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Zethar
10-22-2009, 08:19 PM
So I tested this evening in heroic ToC(25) using two fast tanking weapons with the change to ToT and the threat was actually pretty good. I unfortunately haven't gotten my hands on some of the new slow axes (stupid rogues), and if threat would be even better with those.

Has anyone else tested fast/fast? Or even slow slow with the new 245/258 loots?

Satorri
10-23-2009, 06:33 AM
O.o

Change to ToT? Did I miss something?

Vah
10-23-2009, 06:52 AM
A DK named Spyte with the guild Angry has been running dual wield frost since mid-ulduar i believe. He would probably be a good source for that information.

In my own opinion, using 2.6 DPS weapons would be more loss than a gain. Let's be honest, if you have threat issues as a DK in any of the 4 specs (2 for frost), then you're doing something wrong.
That brings me to this point: Why would you sacrifice the rather large amount of tanking/survival stats for a small increase in threat?

Spyte's weapons provide:
98 Strength (24 parry rating) (196AP)
194 Stamina
61 Defense rating
29 Dodge Rating
59 Parry Rating
40 Expertise Rating

Your current weapons provide:
522 Armor
94 Strength (23.5 parry) (188 AP)
214 Stamina
58 Defense rating
18 Dodge rating
33 Parry rating
23 Hit rating

Compare this to stats from a 258 2.6 weapon:
Hellscream Slicer - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47475)

116 Agility (232 Armor)
192 Stamina
88 Hit rating
144 AP
88 Haste rating


Difference of your stats if you switched to the DPS/slow weapons-
-290 Armor
-22 Stamina
-44 AP (Which the Str is also buffed by kings so this value would be higher)
-58 Defense Rating
-55 (Parry from weapon + from Strength, which this value will be higher with kings)
+.5% dodge (Approx the difference between the dodge you lose from fast weapon but get with agi from the DPS/258 weapon)
+55 Hit rating
+88 Haste rating
+ Actual Weapon DPS (20 MH, 28 OH)
If a TPS increase is 'needed' then you would lose these tanking stats.


IMO, running MH 2.6 DPS weapon + fast OH tanking weapon would be the best in 3.3.
Blood and Glory - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=48699)

58 Agility (116 Armor)
202 Stamina
58 Strength (14.5 Parry)
32 Defense Rating
29 Dodge Rating
37 Parry Rating
44 Haste Rating
72 AP
44 Hit Rating

Vah
10-23-2009, 06:56 AM
O.o

Change to ToT? Did I miss something?


'Threat of Thassarian now also affects Rune Strike.'

Satorri
10-23-2009, 07:03 AM
Oh, sorry, old news, I thought something new was meant.



I don't see how that change means something wildly different to fast/fast weapon setups. No doubt it's good for everyone, but the value of RS varies less than you may think with weapon speed, as faster swings can use more procs (if they're available, depends on gear) though they hit a shade lighter.


The benefit of slow vs fast is pretty easy to chart. It lines up fairly well with the tier steps. Strictly in terms of threat, a slow weapon will match a fast weapon that is a tier higher in level for weapon damage contribution. Often times the trade to use a fast weapon is not to get better threat, but to play down the scale to higher survival value at the expense of some threat. Even doing so will not break your threat, not by a long shot. If you're having threat problems though, then you may not be able to afford the increased survival value.

Sterbefall
10-23-2009, 10:44 AM
Vah, you're overlooking the fact that Obliterate and Frost Strike are based on weapon damage, not DPS. While Rune Strike TPS shouldn't change too significantly (hitting for less can be made up for by hitting more often assuming high avoidance and sufficient RP generation), your two other main threat generators hit for far less.

If you're not having threat concerns, then you're likely not running with destro locks.

Wars
10-23-2009, 10:58 AM
Based on prevoius maths by satorri, those strikes hit nearly as hard while DW as with a 2hander. I'll get the link in a min.

Because they are normalized.

Wars
10-23-2009, 11:03 AM
I can't find the damn thread, satorri, help plx. Search box FTL

Satorri
10-23-2009, 11:07 AM
The total damage is harder, in fact, with equivalent item level gear. Sorry Wars, I'm not sure where it is, but if you leaf back a few pages or so, skim titles for "DK DW" something. It was in this forum for sure. If I get the chance I may be able to find it later.

Wars
10-23-2009, 11:10 AM
Yeah, I'm running around finding candy baskets so I'll find it.

Wars
10-23-2009, 11:12 AM
Here we go:
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/42619-dual-wielding-dks-demystifying-myth.html

Zethar
10-23-2009, 11:17 AM
Thanks for the responses,

Yeah the ToT change is old news but I wanted to give it a shot and see if others have as well.

I'm not having any threat issues I was just wondering if anyone was using slow/slow of the same item level and what TPS they were getting with them.
The fast/fast I'm getting about the same threat(7-8k-tps) as I was with blood and more than what I was with unholy tanking.


you're not having threat concerns, then you're likely not running with destro locks.
The Warlocks I run with run very high on threat but they are also extremely smart in knowing when to shatter. Once the shatter has been used they arn't normally catching back up to me.

Wars
10-23-2009, 11:20 AM
I'm using the headless horseman's blade in my MH(lack of other options!) and a peacekeeper blade in my OH. I see my #s up n the 7-8k range almost constantly when tanking. The rune strikes are insane w/DW.

This is not Fast/Fast but I think having a much higher ilvl weapon in my MH would definitely make up for the speed differential. I actually get better threat with my DW weapons than a jawbone. And the jawbone is of greater ilvl than the horseman's blade.

Zethar
10-23-2009, 11:23 AM
I should of kept the report from last night but if I recall using fast/fast rune strike was something like 81% of my damage over the course of 5 minutes on certain fights?

Blasterion
10-23-2009, 12:36 PM
If rune strike is #1 something is terribly wrong it should be Frost or Obliterate

Zethar
10-23-2009, 01:29 PM
Possibly, I'm an experienced dk tank. And normally when DW Oblit/Frost is number 1, but it could be just because rune strike is now in ToT and the weapons are 1.5 speed that it takes number 1. It was something like 121 rune strikes, 88 frost strikes, 75 oblits.

Wars
10-23-2009, 06:30 PM
With more gear comes more avoidance and with more avoidance comes more rune strike. I can't see it being #1 by a wide margin, but I can believe it w/1.5 weapons.

Satorri
10-24-2009, 05:39 AM
High avoidance with dual-striking fast weapon RS's, especially if glyphed, I could see that climbing very fast. Doubly so depending on whether or not you have FS or OB glyphed.

On the PTR I played around with my set for a funny build I was trying out. I resocketed gear and swapped my set around and managed to push almost 70% avoidance without raid buffs. As Unholy, with Dirge and 3/3 SoB, I couldn't get enough RP to cast a single Death Coil I was RS'ing on every swing (which was a problem for a spec designed around spell stacking). I haven't done it yet, but I was curious to see what happened if I used that spec with a dual wield Frost spec. I figure if I found the right balance of fast and slow weapons I could make RS a ridiculous threat machine (the best balance at that point may very well be fast/fast to catch all the procs, but I suspect a 2.0 main-hand would be optimal).