PDA

View Full Version : A new druid tank needs some help



Sukafree
10-25-2009, 11:17 AM
Long story short, I leveled this character to tank with and hit 80 less than 3 weeks ago. So he is still a work in progress. Here is my armory link

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Scarlet+Crusade&cn=Holymooly&gn=WarMachine)

So what i need help with is gemming and enchants. Fully raid buffed I have just over 50K health, 29K armor, and 42% dodge. I didn't really have any issues OT'n 10 man ToC and Ony, as well as OT'n 25 Ony and most of 25 ToC. That is until we hit Anub. My job was to hold on of the big adds that spawn while the 3rd tank grabs the other. I did fine with just the one add on me, but when the 2nd set comes out and I grab the 2nd add, i just get destroyed. Im working my way up to get the conquest head piece now so better gear is coming. But should I change out some of my gems or chants? Thanks for the help.

Oh and to edit, so far I have not had any real issues with threat. I know question might come up.

Fenier
10-26-2009, 02:24 AM
The problem is with your Spec.

You do not have Protector of the Pack, you automatically take 12% more damage then you should.

I do not know if you Demo Roar what you are offtanking. If not, then you are taking an additional 10%~ which you can avoid by roaring once every 30 seconds.

Further, since you do not have Feral Aggression You are taking a additional 5% damage which is avoidable with specing differently.

All totaled up, you are taking at minimum 17% more damage (Protector of the Pack / Feral Aggression) which you can avoid, and up to 27% more damage (If you don't Demo Roar at all). All totally avoidable by simply adjusting your spec.

Additionally, since you do not have Protector of the Pack, your Savage Defense values are slightly lower due to the loss of Attack Power.

Viridios
10-26-2009, 09:08 AM
The problem is with your Spec.

You do not have Protector of the Pack, you automatically take 12% more damage then you should.

I do not know if you Demo Roar what you are offtanking. If not, then you are taking an additional 10%~ which you can avoid by roaring once every 30 seconds.

Further, since you do not have Feral Aggression You are taking a additional 5% damage which is avoidable with specing differently.

All totaled up, you are taking at minimum 17% more damage (Protector of the Pack / Feral Aggression) which you can avoid, and up to 27% more damage (If you don't Demo Roar at all). All totally avoidable by simply adjusting your spec.

Additionally, since you do not have Protector of the Pack, your Savage Defense values are slightly lower due to the loss of Attack Power.

I agree with this, mostly. If you aren't the one providing the demo roar - if there's already a different tank providing it [or a DPS providing a similar nonstacking debuff] there isn't a reason to go for Feral Aggression. It should be noted that some ret paladins passively apply this debuff to their target [not AoE]. Honestly, it's better to have a specific tank apply the debuff, since the can make sure it's always up and use it as an AoE.

Also, if it's phase 3 that's killing you - that is, if you are surviving until phase 3 and then the adds from previous stages are eating you - it's probably your healers not keeping you up enough [standard practice is to stop healing everyone but the tanks past 50% or so when the p3 starts; sometimes healers don't heal the offtanks either, and that causes wipes].


End result: If you have another tank doing demo roar/shout, dump Imp. mangle for Protector of the Pack. If you don't, you should also dump Master/Natural Shapeshifter into Feral Aggression. [ie, what he said, just more verbose]

Bovinity
10-26-2009, 09:27 AM
Like others have said, missing Protector of the Pack pretty much means you're going to be getting slapped around big time. That's a core bear tank talent, there's no reason whatsoever to not have it.

Also, bear tanks might just be the absolute worst choice to tank Anub adds. Not that you can't do it, but there's just so many better choices due to the way Expose works and the fact that bears have few stun/interrupt options. If you have the option, the bear should be tanking Anub and someone like a warrior should be on adds.

felhoof
10-26-2009, 09:37 AM
On a side note - why are you tanking two adds at all? Your raid should be killing the adds before another spawns. There's no reason to tank two adds unless you're doing the heroic version of the fight.

If you do get to tank two adds at once, you're going to have to blow cooldowns to survive. PotP is essential, but so is barkskin. I'd recommend doing barkskin and then SI when barkskin runs out, then barkskin + frenzied regen on the second set if you continue to do it this way.

But really, get PotP.

Bovinity
10-26-2009, 09:42 AM
Yeah, what he said. You said you have 3 tanks, but that doesn't mean you just hold all 4 adds at once. They'll stack their haste buff and pretty much just demolish all the tanks. Normal Anub 25 is really a 2-tank encounter anyway.

Sukafree
10-26-2009, 12:09 PM
Thanks for all the help, that’s exactly what I was looking for. I do use Demo roar, and it seems like lately I have been running with pally tanks, so I guess I should take out the MS for FA for the added reduction. My question is will the additional attack power from PotP make up for the loss of threat from losing MS?

But I will definately work on my spec tonight, Ill take out Imp mangle for PotP, Im still on the fence about FA though. I will probably take it and try a few heroics to see how my threat is.

And I take it that since my gear/enchats/gems didn't get bashed, that they are on the right track. :) thanks again.

felhoof
10-26-2009, 12:37 PM
PotP isn't really up for question. You're taking 12% more damage than you should be. This is akin to you wearing lvl 70 gear. It doesn't matter if your threat would be worse or not; it's an essential tanking talent. Without it, you're basically tanking in a feral DPS spec.

Your threat should likely be fine. You don't have to lose MS either; you can have it and MS. You'd probably have to lose Imp Mangle and IW though, but that's not so bad.

You probably don't need FA if you're running with pally tanks; most pally tanks have it. You certainly don't need it for normal ToC.

I didn't have time to look at your gear before. Don't use Idol of Mutilation; use Idol of the Corrupter instead. Otherwise it looks mostly fine; I don't understand your belt gemming, but it's not horrible.

Viridios
10-26-2009, 12:44 PM
Thanks for all the help, that’s exactly what I was looking for. I do use Demo roar, and it seems like lately I have been running with pally tanks, so I guess I should take out the MS for FA for the added reduction. My question is will the additional attack power from PotP make up for the loss of threat from losing MS?

But I will definately work on my spec tonight, Ill take out Imp mangle for PotP, Im still on the fence about FA though. I will probably take it and try a few heroics to see how my threat is.

And I take it that since my gear/enchats/gems didn't get bashed, that they are on the right track. :) thanks again.

Make up for it? That depends. Are you staying alive more? All the threat in the world isn't enough to balance out a wipe-causing death.

If you are not well over the threat caused by the DPS in your group - you need better [tanking] gear or misdirects, and they need to watch their aggro.

Old line, still generally true: If the tank dies, it's the healer's fault. If the healer dies, it's the tank's fault. If the DPS die, it's the DPS's fault.


PotP isn't really up for question. You're taking 12% more damage than you should be. This is akin to you wearing lvl 70 gear. It doesn't matter if your threat would be worse or not; it's an essential tanking talent. Without it, you're basically tanking in a feral DPS spec.

Yup, pretty much this.



Your threat should likely be fine. You don't have to lose MS either; you can have it and MS. You'd probably have to lose Imp Mangle and IW though, but that's not so bad.

IW is a very important debuff for Heroic-raid tanking; I don't suggest dropping it, ever. Even if you "always" run with someone else that can apply it, they can be sick/dead/whatever and you get stuck needing the debuff.



You probably don't need FA if you're running with pally tanks; most pally tanks have it. You certainly don't need it for normal ToC.

Normal ToC doesn't require it, no. Still good practice though. But - don't rely on the poor paladin, it's actually not in the "standard" paladin build. The Paladin guides I've seen on this site appear to mostly be outdated [though I might have just missed them], The Protection Paladin Field Manual (WoW-3.0/WotLK) - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t37172-protection_paladin_field_manual_wow_3_0_wotlk/) has a nice little spec with points left over to distribute as needed, but skips a bunch of useful talents. Vindication just isn't an easy to obtain talent for Paladins. Also, it's only autoapplied to their target; in AoE situations Roar/Shout are vastly superior.

Sukafree
10-26-2009, 01:12 PM
So Im going to respec tonight going 0/60/11, losing Imp Mangle, NS, and MS and gaining PotP and FA. That is a damage reduction of 17% that I didnt have before which should hopefully make up for it.

As for the gemming in the belt, I just went for Agility and Stam. its a yellow socket in the belt it self, and that was the best choice I had on the AH at the time. Is there something better I should put in there?

I have read mixed reviews about the 2 different tank idols, So I made the choice to go with the one that I could use for multiple specs. So is it now the concenses that the Idol of the Corrupter is better than the Idol of Mutilation? Why is that?

Bovinity
10-26-2009, 01:16 PM
Because the agility from Corruptor provides about as much dodge as the dodge rating from Mutiliation, along with the armor and crit that agility provides.

felhoof
10-26-2009, 01:19 PM
The belt is okay; I guess I usually either see people try and go for the socket bonuses or they'll just go for stam. Using a purple gem when you're not trying to match socket colors seemed odd to me.

Sukafree
10-26-2009, 01:23 PM
Thanks Bovinity. Now heres the kicker (well not really but I will help out) i am currently sitting at around 25 Conquest badges. I am saving up for the tier 8 helm (since the helm Im wearing is more geared toward dps). So figuring I can get enough badges by friday when my raid is scheduled, would it be a better upgrade to save up for the helm first and get the idol next this weekend after the raid, or go ahead and get the Idol and wait a few extra days on the helm.

Thanks again for all the help, My main used to be a disc/shadow priest and I am just trying to learn about the bear tank.

Would anyone suggest that I replace my current agi/stam gems with straight stam and go for more EH?

Sukafree
10-26-2009, 01:25 PM
The belt is okay; I guess I usually either see people try and go for the socket bonuses or they'll just go for stam. Using a purple gem when you're not trying to match socket colors seemed odd to me.

I did it just trying to stack some agi to mix with the stam so I can get a little more dodge and armor.

felhoof
10-26-2009, 01:28 PM
I'd get the helm first over the idol. But you should really focus on getting a lot of conquest badges.

Sukafree
10-26-2009, 01:44 PM
I am working on the badges. I try to run the daily Heroic and non (on heroic) and one or two more a day. So Im looking at on average 12-15 badges a day. Now last friday night, Me and a few guildies ran chain heroics which resulted in 28 badges and my tier 7 chest was replaced by my current tier 8.

Felhoof, what is your response to replacing some of my agi/stam gems for straight stam? What HP numbers or dodge % should I be shooting for?

felhoof
10-26-2009, 01:50 PM
Felhoof, what is your response to replacing some of my agi/stam gems for straight stam? What HP numbers or dodge % should I be shooting for? For Anub I don't think it's going to matter. Honestly, that 12% damage not taken for Anub should almost certainly make the difference. That, and killing the adds earlier instead of leaving them up. Do both of these things and you'll probably be set. No need to regem yet.

For Heroic 25man I'd aim for about 52k health at least, and preferably 55k+. Dodge is irrelevant in terms of numbers; you'll have well over 40% raid buffed, and you don't need more (nor does it help you that much). For your first kill on Beasts try to have as much as you can. There's a lot of slop and scariness for healers that more health can really help. Make sure to have trinkets with on-use CDs as well.

Sukafree
10-26-2009, 01:57 PM
Right now, raid buffed I am at just over 50K health and 42% dodge. I guess I could replace the some of the Agi for stam and should be able to pull out some more numbers. Replacing my helm would be a huge upgrade as far as stam goes.

Would you suggest that i shoot for the 52K mark and replace the brewfest stam trinket for the dodge one that is a passive 84 dodge rating with an on use of an additional 355?

felhoof
10-26-2009, 02:03 PM
Would you suggest that i shoot for the 52K mark and replace the brewfest stam trinket for the dodge one that is a passive 84 dodge rating with an on use of an additional 355?Ugh, no. No no no. That's horrible. Don't do that :)

If you really must, spend the 50 emblems of triumph on Glyph of Indomitability. But even then, I'd wait. You can instead get other upgrades that will be bigger with those emblems.

Replace the helm, try and get another stam trinket (the one from normal ToC25 would be great), try and run ToC10 normal and get some upgrades from there. Do Ony10 and try and get the ring, the helm and the weapon. Do VoA10 and hope for random upgrades. Get Footpads of Silence made. If you can afford it, get Bracers of Swift Death made. Try getting Mark of the Relentless or Keystone Great-Ring.

Sukafree
10-26-2009, 07:02 PM
Thanks for the help again. So would you say replace the Black Heart with the other brewfest stam trinket? Its a gain of 49 stam but loses the chance for extra armor.

geros
10-26-2009, 07:22 PM
the black heart is crazy good. I would be using that over a brewfest trinket unless you are in a completely magical damage encounter.

felhoof
10-27-2009, 07:48 AM
For Anub'arak 10, the black heart is fine. It's great even - you want things like armor procs over raw stam.