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View Full Version : Make or Break for DK Tank HALP



Squirrelnut
10-29-2009, 09:49 AM
I posted a few weeks back regarding our guild DK tank and got a lot of good input from different people to give him suggestions. Basically he was getting DESTROYED in 25m Heroic ToC and I got many tips from people which I passed along to him:
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f175/56687-dk-tank-getting-rolled-heroic-25m-toc-halp.html

Move ahead to last night... and the exact same problem exists.
Here is his armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ner%27zhul&n=Haros)
Now granted he still has 3 or 4 pieces of 232 gear but on the whole he is straight up ilvl 245 so I can't believe gear is the issue.

Our tanking approach:


3 Tanks (Me (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ner%27zhul&n=Squirrelnut), A new guild trial Prot Warrior (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ner%27zhul&n=Crackseed) (our main druid tank (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ner%27zhul&n=feenom) was gone most of the night), and the DK (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ner%27zhul&n=Haros)
2 Impale stacks each, taunt tank swap when 40 seconds left on 2 stacks
Tanking order: new guild tank first -> DK second -> Me third
This order allows me to be the one picking up Dreadscale as he comes out while the Prot Warrior trial tanks the last bit of Gormok

Basically our healers were complaining that our DK just gets wrecked despite the fact that Prot Warriors and DKs seem to be fairly similar tied for the worst survivability tank classes behind Pallys and Druids but even our new Warrior trial handled it fine.

Our new Prot Warrior is eager to learn and followed my example of cooldown use on Gormok:


Indestructible armor pot & trinket on first rotation (Shield Block up and used on each)
Last Stand / Enraged Regen on second
Shield Wall on third
Usually not requiring a 4th but if it does can call for an outside cooldown
Ensure the timing of cooldown usage so that they cover both impales (Shield Wall for example has a 12 sec duration so it can easily cover the 2 impales with 10 between)
Bubble stacks off the tanks picking up the worms to reduce healing requirements

Here is the combat log from our attempts: WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay (http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/log/1132825)

3/4 of the way through the night our other main guild Druid tank showed up and we finally downed the boss after like 17 attempts lol. Basically once it was Me, our Druid and the new Prot Warrior trial we had almost no issues on Gormok at all and it became more of a matter of DPS/heals not doing anything stupid to finally down the boss (God it sux when you have it basically down and then someone gets trampled lol).

Here are my main questions:


Experienced DKs, what type of cooldown rotation/timing do you use when tanking Gormok?
It looks like our DK ignored some of the tips I got from TankSpot for him last time, is his spec ok?
Are there some other intangibles that he should be looking for to improve his survivability?
Our raid leader is considering having him switch to DPS and simply give up on tanking in 25m Heroic ToC content. Are DKs simply not suited for this with current mechanics? (I can't believe this option because I know many DKs do tank this same content without problem)

Thanks

KayakBT
10-29-2009, 10:55 AM
All current content with the possible exception of the adds on Heroic 25 Anub'arak is tankable by a DK. The main issue I see is with the spec. He put 3 points in Spell Deflection which is not only a normally skipped talent, but for this fight particularly useless as most of the damage is physical. Those 3 points in Spell Deflection should be put in Will of the Necropolis. Not speccing into WotN is the main issue, as that is like having a paladin tank without Ardent Defender - it is a similar effect. WotN will help the tank from taking so much damage or being insta-gibbed. Mark of Blood and Dancing Rune Weapon should probably be dropped for 2 points in Scent of Blood. Change those, and you have the spec I am currently working with on progression on the same fight.

Now that spec issues are out of the way, his gear is a little funny. Under hit and expertise caps. Hit is very important in this fight for making sure taunt doesn't miss for tank transitions on Gormok. Although he is glyphed for Dark Command, his hit rating is still on the low side.

Shoulder enchant can be switched to the PvP one for more EH (30 stamina). Another thing with EH is that he should definitely not be using Eitrigg's Oath for this fight. Almost anything else is better. Brewfest trinkets, Heart of Iron, Black Heart, hell even Essence of Gossamer.

Sigil is not 245, he is still using the the 226 - at only 25 Triumph badges, there is no excuse for not having that at this point.

Get him out of that 213 Naxxramas cloak - either take him to Auriaya in 25 for a Cloak of the Makers, Vezax 10 for a Saronite Aniumus Cloak, or have him get a Pride of the Demon Lord off Jaraxxus in regular 25 TotC.

I'm fairly certain (correct me if I'm wrong) that the Indestructible Plate Girdle still gives more EH due to sockets than the regular version of the Belt of the Nether Champion which he is wearing now.

Other than that, the only problem should be either improper rotation or CD rotation by the tank, or the healers not timing heals properly to heal him when it is most needed. It also might help if the DK goes first in the tanking rotation as Gormok will have fewer stacks of his Rising Anger buff, and thus the DK will take less damage overall during phase 1. This would be especially useful if he is lesser geared than the other 2 tanks.

Know it's a lot, but the most key thing here is not speccing into WotN. Change that, and that might make all the difference in the world. Hope this helps!

swelt
10-29-2009, 11:17 AM
Our tanking approach:


3 Tanks (Me (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ner%27zhul&n=Squirrelnut), A new guild trial Prot Warrior (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ner%27zhul&n=Crackseed) (our main druid tank (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ner%27zhul&n=feenom) was gone most of the night), and the DK (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ner%27zhul&n=Haros)
2 Impale stacks each, taunt tank swap when 40 seconds left on 2 stacks
Tanking order: new guild tank first -> DK second -> Me third
This order allows me to be the one picking up Dreadscale as he comes out while the Prot Warrior trial tanks the last bit of Gormok

So the mechanics of rising anger mean that Gormokk hits harder over the course of the fight. We use the 2 tank strategy from the Tankspot video addendum, but you are using a 3 tank strategy. That's fine, but you need to plan your tank rotation and cooldown to take into account the damage that impale is going to do. With the Blood DK going 2nd in the rotation, he'll take impales 3+4 and 9+10. I imagine it's those latter two, when Gormokk is fully buffed, that he's crumpling. Impales 3+4 should be pretty easy to handle. Impales 9+10 must be countered with cooldowns, and even his regular white damage in that period is going to be harsh. Only 1 of your 2 ret paladins has vindication, make sure he's staying on gormokk throughout this phase. Ensure your healers are prepped for the tank switches and have Inspiration/Ancestral Fort on the tanks at all times.

I've tried looking at your WMO log but I find it very hard to see what's going on. WOL > * tbh!

Squirrelnut
10-29-2009, 11:27 AM
Thanks for all the input, I will pass it along. Also swelt I wasn't sure which meter people would prefer (I post both WMO and WoL on our guild site) so here is the WoL version for further analysis: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/tov94eqniorxvtel/sum/damageDone/)

EDIT: I keep up commanding shout, sunders, thunderclap and would do demo shout but it seemed the ret pallys were handling it so I left it alone.

Esch
10-29-2009, 11:39 AM
Glancing over parse:

Did employ all his CDs on the specific attempt I looked at, wasn't missing any so I wager he's got one up on the second impale. He's going to get hit harder in Blood, but I don't see a gap in his survival. (Threat via hit/expertise is something else entirely.)

I did note that his uptime on Inspiration was ~90 seconds, compared to 285 seconds for Squirrelnut, meaning he's not getting the (diminishing returned) 10% damage mitigation that talent provides. Consider ensuring he gets that in healing set up, it may be a factor with two-stacked impales. I didn't check if he was getting BoSanc (*blush*), another mitigation buff though you'd have to drop BoKings on him. Depends on your paladins.

WotN would definitely help, and giving up Spell Deflection/DRW are good spots for Gormok. You can rely on AMS/IBF for Worms' 'breaths' adequately.

Honestly, I feel he actually out gears me, with the only the E. Oath trinket being a place where I could 'outgear' him. Otherwise, it's a pretty much equal basis. I don't want to let the weight fall on him, as a comment made in my raid group is I'm the squishy guy, yet I manage with the same support (external CDs) given to other tanks.

swelt
10-29-2009, 11:42 AM
WOL has this really nice deaths overview mode: World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/tov94eqniorxvtel/deaths/?s=3168&e=3469)

Very handy for autopsies. Here you can see Haros getting a stomp (no way of avoiding that), not getting quite healed to full then hit by an impale + impale tick that kills him. It looks to me as though he is getting killed repeatedly by impale #10. He should have vamp blood up and probably IBF as well, given that he only needs to take 4 impales and the first two will be puny. Just make sure he's watching the DBM timer for impale and timing the use of those cooldowns for maximum effect. Glyphed VB is 15 seconds so that should be used ~4 seconds before impale 9 (the first one he takes) while IBF is 12 seconds and could be used 1 second before the impale. Using both CDs is perhaps overkill, but they'll be back up by the time he needs them for something else... What I think is happening is that he's using the CDs too early, so they have worn off when impale 10 lands.

Squirrelnut
10-29-2009, 12:09 PM
I should learn more about WOL, it seems very nice but I haven't looked at it all that much so need more experience with it (I love that death overview mode).

Thanks for the tips!

Kuraf
10-29-2009, 12:13 PM
I should learn more about WOL, it seems very nice but I haven't looked at it all that much so need more experience with it (I love that death overview mode).

Thanks for the tips!

Imho, WoL is far superior to WMO... my old guild used mainly WMO but I could always filter out more info out of WOL :)

Good luck for future attempts :)

Theotherone
10-29-2009, 01:16 PM
How's his relationship with the healers? Sounds like more of a heals issue.

Squirrelnut
10-29-2009, 03:59 PM
Actually a previous week the healers got a rotation down to have an outside cooldown up on him every single time he was tanking. We want to try and avoid that so we actually have some stuff available for worms/icehowl/etc.

Healers had no problem with him until Heroic 25m ToC because his gear was so good his spec/timing/etc didn't really matter. Now suddenly his inadequacies are glaring because he will get 1 shot with the amount of damage bosses do.