PDA

View Full Version : Guild warrior tank dead during 25totgc



Auyina
10-26-2009, 10:27 AM
Warrior armory The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Thaurissan&n=Hsuro)


The other 2 tanks are me(Druid) and Pally tank we have no problems surviving except for the warrior tank.he told me he pop cooldowns during impale but still he will die almost every round we try.

what could be the problem?

Griff
10-26-2009, 10:38 AM
Gear looks okay - I'd use the black heart instead of the brewfest trinket but otherwise, everything else looks like its in order.

He's got a threat spec instead of a survival spec and he could be running with improved demo and improved disciplines.

Is he using Indestructable pots? Is someone debuffing AP on Gormok? Is he throwing up shield block before he taunts?

Check the logs to see if he really is using cooldowns but honestly, I'd be looking at your healing team if nothing on the above list is an issue.

Bashal
10-26-2009, 10:39 AM
There are a couple nitpicky things he could be doing to maximize EH, but they wouldn't make so much difference as to keep him alive; he's already staking tons of stam, which is the right thing to do.

It could be a matter of when he is popping cooldowns. If he does them as soon as he has aggro, he is not mitigating the damage during the most dangerous part of his turn with Gormok, which is after he has a couple stacks of impale. That's when the damage really starts rolling in.

Xianth
10-26-2009, 11:35 AM
He needs to make sure his shield wall or last stand overlaps two impales rather than one, which requires precise timing rather than using it as soon as he gains aggro.

klor
10-26-2009, 11:46 AM
We have external CDs on the tanks during togc25 to help with the damage... try having paladins bubble/sac on him to mitigate more damage. We rotate cooldowns on them to make sure all three tanks stay alive.

Griff
10-26-2009, 11:46 AM
You'd need to be some sort of timing genius to pull that off. Shield Wall has a 12 second duration so it'd be impossible to stretch it for two impales. Last stand you can do this for, but its on a 20 second timer so its not really a crucial timing issue. Pop it just before the first impale and it'll be there for #2 with seconds to spare.

Auyina
10-26-2009, 12:28 PM
yeah we using 2 stacks taunt . but sometimes as soon as he taunt he will die . gormok will like hit him for 36k damage and die

Bovinity
10-26-2009, 12:30 PM
Shield Wall has a 12 second duration so it'd be impossible to stretch it for two impales.

Impales come every 10 seconds, right? Should be fairly easy to make Shield Wall hit 2 of them, then. Just pop Shield Wall right before one hits and you should have at least a second of overlap when the second one hits.

drae
10-26-2009, 12:42 PM
It is definitely possible to cover 2 impales with one shieldwall. It's a mistake I made when I first started tanking Gormok, and one I know other tanks make. I've since made that correction. ~0.5s before impale pop shieldwall, it will cover the second impale.

Make sure the de-haste and Lower AP de-buffs are on Gormok at all times. Have him use indestructible pots in conjuction with his weakest cooldown (only 2 "rotations" use it with last stand. if three, use it with trinkets / alone)

Use of external cool-downs can make it easier on the tank, but if his timing is right it's not a problem.

Bovinity
10-26-2009, 12:45 PM
Yeah, you can use the pre-combat potion trick to have armor pots up pretty much the entire Gormok encounter. Well, 4 minutes worth of it.

Griff
10-26-2009, 03:47 PM
Hrm..I remembered the impales being 15 seconds but maybe I'm misremembering.

Khue
10-26-2009, 03:52 PM
Offhand, I would say his armor seems a bit low but I like the rest of his build. Also you may be able to make an argument for improved shouts and stuff (commanding and demo).

Timing the sw to span 2 impales is pretty important. DBM allows for this fairly easily with the countdown timer and the progress bar. I tank impales 8, 9, 10, and 11 on heroic 25 man. I eat 8, pop sw 1 second prior to 9, and Satrina Trinket + Dodge Trinket + LS + ER through 10 to 11. 9 and 10 consume SW.

shez
10-26-2009, 09:36 PM
i used to have that problem till i get a lot of upgrade from 10man heroic, the pally has not been dying with about 4k hp less than me (warrior),warrior is taking A LOT more dmg than similar geared paladin and druid (according to the healers anyway),

I believe togc 25 is designed for people with full 245 gear

This is how we do it: tanks, me and pally

1-2: me
3-7: pally (use his hop after 5th)
8-12: me (holy pally's hop after 10th), i use last stand for 9th and 10th, sw for 11th 12th (don't have the damn trinket yet sadly)

drae
10-27-2009, 10:17 AM
Really? 2 tanks in 25m eh? that's interesting. I should convince my guild to try it that way sometime.

We always use three (also helpful for moving the bile around on worms and keeping toxin + worm damage to a minimum) and use a 2 impale rotation. Super simple. Each tank gets 3 rotations, nothing on the first, one cooldown on the second, SW style CD on the 3rd.

Aggathon
10-27-2009, 10:56 AM
Really? 2 tanks in 25m eh? that's interesting. I should convince my guild to try it that way sometime.

We always use three (also helpful for moving the bile around on worms and keeping toxin + worm damage to a minimum) and use a 2 impale rotation. Super simple. Each tank gets 3 rotations, nothing on the first, one cooldown on the second, SW style CD on the 3rd.

^ This.

Someone also mentioned his armor being too low and I completely agree. On the one hand I have no idea why he might be taking 36k hits, I mean they hit hard but I don't remember them hitting THAT hard. Last time I took a hit like that I was eating like 4-5 impales at once, 3 tank 2 imaple rotation is much safer imo.

As far as imp demo - in a 25 man raid there are a TON of people/classes that pick up these or similar talents. It is often not only inefficient but unwise for a tank to do so imo.

As far as armory - armor to cloak and gloves, stam gem in helm, 30stam/15 resil to shoulder should give him close to around 1k more EHP. I'd also personally suggested blood draining over bladeward. I'd also suggest tuskarr's vitality over 22 stam, but that's a whole 'nother argument.

Haur
10-28-2009, 04:11 AM
Warriors are very weak in later stages of fight when his damage buff is stacked up, try to sort rotations so he doesnt tank last rounds. If you switch on 2 impales, have him use last stand for both, if you go for three, save shield for last third impale he will take. Also announce to healers before switch, so your disc priest can bouble him and people switch to him in time. Use shield block before taunting. His gear seems fine so i dont really see why its not working out for you. Do people use cooldowns and are healers awake?

Squirrelnut
10-28-2009, 08:30 AM
Gear suggestions:
He might consider moving away from some defense in preference of more armor
Cloak - switch enchant to 225 armor
Head - switch to another 30 stam gem
Weapon - switch to blood draining (I am not a fan of blade ward and although I am not terribly impressed with blood draining at least it has saved my life a few times)

Spec Suggestions:
Although I enjoy deep wounds too, he may want to move toward a spec with a bit more survivability since threat should be a non-issue in current content with a good rotation. I prefer 15/3/53 - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LAM00fZhZVItRx0zidIzsGo:TcimMz)
It includes deep wounds, provides maximum rage generation but allows more survivability with increased block chance.

Glyph Suggestions:
I am a big proponent of glyphing Shield Wall, Devastate, Taunt as a progression prot warrior in ToC gear.
Shield Wall glyph lets you be far more aggressive in your cooldown usage.
Devastate is one of your most important talents (especially with the recent buffs and T9 bonus) and glyphing for it not only improves your threat but also helps raid DPS by getting 5 stacks sooner.
There is a HUGE lack of hit on gear so with tank swaps importance being high on many fights the taunt glyph seems like a necessity for me.

Babbling:
Although I am well aware of the various shortcomings of the Prot Warrior class I tend to resent any reference to us being 'weak' tanks. We may be similar to DKs as one of the hardest tank classes to keep alive due to our class mechanics, but if you do everything physically possible to min/max your gear, spec, rotation and cooldown usage you can be a VERY viable tank in virtually every situation including heroic 25m progression content.

Heroic 25m content hits HARD but I know for a fact that almost all of our healers much prefer having me tank things then our DK, Pallys and similar to our Druid (they have talked to me about it privately). So although Pallys are blatantly OP in the current state of the game and Druids are clearly the 2nd best tank (and have been for some time) there is absolutely no reason to rely on what I consider 'Gimmick' tanking methods to survive as a Prot Warrior.

Who tanks, the tanking order, outside cooldown usage, etc should all be based on experience, gear, and ability to stay alive. That can definitely be affected by the tanking class but I am confident Prot Warriors are very viable if min/maxed and played correctly.

As a final tidbit I think most Prot Warriors don't use their cooldowns as aggressively or effectively as they could. There is no doubt that Shield Wall should cover two impales and shield block should be up for the start of each of his tank rotations on Gormok. Combined with Last Stand, Enraged Regen, Trinkets, Armor Pots, etc the Warrior whose armory you listed should have no problem handling 25m Heroic ToC. There should be near 100% uptime on his Thunderclap debuff, Demo Shout (if an equivalent debuff isn't already in place from a ret pally etc) and Commanding Shout.

Aggathon
10-28-2009, 08:37 AM
Babbling:
Although I am well aware of the various shortcomings of the Prot Warrior class I tend to resent any reference to us being 'weak' tanks. We may be similar to DKs as one of the hardest tank classes to keep alive due to our class mechanics, but if you do everything physically possible to min/max your gear, spec, rotation and cooldown usage you can be a VERY viable tank in virtually every situation including heroic 25m progression content.

Heroic 25m content hits HARD but I know for a fact that almost all of our healers much prefer having me tank things then our DK, Pallys and similar to our Druid (they have talked to me about it privately). So although Pallys are blatantly OP in the current state of the game and Druids are clearly the 2nd best tank (and have been for some time) there is absolutely no reason to rely on what I consider 'Gimmick' tanking methods to survive as a Prot Warrior.

Who tanks, the tanking order, outside cooldown usage, etc should all be based on experience, gear, and ability to stay alive. That can definitely be affected by the tanking class but I am confident Prot Warriors are very viable if min/maxed and played correctly.

As a final tidbit I think most Prot Warriors don't use their cooldowns as aggressively or effectively as they could. There is no doubt that Shield Wall should cover two impales and shield block should be up for the start of each of his tank rotations on Gormok. Combined with Last Stand, Enraged Regen, Trinkets, Armor Pots, etc the Warrior whose armory you listed should have no problem handling 25m Heroic ToC. There should be near 100% uptime on his Thunderclap debuff, Demo Shout (if an equivalent debuff isn't already in place from a ret pally etc) and Commanding Shout.
Quoting for truth and added emphasis.

<3 Squirrelnut

Myranmys
10-28-2009, 09:06 AM
... but the point is that this is one of those fights that Blizz makes easier for some tanks. Warriors can tank it, but they have to have a full survival spec (the one in question does not), absolutely perfect cooldown timing, and spectacularly awesome and prescient healers. If any of 3 or 4 people do not guess the timing perfectly, the warrior is dead. By contrast, druids and pallies can do it without going to such lengths. Just get druid and pally tanks for this fight, and save some wipes.

Squirrelnut
10-28-2009, 09:11 AM
... but the point is that this is one of those fights that Blizz makes easier for some tanks. Warriors can tank it, but they have to have a full survival spec (the one in question does not), absolutely perfect cooldown timing, and spectacularly awesome and prescient healers. If any of 3 or 4 people do not guess the timing perfectly, the warrior is dead. By contrast, druids and pallies can do it without going to such lengths. Just get druid and pally tanks for this fight, and save some wipes.
I disagree, the spec I suggested still uses Deep Wounds = not full survival. I don't consider using Shield Wall .5 - 1 sec before impale "perfect cooldown timing" I consider that a basic requirement of any decent tank that uses addons efficiently.

Our healers prefer me tanking over our current Paladins, DK and similar if not slightly more then our Druid. So yes it is annoying that Prot Warriors mechanics are subpar and our survivability is lower but no that doesn't mean we are a liability to a raid or cause more wipes. It simply requires us to be better tanks (plus we bring nice buffs/debuffs such as sunders and shouts allowing max DPS from the rest of the raid).

EDIT: If you have to switch away from your Prot Warrior to 'save wipes' then you either have a substandard Prot Warrior or a misinformed raid leader

Griff
10-28-2009, 10:42 AM
As a final tidbit I think most Prot Warriors don't use their cooldowns as aggressively or effectively as they could. There is no doubt that Shield Wall should cover two impales and shield block should be up for the start of each of his tank rotations on Gormok. Combined with Last Stand, Enraged Regen, Trinkets, Armor Pots, etc the Warrior whose armory you listed should have no problem handling 25m Heroic ToC. There should be near 100% uptime on his Thunderclap debuff, Demo Shout (if an equivalent debuff isn't already in place from a ret pally etc) and Commanding Shout.


I think this is true, particularly for warrior tanks who were working during BC. I know it took me a little while to get used to integrating my cooldown use into tanking instead of relying on shield wall and last stand as an emergency button. Going from a 30 minute to a (potentially) 2 (!!) minute cooldown was a bigger change than I had initially thought. With shield wall especially, it used to be that if you used it, it might not be available for the next 5 to 6 attempts on a progression boss, and using it and still wiping was always a bummer. Now we can and should use our cooldowns multiple times in a fight and if they aren't on cooldown during boss loot, you should rethink your play style a little.

Aggathon
10-28-2009, 12:01 PM
Imo the only difference between warriors and paladins is (to use a car analogy) warriors have a manual transmission and paladins have an automatic transmission. Saying manual is worse than automatic is like saying "man, I have to pop a clutch and shift into higher gears to go faster? wtf?"

AD no death effect - like last stand but automatic

AD dmg reduction below 30% effect - I'd equate to shield block but automatic, and arguable that shield block is better depending on your BV and how hard the boss hits.

Pally wall - p. much the same as warriors but causes them forbearance, slightly better than warriors if warrior glyphs, warrior % reduc is better if not glyphed but longer cooldown.

Wings - I'd argue similar to shield block for threat

The only real advantage I see is that pallies have a bigger natural EHP pool, however I typically have much higher armor than my pally counterpart (Eraduun on Maelstrom if you want to armory him) by roughly 2.5k iirc. So even though he has I think over 4k more hps than me, our EHPs come out to roughly the same, but he's still a tad higher.

I can tank anything he can and vice versa, the only difference is that I have to be proactive with my skills and use them before I take damage whereas a lot of his cooldowns are reactive and automatic.

I have to agree completely with Squirrelnuts, if a warrior tank is dying it seems like operator error, not the class itself. Hell before DBM had the impale timer I counted it out in my head and could still get 2 impales. It's really not too difficult and our healers prefer me in the spot y'all are talking about to use my shield wall then. I have zero problems surviving that fight and in the first week we tried a 2 tank method for a night because our feral wasn't around and I could survive up to 8 impales on my own, this was with only minimal 245 gear (like 3 pieces I think, bracers, legs, and a belt or something) and then pretty much BiS or 2nd BiS Ulduar gear.

swelt
10-29-2009, 09:14 AM
what could be the problem?

The problem is strategy. Your strategy needs to be built around the fight, the impale hits that get larger and larger over the course of the fight. The CC strategy forum, and the project marmot guide (including the very relevant addendum), provide all the info you need. Druids (with massive HP) and paladins (with AD's dmg reduction component being especially efficient vs impale hits) have an easier time vs Gormokk, but we do it with 2 warriors.

Bashal
10-30-2009, 07:27 AM
Although I am well aware of the various shortcomings of the Prot Warrior class

I just wanted to say, I have never had any more trouble keeping a DK or a Prot Warrior alive than a bear or a paladin. Healing each class "feels" different but I honestly have no preference. All the tanking classes are good enough in their mechanics that it's more about the player than the class itself.

:)

Squirrelnut
10-30-2009, 07:41 AM
When I refer to the Prot Warrior shortcomings I mainly refer to our actual mechanics problems which can be verified based purely on the numbers:
- block is still broken
- rage mechanic still needs improvement
- DPS output is too low due to baked in threat & vigilance
- health doesn't scale as well as it should in BiS gear
- cooldowns require glyphs and talent points just to be on par with other tanks

Now with all that being said, Prot Warriors have been around a long time and have great resources such as TankSpot to learn and improve. A substantial amount of theory crafting and practice has gone into the Prot Warrior class so although we are on the bottom of the totem pole with regard to tanking classes, skill and ingenuity frequently make us seem just as good if not better then other tanks.

Most of our healers feel the same as you Bashal but that is due to my min/maxing virtually everything available to me while some of our other tanks (despite superior mechanics) not doing so and thus seeming just as hard or harder to keep alive.

** off topic ** I almost wish there weren't so many good Prot Warriors because if Blizzard Devs were to improve our problems and provide us with near equal the mechanics of the current state of Pally tanks we would min/max it to death and be considered insanely OP. They leave us at the bottom of the totem-pole because they know full well that we will find a way to make ourselves viable no matter what (and they think there are too many of us).