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jibaikia
10-23-2009, 08:20 AM
this is my armory :
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Scarshield+Legion&n=Jibaikia)

incase if u have problem accessing the website here is my stat :
HP: 30557
Armor: 7893
Defense: 432
Dodge: 31.53%
Damage: 1299 - 1695
Speed: 3.34
Power1866
Hit Rating: 172
Crit Chance: 23.83%
Expertise: 26

I am currently experiencing difficulties on tanking in heroic TOC 10 or 25 man as well as algaron 10 man. I donno how it happens but I keep on dying…. , feel free to leave your comment (spec/gem/ench /etc).

sry about the double posting in another section. :P

felhoof
10-23-2009, 09:54 AM
I can't see the armory with that link. Looks like the armory is down.

That being said - 30k health in caster form seems a bit low. 8k armor also seems a bit low. I'd bet that you aren't gemmed for stamina as much, have poor enchants, went for a lot of socket bonuses, and probably aren't wearing a lot of armor gear.

felhoof
10-23-2009, 10:34 AM
Heh. Okay, looking at the armory I can see I was almost entirely right. Yay for clairvoyance!

On gear:
Shoulders can use the gladiatior shoulder enchant and 30 stam instead of getting the socket bonus with crit/stam.
Chest should be +10 stam and get a +30 stam gem in it.
Try to get Bracers of Swift Death made.
Gloves can go with 30 stam instead of a def/stam gem.
Get a death-warmed belt made.
Legs are basically fine, though consider putting stam in them as well.
Consider picking up Glyph of Indomitability and/or using Heart of Iron or Black Heart.
Archon Glaive should likely have stamina instead.
You should be using idol of the corrupter instead of idol of mutilation.

Between most of these changes you should gain about 150 stamina, which is close to 2500 health.

On your spec: you don't have feral aggression or infected wounds. You can know better than I - are you sure that the 20% melee attack slow and the improved demo shout/roar are being put up? If they're not (like they often aren't in 10 man) that's a big deal. I can't stress this enough. This is especially true for Algalon; you need to have the damage reduction, far more than you need threat.

Atheia
10-23-2009, 12:38 PM
Avoid stam stacking until you get the rest of your stats where they need to be (stam stacking without the right stats elsewhere means more work for the healer and the same end result). Increase your dodge, hit, and expertise... you have some nice gear though.

As for your spec, nothing really there that you could do to keep you from "dying"... not real sure why you chose to not include feral aggression or infected wounds... not being critical, just asking if there was a reason... I'm always open to making changes to improve.

Sorry I wasn't much help.. what little advice I was able to lend, I did so based on experience. Surely some uber bear tank will come along and teach us all!

Atheia
10-23-2009, 12:42 PM
actually, I think your dodge is fine considering DR from that point... heh.

felhoof
10-23-2009, 12:43 PM
Ignore everything Atheia just said.

You're dying a lot. One very big reason you're dying a lot is because you are fairly low in terms of stamina, especially for a druid tank. You don't need hit or expertise to not die a lot. Dodge isn't going to help you nearly that much. What you need is stamina, and armor.

Atheia
10-23-2009, 12:43 PM
Heh. Okay, looking at the armory I can see I was almost entirely right. Yay for clairvoyance!

On gear:
Shoulders can use the gladiatior shoulder enchant and 30 stam instead of getting the socket bonus with crit/stam.
Chest should be +10 stam and get a +30 stam gem in it.
Try to get Bracers of Swift Death made.
Gloves can go with 30 stam instead of a def/stam gem.
Get a death-warmed belt made.
Legs are basically fine, though consider putting stam in them as well.
Consider picking up Glyph of Indomitability and/or using Heart of Iron or Black Heart.
Archon Glaive should likely have stamina instead.
You should be using idol of the corrupter instead of idol of mutilation.

Between most of these changes you should gain about 150 stamina, which is close to 2500 health.

On your spec: you don't have feral aggression or infected wounds. You can know better than I - are you sure that the 20% melee attack slow and the improved demo shout/roar are being put up? If they're not (like they often aren't in 10 man) that's a big deal. I can't stress this enough. This is especially true for Algalon; you need to have the damage reduction, far more than you need threat.

hehe, thanks... taking some of these tips for myself, as well

Atheia
10-23-2009, 12:47 PM
Ignore everything Atheia just said.

And so brings our uber tank to learn us something. Stam stacking when you are getting beat on is useless. Stam adds hp, not armor and therefore prolongs the inevitable. The hit and the expertise just helps in other areas as well (doesn't save you but creates a better tank). I tank these just fine and I don't stack stamina to impress people with high HP (gotta have a certain amount, sure, but my stats are fairly solid all the way around because I ignore the "stam stacking" obsession - of course, I don't tank places I'm not ready to tank). And yes, I have more to do. Haven't quite gotten to the Uber level of Felhoof but then again, haven't been playing near as long.. one day, oh yes, one day!

Bashal
10-23-2009, 01:14 PM
And so brings our uber tank to learn us something. Stam stacking when you are getting beat on is useless. Stam adds hp, not armor and therefore prolongs the inevitable.

It does give the healer more time to heal you, however.


The hit and the expertise just helps in other areas as well (doesn't save you but creates a better tank).

This is true as far as threat generation goes. No hit/exp and your threat goes down the toilet.


I tank these just fine and I don't stack stamina to impress people with high HP (gotta have a certain amount, sure, but my stats are fairly solid all the way around because I ignore the "stam stacking" obsession - of course, I don't tank places I'm not ready to tank).

Several of the higher-end encounters require stam stacking regardless of what class of tank you have. Excluding those specific encounters, it isn't necessary. But because people see tanks running around stam-stacked, it has caused bias towards all tanks, regardless of context, concerning their stamina (i.e. the notion that a war or pally tank with less than 30k health can't do heroics). You may find as you progress, that when you get to a certain point, you just don't have enough health to "take it in the face" unless you stam stack.

Fenier
10-23-2009, 01:16 PM
I would venture Infected Wounds and Feral Aggression would make more of a difference then any other suggestion made so far.

Which brings up the point, are you even using Demo Roar in the first place?

Infected Wounds decreases the rate at which you take damage by 20%. This adds up over the long run, and make make the difference between your healers being able to keep up or not.

Demo Roar effectiveness varies Boss to Boss, but you can expect at least 10% without Feral Aggression and 15% or so with it. That's extra mitigation which would take you thousands of armor to equal in gear.

Atheia
10-23-2009, 01:26 PM
Several of the higher-end encounters require stam stacking regardless of what class of tank you have. Excluding those specific encounters, it isn't necessary. But because people see tanks running around stam-stacked, it has caused bias towards all tanks, regardless of context, concerning their stamina (i.e. the notion that a war or pally tank with less than 30k health can't do heroics). You may find as you progress, that when you get to a certain point, you just don't have enough health to "take it in the face" unless you stam stack.

I agree totally, but as you pointed out, the "higher-end encounters" would also lend to one thinking that the tank was prepared to go in such places and therefore already be well rounded.. not always the case. As gear progresses (i.e. Felhoof's gear which is quite sweet) you can afford to start stacking stamina because you have the rest of the stats squared away, for the most part. Stacking stamina without dodge and expertise is pointless, imho. And I like the suggestion made about Demo Roar by Fenier... there are far more issues to consider rather than how much stam you can slot. That's just me and I suppose that's why I'm told often that I'm much easier to "keep up" than most druid tanks (of course, I've been told I'm squishy too... 6 in one hand, a half a dozen in the other).

geros
10-23-2009, 01:36 PM
Avoidance is nowhere near as good as it was in BC due to diminishing returns. The reality is that if you are MT'ing ulduar HM/ totgc, your healers are not canceling most of their heals regardless of how much you dodge. So stacking dodge instead of stam turns into overheal in a lot of situations instead of having a larger buffer for the healers to work with. This is why EH has been king except for later tiers of BC content (cue sunwell raidiance and avoidance DR's). If your healers are mainly reactively healing you then this is another story. Stack agility until the cows come home.

Bashal
10-23-2009, 01:38 PM
I agree totally, but as you pointed out, the "higher-end encounters" would also lend to one thinking that the tank was prepared to go in such places and therefore already be well rounded.

The OP is asking for help with such encounters, though, which is why I pointed it out. Algalon and ToGC10/25 are both places where stam stacking is necessary, due to rapid, high-damage bosses. In that context, the advice to stack more stam makes sense.

Atheia
10-23-2009, 01:41 PM
The OP is asking for help with such encounters, though, which is why I pointed it out. Algalon and ToGC10/25 are both places where stam stacking is necessary, due to rapid, high-damage bosses. In that context, the advice to stack more stam makes sense.

I suppose.. he did however list all of his stats and linked to his armory to look at his talents therefore showing more needed to be done rather than stacking stam... but whatever, I don't stack stamina and do just fine. I was merely giving my opinion on the matter. Everyone has their own "sure fire way" to do it... so, take what you like and leave the rest.

Bovinity
10-23-2009, 01:42 PM
Stacking stamina without dodge and expertise is pointless, imho.

It's a pretty huge fallacy, the one where people think that high HP = squishy or something.

And when it comes to druids, bears scale so sickeningly well with stamina that there's almost no reason to NOT get a lot of it. You'll get plenty of armor (More than any plate wearer) and dodge (Remember, we stack agility just by default since we're wearing rogue leather.) just along the way.


And so brings our uber tank to learn us something. Stam stacking when you are getting beat on is useless. Stam adds hp, not armor and therefore prolongs the inevitable.

They're both different sides of the same coin. Either armor or HP just "prolongs the inevitable". That's not an argument for or against either of them.

The current raid situation pretty much demands stamina, much moreso than armor most of the time - and again, this is especially true for bears and our ~1.6x stamina modifier.

When I was MTing Naxx back in 2008, I had agility in almost every gem and enchant slot and it was cool. Things have changed, now if I try that I'd probably explode in ToGC.

As for expertise...the question wasn't about threat, so it's reasonable that the topic was ignored in the initial replies.


On your spec: you don't have feral aggression or infected wounds. You can know better than I - are you sure that the 20% melee attack slow and the improved demo shout/roar are being put up? If they're not (like they often aren't in 10 man) that's a big deal. I can't stress this enough. This is especially true for Algalon; you need to have the damage reduction, far more than you need threat.

I have a personal rule about FA/IW...I ALWAYS get them no matter what now. I see the whole damage reduction/mitigation thing as part of my role and thus I only rely on myself to get them done. Sure, someone else might be able to, but what happens if they die or get lazy or something? Then my job just became a hell of a lot harder.

If there were something really compelling to get in lieu of FA/IW, I'd consider it...but really, what are you missing out on to get them? Improved Mangle? Master Shapeshifter? Eh. =D

felhoof
10-23-2009, 01:44 PM
Okay, Atheia, let me see if I understand this right.

The problem is that in hard mode content (Algalon, ToGC10 and 25) the tank in question is dying a lot.

Your solution is to have them stack hit and expertise. Is that right? And then have them stack some more dodge?

Did you even look at this person's armory? You do realize that they're quoting their caster stats, right?


As gear progresses (i.e. Felhoof's gear which is quite sweet) you can afford to start stacking stamina because you have the rest of the stats squared away, for the most part.No. This is exactly the wrong advice, the wrong way to think about it, and is almost 100% completely wrong.

You don't stack stamina once you've got reasonable amounts of dodge and hit/expertise. You stack stamina UNTIL you have reasonable amounts of health for the encounter, and then you can do whatever makes the most sense. More stamina might be good - but so might be avoidance, threat, whatever. The point being that until you reach the level of reasonable survivability, stacking anything other than stamina (or whatever will help you survive that specific encounter) is a laughable statement.


Stacking stamina without dodge and expertise is pointless, imho. And I like the suggestion made about Demo Roar by Fenier... there are far more issues to consider rather than how much stam you can slot.Which is why my very first statement after I saw his armory was whether or not imp demo roar and IW were being put on the boss, and if not - to get them.

felhoof
10-23-2009, 01:46 PM
Also, Atheia - now I'm curious. What encounters are you doing 'fine' in, and what kind of stats are you sporting? If you're not stacking stamina via trinkets, gemming, etc - how are you handling things like Gormok's impale/melee/impale tick damage on 25 man hard mode?

Bashal
10-23-2009, 01:49 PM
I suppose.. he did however list all of his stats and linked to his armory to look at his talents therefore showing more needed to be done rather than stacking stam...

This touches on the whole EH (Effective Health) vs. Avoidance topic, of which there are several threads with back-and-forth on it.

The upshot is: for the high-damage boss fights, EH is better because it is always there; avoidance is random and during a 5-10 minute boss fight, you'll get a bad avoidance string (more than one, really), get hit a bunch of times in a row, and if the EH isn't there, you die.

It isn't balanced; it skews your stats towards being hit more (but being able to take those hits), but sadly, is necessary. Many tanks who do it lament the necessity of it. But they can't get through those fights reliably without doing it.

Bovinity
10-23-2009, 01:52 PM
Many tanks who do it lament the necessity of it.

Yep.

I don't necessarily LIKE being a 57,500hp meatshield in raids, but I kinda have to be for some fights. And half the time I feel like I could use even more. ><

I like my agility, I really do...but well, the raw EH "requirements" are way higher now than in Naxx.

Atheia
10-23-2009, 01:59 PM
Well, I have to say thanks to Bovinity to making more sense of the reasons WHY rather than shrugging off a post that was at odds like Felhoof. I appreciate it. Although I'll continue to gear the way I am and have no trouble doing the content I'm doing without stam stacking, I will, however, look at the possibility of tossing a stamina gem with all that in mind.

As I said, I'm still learning as well or I wouldn't be spending time in these forums... my posts are merely based on experience I've had (and thus far, it's worked for me)... goodness knows how many times I've changed this and that (Thanks, btw, to Darksend) to improve... I'm not above more improvement if it's presented in a way that explains the faults rather than the arrogance of "You're just wrong" when I know, because I do this, I'm not.

Atheia
10-23-2009, 02:03 PM
Also, Atheia - now I'm curious. What encounters are you doing 'fine' in, and what kind of stats are you sporting? If you're not stacking stamina via trinkets, gemming, etc - how are you handling things like Gormok's impale/melee/impale tick damage on 25 man hard mode?

Not doing hardmode quite yet as I'm not prepared to... I know my limits.

I also never said I didn't have stamina trinkets, I do... I just don't consider stacking stamina to be the magical fix for tanking.

As for my stats, I'm only about 39k unbuffed still, 39% dodge, 248 hit (need more, stat food hit just seems cheesy to get where I need to be), 214 expertise (more, more, more). I have a ways to go to meet your level of uberness, Felhoof... but one day I aspire to be just like you... hopefully without being so easily offended though :)

and for the record, getting those bracers made you mentioned, those are sweet

P.S. Going to regem all my gear tonight for ToC (taking other gems just in case) to see if there is a huge difference... if not, I'll report back that in fact, you were right and I was 100% wrong (although I have a feeling it wouldn't matter, you already think you're 100% right regardless)

felhoof
10-23-2009, 02:25 PM
For normal modes it doesn't matter. There's nothing in normal modes right now that remotely pushes anything in terms of effective health; you could be tanking it easily in Ulduar or Naxx-levels of gear without problem.

But I bet that if you did try hard mode you'd be hosed in the gearing you're doing.

I also bet that if you decided to go with stamina instead, you'd probably be okay.

And I don't take offense, but it's just...well, it's silly to come in and claim that you know what's working when you didn't bother looking at their armory, you didn't bother reading the other posts, and more importantly you didn't bother actually thinking about their question and assumed that because you're doing fine in your content that applies to whatever they're doing. I mean, you basically said that because you can tank anything in normal ToC that he should be fine tanking anything in heroic ToC if he only improves his hit and expertise.

I realize that you don't have the experience there, but to those of us who have tanked that - this is just ludicrous on its face. Heck, it's odd anyway - the problem that he posed was 'I am dying too much, help'. And your response to this is to...have him get more threat and more dodge.

jibaikia
10-23-2009, 02:27 PM
so how much sta/HP u recon i stack up to ? what about my dodge ? should i make it atlest 40% unbuff or dont care ?

jibaikia
10-23-2009, 02:32 PM
my treat is at the bother line as well ><

felhoof
10-23-2009, 02:38 PM
my treat is at the bother line as well ><I don't pretend to understand that.

Right now you're at about 33k armor and 51.5k health. That's very low to deal with Gormok via using barkskin, especially later on in the fight. I'd recommend aiming for at least 55k health. If you do what I suggest you should be at or above that. To sum up, that was:
regem the shoulders, chest, weapon, hands with nothing but stam gems
get gladiator enchant for shoulders
get a second stamina trinket like black heart or heart of iron
get death-warmed belt

As to dodge: I don't personally care. If you're dying, dodge isn't going to save you consistently. With those stats and that gear set you should have a post-DR dodge rate of about 45%, which is more than sufficient.

Atheia
10-23-2009, 02:46 PM
For normal modes it doesn't matter. There's nothing in normal modes right now that remotely pushes anything in terms of effective health; you could be tanking it easily in Ulduar or Naxx-levels of gear without problem. Not sure a tank geared out of Naxx would have much luck with toc25 but then again, I've seen people geared with t9 fail in ulduar 10... suppose gear is just too easy to come by nowaways




But I bet that if you did try hard mode you'd be hosed in the gearing you're doing. I doubt it...


I also bet that if you decided to go with stamina instead, you'd probably be okay. We'll see but just told my guild of this and the healers weren't near as impressed as you seem to be with the idea


well, it's silly to come in and claim that you know what's working when you didn't bother looking at their armory, you didn't bother reading the other posts, and more importantly you didn't bother actually thinking about their question and assumed that because you're doing fine in your content that applies to whatever they're doing. I mean, you basically said that because you can tank anything in normal ToC that he should be fine tanking anything in heroic ToC if he only improves his hit and expertise.I will admit that I missed the "heroic" part of it and because I did look at his armory and the stats he posted, I didn't expect it to be heroic. However, I think it's is silly that you continue to say I said improving his hit and expertise would be his cure all. It obviously shows that you're more interested in hearing (reading in this case) yourself talk than following the thread. In fact, I even said that it isn't about keeping him alive rather than making him a better tank, that's all... interesting that you say you take no offense yet you're reaching to belittle anything I say. Odd?


I realize that you don't have the experience there, but to those of us who have tanked that - this is just ludicrous on its face. Heck, it's odd anyway - the problem that he posed was 'I am dying too much, help'. And your response to this is to...have him get more threat and more dodge.And again, shows you're not even remotely following the thread. My response was far more than just get threat and dodge (although more dodge would be helpful, regardless of what you say.. not the cure all but certainly in addition to expertise, stamina, and armor).

Now, Felhoof, read the thread and not just your own words, you'll be okay, I promise.. take a deep breath.

Finished with this thread as I merely tried to help and trolls like Felhoof need egos stroked and that's not my department... good luck with your htoc25 problems... hope you don't get cussed by healers, jibaikia... remember, take what you like, leave the rest.

And for the rest, thanks for some interesting insight and not butt hurt replies. I've actually learned something today!

felhoof
10-23-2009, 03:06 PM
Okay, Atheia, I'll go through step by step and show you where you erred:

First statement you made:

Avoid stam stacking until you get the rest of your stats where they need to be (stam stacking without the right stats elsewhere means more work for the healer and the same end result). Increase your dodge, hit, and expertise... you have some nice gear though.You suggest nowhere that he should get stamina or armor. Point of fact, you suggest he avoid doing this.


Stam stacking when you are getting beat on is useless. Stam adds hp, not armor and therefore prolongs the inevitable. The hit and the expertise just helps in other areas as well (doesn't save you but creates a better tank). I tank these just fine and I don't stack stamina to impress people with high HP (gotta have a certain amount, sure, but my stats are fairly solid all the way around because I ignore the "stam stacking" obsession - of course, I don't tank places I'm not ready to tank). And yes, I have more to do. Haven't quite gotten to the Uber level of Felhoof but then again, haven't been playing near as long.. one day, oh yes, one day! You then suggest that stamina stacking is useless, and that hit and expertise makes you a better tank...when that's really not his problem. You then say you tank these just fine (you don't) and you don't see the problem.

All of these things are 100% wrong and show that you're not actually reading his question or thinking about what he needs, or even show that you understand what's going on or what problem he's trying to solve.

I might be a dick, but at least I'm actually trying to solve the problem. I confess that sometimes I'm abrasive. But I'm useful. I'll take abrasive usefulness over cheerful ignorance any day.

Then we go to more ignorance:

I agree totally, but as you pointed out, the "higher-end encounters" would also lend to one thinking that the tank was prepared to go in such places and therefore already be well rounded.. not always the case. As gear progresses (i.e. Felhoof's gear which is quite sweet) you can afford to start stacking stamina because you have the rest of the stats squared away, for the most part.How do you think you get prepared to do said encounters? I tanked HToC for the first time in a bad mix of Ulduar and ToC gear. I did so successfully because I did read up on the encounters and figured out that I needed stamina to survive above all else. It doesn't matter if you have well-rounded stats if you die a minute into the fight because you don't understand the fight's mechanics and don't get how much health you need.

I don't stack stamina to show off. It's not an epeen thing. Point of fact, in my highest-progression tanking set I have way less health than I could, because for that encounter it's more important not to. But in neither set are my stats 'well rounded'.


I suppose.. he did however list all of his stats and linked to his armory to look at his talents therefore showing more needed to be done rather than stacking stam... but whatever, I don't stack stamina and do just fine. I was merely giving my opinion on the matter. Everyone has their own "sure fire way" to do it... so, take what you like and leave the rest.Okay, let's go with this notion of 'everyone can do it however they like'.

The situation is this: at a certain level of rising anger in the fight with Gormok, he has the potential to do a melee hit, an impale, and do an impale bleed tick. These things combined happen in about 1.2 seconds, and with barkskin will do somewhere between 48 and 53k damage.

If you don't have 53k health, you die there. Period. Nothing your healers can do will save you. You just keel right over. You can get them to put another cooldown on you - and then you'll die on the next impale, because you won't have enough cooldowns. I guess you can stack a bunch of people with a bunch of cooldowns and have them rotate along.

Now you tell me - is it better to do whatever you like in gearing and then occasionally just die when the RNG gods feel like (which is basically about 45% of the time) - and maybe, let's get another couple points of dodge so that you now only die 43% of the time (only one of those attacks is avoidable). Or is it better to get to that threshold where you can survive that 100% of the time?

That's not really a choice. You can either live 100% of the time or 57% of the time.

I'm like Bovinity, mind you - I'd LOVE a reason to do something other than go for stamina. I liked it a lot before 3.08, when druids could stack more avoidance. I'd love it if druids had a better reason or a requirement to get some kind of balance in their stats.

But they don't. And the encounters don't lend themselves to it either.

Atheia
10-23-2009, 03:24 PM
Like a bad accident, I don't want to see it but can't help but look:

Again, you're implying that I'm saying stamina is useless period, end of story, that's it, see ya later... it shows me that you're simply trying your hardest to impress more people with your knowledge (which you seem to have a lot of) and deception rather than taking what has been said in context but I can turn this around like you have, you're trying to say a druid tank doesn't need dodge or expertise and stamina will make him an uber tank. That sitting there taking hits, over working a healer, is the best course of action to take... sorry, I just disagree with that philosophy and so does most of what I've read in my short bear tanking career.

Stamina is a plus... I'd love to have more HP but I won't and at the same time give up other stats that are important.

Yes, you are a dick... see, I can agree with you on some things :D

And I already admitted I was wrong about the heroic thing... but based on his stats, I wouldn't expect him to be in the heroic 25 man ToC... was a mistake on my part and I've already admitted it.

As for your obsession with Gormok, I understand the fight and understand what is needed for it... hence my reason for not doing it quite yet... because I'm not prepared, like the original poster, to do that fight. I will soon enough and not having to give up dodge, expertise, hit, or anything else to do it, therefore, everyone has their own sure fire way of doing it, this is mine, yours is obviously stacking stamina. Congratulations.

As for the ToC25 (NOT HEROIC AS I THOUGHT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT - my mistake) I do just fine, so considering I made a mistake and already admitted to it once, I will say that doing these are ways to prepare me on several levels: gear, emblems, experience, etc.

Okay, really, now I'm bored. You're feeble attempts to distort what has been said on a whole has grown not_so_interesting. Thanks for the thread, I've learned a lot about gear, the fights, and Felhoof to say that it wasn't a complete waste of time.

Bovinity
10-23-2009, 04:27 PM
I will soon enough and not having to give up dodge, expertise, hit, or anything else to do it, therefore, everyone has their own sure fire way of doing it, this is mine, yours is obviously stacking stamina. Congratulations.

But you'll be ready on virtue of your EH level, that's pretty much it. Unless you're gemming for insane amounts of Expertise or something, you're not "giving up" anything.

And yes, his way is stacking stamina. So is everyone elses' way. Because that's just what the fight demands. No one *likes* it, it's just how it is. Like he said, you'll take X amount of damage and you'll need X+1 to survive it. That's just how it is. No amount of avoidance will save you. (Especially on impale and freezing slash!)

It's not that you're "giving up" other stats in order to "stack" stamina...you're trying to reach the stamina requirement for the fight, period.

In normal, yeah, you can get away with having fairly low HP, kinda like how I was talking about Naxx. But I'm fairly sure - maybe not - that the survival requirements in Heroic ToC 10 are actually higher than Normal ToC 25, someone correct me if I'm wrong. ;) Things change quickly there.

Atheia
10-23-2009, 05:03 PM
And yes, his way is stacking stamina. So is everyone elses' way.

Actually, you're very wrong... it's not the way everyone else does it. It just happens to be the way you do it and the very limited number of people on this thread do it. I'm sure there is a much larger number of people that stack stamina but I can find plenty of people who don't stack stamina in liu of the other stats as you guys seem to recommend.

I guess I've not reached that level of arrogance in my gaming venture with WoW to think my way is the only way... let's hope I don't.

And I need to read up more on this HToC 25 man... I could have sworn there were other bosses besides Gormok where a well rounded tank would come in handy as well... or maybe it's just a whole lot easier than people made it out to be, high HP means full clear... heh, time to go learn some more. Thanks for the time guys, certainly has been entertaining. See you on another thread....

Bovinity
10-23-2009, 05:15 PM
Actually, you're very wrong... it's not the way everyone else does it. It just happens to be the way you do it and the very limited number of people on this thread do it. I'm sure there is a much larger number of people that stack stamina but I can find plenty of people who don't stack stamina in liu of the other stats as you guys seem to recommend.

How are we wrong on this? In ToGC 25 - on fights that are tank intensive - tanks are getting hit like a truck, and many times with unavoidable damage. There's a requirement to how much HP you need, and that's just how it is.

This isn't me or Fellhoof saying, "This is OUR way! Hah!!" nor is it arrogance or the way we play. It's what the fights demand.

What you're basically saying is the equivalent of looking at a fight where you need to do 5 million damage in 5 minutes and telling us, "Well, YOU might try to get 1 million damage/minute, but that's not how I do it."

jibaikia
10-23-2009, 05:43 PM
now i have like
33137 hp
7720 armor
29.82 dodge
176 hit
21 exp
1889 ap
24.57% crit

isit good enough ?

Atheia
10-23-2009, 06:07 PM
How are we wrong on this? In ToGC 25 - on fights that are tank intensive - tanks are getting hit like a truck, and many times with unavoidable damage. There's a requirement to how much HP you need, and that's just how it is.

Again, someone who takes things out of context... and to think, I thought it was just Felhoof.... you're wrong, if you look at the quote added, by saying that everyone does it this way. That isn't true... not everyone stacks stam in liu of other stats needed to tank. Period.


What you're basically saying is the equivalent of looking at a fight where you need to do 5 million damage in 5 minutes and telling us, "Well, YOU might try to get 1 million damage/minute, but that's not how I do it."

And that's not even remotely close to what is being said. Here's what I'm getting from you guys:

Stack stamina, don't worry about upgrading your gear, don't worry about preparing to actually fight this gormok the stam stacking nazi boss, just stack stamina... don't prepare yourself for any other fights, just stack stamina... forget dodge and expertise, stack stamina... that's about as bad as your analogy.

Anyway, as I said, I'm going to give it a shot (mainly to prove to myself that it's ridiculous as I'm being told nonstop by people I'm talking to about it)... of course, as gear comes and I have dodge, hit, expertise covered and not having to gem for it (like casters who gem for SP until they have what they need, etc), I'm sure I will go back to stacking stam but I'll have the other stats needed as well.

Bovinity
10-23-2009, 06:54 PM
That isn't true... not everyone stacks stam in liu of other stats needed to tank. Period.

Actually, this should be really easy for you to prove. Find an armory of a tank who has successfully finished ToGC 25 (Maybe even ToGC 10 would suffice?) that did NOT gem and enchant primarily stamina.

Bovinity
10-23-2009, 07:04 PM
now i have like
33137 hp
7720 armor
29.82 dodge
176 hit
21 exp
1889 ap
24.57% crit

isit good enough ?

Could you give us your stats in bear form? It'd be very helpful. =)

jibaikia
10-23-2009, 07:25 PM
now in bear form i have like
42867 hp
29219 armor +7k ( if the black heart props )
39.82 dodge
176 hit
21 exp
5994ap
42.49% crit

Bovinity
10-23-2009, 07:44 PM
Lot of great changes there so far.

I'd still get Infected Wounds and Feral Aggression unless you are ABSOLUTELY SURE someone else is applying them. (And even then I'd get them, but that's just my personal preference.)

I'd still consider picking up the Idol of the Corrupter over the Mutilation one. The agility is going to be superior to the dodge by a good bit.

That defense gem in the gloves still needs to go. You're looking at another 240hp if you put a 30 sta gem in there.

I'd make my next priority the T9 helm for the expertise boost and maybe the T9 chest for the 4 piece bonus, which I like...not everyone seems to, but eh. My opinion. ;)

The Relentless legs...well, they're powerful just on virtue of their OP item level (251, lol) so why not hold onto em for now, eh? =)

jibaikia
10-23-2009, 07:57 PM
running out of badges :(

Bovinity
10-23-2009, 07:57 PM
It's ok..you really should be just fine for ToGC 10...(maybe entry-level 25?) now. Go get at it! ;)

jibaikia
10-23-2009, 08:00 PM
just hope that i wont get wack by algaron ><

felhoof
10-23-2009, 08:01 PM
That should be significantly better, jibaikia; that's going to be at least 54k raid-buffed.


Stack stamina, don't worry about upgrading your gear, don't worry about preparing to actually fight this gormok the stam stacking nazi boss, just stack stamina... don't prepare yourself for any other fights, just stack stamina... forget dodge and expertise, stack stamina... that's about as bad as your analogy.
Atheia, I'm sorry, but you're not listening and you're still wrong.

The reason I advocate (along with basically any tank I've ever talked with, and any tank on these threads, and any tank who knows what they're talking about) stacking a good amount of stamina for the content the original poster is asking about is because that's what the fight requires in order to survive normally. Now, if you wanted to do some really weird raid-stacking, you could have some massive rotation of healer CDs, but that's certainly not the easy way.

The fact is that you need a threshold of stamina in order to adequately survive that fight. You can get it by gemming stamina in your current gear, or you can (as I suspect you'll do) do it by waiting until the next patch hits and get better gear and doing it that way. It doesn't really matter how you do it; you'll do it one way or another.

Or you won't, and you'll die. Or, more likely - you'll die quite often, but occasionally get lucky and then say 'wow, see, everything is great because I COULD do it without stamina'.

I don't advocate stacking stamina for every encounter. I don't think it's the right thing to do automatically. I've said as much multiple times on these forums (and been given shit for it) because it's against the common thinking. But in this case, with Gormok? Yes, it's the right thing to do, especially if you're not hugely awesomely geared.

There's another reason to do it as a bear, which is that bears get more advantage from stamina than any other tank out there. For every point of stamina, bears get 16 health after raid buffs. No other tank comes close to this. Every other tank wishes they got this benefit. That means that if you have multiple tanks of different classes in your raid, having a bear whose specialty is 'take a ton of damage' is maximizing a bear's strengths. That might not be the thing for your raid specifically, but it's often a winning strategy simply because so many fights do favor a large amount of health.




And I need to read up more on this HToC 25 man... I could have sworn there were other bosses besides Gormok where a well rounded tank would come in handy as well... or maybe it's just a whole lot easier than people made it out to be, high HP means full clear... heh, time to go learn some more. Thanks for the time guys, certainly has been entertaining. See you on another thread....There are two fights in ToC heroic that are at all challenging with respect to the tank: Beasts and Anub'arak. Jaraxxus isn't really stressful on a tank, Faction Champs largely ignores tanking mechanics, and Twins doesn't really favor a well-geared tank either (and if it favors anything, it favors boatloads of health to soak magic damage). Well-rounded won't particularly help or hurt you because it doesn't really matter.

Stacking stamina isn't the answer for the entirety of ToC hard. Point of fact, it's detrimental on Anub'arak for bears. But it absolutely is important on Gormok and Icehowl and even the worms. And if you can't clear that, it doesn't matter how balanced you are for the remainder of the instance; you won't get past the first boss.

In any event, Atheia, good luck tanking no matter how you choose to. My gut suspicion is that in doing extra stamina you're not going to see any difference doing the content you're doing now because you're already succeeding at it, and your healers will probably say (rightly) that you're taking more overall damage than you did when you had more dodge. That's absolutely true, mind you - more avoidance is clearly better for preventing damage taken than more stamina.

But for harder fights, it doesn't matter how much dodge you have if you can't take the damage that's coming out when you don't dodge for a couple seconds.

felhoof
10-23-2009, 08:04 PM
As to Algalon specifically - one thing that helped me was to get as much armor as I possibly could. Defender's code, armor on rings, amulet, jewelry, an armor elixir (along with agility)...because reducing incoming damage was really important. I also went with more agility items when possible. Ideally you'll have two trinkets that have an on-use ability so that you can use them as a cooldown when tanking. Use barkskin, then survival instincts or frenzied regen, then your trinket, then an indestructable potion. Between all that, you should be able to survive okay.

jibaikia
10-23-2009, 08:17 PM
dmn ... so i'll still get wack by algaron (10 man) ? i mean if i go in with my current gear :(

Atheia
10-23-2009, 08:18 PM
Actually, this should be really easy for you to prove. Find an armory of a tank who has successfully finished ToGC 25 (Maybe even ToGC 10 would suffice?) that did NOT gem and enchant primarily stamina.

but again, they have the gear for it... that's my point... if you have the gear to stack stamina, fine, stack it... because your other stats, as in yours, are covered.... it's not hard to understand that is it? Or are you really, truly saying that stacking stamina is the only way to go regardless of gear? If so, please say that... stop trying to distort everything I've said.... not one time did I say stacking stamina was bad, regardless... I said in liu of other stats... maybe I should say it like this: If you have the gear that allows for dodge, etc, then stacking stamina is fine, if not, then you're probably not ready to tank htoc25 (as I'm not)... does that help since obviously the other way was going smooth over your head???

fyi: stacked myself with stamina and you're right, didn't loose that much... still not ready for your precious Gormok, but will be soon enough.

Bovinity
10-23-2009, 08:35 PM
it's not hard to understand that is it?

It is because you've got it completely backwards. You're basically saying to worry about dodge and such THEN worry about stamina, which is the exact, 180-degree, polar opposite of what any tank working on progression should do.

Atheia
10-23-2009, 09:04 PM
It is because you've got it completely backwards. You're basically saying to worry about dodge and such THEN worry about stamina, which is the exact, 180-degree, polar opposite of what any tank working on progression should do.
No, you're saying don't worry about dodge or anything else, that it's all about stamina which is not quite the 180 degree polar opposite you claim I'm making but fairly close.

Every druid tank I've talked to (at least the ones I respect) have said opposite of what you're saying until you have the gear for it... every forum written that I have come to respect (due to people I respect recommending them) say the same thing... so taking a couple of guys who are unable to take what's been said in context word on this would not be in my best interest...

As for tanks that are working on progression... I'm doing fine with doing exactly what they have told me so until I come to a stand still, I'll go with them...

We're dancing around in circles and my feet are starting to hurt... have anything new to add or just more of the same broken record *twist words, cherry pick comments, etc*? If so, I'll respond, otherwise, I'm sure this is a waste of my time....

As for my stats (a work in progress... hence knowing my limits... not uber like you guys, more stam gems would do it, I'm sure)
38.8 hp
26.7 armor
38.45 dodge
243 :( hit
33 exp
5475 ap
37.96% crit
(in bear form)

Bovinity
10-23-2009, 09:36 PM
Every druid tank I've talked to (at least the ones I respect) have said opposite of what you're saying until you have the gear for it... every forum written that I have come to respect (due to people I respect recommending them) say the same thing... so taking a couple of guys who are unable to take what's been said in context word on this would not be in my best interest...Where are these forums that say that? I sure haven't seen one.

And what does "until you have the gear for it" even mean? ***You get "geared" for a fight by reaching the EH requirement.*** and this seems to be the point you're missing.

You seem to be thinking in terms of doing content that you already outgear and thus have the freedom to mess around all you want. If those are your unbuffed stats and you're doing ToC 10, then yes you really just outgear it by a good chunk and thus are plenty free to stack shield block rating if you wanted (Yes, I know there's not actually a gem for that) it won't matter that much, which is probably why you and your guild have this misconception about EH requirements.

Atheia
10-23-2009, 09:57 PM
Where are these forums that say that? I sure haven't seen one.

Go to google and type "Feral Druid tanks" have a go....




And what does "until you have the gear for it" even mean? ***You get "geared" for a fight by reaching the EH requirement.*** and this seems to be the point you're missing.

Having gear for it means: You have the agility on your gear therefore no need to add agility gems - you have expertise therefore no need to add expertise - you have hit therefore no need to add hit (really, I had to explain that to you???)


You seem to be thinking in terms of doing content that you already outgear and thus have the freedom to mess around all you want. If those are your unbuffed stats and you're doing ToC 10, then yes you really just outgear it by a good chunk and thus are plenty free to stack shield block rating if you wanted (Yes, I know there's not actually a gem for that) it won't matter that much, which is probably why you and your guild have this misconception about EH requirements.

And it's toc 25, not 10 (read the thread, don't make it up... it's unbecoming)(but yes, I do toc10 with my guild and others as well... need those precious emblems so I can be uber too) and now you bring my guild into it... it's typical... someone disagrees with trade chat trolls and they don't let up, instead they try and just belittle even more... I'm used to it, actually. As for me being "outgear"ed for places, I do do places where I am more than geared for and also do the raids where I'm pushed.. what's your point? Was there a point or are you just trying to reach further for something? I'm sort of confused... still waiting on you to say that druid tanks do not need to worry about agility or expertise and only stack stamina... I'm patient... I'll wait.

Bovinity
10-24-2009, 05:34 AM
Having gear for it means: You have the agility on your gear therefore no need to add agility gems - you have expertise therefore no need to add expertise - you have hit therefore no need to add hit (really, I had to explain that to you???):D

That would resemble something that is true if there were a current fight that had an agility or expertise requirement. But they don't. The tank-intensive fights have EH requirements. I'm still not sure why you don't grasp the fact that when a mob is hitting you for 55k, you need to be able to take 55k damage before you start worrying about other stats.

Never mind. This is just silly, you're going to just keep insisting things that make no sense and then try to be all cute and condescending with your comments when someone disagrees, so this is hopeless.

You just keep on doing normal modes that you outgear and tell yourself that you're doing it all perfectly, then when Icecrown comes out you can go ahead and outgear ToGC too and start doing that.

geros
10-24-2009, 07:02 AM
Go to google and type "Feral Druid tanks" have a go....


and I'm sure that Darksend's and kalon's blog comes up at the top :P. Kalon is the fine gentleman who is trying to spread the good word about stam for totgc. You've got the major players of the bear tanking world in this forum.

Let me try this from another side of the coin. My experience in TotGC is playing a holy paladin. If I put a quarter in a jar for every heal I cancel on the first two parts of the beast encounter, I'd have a quarter. The amount of dodge/parry/block/miss a tank has is irrelevant so long as the incoming HPS is greater than the incoming DPS. Dropping health for avoidance would likely just lead to more overheals. Druids have one of the most consistant healing profiles (warriors having a very bursty one), so playing to the strength of being a large stamina slut works out nicely.

Do the healers/tanks like just spamming the biggest heal over and over again and having the tank stack as much EH as possible? Not really. It's what the encounter calls on. Once you get past the beasts you get two gimmies after it. That's why this thread is all about the beasts. The twins are mostly magic damage and again being a giant sponge works best.

Atheia
10-24-2009, 08:50 AM
and I'm sure that Darksend's and kalon's blog comes up at the top :P.

Actually, no, they don't come up at the top or remotely close to the top... although Darksend should. Much of his advice on spec's, rotations, etc has change my game and has improved it (I have no idea nor have I ever heard of Kalon)



Kalon is the fine gentleman who is trying to spread the good word about stam for totgc. You've got the major players of the bear tanking world in this forum.If he is doing so at the same time saying that all the other stats for a bear tank is useless then that would explain why I've never heard of him.


As for the rest, to try and stave off yet another blowhard who doesn't read things in context, rather makes up stuff out of thin air, let me try and clarify my position (one that has been repeated over and over with the other two trade_chat_trolls):

Avoidance should not be ignored to stack health... more stamina is good, the more HP the better. Ignoring dodge/agility isn't good at all for bear tanks. Not being able to generate threat is bad for bear tanks (any tank for that matter). So, there is no problem in building up your stats to keep a well rounded player and as you get gear that allows you to replace much needed hit/expertise/agility, then throw a stamina gem in. No matter how many coins it is looked at from, no matter how many times the two trolls attempt to try and belittle my progress because I haven't yet tanked heroic toc25, no matter how much they go to forums and have their egos stroked about how uber they are, you'll never get me to believe their formula.

As for the fights... yes, I know... you need to be able to live through the fights.. that's common sense but there are way too many tanks who are able to reach that level and still have enough of their other stats (oddly enough, the two trolls do from the looks of their gear where as the original poster didn't.... so it's easy for blowhards to say that)... I know plenty who do not have to stack stamina and give up the rest of their stats... I'm one of them.

As the Bovinity said, I'm going to go now and tank something like deadmines because of course, I'm just waiting on IC to be released so I can upgrade to another easy location (his comments resemble trade channel far more than Felhoofs arrogance did and I didn't think that was possible... god I hope there is more to tankspot than people like them... I'll keep my fingers crossed).

Bovinity
10-24-2009, 10:12 AM
If he is doing so at the same time saying that all the other stats for a bear tank is useless then that would explain why I've never heard of him.This made me chuckle. Yep, no one's ever heard of Kalon, that scrubby bear. :D


I know plenty who do not have to stack stamina and give up the rest of their statsNo, you don't. I wish you'd stop saying that. There's no reasonable way, with current gearing, to get sufficient/comfortable EH for a fight like ToGC 25 beasts without stacking a lot of stamina. There just isn't. All these tanks that you say you know, all these boards you say you've read, they either don't exist or they're people who've never tried ToGC 25.

Maybe you know tanks doing regular modes that can get away with not stacking stamina (And I usually swap out stamina for armor/agi on normal modes too, BTW) but that's not what was being discussed here.

Besides, no one is saying "give up the rest of your stats." You really can't, because we bears get a ton of agility/dodge just by default from all that DPS leather, and a ton of armor too. Hit is generally all over the place since we use rogue gear. Just make sure you pick pieces with expertise when you can and voila. Gem/enchant to beef up your EH level high enough to survive the hits from the bosses and you're golden. You'd pretty much have to go out of your way to roll on...um...cloth or something to "give up" your other stats.

I dunno, maybe we're all just misunderstanding one another. No one is saying to go out and buy a bunch of, "Of Stamina" greens or something just for the sake of stacking it.

Your quest to stack other stats is admirable, it really is. Like we've all said, we'd love to be able to gem for a bajillion agility. If the content were any different, you'd be right, too. But it just isn't.

Stalker time: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Silvermoon&cn=Atheia)

Is that you? =)

Atheia
10-24-2009, 02:45 PM
This made me chuckle. Yep, no one's ever heard of Kalon, that scrubby bear. :D

Sure some people have heard of him, I just haven't.. if it's you, that would explain why.


No, you don't. I wish you'd stop saying that. There's no reasonable way, with current gearing, to get sufficient/comfortable EH for a fight like ToGC 25 beasts without stacking a lot of stamina. There just isn't. All these tanks that you say you know, all these boards you say you've read, they either don't exist or they're people who've never tried ToGC 25.Now you're just calling me a liar, typical yet again. Trolls go to the "burden of proof" strategy. I know several that don't stack stamina at the same time giving up other stats. This is the point you're choosing to miss or your comprehension level isn't high which is okay, I'm a product of public school as well. They stack stamina when they have enough of all the other stats to still have avoidance, mitigation, threat, etc (my point this entire wasteful thread).


Maybe you know tanks doing regular modes that can get away with not stacking stamina (And I usually swap out stamina for armor/agi on normal modes too, BTW) but that's not what was being discussed here.No, they're tanking heroic mode... keep reaching, it's starting to prove my point.


Besides, no one is saying "give up the rest of your stats." You really can't, because we bears get a ton of agility/dodge just by default from all that DPS leather, and a ton of armor too. Hit is generally all over the place since we use rogue gear. Just make sure you pick pieces with expertise when you can and voila. Gem/enchant to beef up your EH level high enough to survive the hits from the bosses and you're golden. You'd pretty much have to go out of your way to roll on...um...cloth or something to "give up" your other stats. and back to my point, you're almost there... making me proud... provided the rest of your stats are in order, which the original posters stats weren't (nor mine), using the gear you have so little faith in in one post and then change here, stacking stamina is just fine... have even said I'd like to be at the point (which I'm just about there) to do just that.


I dunno, maybe we're all just misunderstanding one another. No one is saying to go out and buy a bunch of, "Of Stamina" greens or something just for the sake of stacking it. No, we're not misunderstanding... you are pretty easy to get, that's proven...


Your quest to stack other stats is admirable, it really is. Like we've all said, we'd love to be able to gem for a bajillion agility. If the content were any different, you'd be right, too. But it just isn't. quote one place I said to stack the other stats? (that's the misunderstanding, you're not capable of comprehending the thread or just not reading it at all)



Stalker time: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Silvermoon&cn=Atheia)

Is that you? =)Yeah, that's me... and you'll notice, as I have said, I did the stam stacking to see how things went... luckily my gear is at a point that it didn't make a HUGE difference but I certainly wouldn't recommend it to people that don't have the gear (working on my new helm today, should be able to get it and my hit will be where I need it... may even add another stam gem for kicks)

Keep reaching, troll... surely you'll find something to conjure up.

Bovinity
10-24-2009, 03:24 PM
Yes, burden of proof. You're making claims that basically contradict the experience of pretty much everyone in the tanking community (You know, people who have actually done the content that's being discussed) calling people trolls when they disagree, and don't have anything to back it up.

...who's trolling?

Someone just lock this thread already. You're not here to learn anything, you're not going to learn anything, and worst case scenario is someone actually listens to you.

Atheia
10-24-2009, 04:26 PM
Yes, burden of proof. You're making claims that basically contradict the experience of pretty much everyone in the tanking community (You know, people who have actually done the content that's being discussed) calling people trolls when they disagree, and don't have anything to back it up.

...who's trolling?

Someone just lock this thread already. You're not here to learn anything, you're not going to learn anything, and worst case scenario is someone actually listens to you.


Aww, see now you just got butt hurt... and hopefully someone DOES listen to me... so they know that you do not ignore your avoidance, mitigation, etc for stam when you don't have the gear to do so... it's done by plenty of people... and I do know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. It's you and your arrogance that can't stand it... it's eating you up... that's what trolls do, little one.... so go play with your stamina gems and trinkets while having the gear to and for those that don't, being a well rounded player, like myself and MANY other tanks (the rest of the tanking world... that's funny as most tanks I've talked to and relayed the message says you must be an idiot... and surprisingly, I came to your defense and said that you seemed quite knowledgeable but just wrong on this) do the same... ciao, Bovinity... you're truly more than a waste of my time.

And by the way, I've learned plenty from these forums... Darksend has virtually turned my game around... regardless of what he thinks on this issue as I'm sure he's not going to be a moron about it and instead of preaching "You're wrong, and that settles cause the rest say you're wrong (a total fallacy)" He'd do so in a manner that would make sense, if it's truly "me not getting it"... but I highly doubt he'd say that people with insufficient mitigation, avoidance, hit/expertise, etc should worry about stacking stamina to be the uber tank that I'm sure you try and tell yourself you are (which, who knows, you may be a great tank... looking at your gear, you certainly have all the stats you say are pointless to have to do end game content).... bah, I can't believe I actually added this part... I have wasted more time on you than you deserve... ciao... going to find someone competent to learn something from.

Bovinity
10-24-2009, 06:24 PM
instead of preaching "You're wrong, and that settles cause the rest say you're wrong (a total fallacy)" He'd do so in a manner that would make sense,

Earlier:


Well, I have to say thanks to Bovinity to making more sense of the reasons WHY

Wait, which is it, again? =)

Atheia
10-24-2009, 06:59 PM
Earlier:



Wait, which is it, again? =)

It didn't take long for you to show your true colours, is all and lacking any quality for me to take seriously... :))

felhoof
10-24-2009, 11:49 PM
and I'm sure that Darksend's and kalon's blog comes up at the top :P. Kalon is the fine gentleman who is trying to spread the good word about stam for totgc. You've got the major players of the bear tanking world in this forum.I don't know if I'd call myself a major player. I write a lot, and I tend to write about things I've actually done. That doesn't make me an expert.

Googling Feral druid tank (http://www.google.com/search?q=feral+druid+tank&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a)doesn't bring up anything about my site until the 6th link, and even then it's not a great link; nothing direct is linked for a few pages. The amusing thing is that of the links, we have blogs that haven't been updated since feb 2008, we have thebigbearbutt (who hasn't posted about bear tanking for a billion years and was wrong even when he did), and a couple old EJ posts.

Atheia, what I'd really love for you to do at this point is go talk to Darksend and ask him his opinion on whether or not a druid needs 'balanced' stats before stacking stamina. The reason being is because if you've read his blog at all, he is the biggest cheerleader of anyone in terms of stacking stamina for a druid. Far more than I am; I actually disagree with him that it's always the best thing no matter what. But if you're looking for someone who's informed and intelligent who is also going to back you up on having some level of base stats other than stamina? You probably should look elsewhere.



quote one place I said to stack the other stats? (that's the misunderstanding, you're not capable of comprehending the thread or just not reading it at all)
You didn't say 'stack'. You said 'get'. There are two ways to get more hit/expertise/dodge: either get different pieces of gear, or enchant/gem for it. Sorry if we misunderstood, and you were advocating getting downgrades in gear in order to meet hit/expertise benchmarks.

I would really love to see these forums as well. Feral tanking forums are pretty rare from what I've seen. Are you talking about the wikispace ones? Or the druid grove ones?

I'm also curious, Atheia - according to your armory above, you have not successfully completed anything in ToC25 at all. Not once, not even past beasts. You've only done ToC10. Now, you've said repeatedly that you've done ToC25 - was it on the above character? Same with Ulduar; you've not done anything in Ulduar 25 at all, and only done a few bosses in Ulduar 10.

Finally:

Or are you really, truly saying that stacking stamina is the only way to go regardless of gear?If you want to do a fight where you need to have 53k health to survive a common occurrence in the fight, and the only way to get that much health is to stack as much stamina as you can - then yes, we're both saying that you need to stack as much stamina as you can, and that's the only way to go if you want to have any kind of chance on the encounter.

The silliest thing about this discussion is that if you went with the same advice I gave above - get a gladiator enchant, get the death warmed belt and footpads of silence, get a better stamina trinket - you would have enough EH to survive beasts (or should be close enough that it wouldn't matter). Whether your guild could do it or not is another issue, but you certainly could do heroic beasts on 10 man without any problem.

Atheia
10-25-2009, 12:20 AM
The amusing thing is that of the links, we have blogs that haven't been updated since feb 2008, we have thebigbearbutt (who hasn't posted about bear tanking for a billion years and was wrong even when he did), and a couple old EJ posts.

He's actually posted things recently and someone I happen to enjoy reading and learning from... read recently some of your alter ego's stuff, and have to say, I'm impressed too... disappointed that felhoof and kalon are one in the same... but hey, Sybil had her good sides too.


Atheia, what I'd really love for you to do at this point is go talk to Darksend and ask him his opinion on whether or not a druid needs 'balanced' stats before stacking stamina. The reason being is because if you've read his blog at all, he is the biggest cheerleader of anyone in terms of stacking stamina for a druid. Far more than I am; I actually disagree with him that it's always the best thing no matter what. But if you're looking for someone who's informed and intelligent who is also going to back you up on having some level of base stats other than stamina? You probably should look elsewhere. I don't really need anyone to "back me up" on anything. And I've read Darksends stuff and just because he's the almighty Darksend (which I say with respect as well because his advice has literally improved my game) doesn't mean I'll agree with him about stacking stamina while ignoring the other stats. I tanked even heroics in the begining without being able to generate enough threat to keep aggro... stamina wouldn't have helped me. Not real sure if I'm just typing too fast or you guys simply are ignoring that the majority of what is being said, I'm agreeing with you... just simply saying the other stats are just as important.... telling me that mitigation, avoidance, threat isn't important and only big HP... well, you may be one heckuva uber tank but your healers are the real heroes and your DPS is total fail... but alas, here we go dancing around again... 2 steps forward, 1 step back.


You didn't say 'stack'. You said 'get'. There are two ways to get more hit/expertise/dodge: either get different pieces of gear, or enchant/gem for it. Sorry if we misunderstood, and you were advocating getting downgrades in gear in order to meet hit/expertise benchmarks. pretty much par for course considering this thread.. you quoted something I said based on something that other guy said... gotta read both.


I would really love to see these forums as well. Feral tanking forums are pretty rare from what I've seen. Are you talking about the wikispace ones? Or the druid grove ones?several different forums through world of warcraft... you can find nay sayers and stamina thumpers (bible thumpers)... take your pick... also stuff I'm sure you'll probably only belittle because it may disagree with you and your theories... so is life.


I'm also curious, Atheia - according to your armory above, you have not successfully completed anything in ToC25 at all. Not once, not even past beasts. I've no idea... I just looked as well and it shows that I've not even completed naxx 25 yet I have on several occasions. I even got a back piece out of toc25 finally (not sure how to link stuff here on the forums so you'll have to look it up yourself), Pride of Eredar. (I just went back and it only shows a portion of it)


Same with Ulduar; you've not done anything in Ulduar 25 at all, and only done a few bosses in Ulduar 10. Sadly, that's true as I took a break due to RL issues... and when I got back, the guild I was in had virtually disbanded and all the new content was out... a fresh start with a real fresh new guild. So goes life yet again. But this isn't about measuring our [stamina] sizes, it's about stats... I could have only done Hogger and have enough common sense to know that high HP, although is awesome, not having sufficient amounts of mitigation, avoidance (you know the rest) could create a problem.


The silliest thing about this discussion is that if you went with the same advice I gave above - get a gladiator enchant, get the death warmed belt and footpads of silence, get a better stamina trinket - you would have enough EH to survive beasts (or should be close enough that it wouldn't matter). Whether your guild could do it or not is another issue, but you certainly could do heroic beasts on 10 man without any problem.I'm trying... desperately so... I'll have them in due time

felhoof
10-25-2009, 07:22 AM
telling me that mitigation, avoidance, threat isn't important and only big HP... well, you may be one heckuva uber tank but your healers are the real heroes and your DPS is total fail... but alas, here we go dancing around again... 2 steps forward, 1 step back.None of those things are important if you can't survive tanking.

I'm one of the few people out there that will argue that you need some degree of avoidance, armor, and threat stats and that things like polar gear/pvp gear can be detrimental despite having more overall EH than other pieces - but even with that noted, the important thing here is this: the person in question did not have enough health to survive reasonably the encounters they faced.

Bovinity and I are acknowledging that fact. You are not.

There isn't more than one way to do those encounters; you need a certain amount of health to survive them.

Neither one of us are advocating that stamina is the be-all,end all of tanking, though as it turns out it tends to be fairly good more of the time than almost anything else. But we are advocating that it's essential for this guy's problem, and we are saying that yes, you must be this high to ride.

Now, if you're actually agreeing with us after all this time, great. There's just this horrible communication breakdown between you and every other poster here, and that's fine. It happens all the time.

But if you're still saying that you could do Gormok with 45k if you have a good balance of expertise, dodge, hit and stamina, you're simply wrong or deluded.



He's actually posted things recently and someone I happen to enjoy reading and learning from... read recently some of your alter ego's stuff, and have to say, I'm impressed too... disappointed that felhoof and kalon are one in the same... but hey, Sybil had her good sides too.Sadly, BBB really isn't that strong of a tank any more. He advocates things like using mangle when trying to hold aggro on multiple mobs and hasn't kept up with spec/class changes very well. Which is a shame; I grew up reading his stuff, and his bear gearing guides were great. He's now gotten to the point where he doesn't write about what is good overall, he writes about what might work for him.

Atheia
10-25-2009, 10:54 AM
None of those things are important if you can't survive tanking. Yes, because mitigation and avoidance can't help with survival at all.... and you're the same Kalon? Wow.


I'm one of the few people out there that will argue that you need some degree of avoidance, armor, and threat stats and that things like polar gear/pvp gear can be detrimental despite having more overall EH than other pieces - but even with that noted, the important thing here is this: the person in question did not have enough health to survive reasonably the encounters they faced.

Bovinity and I are acknowledging that fact. You are not. And again, this is part and parcel the problem... your inability to read things in context. I have said several times that I agree that you need a certain amount of health for those fights. You just refuse to acknowledge that because then you'd have no one to belittle... at least on this thread.



Now, if you're actually agreeing with us after all this time, great. There's just this horrible communication breakdown between you and every other poster here, and that's fine. It happens all the time. I've been agreeing, it's not "after all this time". I am just also saying that his other stats were lacking too... and they were... I even acknowledged that hit/expertise wasn't going to help him stay alive and looking at his dodge, it was okay. You didn't read that, did you? Sad.


But if you're still saying that you could do Gormok with 45k if you have a good balance of expertise, dodge, hit and stamina, you're simply wrong or deluded. Do you just make a habit of making crap up out of thin air? Can you please show me one place where I said you can do Gormok with 45k health? And while you're looking, I'll wait for you to suddenly notice the many times I agree, a certain amount of health is needed for that fight... go on... (almost willing to bet you'll come up with something else rather than to admit you're wrong here... takers?)


Sadly, BBB really isn't that strong of a tank any more. He advocates things like using mangle when trying to hold aggro on multiple mobs and hasn't kept up with spec/class changes very well. Which is a shame; I grew up reading his stuff, and his bear gearing guides were great. He's now gotten to the point where he doesn't write about what is good overall, he writes about what might work for him.Maybe so, not real sure... I feel as if I have, in some ways, outgrown his forum as I've learned more by experience but I do go back from time to time to keep up with what he's got to say... mainly because he presents it as an adult, not an arrogant, egotistical prick :)

Bovinity
10-25-2009, 05:52 PM
I hate to break it to you, but the only one that has been acting like an arrogant, egotistical anything is the one person that's been getting offended, throwing insults and acting like a petulant child this whole time at people who committed the heinous act of disagreeing with them.

Atheia
10-25-2009, 06:00 PM
I hate to break it to you, but the only one that has been acting like an arrogant, egotistical anything is the one person that's been getting offended, throwing insults and acting like a petulant child this whole time at people who committed the heinous act of disagreeing with them.

my point has been made, thank you Bovinity. Now go join trade channel on your server, surely they miss you.

And for the record, it's been you and Felhoof's arrogance that has been offended because I disagree with the idiotic theory of igorning the stats that make a tank... you guys must surrond yourselves with "yes" men all the time as it's obvious that someone who can look at this and use just a smidgen of common sense and see that, although correct when the proper gear is already acquired, that your theory is moronic at best when people with insufficient gear is worn.

I've really no idea why I respond to the likes of you and Felhoof... I must need a new hobby.... associating with trolls is quickly losing its appeal.

Still waiting on a new record.

jibaikia
10-25-2009, 07:14 PM
If i take 3 point out of IM and get IW, will it greatly affect my treat (aggro) ?

Bovinity
10-26-2009, 06:33 AM
that your theory is moronic at best when people with insufficient gear is worn.I'm just floored by the fact that you still don't understand that "Sufficient gear" and "Inufficient gear" are defined by meeting or not meeting the EH requirements of a boss, not item level or "well-rounded stats". That's why your comments are pretty much exactly the opposite of the truth...you need to get sufficient EH to survive, THEN you can start worrying about dodge, parry, etc to lessen the burden on your healers. You don't set a dodge or parry goal and then stack stamina from there.

The reason, again, is that avoidance (and even mitigation sometimes) is unreliable. Even with an absurd amount of dodge, you're going to eat one of those tank-killing combos many times over the course of a fight, on any fight that challenges the tank...that holds especially true in ToGC, where the two fights that generally challenge the tank also have avoidance-unfriendly attacks. (Impale on Gormok cannot be dodged and of course neither can the resulting DoT. Freezing Slash on Anub cannot be dodged and it stuns you, so the following melee won't get dodged either, and Swarm naturally isn't getting dodged.)

There's only one thing you can do on those fights - or any boss fight, really - and that's to have the sufficient EH to ensure that you survive those scenarios. No amount of dodge or other well-rounded stats will do anything. You'll eat the damage and you'll die and the raid will wipe. Yes, armor contributes to EH as well, but generally you can't "stack" armor all that much. If there were a +armor gem, I'd probably get some!

In ToGC that "sufficient stamina" marker is set so high that anyone looking to tank them really has no choice in the matter but to stack stamina. I've tanked heroic Gormok-25 with warriors sporting 50k raid buffed and they just exploded. At 57k buffed, I'm still getting that "LOW HEALTH" warning constantly from MSBT. =O (This is why I've never finished beasts on ToGC 25...I've actually tanked Gormok by myself until worms come out because the other tank gets gibbed, but that's obviously a wipe.)

And that's what Felhoof and I are getting at...there's really no choice in the matter, regardless of your gear. It doesn't matter how good or how bad your gear is (My gear is actually pretty sub-par, if you really look at my armory) if you want any hope of tanking those encounters successfully, you simply have to grab all the stamina you can.

Of course, this is part of why I love my druid...I can hit that EH threshold much faster than other classes and it offers me some flexibility.

I'll say again, we don't like that. No one really likes it. I actually wish that they'd make more encounters with damage profiles that aren't so stupidly spiky. But they didn't, they made fights like Gormok. So tanks are stacking stamina, healers are just spamming heals constantly, and no one is really impressed by it all.


If i take 3 point out of IM and get IW, will it greatly affect my treat (aggro) ?Nope. Actually, surprising as it is, a lot of math shows that generally the rotation WITHOUT Improved Mangle ends up resulting in equal threat for most people. And if no one else is putting up the attack speed debuff, you basically NEED Infected Wounds.

felhoof
10-26-2009, 09:33 AM
If i take 3 point out of IM and get IW, will it greatly affect my treat (aggro) ?Very likely not, especially if you're the one responsible for keeping up demo roar. Though I'm starting to think that it affects it more than we've thought; bears often have to do a lot of other things on the GCD that aren't the typical rotation, and imp mangle is better when you have to do other things. Still, your biggest threat source by far is maul.



Yes, because mitigation and avoidance can't help with survival at all.... and you're the same Kalon? Wow.Mitigation helps, but since you didn't actually suggest he improves his mitigation one bit early on, guess you're not on that page.

Dodge doesn't help with survival except in very select circumstances where statistically avoidance is relevant and you must limit total damage taken. Those aren't the majority of fights, and more importantly those aren't the fights the OP cares about.

Hit and expertise certainly don't help with survival, and that's what you suggested first.

And you know what? His hit and expertise are absolutely fine. They're not even low; they're right where they should be. Could they be better? Yes, but only if he gimped his gear with bad pieces to increase them. His dodge is perfectly fine; 45% raid buffed after DR. His stats are almost precisely where they should be to start tanking heroic beasts.

Atheia, you keep calling me arrogant - but I'm not the one that didn't read the original poster's question, didn't look at their armory particularly in-depth, didn't understand their problem and then decided to post in their thread asking for help so that I could give them an answer no one else agreed with. If I'm arrogant because I like hearing the sound of my own voice, answer me this: why did the OP actually listen to me instead of you? Why did you post in a help thread when you weren't going to bother actually reading what the OP was asking for or understanding what they needed?

Breadfast
10-26-2009, 10:36 AM
I love this thread.
It's been a nice debate between EH and other stats. (threat, avoidance, etc.)
Granted, it's full of trolls... I learned plenty about general tanking consensus.

Nobody wants to stack a single stat to the exclusion of all others - it takes a lot of fun out of the game. However, to clear *every* encounter, one must reach a certain EH threshhold before having any sort of flexibility.

Bashal
10-26-2009, 10:45 AM
I love this thread.
It's been a nice debate between EH and other stats. (threat, avoidance, etc.)
Granted, it's full of trolls... I learned plenty about general tanking consensus.

Nobody wants to stack a single stat to the exclusion of all others - it takes a lot of fun out of the game. However, to clear *every* encounter, one must reach a certain EH threshhold before having any sort of flexibility.

That sounds like a pretty good take-home message to me. :)

Atheia
10-26-2009, 01:31 PM
Nobody wants to stack a single stat to the exclusion of all others - it takes a lot of fun out of the game. However, to clear *every* encounter, one must reach a certain EH threshhold before having any sort of flexibility.

And I'm just about there without having to exclude the other stats (with the exception of expertise, but more gear on the way).

As For Felhoof... until you quote the places where I have already acknowledged that his dodge was fine (I'll give you a hint, first page), where hit and expertise wouldn't help his survival (same first page.... see, I'm dang near holding your hand through this exercise), and said high HP is certainly a good thing (several pages there, you'll have to work a wee bit) I'm just going to ignore you as a typical blowhard troll who hasn't the ability to take things in context rather cherry picks to start an argument for the sake of trying to impress people with some grand knowledge...

Bovinity
10-26-2009, 01:37 PM
Then what has your point been in the last 4 pages, Atheia? Because all we've seen - and all we've been trying to dispute - was your claim that somehow you should get "geared" before stacking stamina.

I'm still not sure what your definition of "geared" for any particular fight would be, and at what point you would suggest that someone feel comfortable getting more stamina?

Of course, our issue - as I've stated MANY times - with this definition is that generally speaking, being "geared" for an encounter is defined by your amount of EH relative to the EH requirements of the encounter. So without any specifics - which you've been reluctant to give - it's hard to even understand what your point is when you say "get geared before getting more stamina".

felhoof
10-26-2009, 01:41 PM
Again, Atheia - I took you to task because your first statement was incredibly useless and actually completely wrong:

Avoid stam stacking until you get the rest of your stats where they need to be (stam stacking without the right stats elsewhere means more work for the healer and the same end result). Increase your dodge, hit, and expertise... you have some nice gear though.

As for your spec, nothing really there that you could do to keep you from "dying"... not real sure why you chose to not include feral aggression or infected wounds... not being critical, just asking if there was a reason... I'm always open to making changes to improve.

Sorry I wasn't much help.. what little advice I was able to lend, I did so based on experience. Surely some uber bear tank will come along and teach us all!

Stam stacking doesn't end up with the same result if you're dying because you don't have enough HP. You're completely wrong.

He had fine hit and expertise. You're completely wrong.

He had fine dodge as well. Again, completely wrong.

There are plenty of things - like getting FA and IW - that would help him not die. Again, completely wrong.

Finally, your advice that you lent was based on experience that was well below his experience and wasn't relevant to his experience.

Now since then you've backpedaled a few times and stated that his dodge is okay and that you didn't mean that he should get more hit and expertise or stack it. Fine.

You're still - to this moment - disagreeing that he should stack stamina. You're still stating that plenty of other tanks don't stack stamina and they do fine. You're still saying that having balanced stats is more important than having a ton of stamina no matter what else.

All of those things are simply wrong.

The worst part is that not only are the wrong, they're completely irrelevant to the original poster. They don't address the OP's problem. They in fact are exactly the wrong thing for that person. You didn't bother trying to figure out what that person's needs were or even answer his question. Heck, you even admit that yourself!

So why bother replying to a help thread if you're not going to actually provide any help? Which one of us do you think likes to hear their own voice more?



And I'm just about there without having to exclude the other stats (with the exception of expertise, but more gear on the way).Good luck with that too; you obviously haven't looked at the leather gear in ToC very much.

Atheia
10-26-2009, 02:11 PM
Stam stacking doesn't end up with the same result if you're dying because you don't have enough HP. You're completely wrong.
So you saying that avoidance and mitgation doesn't help... clever, Felhoof


He had fine hit and expertise. You're completely wrong. unless they changed hit cap and how managing threat works for bear tanks on all other servers besides mine, no, he didn't have.


He had fine dodge as well. Again, completely wrong. And within minutes of saying he needed more dodge, I retracted the statement by saying his dodge was fine... proof that you're ignoring the parts of this thread... but of course, we already knew that.


Finally, your advice that you lent was based on experience that was well below his experience and wasn't relevant to his experience. Already said I had missed the "heroic" part of it and even stated to him that my advice was limited based on what little experience I have.


Now since then you've backpedaled a few times and stated that his dodge is okay and that you didn't mean that he should get more hit and expertise or stack it. Fine. within minutes doesn't really qualify as backpedaling... man, you're reaching hard for anything, aren't you... I'm actually a wee bit embarrassed for you. I still recommend, based on his original post, he needed more hit and expertise.


You're still - to this moment - disagreeing that he should stack stamina. You're still stating that plenty of other tanks don't stack stamina and they do fine. You're still saying that having balanced stats is more important than having a ton of stamina no matter what else.I'm even going to type this slowly for you as apparently you're having a very difficult time comprehending this:

If you have the gear for it, there is nothing wrong with stacking stamina (in fact, I am now with my recent gear upgrades that put me well over hit and at 44% dodge).


The worst part is that not only are the wrong, they're completely irrelevant to the original poster. They don't address the OP's problem. They in fact are exactly the wrong thing for that person. You didn't bother trying to figure out what that person's needs were or even answer his question. Heck, you even admit that yourself! Yes, I did admit that I misread it... a mistake was made on my part... but you started your attack, not going to back down from morons, sorry... not in my nature.


So why bother replying to a help thread if you're not going to actually provide any help? Which one of us do you think likes to hear their own voice more? Same question to you, why bother? If you think your almighty wisdom has settled the issue, why continue attacking me, misrepresenting what I have said, making things up out of nowhere? Hmm, felhoof? Trolling, perhaps? Other threads not interested in you right now?


Good luck with that too; you obviously haven't looked at the leather gear in ToC very much.Thanks for the good luck wishes and I have looked at leather gear in toc... apparently you didn't read the words directly after that, that suggested I was working on getting more gear.... typical.

Atheia
10-26-2009, 02:20 PM
Then what has your point been in the last 4 pages, Atheia? Because all we've seen - and all we've been trying to dispute - was your claim that somehow you should get "geared" before stacking stamina.

I'm still not sure what your definition of "geared" for any particular fight would be, and at what point you would suggest that someone feel comfortable getting more stamina?

Of course, our issue - as I've stated MANY times - with this definition is that generally speaking, being "geared" for an encounter is defined by your amount of EH relative to the EH requirements of the encounter. So without any specifics - which you've been reluctant to give - it's hard to even understand what your point is when you say "get geared before getting more stamina".

Okay, now I feel like there's a hidden camera here and some guy is going to pop out and say, "Surprise, you're on Candid Forums".... no one is this daft and capable of completing entire sentences... but on the off chance I'm wrong about this, I just point you to the many posts before I have answered this same idiotic question about gear to save myself having to type it out again.

But if that is too much for you as it is for Felhoof to go back and read things in context, I'll do you this favor and try to just spell it out for you again: Gear that increases the stats needed for a druid tank (avoidance, mitigation, hp) all of that can be acquired without having to focus strictly on stacking stamina.... I have spent a couple of days looking at tanks and have seen both, stam stackers and those that don't... looking at their achievements, the ones that have actually tanked Htoc25 already have sufficient amount of dodge, expertise, threat just by virtue of their gear where they can afford to stack stamina for more HP.... if english isn't your first language, let me know, I can have that translated into french, german, or spanish (my girlfriend doesn't speak anything else so we're stuck after that unless you need it in pig latin, I can handle that)

(I have to admit that you're closer to getting what I have said than felhoof... at least you put gear in the same sentence before distorting everything else... Felhoof just makes things up as he goes along... almost as if he's having a conversation on this thread while trolling another and getting the two mixed up).

Bovinity
10-26-2009, 02:23 PM
See, there you go again. You're not giving any specifics or explaining your point, and you just try to hide behind, "You're so duuuuuuumb." comments.

I'm not sure you have a point, you're just disagreeing to disagree now.

felhoof
10-26-2009, 02:31 PM
So you saying that avoidance and mitgation doesn't help... clever, FelhoofYes, I am saying that if you don't have enough HP to survive an encounter, getting more avoidance and mitigation doesn't help. That's not a hard concept. If you don't have enough HP...getting more dodge won't help you have more HP. I'm confused why this is so difficult for you to accept.

unless they changed hit cap and how managing threat works for bear tanks on all other servers besides mine, no, he didn't have.His threat is fine. He mentions not having any problems with threat. Why do you think you need hit and expertise, anyway? Do you think you'll instantly die if you aren't at the dodge cap for expertise or if you can possibly miss an attack?


And within minutes of saying he needed more dodge, I retracted the statement by saying his dodge was fine... proof that you're ignoring the parts of this thread... but of course, we already knew that.You still haven't detracted the hit/expertise part. You're still wrong about that, and you're still - right now! - suggesting that more dodge would somehow make him survive better.


Already said I had missed the "heroic" part of it and even stated to him that my advice was limited based on what little experience I have.Right - so why bother replying? What, exactly, did you think you were going to be helping him with?


within minutes doesn't really qualify as backpedaling... man, you're reaching hard for anything, aren't you... I'm actually a wee bit embarrassed for you. I still recommend, based on his original post, he needed more hit and expertise.And you're still utterly wrong.


I'm even going to type this slowly for you as apparently you're having a very difficult time comprehending this:

If you have the gear for it, there is nothing wrong with stacking stamina (in fact, I am now with my recent gear upgrades that put me well over hit and at 44% dodge).Okay, and I'll say it slowly too:

Hit and expertise are completely irrelevant compared to having enough health and armor for a fight. Your implication is that if you don't have enough hit and expertise, you should gem/enchant/gear for it regardless of your stamina.

And that is wrong. Totally, completely, wrong.


Yes, I did admit that I misread it... a mistake was made on my part... but you started your attack, not going to back down from morons, sorry... not in my nature.The difference is that I've stated that you're simply ignorant and wrong. That's not a personal attack; it's arguing against what you're actually saying. You've gone directly to ad hominem attacks because the actual argument that I"m presenting? Is correct.


Same question to you, why bother? If you think your almighty wisdom has settled the issue, why continue attacking me, misrepresenting what I have said, making things up out of nowhere? Hmm, felhoof? Trolling, perhaps? Other threads not interested in you right now? Waiting on builds. Also, I don't want anyone to think for a second that following your advice would result in good success. If everyone reads this thread and sees how bad your advice is, my posting will have value.


Thanks for the good luck wishes and I have looked at leather gear in toc... apparently you didn't read the words directly after that, that suggested I was working on getting more gear.... typical.I was saying that if you're expecting to get more expertise in ToC, you're sadly mistaken. There just isn't that much gear with expertise. You're going to have a hard time getting close to the dodge cap for it as you get better gear. Which means for you you'll have to decide on either using the upgrades at all (as you'll lose a lot of expertise) or regemming everything to have expertise as you upgrade. Neither is optimal. Neither is necessary.

Atheia
10-26-2009, 02:35 PM
See, there you go again. You're not giving any specifics or explaining your point, and you just try to hide behind, "You're so duuuuuuumb." comments.

I'm not sure you have a point, you're just disagreeing to disagree now.
And the fact that you're missing my point would lend to an approrpiate response of "You're so duuuuuuumb". Amazing, absolutely amazing.

Okay, Bovinity, I'll bite, what do you need to be more specific since you're not getting that with increased stats on gear means increased stats for the character (i.e. + hit raises hit - +agility raises dodge - +armor raises armor - +plus attack power raises attack power [this is incredible... just floored as I type this out] - +expertise raises expertise)....

felhoof
10-26-2009, 02:36 PM
But if that is too much for you as it is for Felhoof to go back and read things in context, I'll do you this favor and try to just spell it out for you again: Gear that increases the stats needed for a druid tank (avoidance, mitigation, hp) all of that can be acquired without having to focus strictly on stacking stamina.... I have spent a couple of days looking at tanks and have seen both, stam stackers and those that don't... looking at their achievements, the ones that have actually tanked Htoc25 already have sufficient amount of dodge, expertise, threat just by virtue of their gear where they can afford to stack stamina for more HP.... if english isn't your first language, let me know, I can have that translated into french, german, or spanish (my girlfriend doesn't speak anything else so we're stuck after that unless you need it in pig latin, I can handle that)Okay, here's a challenge for you, Atheia:

Find one - one - druid tank that is not primarily gemming or enchanting for stamina that is gemming or enchanting for hit/expertise.

Especially: find one that is doing so such that they are at or past the expertise dodge cap.

Heck, link 3 that are not stacking stamina that have done HToGC to any extent. My clairvoyant view believes that in their cases, one of three things will be true:
1) They are gearing for Anubarak and are minimizing health
2) They are in their DPS gear
3) They aren't past beasts.

Bovinity
10-26-2009, 02:42 PM
Okay, Bovinity, I'll bite, what do you need to be more specific since you're not getting that with increased stats on gear means increased stats for the character (i.e. + hit raises hit - +agility raises dodge - +armor raises armor - +plus attack power raises attack power [this is incredible... just floored as I type this out] - +expertise raises expertise)....

You're just trying too hard, honestly.

No one has questioned what the stats do. What I want to see is for you to be specific about what you considered to be "geared enough" for ToGC 25 so that someone can stack stamina. I want you to stop dodging, stop with the silly insults, and just come out and tell us what you think is enough dodge, agility, hit and expertise. How much should they have before they should stack stamina to tank ToGC 25 beasts and - most importantly - **why you think that it would help them to survive more than stacking stamina first.**

That's all I want to see. Lose the attacks, lose the attitude, stop with the vague comments. Just answer the question.

geros
10-26-2009, 02:43 PM
The conventinal wisdom for all tank classes since patchwerk 1.0 (this is the first real fight where tank deaths became an issue, maybe twin emps) has been this in terms of gearing priority for an encounter:

Stack EH to survive a normal healer rotation > Stack threat stats to keep DPS from being threat capped > Stack avoidance to lessen the load on healers.

Your advice is the exact opposite of all convential wisdom found here on tankspot. 53k is as light as you want to ever go for beasts as anything less can result in an instant death from gormok. Once you are confident that you can survive all unavoidable deaths feel free to stack threat stats and avoidance stats. Stacking them prior to having enough HP just results in a tank going splat.

Ion
10-26-2009, 02:46 PM
This thread makes me want to flay kittens.

A lot of them.

And I feel bad for the original poster (though he does seem to have taken the proper advice here).

This thread makes me never want to roll w/a feral tank, tbh.

Bovinity
10-26-2009, 02:48 PM
I apologize to the OP for having a hand in turning his thread into this, by the way. =(

I just couldn't stand to risk that he - or anyone else - would heed the bad advice given early on.

felhoof
10-26-2009, 02:50 PM
Yeah, I apologize too.

I'll bow out on this at this point. Hopefully the OP is doing better in HToGC and Algalon.

Atheia
10-26-2009, 02:52 PM
my treat is at the bother line as well ><

However, Felhoof says:

His threat is fine. He mentions not having any problems with threatThat in and of itself speaks volumes... you just make stuff up out of nowhere and expect people to be too lazy to go back and read, hence my reason for responding to you... so that while you and Bovinity continue to respond and either make things up or distort what has been said, I can continue to say the same thing (my new quest now on this thread, everytime you post some moronic distortion of what I have said on the entire thread, I'm going to respond in kind with what I've been saying)....

Now to Bovinity (starting to save time by just responding to both at once):


Okay, here's a challenge for you, Atheia:

Find one - one - druid tank that is not primarily gemming or enchanting for stamina that is gemming or enchanting for hit/expertise.

Especially: find one that is doing so such that they are at or past the expertise dodge cap.

Heck, link 3 that are not stacking stamina that have done HToGC to any extent. My clairvoyant view believes that in their cases, one of three things will be true:
1) They are gearing for Anubarak and are minimizing health
2) They are in their DPS gear
3) They aren't past beasts.

Because, as I spelled it out so painfully to you, their gear has already, for pete sake, allowed them to have the stats needed... I'm over hit cap without a single hit gem... you know how that happened? I'll tell you.... GEAR *gasp*.... my dodge is 44% buffed with only 1 gem (that's for the meta bonus... I know, it's an increase in armor and you guys think mitigation is useless but I get that 2 extra stamina points so you should be proud)... wanna know how that happened? GEAR! (you're learning)..... my expertise is a bit low and no, I won't gem or enchant for it because as of now, I'm having no problem with it as it is but would like more in the long run, who knows.... please, do me one favor... if you have a soul, don't distort this and make up stuff and grab a dictionary or something if you're still not understanding....

Krenian
10-26-2009, 02:53 PM
People may wanna start behaving in this thread. Or I smell some Lockage.

Atheia
10-26-2009, 02:54 PM
Finally... whew

Toushiro
10-26-2009, 02:56 PM
topic is to long for it's own good.

Atheia
10-26-2009, 02:59 PM
People may wanna start behaving in this thread. Or I smell some Lockage.

Well, hopefully the pain is over...

felhoof
10-26-2009, 03:00 PM
That in and of itself speaks volumes... you just make stuff up out of nowhere and expect people to be too lazy to go back and read, hence my reason for responding to you... so that while you and Bovinity continue to respond and either make things up or distort what has been said, I can continue to say the same thing (my new quest now on this thread, everytime you post some moronic distortion of what I have said on the entire thread, I'm going to respond in kind with what I've been saying)....Is that what he meant? Honestly, I didn't understand that at all.

For threat, I've found more often than not that expertise isn't nearly as good a fix as a better rotation. The #1 source of problems for threat for bears is not using maul enough. The second is not using faerie fire enough.

And Atheia: the biggest trouble I have with what you're saying is that you say that when you have 'enough' dodge, hit and expertise you can stack stamina. The trouble I personally have with this is that no where do you clarify 'enough'. The implication from your personal stats is that 30 expertise is not 'enough', and 248 hit is not 'enough'.

So if you could answer this via concrete numbers: what is 'enough' hit, expertise, and dodge for ToC25? How about HToGC25?

Atheia
10-26-2009, 03:11 PM
Is that what he meant? Honestly, I didn't understand that at all.

For threat, I've found more often than not that expertise isn't nearly as good a fix as a better rotation. The #1 source of problems for threat for bears is not using maul enough. The second is not using faerie fire enough. I can't believe I'm about to ask you a question but you mentioned taking mangle out of rotation... what did you fill that hole with (please, don't make me regret this by saying I said one thing and now what I just said)


And Atheia: the biggest trouble I have with what you're saying is that you say that when you have 'enough' dodge, hit and expertise you can stack stamina. The trouble I personally have with this is that no where do you clarify 'enough'. The implication from your personal stats is that 30 expertise is not 'enough', and 248 hit is not 'enough'. Hit cap is 262, Expertise cap for bears is 443 for bears (what's that come to?), dodge is nice to keep around 40-45% I'd expect (and from what druids I respect have said)


So if you could answer this via concrete numbers: what is 'enough' hit, expertise, and dodge for ToC25? How about HToGC25?

Having that alone would make either an easier ride and it's easy enough to get.

Darksend
10-26-2009, 03:18 PM
I have been avoiding this thread because I really did not want to get involved. But because of what it has degraded into I want to leave some closing thoughts.

NEVER EVER EVER gem hit or expertise if you plan on doing any hard mode or heroic raid content. As a druid you get so much hit and expertise from gear alone that you should never gem anything but stam. As kalon has pointed out I in the past have done nothing but that. I do have several more red gems than before but only because the gear has red gems in it. I suggest getting every socket bonus that does not require a yellow gem, always have. BUT DO SO ONLY USING shifting and solid gems nothing else.

Now atheia this may sound like I am agreeing with you but I am not. When it comes to priority you said that you will gem stam once you have enough hit and expertise. I say that take whatever hit and expertise is on your gear and be happy with it because it is already a significant amount more than the plate wearers get. If you plan to do nothing but heroic 5 mans, naxx, maly, easy mode sarth, and normal ulduar easy mode, then ready my earlier gear guide written before ulduar was released. Because content was so easy I placed much more importance on tank DPS (also this was around the time cider was promoting the deep wounds spec and how tank focus has shifted from holding threat to being a significant amount of raid DPS).

This was actually something me and kalon used to disagree about. He said my original gear list was wrong because it placed to much value on hit and expertise. He was 100% right except that the content was so easy. For any hard mode or heroic expertise and hit gems just will not cut it.

felhoof
10-26-2009, 03:26 PM
I can't believe I'm about to ask you a question but you mentioned taking mangle out of rotation... what did you fill that hole with (please, don't make me regret this by saying I said one thing and now what I just said)I don't think I've ever mentioned taking mangle out of the rotation. I've mentioned dropping imp mangle in favor of other things. If I did mention that, my apologies; that wasn't my intent.

The standard rotation for threat is mangle when it's up, FF when it's up, then lacerate or swipe depending on how long the lacerate stack has to refresh. A general good rule of thumb is that unless you need to do maximum DPS, you should not lacerate for maximum threat if your stack will likely fall off after around 45 seconds for some reason (phase change, boss ability, whatever).

The trick to the above is that in all cases, you should be mauling. There should be no time where you are not mauling. If you berserk, if you demo roar, if you taunt - you should be mauling.


Hit cap is 262, Expertise cap for bears is 443 for bears (what's that come to?), dodge is nice to keep around 40-45% I'd expect (and from what druids I respect have said)Okay. Here's an exercise for you. Use nothing but ToC gear - any ToC gear you like - and try and get to the hit and expertise cap.

Then let us know what that gear looks like.

The problem I'm alluding to is that unless you don't take upgrades your expertise is going to be fairly low. This is because there just isn't that much expertise on good gear out there. here's a list of all expertise leather from ToC (http://www.wowhead.com/?items=4.2&filter=minle=232;ub=11;si=2;cr=117;crs=1;crv=0), Ony and the like. Of these pieces two are from heroic Ulduar. 5 are headpieces and are upgrades to each other. Then there are the boots, which are great - but there are better in 25 man. And even with the helm and boots, you're only looking at 137 expertise rating total.

The jewelry's no help either. Here's a list of all usable druid armor items with expertise. (http://www.wowhead.com/?items=4&filter=minle=232;ub=11;si=2;cr=117;crs=1;crv=0)The re's two necks that's not as good as the best neck, a cloak which isn't the best cloak that you can get (though that requires insanity), and...a dps trinket. Even using that bad neck and the cloak, you're up to 226 total expertise rating, well below that 443 value.

At that point you're actually choosing items that aren't as good as you can have so that you can get expertise. You've missed out on Arbiter's Muse and Icescale Boots. That's possibly okay, but it's not great.