tanking seal. Then I checked on WOWwiki to see when the change was made, and it confirmed it was while I wasn't playing (or I'd thought something was really wrong as I didn't notice it before). It also mentioned it as an AOE tanking (and DPS of course) seal, which is exactly what I thought as soon as I saw the tooltip.

My question is: What do I drop?

1 point off Vindication? (so down to 1/2 instead of 2/2?)
1 point off Conviction? (I already only have 3 points on it because 2 are in Vindication)

Raid composition: A couple of retri Paladins who are not specced into Vindication. I do wind up with warrior tanks and druids, but more often than not we don't tank the same things, so their Demo shout/roar won't benefit me. Which is why I am wary of simply dropping a point off Vindication.

1% less crit, i.e. going from 3/5 Conviction to 2/5 Conviction, also means a bit less threat but that seems something I could bargain for more AOE tanking. But I will be slightly nerfing my single target threat, like bosses.

On the other end, I already do good AOE tanking now, but the more the merrier, right?

Right now I am leaning towards dropping 1 point off Conviction. Any thoughts?

Karatheya
11-01-2009, 05:43 AM
Is it worth dropping 10 expertise to boost something that you already do well enough? Given the typical paladin tank itemization doing so could drop you below the expertise soft cap, making bosses able to dodge you. That will gimp your single/primary target threat, which is where you are far more likely to have DPS chasing close behind.

Do you currently have issues with dps pulling secondary targets off you? If not, then I'd say stick with the seal that Blizzard intended to be our tanking seal. The recent changes to ret were not to buff the prot tree.

Singiel
11-01-2009, 09:14 AM
I'd say stick with the seal that Blizzard intended to be our tanking seal.But it's Blizzard that changed Seal of Command to make it an AOE seal. And Blizzard also thinks of Seal of Righteousness as one of the tanking seals, and I never use it, I always use Vengeance. And it's what I will keep using on bosses, I might however switch for Seal of Command for AOE if worth it.

Do I have issues with mobs pulling off me? Not necessarily, but in fights like Thorim it does help to have that additional instant AOE damage skill.

For where expertise counts, the bosses, I'd be using Seal of Vengeance, so the glyph would have its effect. Single target threat would be slightly gimped if I dropped that 1% crit off Conviction. It wouldn't be influenced at all if I dropped that 1 point off Vindication. But I would mitigate a bit less. So that's the dilemma.

I never said I'll be using Seal of Command for single target. :)

Edit: SoC "procs" have higher damage of Seal of Righteousness by the way, the judgement damage of SoC is however lower.

Retinue
11-01-2009, 10:39 PM
Well, what if you were expertise soft capped (26), and were looking at it for single target threat?

Would corruption or command be better? Just looking at the tooltips, looks like command would win by 3%? (36% weapon damage for command, 33% for untalented / geared corruption).

Retinue
11-01-2009, 10:43 PM
Although, I completely spaced the DoT portion of corruption...

Singiel
11-02-2009, 03:41 AM
Well, yours is actually a good question. If you are soft capped with gear only which one is better? Yes, true you forgot to mention the tick, but SoC will proc with each and every weapon swing. What's faster? A tick every 3 seconds or a weapon swing? It would depend on your weapon swing, but is there a 1H with a 3 seconds speed? Nope. One thing to look at would be the tick's damage and the SoC proc damage. The other would be the judgements' damage. Is a judgement with 5 stacks of SoV higher than a judgement with SoC? I can't remember right now, but I think the 5 stacks SoV judgement was higher. I'll have to test threat and damage on that when I log back online.

So if you aren't capped, SoV would still be better single target threat if you have the glyph. If you are... most people would say SoV is still better. I want to test it before I say anything. But keep in mind that "soft cap" is a dodge cap. If you are soft capped, you are making sure you are not being dodged, but you are still being parried somewhat (depending on the boss). If you have your glyph on top of that cap, you will still have less chance to be parried than if you were using SoC.

Back to my original question, "is anyone using SoC for AOE tanking now?" I have been looking around several forums and I don't seem to be the only one under the impression that SoC is good AOE tanking. The people who have been speccing Crusade like me seem to have dropped 1 point off Conviction, like I thought.

Anyway I guess that answers my own question.

P.S. Not sure why "Although, I completely spaced the DoT portion of corruption..." is indicated as best answer, but anyway :P

jere
11-02-2009, 08:05 AM
For Single target DPS and threat, SoV is hands down the best seal for most situations. Check this thread: Maintankadin • View topic - Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work) (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?p=496598&rb_v=viewtopic#p496598)

You will find the following graph:
http://sites.google.com/site/theckhd/images/322_seals.png

It does a seal DPS breakdown for various talent specs. In each case, SoV wins hands down.

As a note, there are a lot of good TPS topics covered there. There might even be some AoE discussion as well. Check the first post in that thread for a Table of Contents.

As a personal note: SoC, even if better for AoE (don't remember off hand), isn't going to be so much better than SoV that you need to waste spending a talent point for it.

You should also find your answer about whether or not soft capping expertise affects those results. Some food for thought on that. Even soft capped on expertise, the SoV glyph is the best dps/tps glyph available behind the AS glyph. Soft capping expertise does not change that relationship at all.

EDIT: Just went back and checked the gear Theck used to get those graphs. Just from the gear alone, he had 270 expertise rating (32 expertise skill). That plus the glyph is 42 expertise skill. SoV was still better than SoComm after the expertise soft cap.

Singiel
11-02-2009, 08:17 AM
Awesome info, thanks!

And 2 manning heroic UK today, without SoC, told me I really don't need that extra AOE. On the other hand, it's ludicrous that a heroic can be cleared with a total party DPS of 3.4k... I hope heroics will go back to being heroic in Cataclysm.

jere
11-02-2009, 08:34 AM
Well in all fairness, when you first hit 80 in all your greens and blues, not everyone is able to put out a lot of dps. The average person isn't necessarily very good at DPS, so they have to balance the initial heroics with that in mind. The ToC heroic (and I imagine the IC heroics) requires some stricter gear requirements.

Roana
11-02-2009, 08:57 AM
And 2 manning heroic UK today, without SoC, told me I really don't need that extra AOE. On the other hand, it's ludicrous that a heroic can be cleared with a total party DPS of 3.4k... I hope heroics will go back to being heroic in Cataclysm.

Heroics are easy for you now because gear progression has spiraled out of proportion. See this EJ thread (http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t36969-wotlk_heroics_thread/) for the initial impressions that people had of the WotLK heroics when they came out. Check the armory of the initial poster who wrote "[t]hey're a refreshing challenge once again" if you think he doesn't know what he's talking about.

People were doing heroics with 2-3 players at the end of TBC, too, for what it's worth (I distinctly remember seeing a three-player heroic Shattered Halls video on youtube, and I would be surprised if there weren't some enterprising souls duoing heroic Mechanar or Botanica). See also the famous/infamous video of doing three heroic Mechanar bosses at once:

YouTube - 3 Heroic Bosses at Once - Paladin Tank - World of Warcraft

Blizzard did try to avoid this back in TBC by limiting gear progression to a MUCH slower pace, but it didn't work, because players rejected potential gear upgrades left and right in Karazhan and the early raid instances, so they upped item levels. In WotLK, on top of a faster gear progression, they also introduced better gear for hard modes, which made the gear progression even more extreme.

Singiel
11-02-2009, 03:11 PM
We are not at the end of WOTLK though. And heroics in TBC were harder. You weren't supposed to do heroics as you just hit 80 and now you can. Old Kingdom is maybe the heroic that I felt was hard at the beginning. The rest didn't feel like a challenge.

Totc heroic feels a bit more like a heroic should be.

But let's compare that to Magister Terrace? :)