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View Full Version : (3.2) State of the Death Knight - Current Specs/Styles



Satorri
10-22-2009, 07:24 AM
That poor http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/40694-death-knight-aoe-spec-mt-spec-rotations.html thread has been beaten to death and fallen out of relevance. In addition the author has stopped posting, so it will not be updated again.

As the thread was quite popular though, I wanted to resurrect it, in a form. I'll post up a brief description of the current state of each major spec (i.e. Blood, Frost, Unholy) along with mine and any other specs that have been vetted and applied. I'll also briefly highlight what the style and spec bring as far as unique buffs and roughly how each style is played.

**Major Disclaimer: the DK class is open to a LOT of personal choices and adjustments to playstyle, each person will do things slightly different more often than not. Anything presented here is just one of those options.**



================================================== =============
All Death Knight Tanks will be assumed to be using the "Holy Trinity of DK Tanking" 5/5/5: Blade Barrier (5/5), Toughness (5/5), Anticipation (5/5). Most DK tanks will also take Improved Icy Touch for survival (unless your team specifically has someone else responsible for the full de-hasting debuff), and will take Bladed Armor (5/5) for threat. As these are readily available to all tanks, they will not be referenced within individual builds.


================================================== =============Blood

The Blood style is characterized by primarily physical damage for threat, and a survival style that relies on very high health and health restoring abilities.

Unique Survival Skills:
Will of the Necropolis = reminiscent of the old Ardent Defender for Paladins, this ability will reduce an incoming hit that takes the tank below 35% health by 5/10/15% once every 15 seconds (provided the hit deals more than 5% of the tank's total health).

Vampiric Blood = usually referred to as Vamp Blood. This ability is the signature active cooldown of Blood tanks. It has a 10 second duration (15 sec with glyph) and a 1 min cooldown. While active it increases the health of the DK by 15% and increases the effect of all heals on the DK by 35% (both self-heals and heals from other players apply).

Spell Deflection = this ability has a chance equal to your parry chance to reduce incoming non-periodic (i.e. *not* DoT's or Auras) spell damage hits by 15/30/45%.

Blood also relies on a variety of self-heals which may include some of the following depending on spec: Improved Death Strike, Rune Tap, Mark of Blood, Improved Blood Presence, Bloodworms.

Typical Threat Styles:
Blood spec relies on physical damage primarily, and sports passive crit buffing and armor penetration to increase that effectiveness. The standard style will use Death Rune Mastery to exchange Frost/Unholy rune pairs for Death runes to allow the DK to use single Blood rune abilities (Heart Strike primarily) continuously.

Typical play style will involve maintaining both diseases at all times, using Heart Strike heavily on single targets, Blood Boil and Death and Decay on multiple targets, and using Death Strike frequently to exchange runes and heal the tank.

Popular Glyphs:
Survival = Vampiric Blood, Rune Tap
Threat = Rune Strike, Death Strike, Death and Decay, Dark Death
Utility = Disease

Popular Specs:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcEMqI0IsbobosxhxZ0gh0o)
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcEMVh0Isbofosx0xZ0gh0x:LdG)
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcE0qIhIsbobssxhxZ0g:idG)


================================================== =============Frost
The Frost style is characterized by fewer large hits and heavy amounts of Frost damage. The survival tools of Frost are the most balanced of the trees, though it also sports the strongest passive survival buffs. Frost is currently the only tree to carry talents to expressly support dual wielding.

Unique Survival Skills:
Acclimation = a different take on anti-magic defense. When the tank is hit with any sort of magic damage, Acclimation has a 10/20/30% chance to apply a stack of a resistance against that school of magic for 18 seconds. Each stack is worth 50 resistance, and it can stack up to 3 times with no cooldown.

Unbreakable Armor = the characteristic cooldown of the Frost tree. This ability grants 25% additional armor (30% glyphed), and 10% additional Strength (which also trickles down to parry chance) for 20 seconds on a 1 minute cooldown.

Improved Frost Presence = this talent increases the passive damage reduction granted by Frost Presence by 1/2% (to 9/10% total).

Frigid Dreadplate = increases the passive chance all mobs have to miss you by 1/2/3%.

Typical Threat Styles:
The Frost style can use either 1 or 2 disease-based styles to generate threat. A 1-disease style relies on the fact that Frost Fever is all that is required to get the full 15% damage increase from Tundra Stalker, and that Howling Blast, Blood Boil, Frost Strike, and Rune Strike do not require both diseases to do full damage (Blood Boil does full damage with only 1 disease present). A 2-disease style is a little less clean and easy for maintaining because of the rune combinations required, but because of the increase gained in Blood Strike and Obliterate damage, it can yield stronger threat results on single or small group pulls. In general, Frost relies on heavy use of Obliterate to trigger the Rime talent for free Howling Blast casts. If dual wielding, the Threat of Thassarian talent allows Blood Strike, Obliterate, Frost Strike, Rune Strike, and Plague Strike to all hit with both weapons. Note: each strike will consist of two hits, but there is a single hit roll for both. Each strike of an Obliterate also appears to have a separate chance to trigger Rime. It is somewhat less common for Frost tanks to take Icy Talons as it is an expensive investment and is generally easily supplied by the raid team.

Popular Glyphs:
Survival = Unbreakable Armor
Threat = Rune Strike, Frost Strike, Obliterate
Utility = Howling Blast, Icy Touch

Popular Specs:
(2H) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EGZhxx0AdIoczbuzAo0x)
(2H) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcE0qIhIsbobssxhxZ0g:idG)
(DW) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EbZhxe0AbI0c0fuzAo0x)
(DW) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EhZhxe0AoI0c0fuzAo0x)
(DW) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EZhxe0NbI0c0fuuAo0x:TdaVmM)



================================================== =============Unholy
The Unholy style is characterized by heavy stacking of damage over time (DoT) effects and heavy use of spell damage. This spec will sport the hardest hitting diseases. The survival tools of Unholy are few but potent, primarily focusing on the use of Bone Shield.

Unique Survival Skills:
Bone Shield = this ability applies 3 charges (4 when glyphed) to the tank. So long as 1 charge remains the shield will reduce all damage taken by the tank by 20% and increase all damage dealt by 2%. Each damaging attack that lands will strip a charge away, but there is a ~2 second cooldown on removing charges. The shield will last 1 minute or until the charges are consumed and has a 1 minute cooldown.

Magic Suppression = this talent reduces all magic damage taken by the tank by 2/4/6%, and increases the damage absorption of Anti-Magic Shell to 83/91/100% (but does not increase the total amount the bubble *can* absorb).

Anti-Magic Zone = this spell creates a bubble roughly 20 yrds in diameter that will reduce all magic damage taken by friendly players inside by 75% for 10 seconds, or until it has absorbed 10,000 plus double your attack power in damage. If the absorption happens simultaneously it will provide the full shield value to all targets (i.e. if there is a splash of 15,000 dmg hitting 10 players all at once, the bubble will absorb 75% of that on all targets equally). The ability has a 2 minute cooldown.

Typical Threat Styles:
The Unholy style uses a high focus on diseases, supported by hard-hitting Scourge Strikes. The Unholy Blight talent allows the typical Death Coil runic power dumping to apply a stacking DoT to targets hit. Combining the high power diseases, spell damage buffing, with Death and Decay and Blood Boil gives Unholy very powerful cruising AoE threat (as opposed to Frost which sports large spikes of AoE threat). That can be increased still more by use of the Wandering Plague talent which allows diseases to crit and cause their own AoE. The Desolation talent gives a passive timed damage buff for using Blood Strike, and the Reaping talent allows the Unholy tank to pick up extra uses of Scourge Strike.

Popular Glyphs:
Survival = Bone Shield
Threat = Rune Strike, Death and Decay, Dark Death
Utility = Scourge Strike, Disease

Popular Specs:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EhZhxZbghcx0zgc0t0ucq)


================================================== =============*So far I have only included some spec choices of my own. I'd appreciate anyone from the community who has a tried-and-true spec they use to please post it below and I will add it to the list. Please do not post new or experimental specs here, as I'd like to keep the list restricted to specs people are completely confident in.

Edgewalker
10-22-2009, 09:30 AM
Blood Specs I use - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcEMVh0Isbofosx0xZ0gh0x:LdG)

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcE0qIhIsbobssxhxZ0g:idG) - For Single Target Boss Survival

Edgewalker
10-22-2009, 09:32 AM
Frost Spec I use - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EGZhxx0AbI0fzbuzAo0x:awd)

swelt
10-22-2009, 10:05 AM
Good summary.

Your first unholy spec linked looks suspiciously frosty.

Satorri
10-22-2009, 10:23 AM
That is really bizarre. I even tried wiping it and re-entering it, the spec wouldn't generate a proper link...

GravityDK
10-22-2009, 10:33 AM
Good stuff Satorri. I noted you used the 3.22 no-reaping spec, good stuff. Perhaps put a 'note in 3.3 you will use reaping again'. My preliminary results are that unholy in 3.3 will also use Glyph of Disease.

lyd
10-22-2009, 11:07 AM
My tanking spec, DW Frost:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EhZhxe0AoI0c0fuzAo0x)

Major Glyphs:

Disease
Frost Strike
Obliterate

I refresh diseases with pestilence. This removes a blood strike from your threat table but it also removes the necessity of using 2 GCD's and a frost/unholy rune combo to refresh your diseases, leaving them open for obliterate, and KM procs are never wasted on IT. Glyph'd pestilence is also a godsend on aoe packs if you run a 2-disease rotation without glyph'd HB like i do.

timconradinc
10-22-2009, 11:36 AM
I'm pretty new to tanking, but this macro is very helpful:

#showtooltip Obliterate
/cast Obliterate
/cast !Rune Strike

I've made this macro for all of my main abilities, this uses rune strike whenever it is up, and the ! prevents it from being unset when it's set. With that up, rune strike is my #1 damage.

Thanks for the new thread!

Satorri
10-23-2009, 06:38 AM
So you know, Tim, the '!' in the Rune Strike line is unneeded. It was an artifact that popped up from an older time. Using the macro without it will not untoggle Rune Strike.


And Grav, I had my second Unholy spec posted, the one that uses Reaping, but it kept giving a Frost build link, like the Talent Calculator was mixing up a character somewhere in the URL generator.

Theotherone
10-23-2009, 06:45 AM
Very nice, Satorri, thank you.

Vah
10-23-2009, 07:15 AM
Unholy/Vot3W still viable?

I occasionaly ran this spec in both Normal and Heroic 10/25 man ToC.
The threat is actually a lot higher than originally anticipated as with the Scourge strike glyph, a lot of unmitigated strikes are put out without having to refresh diseases as frequently. (Speaking of single target only.)
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#Y4RY6_YtokPL4gt,36YO3e,10623 (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#Y4RY6_YtokPL4gt,36YO3e,10623)

The spec depends entirely on someone else providing a Thunder Clap/Infected Wounds as well as another DK or lock providing Ebon plague.

Satorri i know you ran the numbers on this in a previous post and it did indeed seem on par with the other specs and that was without factoring in Bone Shield's 2% increased damage and 20% damage reduction for the 4 charges. (+ 4 piece increasing uptime)

Just curious if any other DK's out there were running a similar spec as it seems Unholy would be more ideal for ToC, tho i'm still mainly sticking to Blood.

Satorri
10-23-2009, 08:25 AM
I've run Unholy in ToC and works wonderfully, no better or worse than Blood which is my norm. That said, I think it is far more complicated to use effectively, including covering your holes well. Specifically, using Bone Shield well and being prepared to cover the windows where it isn't up with other tools to keep from unwanted spikes in situations where that sort of thing is at high risk (Gormok, Anub, etc).

I've never been a fan of the Unholy/Vot3W build because it sacrifices from Unholy to get 3% more Stamina (the usual reason people try to grab the ability though it is not lacking otherwise). I understand the build can work well enough, and to a specific end, but it is pretty specialized, and as you pointed out it requires specific support from your raid. I'm reluctant to add it to the list above as I feel like it would require asterisks and explanations.

Vah
10-23-2009, 09:24 AM
The main question is, what all do you lose by going Vot3W compared to heavy UH? In a 25 man raid, there will almost always be multiple forms of TC/IF or Ebon plague, so for discussion lets exclude these.

Vot3W:
+5% crit to all strikes, spells, abilities (Dark Conviction)
+3% stamina (Vot3W)
+6% strength
+6 Expertise (which equates to about .5% more than the +5 from RoR)

Deep UH:

+10% increased damage from spells/abilities (Rage of Rivendare)
+5 Expertise
+5% damage (if you take Desolation)

The 6% Strength from Vot3W of an approximate 2000 strength (raid buffed) is 120 additional strength (or 240AP). How much of a gain in damage is it by having 240 additional AP x 20% from Impurity for spell damage? Add on an additional parry rating from this as well.

My math may be flawed but unless the 10% damage is make or break, Vot3W should be superior.

Also in regards to 'filling the holes' with UH. I'm a little confused as to what you mean and how this differs from blood? Unless you're using the idea of Deathstrike heals covering the hits (in between healer's heals). If anything BS provides a much better defense then blood in situations like Gormok hitting you with his 3-4th impale with 3+ buff stacks.

If threat is not an issue (as well as raid debuffs) then i'm at a loss as to why you wouldn't take Vot3W over heavy UH. Something i have yet to try is if the Anub's swarm dots removes the charges from the BS. Anyone know?

Sterbefall
10-23-2009, 10:24 AM
My Current Blood Spec (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#kZgDnqnQ95vIvx,IYU-3e,10505)

I'm really hoping Unholy ST threat improves in 3.3 as much as I expect. It means I'll be able to fully embrace the T10 set bonuses. As it is, I'm holding onto T9 2pc and T8 2pc to give my spec some spectacular ST threat.

Vah
10-23-2009, 10:38 AM
If your guild uses WMO, post a parse here, it'd be easier to evaluate why your threat is low. UH is not 'that' far behind blood in terms of TPS.

Sterbefall
10-23-2009, 10:50 AM
I wouldn't have any relevant parses. The last time I tried to UH tank was early 3.2. I'm one of the main tanks and the ST threat was problematic. I hate to try it again now while we're working on some more DPS sensitive hard modes and cause the guild any downtime.

Satorri
10-23-2009, 11:03 AM
Vah, the gains in AP and trickle-down damage from the bonus strength is nice, but not as big as you might think. Using the extreme example of 2000 Strength to apply the buff to, the AP coefficients are at the most generous only about 0.1 even with impurity bumping them. So that's 24 more dmg added to your effects. It's not bad, but not amazing either. In giving up Ebon Plaguebringer you're also giving up 3% crit which you trade almost evenly into Dark Conviction. Even if you have other players to apply the +13% spell damage bonus, none of the other classes can apply it to every target in range, or maintain it the way an Unholy DK can, so the off-target threat can't be second-guessed there. Rage of Rivendare and the Expertise from Vot3W practically cancel out, yes. RoR also provides the +10% to all damage which is pretty huge.

Some quick math. We'll use DnD as our random example since there are many many things we'd have to tally to get the whole picture. If our example tank has 6k AP (to keep in line with the 2k Strength, roughly), with DnD's AP coeff of 0.0475, which with 5/5 in Impurity is 0.057. DnD will tick for 465.

Adding 240 AP adds 14 dmg per tick, rounding up. That is roughly a 3% increase in DnD damage, or 1 pt per pt in Vot3W.

Increasing all damage by 10% will increase each tick by 47 dmg, or ~9 dmg per pt invested (2% per pt).

Obviously Vot3W isn't matching RoR point for point, but let's look at the comparison the way you broke it down.

Vot3W build:
+2% crit (-3% Ebon Plaguebringer, +5% Dark Conviction)
+3% Stamina (Vot3W)
+6% Strength (Vot3W)
+1 Expertise (+6 Vot3W -5 RoR, 0.25% dodge/parry neglect)
-10% all damage (RoR)
-5% all damage (Desolation)

The final equation will lose threat and gain some health. How much health? We'll round up to 3% increase in health, essentially ignoring non-stamina health. So, if you have 50k health raid buffed (keeping on scale with the 2k Strength), that will be 1,500 more health for a fair amount of threat lost.

The reason it isn't an easy choice is because some people choose to ride the threat vs survival balance closer to survival's end of the scale. But personally, if I'm going into Unholy, I want to play up Unholy's strengths, not split and sacrifice to get a bit more health.

As for the hole filling I'm talking about, Bone Shield is a strong damage mitigator, yes, but it does not have 100% uptime. The holes are when Bone Shield is off and you have no damage mitigation but your normal passive amount given by gear. A smart Unholy tank will fill these gaps, if it matters, with other CDs and trinkets. You can't really compare that to Blood as they are apples and oranges. Blood always takes damage like Unholy without Bone Shield up, however, Blood will also regenerate a LOT more health back, functionally reducing the apparent damage taken by the tank for the healers' sake. Blood will not appear to have the same spikey vulnerabilities that Unholy will have. Is it a game-breaker? Of course not. It is a necessary factor to understand while playing Unholy though.


Also, Sterb, I don't know what your method is, but I generate better threat with my Unholy build than I do with my Blood build, single target included.

Sterbefall
10-23-2009, 12:37 PM
Not sure what you mean by my method. I honestly didn't think I'd be questioned on the idea that blood puts out much better single target threat than Unholy (particularly after the 3.2 SS nerf).

Given my current gear, I'd chocked it up to the combo of +5% to HS and +10% to Rune strike. However, I experienced this disparity before achieving my 2pc T9.

Vah
10-23-2009, 12:48 PM
Sterb,
Agree-ing with Satorri here regarding UH vs Blood threat atm.
With my own personal experience with clearing H-TotGC 25 man, Unholy was not far behind blood using the Vot3W spec. Being we discussed the differences among our two different threads, the extra 10% damage + Desolation would definitely put UH on par or even above blood on some fights in terms of threat.

Satorri
10-24-2009, 05:52 AM
I honestly didn't think I'd be questioned on the idea that blood puts out much better single target threat than Unholy (particularly after the 3.2 SS nerf).

Ha, I just questioned you.

I am running both an Unholy and a Blood spec right now, with the 2pc t8 and 2 pc t9 set bonuses. My Unholy build outperforms my Blood build on threat.

That said, I don't think it's fair to generalize about Blood vs Unholy as a whole, the specific specs will make a bigger difference. My Uholy spec is pretty heavily focused on a specific concept that appears to work very well, especially on single target threat.

My question of method is two-fold, if you actually want to make your Unholy spec work its best:
1.) What is your Unholy Build, what is it built around for threat (what moves do you buff best, ScS spam build?)?

2.) What is your move priority (rotation if you use one)?



If you're interested in figuring out where your Unholy build is lacking, I can help, otherwise, it is suffice to say you personally perform better with your blood build, not make a sweeping statement about the capacity of Unholy.

Edgewalker
10-24-2009, 06:17 AM
I think you are probably running a bad blood spec or bad supporting gear if the threat values are similar.

Hib
10-24-2009, 10:40 AM
Some food for thought.

Current Armory Link: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Thunderlord&cn=Hib&gn=Brotopia)

Is the three points in Necrosis better then putting the three points in Ravenous Dead for the extra 3% strength?

I tested the dps out and both were the same.

Also anyone know if there is a mod that will show you threat on a test dummy?

derangedhermit
10-24-2009, 11:39 AM
As someone who just dinged 80 on his DK and wants to tank in the future, this was an awesome time to have this thread posted :D Thanks a lot :)

The 2nd Frost 2-H spec is a Blood pec. Guessing it's a mistaken link, right? :)

GravityDK
10-26-2009, 01:52 AM
I can confirm that even in theory (using Kahorie's sim), the no-reaping Unholy spec is very good threat. Some posters on EJ also tested it when this new spec was first being discussed a few weeks ago.

Satorri
10-26-2009, 07:29 AM
I think you are probably running a bad blood spec or bad supporting gear if the threat values are similar.

My Unholy spec is carefully designed and pretty heavily balanced for threat, while my Blood spec is farther in the direction of the survival end of the scale with a lot of the self-heals taken. That said, Unholy is pretty easy to build for threat as there are only 5 points in total that really are survival talents anyway.

Your arrogance and assumed superiority doesn't go unappreciated though.

lyd
10-26-2009, 11:44 AM
My Unholy spec is carefully designed and pretty heavily balanced for threat, while my Blood spec is farther in the direction of the survival end of the scale with a lot of the self-heals taken. That said, Unholy is pretty easy to build for threat as there are only 5 points in total that really are survival talents anyway.

Your arrogance and assumed superiority doesn't go unappreciated though.

I sense a Tekken arcade duel in the works.

Edgewalker
10-26-2009, 11:52 AM
Edited per Krenian's advice.
My point was that it is simply impossible to compare Blood / Unholy threat scaling as it currently exists except in theoretical situations (maybe in Icecrown). If you want maximum single target threat for progression or heavy DPS timers, you will still be using a threat-based blood spec. Unholy is *capable* now, especially with a reapingless spec (something I tested and used a while back, I never found reaping to be totally helpful with rotations), but nothing has changed to push it to some sort of miraculous heights. Bone Shield is still overshadowed by the passives and flexibility of Frost as well in my opinion.

Also I use this spec - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EMZ0xZbghcxcdgczz0uIq) , and keep a ghoul out like a permanent giant rune tap. I only use the spec for multiple add fights so I try to have wandering plague.

Satorri
10-26-2009, 01:15 PM
I didn't mean to imply Unholy is somehow magically amazing now. I simply said that my Unholy spec outperforms my Blood spec for single target threat.

My, admittedly edged, response was to your insistence that I must be doing something wrong with Blood if my Unholy spec could out-threat it.

Krenian
10-26-2009, 01:20 PM
You guys are arguing potential semantics. Here's why:

Honestly, it's how comfortable one feels with a spec. Edge can feel more comfortable with Blood, and by all rights, Blood, with all math calculations and whatnot, should be the highest threat out of all three due to skills and the math pushing it that way.

Satorri, you may well be more comfortable with Unholy and as such, can pull off more hate through Unholy tanking than your Blood tank.

It really is a question of comfort and using every little trick at your disposal to make it work. In all theoretical work though, Unholy and Blood are either very close or Blood should SLIGHTLY edge out Unholy. And that's just theorycraft and maths supporting my argument and the argument of most theorycrafters out there.

Kanzer
10-26-2009, 02:56 PM
You guys are arguing potential semantics. Here's why:

Honestly, it's how comfortable one feels with a spec. Edge can feel more comfortable with Blood, and by all rights, Blood, with all math calculations and whatnot, should be the highest threat out of all three due to skills and the math pushing it that way.

Satorri, you may well be more comfortable with Unholy and as such, can pull off more hate through Unholy tanking than your Blood tank.

It really is a question of comfort and using every little trick at your disposal to make it work. In all theoretical work though, Unholy and Blood are either very close or Blood should SLIGHTLY edge out Unholy. And that's just theorycraft and maths supporting my argument and the argument of most theorycrafters out there.

Good points. I personally find blood to dish our alot more single target threat than Unholy, but I also simply don't like unholy in all the time i've tested it and messed with it, I only use it for DPSing heroic anub.

So yes, while I think Blood does more threat than unholy, Krenian brings up some good points.

Sterbefall
10-27-2009, 06:14 AM
Ha, I just questioned you. /clap ?


That said, I don't think it's fair to generalize about Blood vs Unholy as a whole, the specific specs will make a bigger difference. My Uholy spec is pretty heavily focused on a specific concept that appears to work very well, especially on single target threat.I've found it valid based on personal experience (not really a good argument at all) and based on math (you can do it mathless if you consider the idea that UH DPS is balanced around having a ghoul, whereas blood is balanced around not, much like being a tank).


My question of method is two-fold, if you actually want to make your Unholy spec work its best:
1.) What is your Unholy Build, what is it built around for threat (what moves do you buff best, ScS spam build?)?Yes, I buffed SS most because it's the main nuke.


2.) What is your move priority (rotation if you use one)?Unpopular at the time, but I actually always rocked a no-Reaping GoD based rotation.


If you're interested in figuring out where your Unholy build is lacking, I can help, otherwise, it is suffice to say you personally perform better with your blood build, not make a sweeping statement about the capacity of Unholy.I'm not saying it out of spite. I loved Unholy to death but I found its threat lacking for single target. Subsequently after browsing many forums, I found that sentiment to be common (many UH tanks feeling they needed to switch to Blood to stay competitive with ST threat and stay ahead of I-win-at-omen warlocks).

All that said, I agree with Krenian. I didn't mean to start such an off-topic firestorm in this topic. I was just making a quick side note that I'd likely be switching back to UH in 3.3 so my current Blood spec would likely be short lived.

Satorri
10-27-2009, 07:04 AM
I am actually more comfortable with Blood, that's what I've been playing for the last (how long has it been since 3.1?) months.

I'm not trying to claim that one is always better than the other, only trying to corral the comments saying "Blood is better threat than Unholy."

Frankly, any theorycrafting that references the many potential methods of spec'ing with a single blanket statement, i.e. "Blood" or "Unholy" is already suspect in my book. The spec and style is only as strong as the player, and creative players have discovered more effective ways to do things than had been previously modeled.

What I'm interested in here, in this thread especially (I don't think it's the wrong place Sterb), is that rather than trying to tell people "if you go Blood you'll do more single target threat," is to give people the resources to spec and play their Death Knight well.

This is why I respond to "Unholy has weak single target threat, so I switched to Blood," with the fact that I have an Unholy setup that outperforms my Blood spec for single target threat. Not that Unholy will always pass Blood, nor that Blood will only be passed if you play it poorly. Like I said, my specs are designed to different ends of the Survival vs Threat balance.

So, really, you say it exactly right, Kren. It's semantics. Generalization is unhelpful when it tells people who came here to learn A > B, period.

Kiertiana
10-27-2009, 09:39 AM
OK, So I'm going to try the Unholy spec (I love tanking in Unholy) and I'm also going to try the second DW frost spec. I've been wanting to try DW tanking. Do you recommend any glyphs for these two specs? I've never unholy tanked w/o the ghoul though, so that's going to be new for me. I have some threat problems with my current spec so I'm wanting to try something new. I especially have problems keeping my threat when my OT is a pally. I actually attempted to pull off him when we were tanking Patchwerk in Naxx 10... my threat couldn't touch his. I used every taunt I have. Plus, more often than not it's my bf's hunter, the mage, or lock in raid that are pulling off me with their burst damage. So I definitely want to try something new that might work better. Especially since most of the time, I'm MT. Also, with DW you don't get the def rating +25 because SSG can only be used on 2h weapons. What can be done to make up for this huge drop in def rating? I go from 543 down to 518 w/o SSG. Anyone who can give me some good DW tips, I'd really appreciate it.

Nosoks
10-27-2009, 12:58 PM
I was just wondering if someone could post rotations for frost (or all 3) and include both Single target and AoE.

Thanks!

Satorri
10-28-2009, 07:20 AM
Kiertiana, thank for the inspiration, reading your post I figured out how I want to present glyphs! (Something I was admittedly holding off on to figure out the best, most neutral format). Patchwerk is a tricky fight to gauge threat on as Patch actually gives threat to his tanks, and I'm not 100% sure it's consistent across all the tanks. Gear can be a serious factor.

Nosoks, I'm philosophically opposed to DK tanks using rotations, I think it impairs us as tanks to try and follow a set sequence. Instead I advocate learning your abilities and understanding which move is appropriate at what time. That said, if people think it's valuable to do so, I will post rotations.

lyd
10-28-2009, 10:21 AM
I think rotations are something to strive for, but not to expect. I cannot remember the last time that I was able to maintain a perfect rotation. the residual variables at play conspire to prevent you from really ever being able to time it perfectly enough to pull it off consistently. So basically you just do your best to come closest to achieving it, and in doing so, maximize your output.

When people ask me, I usually tell them the "ideal" rotation, and then tell them to prioritize abilities. in my case, as DW frost, prioritizing basically means:

1. check diseases
2. if diseases are not up, IT > PS
3. if diseases are up, OB (follow with HB if rime procs)
4. if OB is on cooldown, BS BS (or in my case, BS PE to refresh diseases, which allows me to skip #2 most of the time)
5. if blood runes are on cooldown, FS, unless you are below 60 RP (52 if you are using glyph'd FS, which I do), so that you don't miss a Runestrike accidentally.

I think Blood has the advantage of having a simpler rotation, although the priority checks are similar. you still have to check diseases and refresh them, and you still have to leave room for Runestrikes on your RP bar when spamming deathcoil. I also try to keep an eye on my blade barrier buff as well, although it is rare that it ever falls off if i'm executing correctly.

Tayschren
10-28-2009, 04:53 PM
I love tanking in blood, but it was recently brought to my attention that Unholy might benefit the raid, and myself, due to magic suppression, to try Unholy.

In order to keep Bone Shield up 100% what does my base avoidance have to be at? I am currently running 59.77% avoid, 27995 armor, and a tad over 42k HP. I love blood, I am comfortable with it, but would switching give me/the raid more survivability?

Do you have to call out for healing CDs due to your own CDs overlapping?

Just some questions, many thanks.

Edgewalker
10-28-2009, 07:14 PM
I love tanking in blood, but it was recently brought to my attention that Unholy might benefit the raid, and myself, due to magic suppression, to try Unholy.

In order to keep Bone Shield up 100% what does my base avoidance have to be at? I am currently running 59.77% avoid, 27995 armor, and a tad over 42k HP. I love blood, I am comfortable with it, but would switching give me/the raid more survivability?

Do you have to call out for healing CDs due to your own CDs overlapping?

Just some questions, many thanks.

Why would you switch to unholy for magic supp?
Please explain.

Tayschren
10-28-2009, 08:00 PM
Why would you switch to unholy for magic supp?
Please explain.

The extra CD for Freezing Slash, and I was told p3's Leech was magic damage. Is this incorrect?

Satorri
10-29-2009, 06:14 AM
Well, two points of clarity, Taychren:

1.) AMZ will absorb some ticks, though it'll disappear quite quickly. I don't know if that's the sole reason to switch to Unholy. If you use it smartly it can eat a LOT on the raid and less on you (10k + double your AP, if it's eating for the group it'll last a while as they take small ticks, but for you, with being topped off, it'll go very quickly and less chance for simultaneous ticks artificially inflating the absorb value). If you have Spell Deflection you probably won't get much larger value out of Magic Suppression, though it will be a more constant amount and it will apply to the leach.

2.) You will never see 100% uptime of Bone Shield all the time, the duration will vary situation to situation as the random cadence of hits against the bone cooldown. I can tell you that at around 67% avoidance I sometimes have it last the full minute, and it rarely lasts less than 30 seconds.

lyd
10-29-2009, 07:25 AM
in order to figure out how much avoidance you need to get 100% up-time, you just have to know the swing speed of the boss. but even the slowest swinging boss in the game, with no special attacks added in, would require an impossible level of avoidance, and it increases as you increase swing speed:

boneshield has 5 charges glyph'd, 1 minute cooldown.

2.4 swing speed = 25 attacks/minute
25-5 = 20 of these attacks need to be avoided per minute for 100% uptime
20/25 = 80%

2.0 swing speed = 30 attacks/minute
30-5 = 25 attacks must be avoided
25/30 = 83.33~%

1.5 swing speed = 40 attacks/minute
40-5 = 35 attacks must be avoided
35/40 = 87.5%


so don't worry so much about 100% uptime. it's literally impossible to achieve. you may get freak strings of avoidance where it occurs from time to time, but statistically speaking, that will be the rare exception, not the rule.

Prunetracy
10-29-2009, 08:51 AM
There is no way to achieve 100% uptime on bone shield unless you have 100% avoidance.

Even at 99% avoidance there is a chance, however low, that the boss will hit you enough times to drop your shield.

The goal isn't 100% uptime anyway, what's particularly nice about bone shield is that it scales well with your avoidance. As you avoid more attacks, the uptime is greater, meaning that you take significantly less damage from the attacks that do land.

It is particularly useful for fights like Gormok where it can be up while you're tanking and recharge while the other tank has Gormok.

Satorri
10-29-2009, 09:40 AM
It doesn't take 100% avoidance to have Bone Shield last its full CD, it just won't do it every time, and less often the lower your avoidance.

Horaxe
10-29-2009, 10:03 AM
Satorri I just noticed the quote from the Nina Simone song in your sig, your even more my hero now.

Great work on the post as usual.

mav1234
10-29-2009, 01:21 PM
Sun-err, Icewell Radiance is going to be fun.

Any math gurus want to parse some numbers on how this will effect tanks stepping into ICC? Losing 20% of my dodge is going to hurt... in both survivability and threat >.<

Tayschren
10-29-2009, 09:56 PM
Thanks for the clarification - I prefer blood as of now, but I have had some guildies asking me to look at unholy. It has some raid bonuses due to AMZ, but I thought it was rather minimal. Got anub down to 14% tonight, we are just trying to squeeze out that little bit more.

Satorri
10-30-2009, 05:42 AM
I'm psyched for Chill of the Throne, honestly.

Cutting avoidance way down will make it possible for them to start making a more pleasant tank/heal dynamic without having to redesign all of the gear from the entire expansion.

It may seem like a bad thing, but only if you make the mistake of assuming this is a standalone change and Icecrown Citadel will otherwise have everyone hitting like Anub.

lyd
10-30-2009, 07:48 AM
I'm really not sure how I feel about it. from a purely mathematical perspective, avoidance hasn't lost it's effectiveness because it's a static reduction. but the fact that it's applied after DR makes me a little queasy to be honest. you're basically starting at -20% on the regression curve, but calculating the formula as if you're starting at 0%. that makes me a sad pandaren : \

mav1234
10-30-2009, 09:26 AM
I like the theory behind why they are changing it so if that works I'll be happy. I am somewhat curious how it will impact our threat, though. I just kinda feel like this is a bit too much of a bandaid.

From my understanding, bosses are going to be generally hitting faster but for a bit less, so damage input will be similar over a period of time. Some of GC's other posts have made me think that we won't really see the outcome of these changes until we are actually all geared in ICC gear because until that point we will still be getting squished just as quickly. New tier of content though so I don't mind that too much.

lyd
10-30-2009, 11:39 AM
I like the theory behind why they are changing it so if that works I'll be happy. I am somewhat curious how it will impact our threat, though. I just kinda feel like this is a bit too much of a bandaid.

From my understanding, bosses are going to be generally hitting faster but for a bit less, so damage input will be similar over a period of time. Some of GC's other posts have made me think that we won't really see the outcome of these changes until we are actually all geared in ICC gear because until that point we will still be getting squished just as quickly. New tier of content though so I don't mind that too much.

i actually didn't even think of this. DK threat is going to take a significant hit from this. 20% less avoidance = 20% less Runestrike procs, subject to variability depending on swing speed and frequency of special attacks.

Nephelai
10-30-2009, 11:45 AM
i actually didn't even think of this. DK threat is going to take a significant hit from this. 20% less avoidance = 20% less Runestrike procs, subject to variability depending on swing speed and frequency of special attacks.

You kind of summed up the point I am about to make, but the idea seems to be that they are going to speed up the boss attack timer while lowering the damage per swing. If the boss swings on a 1.5 or 1 second timer, I don't think that we loose any RS procs when compared to a boss outside of Icecrown swinging on a 2 second timer.

lyd
10-30-2009, 12:26 PM
You kind of summed up the point I am about to make, but the idea seems to be that they are going to speed up the boss attack timer while lowering the damage per swing. If the boss swings on a 1.5 or 1 second timer, I don't think that we loose any RS procs when compared to a boss outside of Icecrown swinging on a 2 second timer.

if that's the case, then it shouldn't be as bad. I still think we're going to lose threat on this deal. we'll have to see how it plays out.

Nephelai
10-30-2009, 02:44 PM
Uhhhh.. Is it just me or is the second Frost(2H) spec in the OP... kind of sort of... not the correct link?

Nephelai
10-30-2009, 02:57 PM
While pointing out the bad link I figured I would throw out a 2H Frost spec I love.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Bladefist&cn=Nephelai&gn=Merciless)

I have been back and forth on the 3/3 Acclimation thing, but it seems to me that most of the arguments against it are as outdated as Naxx. Just going off recount incoming damage reports the mitigation it is providing on fights like Flame Watcher, Twin Valkyries and even Anub is pretty awsome. On Anub 25 normal last week, due to the fact that I ran off and pulled Anub on a resurface with a scarab aggro'd on me, and due to it taking a little too long for said scarab to be dealt with... I had 25 stacks when it was all said and done... and my healer kept me alive long enough for the stacks to drop off (watch my wording... long enough.. eventually we wiped for other reasons). When I checked inc. damage for the fight I had resisted almost 75 percent of incoming nature damage... but yeah, acclimation is situational at best. lol

lyd
10-31-2009, 11:49 AM
While pointing out the bad link I figured I would throw out a 2H Frost spec I love.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Bladefist&cn=Nephelai&gn=Merciless)

I have been back and forth on the 3/3 Acclimation thing, but it seems to me that most of the arguments against it are as outdated as Naxx. Just going off recount incoming damage reports the mitigation it is providing on fights like Flame Watcher, Twin Valkyries and even Anub is pretty awsome. On Anub 25 normal last week, due to the fact that I ran off and pulled Anub on a resurface with a scarab aggro'd on me, and due to it taking a little too long for said scarab to be dealt with... I had 25 stacks when it was all said and done... and my healer kept me alive long enough for the stacks to drop off (watch my wording... long enough.. eventually we wiped for other reasons). When I checked inc. damage for the fight I had resisted almost 75 percent of incoming nature damage... but yeah, acclimation is situational at best. lol


you made all the right points about acclimation. it is situationally oriented to fights where you are taking rapid bursts of magic damage. it is not all that effective against, say, a fusion punch. it's one of those talents that will forever have frost tanks hemming and hawing. not a bad talent; you just have to remember that in some fights it's great, and in other fights it's pretty much wasted.

GravityDK
10-31-2009, 02:25 PM
If we had more free points in a Frost spec, there would be no decision about it; you'd take acclimation. The catch is there's some trade-off, because Frost is just so packed-full already.

Nephelai
10-31-2009, 10:26 PM
Yeah I have tossed that trade off back in forth through a fortune in respecs. I guess my overall point is that I have seen certain benefits in at least 3 of the 6 real bossfights in the 3.2 era. It probably also helps on faction champs, but from the persepective of a tank, thats not so much a boss fight as it is a chaotic cluster f*$ck (ok, I admit it, I enjoy it). It may be helpful on OT duty on Jarraxus to, but I usally MT that fight because I am interrupt happy, so I haven't taken a close look at the numbers for that one. I think if it continues in Icecrown to be useful in as high a percentage of fights as it is in 3.2 content, then I will continue to keep it around (though I have been thinking heavily of going dw when the new rune comes out, so that will make the decision to keep it tough again).

Edgewalker
11-01-2009, 12:27 AM
While pointing out the bad link I figured I would throw out a 2H Frost spec I love.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Bladefist&cn=Nephelai&gn=Merciless)

I have been back and forth on the 3/3 Acclimation thing, but it seems to me that most of the arguments against it are as outdated as Naxx. Just going off recount incoming damage reports the mitigation it is providing on fights like Flame Watcher, Twin Valkyries and even Anub is pretty awsome. On Anub 25 normal last week, due to the fact that I ran off and pulled Anub on a resurface with a scarab aggro'd on me, and due to it taking a little too long for said scarab to be dealt with... I had 25 stacks when it was all said and done... and my healer kept me alive long enough for the stacks to drop off (watch my wording... long enough.. eventually we wiped for other reasons). When I checked inc. damage for the fight I had resisted almost 75 percent of incoming nature damage... but yeah, acclimation is situational at best. lol

I can't for the life of me understand the RP Mastery.

Nephelai
11-01-2009, 12:57 AM
I can't for the life of me understand the RP Mastery.

It was a relatively recent change (around the start of 3.2). I picked it up when I altered the spec to increase rp generation. Its allows me to weave FS and OB's in the back half of my rotation so that I never loose a gcd (weaving seems to be the only way to do this), while at the same time allways having enough extra rp to get the rune strike procs/ams/ibf/interrupts when needed. Before I added rp mastery I was often rp starved during the back end of the rotation when the weaving starts. A free HB proc usually saved enough rp when it happened to make 100 sufficient, but those can't be counted on, and I didn't like simply cutting FS out of interrupt fights, or using a couple of moves to get IBF off, which was what I was doing before the change.

Death Golem
11-02-2009, 04:18 AM
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0eMZhgxzA0IofzbzuAo0xh:oadVmM)

this is my frost spec, it's good for AoE threat and single target..

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Arygos&n=Deathgolem)

Satorri
11-02-2009, 06:35 AM
Hmm, I've never had a use for RPM while tanking simply because I never have problems blowing through my RP between RS and FS in spare CDs. I never actually reach 100 RP to lose stuff to overflow. I use it some in a dps spec though without the added burn of RS procs and IBF uses.

Nephelai
11-02-2009, 08:35 AM
@ Satorri

Generating the rp neccesary to actually fill that 130 usually involves the streaky nature of rp generation that occurs with Scent of Blood and Sanctuary (it also can happen when things in the fight mechanics such as tank cc disrupts the part of my rotation where the FS weaving occurs. Rp generation actually peaks when the streaks of rp generation occur, but the higher ceiling gives me more flexability in deciding when and how the surplus is used. I am not sure if I am explaining this well, but the phenomena is there. Before I specced into scent of blood, however, I never had a surplus to worry about. I am sure this is spec and playstyle dependant though, because going off of recount numbers compared to other DK's I run with I tend to be significantly on the extreme end when it comes to rp generation.

Oh, and I just started posting alot recently but I have been reading your stuff for about 6 months. I am now one of the top geared DK tanks on my server, but it wasn't too long ago that I was barely penetrating the posts on here and trying balance out the information presented here with the often less reliable tanking lore that circulates on the server. (Because of the latter I am still confronted by far less geared tanks who think I must have ebayed my account because I choose to pick up a yellow socket bonus with a def/stam gem when "omg you are way over the def cap." :p)

Satorri
11-02-2009, 08:38 AM
Oh, no doubt, if you've seen the need, you've seen the need. I never managed to. =)


(also, you'd laugh how often people misspell my screen name)

lyd
11-02-2009, 09:48 AM
I can relate to the amount of misinformation that tends to float around on servers. I ran into another DW'ing frost DK tank in a 25-man VoA pug the other day. Since I am a big fan of the style, I whispered him "props on DW'ing," and he began asking me questions. I discovered that the guy thought that 0 parries occur at 26 expertise, so he "had to get to 26 expertise or else he'll get parried and insta-gibbed." the guy literally thought that if you get parried as a tank, it's like an super DragonBall-Z instant death attack. He had no idea how the parry-haste rule worked, and couldn't comprehend the fact that his belief on the matter was self-evidently wrong, since he was tanking in a 25-man raid with only 24 expertise and mysteriously hadn't died yet...

Nephelai
11-02-2009, 10:01 AM
Yeah, it seems common for those that do the research to help others, often phrasing advice in extreme generalities rather then explaining all of the details and assumptions that the "general rule" rests on. Because of this much of the server lore can be connected to theory crafting, but does not take into account the myriad details that causes those "general rules" to vary and at times become completely wrong.

Edgewalker
11-02-2009, 10:11 AM
The general populace is incredibly idiotic with tanking.
The "general rules" exist because most people don't want to research their class, come up with their own specs, or formulate their own gear choices.
It's a useful tool to have a cookie cutter spec, say "Stamina is always right", and advise people that 26 expertise is a golden number.
Is it always true?
No.
Is it true enough that it works in the scenario I just described?
Yes.

I can see your argument for RP, but I just can't totally appreciate it's overall value. I think a tighter rotation or different rotation would be a better use of the points and higher threat, but to each his own.

@ Death Golem, the DnD Glyph and Morbidity and 3/5 Bladed Armor don't really make sense to me. Howling Blast and Blood Boil are more than enough for snap and sustained AoE threat generation, and missing 2/5 BA hurts you across the board for threat and damage.

Splug
11-02-2009, 10:26 AM
Eh, most people will state the rule they follow when asked, or will present the rule when inquiring, and are quick to admit whether they understand the principle or not - and are happy to take advice as to when or why going against the rule would make sense. I find the hardest people to argue with are the ones who hold to that general rule or personal opinion as monolithic and self-evident fact, and feel that simply stating "that's the way it works" is a sufficient explanation for why they've chosen a specific strategy. Those who are willing to accept multiple correct possibilities, or at least break down and justify the logic building to a point, tend to learn as often as they teach. That makes the argument not only much more enjoyable, but more productive.

-Splug

Edgewalker
11-02-2009, 10:29 AM
I find the hardest people to argue with are the ones who hold to a general rule or personal opinion as monolithic and self-evident fact. Those who are willing to accept multiple correct possibilities, or at least break down and justify the logic building to a point, tend to learn as often as they teach. That makes the argument not only much more enjoyable, but more productive.

-Splug

Again, It isn't my personal philosophy, but how a LOT of people view the game. If someone asked me the best spec for a death knight I know I would give them a cookie cutter blood spec instead of breaking down the pros and cons of every talent and variations of the trees. The same can be said of most advice.
It's a good thing, not a bad one.

Nephelai
11-02-2009, 11:26 AM
[QUOTE=Edgewalker;310966]
I can see your argument for RP, but I just can't totally appreciate it's overall value. I think a tighter rotation or different rotation would be a better use of the points and higher threat, but to each his own.
[QUOTE]

lol... as soon as read this I thought "I bet he tanks in blood with a nice clean 12 rune rotation." I dps with that kind of build so I agree that it is effective and clean. There is just something about tanking in frost with its dirty ~8 rune rotation variations, its proc dependant Howling Blasts, and its general RNG insanity, that I enjoy the hell out of.

Boeten
11-02-2009, 11:37 PM
@ Satorri

Generating the rp neccesary to actually fill that 130 usually involves the streaky nature of rp generation that occurs with Scent of Blood and Sanctuary (it also can happen when things in the fight mechanics such as tank cc disrupts the part of my rotation where the FS weaving occurs. Rp generation actually peaks when the streaks of rp generation occur, but the higher ceiling gives me more flexability in deciding when and how the surplus is used. I am not sure if I am explaining this well, but the phenomena is there. Before I specced into scent of blood, however, I never had a surplus to worry about. I am sure this is spec and playstyle dependant though, because going off of recount numbers compared to other DK's I run with I tend to be significantly on the extreme end when it comes to rp generation.

Blessing of Sanctuary does not give you RP since (some time) around 3.1. There is no change that I can remember in 3.2 that suddenly increases our RP generation.

You're probably mistaking the effect with Resto Druid's Revitalize or Disc Priest's Rapture, but those two talents have been there since as long as I can remember in WotlK.

Also, I disagree that RP overflow is the problem of a specific tree. In a way I agree with Edgewalker, if you find yourselves with surplus of RP, you could probably adjust the skills you cast instead of spending 2 talent points to handle it.

For example, pre-3.2 where FS can't be blocked/dodged/parried, FS was a great threat skill, probably only inferior to Rune Strike. In that scenario, preventing RP cap by delaying one of the strikes by one GCD (and FSing instead) could lead to possible threat increase. With the 1.5s grace period on our runes cooldown, such prioritizing should be managable.

In blood DPS, the 12 runes/Epidemic/14 GCD "rotation" feels very smooth provided you're at 26 expertise. However when tanking, few people are actually hitting 52 expertise, so the so called "rotation" will not go as smooth - thus adjustments on the fly is essential. The problem of RP overflow happens for every tree, not just Frost.

It's true RP mastery gives us the flexibility (which can lead to greater TPS), but it seems that many of us don't need that flexibility.

KnThrak
11-03-2009, 01:08 AM
With Rune Strike macro'd to Scourge Strike and Blood Strike and Death Coil, I find that my tanking Unholy setup works by ignoring Runic Power until it goes >80. Then I use a Death Coil.

Yeah I know, really complex stuff going on right there. I bet it's actually poop for threat, but I have yet to be threatened by the DPS which don't die anyways with whatever tank, so it feels fairly ok. :)

Alastrionia
11-03-2009, 06:23 AM
Just thought I'd chime in and see what others think of what I have done.

Went dual wield frost tank, followed the standard "cookie-cutter" spec.

For gear, which as has been stated before by others, needs high expertise and hit as well as your standard health/avoidance stats to make it viable and less clunky.

So what I did was farm reg ToC and H ToC till my eyes bled, lol.
However, every piece of tank gear that comes from that has the combination of stats needed. Obviously there are a few pieces missing that you have to fill in yourself (chest, bracers, 2nd ring, 2nd trinket, sigil, neck(the one from black knight has block value which does nothing for DK's) )

Link to my armory = The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Uldaman&n=Vigdess)

Now you'll notice, as always, that the armory doesn't account for frost spec, so my health is a bit lower than what is in game. almost 29.9k unbuffed atm. And my dodge is a bit lower.

Also you'll notice my chest piece is obviously a filler till higher tier items come my way (either emblems or drops), but imo it's the best chest a DK can use to get started with (especially for dual wield frost) till you have other pieces that can make up for the expertise you're going to drop.

One thing I've noticed in H ToC, is that my damage intake is much more spiky than on my warrior or other tanks I've ran with. So I made an adjustment to my rotation when fighting each boss fight. I pop unbreakable armor, then DnD, and follow with BS and PS and FS. By then I'm able to start a normal rotation, but the initial threat is in place and the healer isn't stressed from the getgo on keeping me up.

Now I haven't raided yet, plan to, just haven't. So not sure how well that rotation will hold up in other content, but at least in those fights it does seem to help smooth out my damage intake which helps the group overall.

I'd love some feedback on both the gear I chose as well as my spec and rotation. And what's going to be the best way to keep my expertise up as the higher tier gear comes in (I know tier 9 has literally none)

Sorry for the wall of text, it's 6am and I've been at work all night, lol

Edgewalker
11-03-2009, 08:21 AM
Just thought I'd chime in and see what others think of what I have done.

Went dual wield frost tank, followed the standard "cookie-cutter" spec.

For gear, which as has been stated before by others, needs high expertise and hit as well as your standard health/avoidance stats to make it viable and less clunky.

So what I did was farm reg ToC and H ToC till my eyes bled, lol.
However, every piece of tank gear that comes from that has the combination of stats needed. Obviously there are a few pieces missing that you have to fill in yourself (chest, bracers, 2nd ring, 2nd trinket, sigil, neck(the one from black knight has block value which does nothing for DK's) )

Link to my armory = The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Uldaman&n=Vigdess)

Now you'll notice, as always, that the armory doesn't account for frost spec, so my health is a bit lower than what is in game. almost 29.9k unbuffed atm. And my dodge is a bit lower.

Also you'll notice my chest piece is obviously a filler till higher tier items come my way (either emblems or drops), but imo it's the best chest a DK can use to get started with (especially for dual wield frost) till you have other pieces that can make up for the expertise you're going to drop.

One thing I've noticed in H ToC, is that my damage intake is much more spiky than on my warrior or other tanks I've ran with. So I made an adjustment to my rotation when fighting each boss fight. I pop unbreakable armor, then DnD, and follow with BS and PS and FS. By then I'm able to start a normal rotation, but the initial threat is in place and the healer isn't stressed from the getgo on keeping me up.

Now I haven't raided yet, plan to, just haven't. So not sure how well that rotation will hold up in other content, but at least in those fights it does seem to help smooth out my damage intake which helps the group overall.

I'd love some feedback on both the gear I chose as well as my spec and rotation. And what's going to be the best way to keep my expertise up as the higher tier gear comes in (I know tier 9 has literally none)

Sorry for the wall of text, it's 6am and I've been at work all night, lol


You can farm the resilience/stamina PvP to shoulder piece and it will account for a bit of defense. You should probably runeforge your offhand sword ;)
Your spec looks fine, but as a bit of personal preference in 5 mans I'd prefer 0/2 Chill of the Grave with maxed black ice and hungering cold. Stamina armor patches are pretty cheap if you want fillers on some of the unenchanted gear also!

GravityDK
11-03-2009, 11:14 AM
hiya, just wanted to let you know I did some testing on the 3.3 unholy spec (http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t44638-sunos_fireside_chat_dk_endgame_tanking_updated/p81/#post1445801) which I put on my blog but also at EJ. It's basically a traditional deep unholy spec (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#eS0mvCvi_HUTOg,Yp3eO-,10676), I wanted to find highest threat unholy tank spec.

Secondly, the latest Kahorie sim now lets us simulate Scent of Blood accurately, and interestingly in unholy 3.3 it's not as good (http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t44638-sunos_fireside_chat_dk_endgame_tanking_updated/p82/#post1446937) as alternative places for points (necrosis); it's a net loss.

Vah
11-04-2009, 09:03 AM
With the Icecrown Radiance, Unholy goes back to the worst tanking spec imo as the uptime on Bone Armor has just been destroyed. I only see this spec being useful for a 3 hit burst scenario or add tanking at this point.

GravityDK
11-04-2009, 10:10 AM
At the moment, I agree, Unholy's threat is also weakest. If Icecrown ends up having loads of magic damage, it might have a benefit.

Vanthus
11-04-2009, 10:29 AM
At the moment, I agree, Unholy's threat is also weakest. If Icecrown ends up having loads of magic damage, it might have a benefit.

Blood will still have spell deflection for that too.

Satorri
11-04-2009, 11:27 AM
I happen to disagree. I've had plenty of luck with turning out competitive threat with my Unholy spec as with my Blood or Frost specs.

Each tree has as much to offer as any other, they just all offer it differently.

GravityDK
11-04-2009, 01:37 PM
In 3.22, Unholy does very good threat.
In 3.3, I'm predicting the other trees will to 10% more. That might not be a problem. Depends how much dps your team does relative to you.

However, combined with bone shield having lower effective uptime in Icecrown, unholy doesn't look hot at the moment. I still really like the spec though, so hope it's viable.

Lilithium
11-04-2009, 09:12 PM
I suppose this a bit of ignorance on my behalf, but I noticed the two specs you posted for frost don't take epidemic, Satorri. Any reason for/against it?

Satorri
11-05-2009, 06:08 AM
For my Frost specs I tend not to get into Unholy deeply at all. I often use glyph of HB and methods to frequently re-apply diseases so Epidemic isn't vital. What's more I spend my free points in SoB to squeeze out FS's frequently as it is so delectable an RP spend, particularly with Killing Machine proc'ing.

It's a fine talent, and one I think is easily overlooked as it doesn't apply a direct "gain +X% damage" kind of talent, but I often find it easier to go without only in Frost.

Sagan
11-05-2009, 11:47 AM
my armory:
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Draenor&n=Kurbi&group=2)

I'm currently using obliterate, frost strike, howling blast glyphs.

which glyph has more threat pop frost strike or rune strike?

Nephelai
11-05-2009, 08:26 PM
I suppose this a bit of ignorance on my behalf, but I noticed the two specs you posted for frost don't take epidemic, Satorri. Any reason for/against it?


Epidemic is great for builds that need a 12 rune rotation. Blood 12 rune rotations allowing 6 HS in 20 seconds are a prime example. While the math is great for 12 rune rotations in any spec, and rotations in increments of 6 should be cleaner in frost because the blood/death runes can come up with more consistent timing, I none the less have found that 12 rune frost rotations don't seem to fill the GCD's as well and provide less versatility then the more chaotic rng rotation that one uses without Epidemic, and the threat really didn't seem to be noticeably better with a 12 rune rotation.

As it is what I do is less of what one would call a standard rotation and more a matter of prioritization.

I start each "rotation" with IT and PS. After that it varies from rotation to rotation but follows strict prioritization rules. IF blood runes are coming up blood they get burned with BS. If blood runes are coming up as a pair of death runes, or a FU are coming up, then OB is next. This means alot of 2 rune moves which means there will be gaps in the gcd's.. when these come up FS fills the gaps, unless a free HB has procced, then HB fills the gap. When diseases are close to dropping I know where I am in my rune cd's and so I know which FU will be needed to reapply in a timely manner. RS is macro'd to everything.

Now everything I just typed dosen't look as clean as say

IT, PS, BS, BS, OB, RP Dump, OB, OB, OB, RP Dump (12 rune Frost Rotation)

or

IT, PS, HS, HS, DS, DC, HoW, DS, HS, HS, HS, HS, DC (12 rune Blood rotation).

It dosen't look as clean as these and without epidemic you can't take advantage of your full disease rotation and your death runes and still use a rotation that can be spelled out in such a simple strait forward manner.

None the less for a frost tank just prioritizing your rune/rp use, and using each gcd at the highest priority, works extremely well.

PatrikL
11-06-2009, 06:53 AM
Frost



Popular Specs:
(2H) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EGZhxx0AdIoczbuzAo0x)
(2H) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcE0qIhIsbobssxhxZ0g:idG)
(DW) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EbZhxe0AbI0c0fuzAo0x)
(DW) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EhZhxe0AoI0c0fuzAo0x)




The second 2H spec here is a blood spec from what I can see when clicking on it.

Satorri
11-06-2009, 08:19 AM
I've stopped messing with the specs because WoWhead links seem to keep breaking or misrepresenting. I'll update the links above with a different talent calculator when I get a chance.

Lilithium
11-06-2009, 09:25 AM
The HB glyph definitely makes sense for an epidemic-less spec. I suppose I've just got that talent stuck in my head from days of blood tanking. Still waiting on a few upgrades to my gear before going to DW frost tanking. Trying (in vain perhaps) to get two Quels. Call it compulsion, but all my DW weapons have been symetrical.

Realistically I'd love to get myself into a specialize tanking position with the use of things like acclimation primarily to make myself invaluable for tanking spell dmg bosses.

And on that note, does the aoe tick produced by Steelbreaker proc acclimation? And if so, would this not also aid in the fusion punches, assuming both are nature?

Looking at something like this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EZhxe0IbIoc0fuuAo0x:wTdMmV)

Aunholydeath
11-06-2009, 10:13 AM
The HB glyph definitely makes sense for an epidemic-less spec. I suppose I've just got that talent stuck in my head from days of blood tanking. Still waiting on a few upgrades to my gear before going to DW frost tanking. Trying (in vain perhaps) to get two Quels. Call it compulsion, but all my DW weapons have been symetrical.

Realistically I'd love to get myself into a specialize tanking position with the use of things like acclimation primarily to make myself invaluable for tanking spell dmg bosses.

And on that note, does the aoe tick produced by Steelbreaker proc acclimation? And if so, would this not also aid in the fusion punches, assuming both are nature?



It works with any kind of spell damage u take including aoe boss damage. my dw frost build that i use for toc/togc is slightly different then yours but is just as effective and your getting more proc chances of KM
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EbZhxe0A0I0c0fudAo0x:TkaVM0)

Pwnanapuddin
11-11-2009, 04:09 AM
Mmmmm sato, I got my 25 onyx 2hsword last night! If only they had given it a gem slot like other 245 2-handers.

Frenzy165
11-11-2009, 07:21 AM
My Blood Spec (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcEMqI0IsbobssxhxZ0xh:GpiMmV)

It works quite well for me, although im thinking of dropping morbidity. I picked it up back in uld for our 10 man to ake certain things (notably mimiron p3) easier and just havent bothered. Ill probably switch those points out into epidemic.

I also had considered dropping a glyph for rune strike. But the only viable candidate (imo) is disease.. which provides me extra heart strikes.. so i'm not 100% sure the threat gain will be significant.

Vanthus
11-11-2009, 07:55 AM
My Blood Spec (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcEMqI0IsbobssxhxZ0xh:GpiMmV)

It works quite well for me, although im thinking of dropping morbidity. I picked it up back in uld for our 10 man to ake certain things (notably mimiron p3) easier and just havent bothered. Ill probably switch those points out into epidemic.

I also had considered dropping a glyph for rune strike. But the only viable candidate (imo) is disease.. which provides me extra heart strikes.. so i'm not 100% sure the threat gain will be significant.

I can't see how the disease glyph is helping you without taking epidemic. Even then I found that using the disease glyph was a loss of DPS for me. Using the IT-PS-HS-HS-DS-Dump-DS-HS-HS-HS-HS still was my highest DPS output.

Satorri
11-11-2009, 02:32 PM
Pwna, don't you taunt me! I have been waiting on that sword forEVER (/cry, this week it didn't drop yet again).

They regulate stamina on gear so that it is on pretty much equal footing from every piece, and as sockets actually cost itemization points, the 245 socket weapons (Justicebringer comes to mind) have less stamina when they have a blue socket. Justicebringer with an epic stam gem actually will have only 6 more stamina than the 245 Obsidian Edge. With socket bonus the Justicebringer does get a little more Str too, and more crit. The ArP doesn't suck for a Blood tank.

Personally I'm after the sword to not drop the Expertise legacy of my weapons, AND to get crit with it, I'm giddy. Plus, as a bonus, the sword looks hot.

Side note, I'm curious why I've never seen the DK helms drop, DPS or Tank. I want some retconned goodness!

Nephelai
11-11-2009, 02:44 PM
Pwna, don't you taunt me! I have been waiting on that sword forEVER (/cry, this week it didn't drop yet again).

They regulate stamina on gear so that it is on pretty much equal footing from every piece, and as sockets actually cost itemization points, the 245 socket weapons (Justicebringer comes to mind) have less stamina when they have a blue socket. Justicebringer with an epic stam gem actually will have only 6 more stamina than the 245 Obsidian Edge. With socket bonus the Justicebringer does get a little more Str too, and more crit. The ArP doesn't suck for a Blood tank.

Personally I'm after the sword to not drop the Expertise legacy of my weapons, AND to get crit with it, I'm giddy. Plus, as a bonus, the sword looks hot.

Side note, I'm curious why I've never seen the DK helms drop, DPS or Tank. I want some retconned goodness!

I personally am having a love affair with my new 25 Ony Reinforced Thunderstrike, but then I am just a polearm kinda guy.

Boeten
11-11-2009, 11:30 PM
Mmmm, they do regulate the ilvl and item budget, but they certainly don't regulate Stamina. Most (if not all?) hard-mode 2H weapons since Ulduar has 2 sockets, which makes weapon from 10-H to have more stamina (provided you socket with Solid Zircon) than 25-N even though they have same ilvl. What that means is while Zircon-ed Justicebringer only has 6 more Stamina than 245 Obsidian Edge, Zircon-ed Lothar's Edge (10-H) will have 30 more Stamina than Zircon-ed Justicebringer.

Funnily, Zircon-ed Aesir's Edge can have 16 more Stamina than Zircon-ed Justicebringer. Dual Zircon-ed Shiver have 31 more Stamina than Zircon-ed Justicebringer. They're weapons from, like, hardmode 1 tier behind.

So if we're looking for just pure stamina, we should be looking for hard-mode weapons.

The downside with socketing Zircon is that the STR (or Agi for Polearm and some 2H Sword) and other DPS stats will become lower compared to the same-ilvl weapon. If threat is not a problem though, that is a perfectly acceptable gearing choice.

Pwnanapuddin
11-12-2009, 03:17 AM
Yeah so far I have the DPS helm, but no tank helm yet at all. What up with that?

I at working with DBB (+51 stam) or my new sword which I have nicknamed "Satorri's Envy"

Last week when we did HTOC, we managed to finished our first guild run with 41 attempts left which ment some speshul lewtz! And of course Mo'Kresh dropped. That axe makes me smile.


**additional info** Our stupid ret pally won it =P

Satorri
11-12-2009, 06:03 AM
Boeten, they've said they maintain constant levels of stamina on gear. I shouldn't have made the same extension to weapons.

Weapons will waffle, some of them have more Stam at the expense of other stats, though I care a lot about those other stats, that's part of the reason why I'm not broken up about not having high-end arena weapons available. Though their higher ilvl is pretty hot too.

Frenzy165
11-12-2009, 06:42 AM
I can't see how the disease glyph is helping you without taking epidemic. Even then I found that using the disease glyph was a loss of DPS for me. Using the IT-PS-HS-HS-DS-Dump-DS-HS-HS-HS-HS still was my highest DPS output.

Unless it's a gimmick fight, I have absolutely no issues with threat, so the DPS issue is moot. I generally just wait until I'm under 6 or so seconds and refresh with pestilence, this means I am usually refreshing somewhere within each rotation. I also don't necessarily use a solid rotation all the time. For instance, when I first engage, I will use IT-PS, but then I'll throw DS because it hits harder than HS so I can spike my threat early. As far as runic dump, most goes into Rune Strike.. I'm lucky if i DC once every rotation.

Lilithium
11-12-2009, 11:40 AM
Unless we're really hurting for stam, and find ourselves needing defense, will rune of swordbreaking x 2 beat out the new 1h stoneskin gargoyle rune? Personally I've gone for a bit more of an avoidance direction with my tank, choosing mitigation and avoidance over pure stam. So far it's worked, actually having impales from Gormok just miss completely, and fall off, etc.

Edgewalker
11-12-2009, 03:02 PM
So far it's worked, actually having impales from Gormok just miss completely, and fall off, etc.

I feel like you are living in a world where Impale misses.

Lilithium
11-12-2009, 03:11 PM
Didn't I just say that?

Kazeyonoma
11-12-2009, 03:25 PM
Impale cannot miss. I'd like to see a combat log report of this otherwise. As far as I've ever seen, it cannot be dodged/parry/missed

Edgewalker
11-12-2009, 03:44 PM
Didn't I just say that?

Impale can't miss. It can't be dodged, it can't be parried, it can't miss.

Lórwen
11-12-2009, 08:56 PM
I currently tank HToC 25 with a Blood spec, and really like it :)

Talent Calculator (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jcEMVh0IcbofosxhxZ0gh0h:pGiM)

I've taken 3/5 Necrosis instead of 3/3 WotN after a small math. WotN allow me to avoid about max 2k7 hp from a hit when I'm full buffed. However, those 3 points may be used in an other talent, but I don't really know which (Ravenous Dead or Necrosis?)

I think Glyph of Diseases is a really usefull glyph in raid conditions. It allow me to do a cleaner, reactive rotation than a IT/PS refresh rotation, and to do one more HS. Sudden Doom scale with the use of a Pest rotation, and Morbidity scale with Sudden Doom (and a 15s CD DnD is always welcome in AoE Threat). All of those for a good single threat.

I confess I don't like lose hit pool (it's surely a fault), thinking hp pool remain the better survival point in HL PvE, even if I change for a avoidance stuff in some encounter or if I see "main stuff" of certain tank gemmed with Dodge/Sta, Def/Sta gems, or even Exp/Sta and Hit/sta.

I apologize for my bad english, I'm french ;)

Lilithium
11-12-2009, 09:11 PM
Unfortunately I don't have the log from that encounter, as it was just a pug run. Next time I'll be sure to record it, just in case it happens again.

Edgewalker
11-12-2009, 11:37 PM
Unfortunately I don't have the log from that encounter, as it was just a pug run. Next time I'll be sure to record it, just in case it happens again.

There isn't a need, as it won't happen "again".
Something very likely made impale fall off, disarm, agro switches, bops... but it wasn't avoidance.

Satorri
11-13-2009, 07:13 AM
It's true, Impale applications cannot be avoided by any means. If there was a way, in the many many many many attempts one of our tanks sporting our 60%+ avoidances would've not had an application on the timer.

I have Satrina's Buff frames setup to track the debuffs on my co-tank(s), so I can see every time it stacks. I'm comfortable that my sample size is big enough that I would have seen at least one instance by now.

Lilithium
11-13-2009, 06:48 PM
Possible then that the other tank grabbed aggro just enough to get impaled, and then I snagged it back without noticing? That's probably a more reasonable answer.

Blasterion
11-13-2009, 09:22 PM
It's true, Impale applications cannot be avoided by any means. If there was a way, in the many many many many attempts one of our tanks sporting our 60%+ avoidances would've not had an application on the timer.

I have Satrina's Buff frames setup to track the debuffs on my co-tank(s), so I can see every time it stacks. I'm comfortable that my sample size is big enough that I would have seen at least one instance by now.
I know that on normal mode Gormok is Disarmable will this allow Impale avoidance?

Pwnanapuddin
11-14-2009, 03:45 AM
The disarm for heroic mode is a MUST because it drops gormoks overall damage and will help keep your tank from getting 1 shot.

Edgewalker
11-14-2009, 06:11 AM
The disarm for heroic mode is a MUST because it drops gormoks overall damage and will help keep your tank from getting 1 shot.

Again, not possible.

Blasterion
11-14-2009, 07:44 AM
he can't be disarmed in heroic as far as I know

Satorri
11-14-2009, 08:57 AM
Gormokk has a funny quirk like Steelbreaker, if you're kiting him for some reason or he's running to catch his tank and the timer comes up for Impale/Fusion Punch, he'll pick a random (probably highest threat) target in melee range and sock them.

So, this is NOT a thing you want to try and use, but it could explain you not getting the stack if you were out of melee range.

sillypuddy
11-15-2009, 10:13 PM
A noob question:
I am currently frost specced, and I'm seeing a lot of DK tanks in prestigious guilds run a blood spec. So I am debating on whether or not to respec into blood. My question, will blood spec be worse for me because I'm assuming that there is a much higher intake of damage, and since my health pool is only 32.2k unbuffed frost specced going blood will not be as beneficial? Also, will blood tanking be so different that it will lower my performance and make me not tank as consistently as I did in frost?

Lilithium
11-16-2009, 01:20 AM
One of the big benefits (biggest) is the health pool and inflatable health pool (Vamp Blood) of Blood that allows it to take bigger blows, especially from hard mode content. This makes for a much more manageable, and steady intake of damage for the healers to work with.

This isn't to say Frost and Unholy don't work equally well in hard mode content, but damage intake can be a bit streakier, so make sure your healers are really on point.

I've run Blood and am currently running DW Frost, and the increase in passive damage reduction, increased chance to be missed, and especially acclimation (my guilty secret) I've found several encounters where Frost is just a blast (howling) to play.

As Satorri will most likely reiterate, play what you enjoy, and what works best for you.

Or as I like to put it, "If women can play WoW, then DW Frost tanking is clearly not the strangest thing happening to Warcraft."

Satorri
11-16-2009, 09:51 AM
Lilithium said it true. =) Play what you enjoy. He's on his own for the women comment though, don't know what that is about.

Just because people do it in the "best" guilds does not mean it is better, or right for you, or your team. If you're curious, try it out and see what you think. Maybe you'll prefer Blood, or maybe it will re-affirm what you like about Frost.

I think that even when played very straight forward (i.e. before you learn how to time heals, or use any of the more complex healing tools), Blood is very simple, and the DS used in rotation alone to generate death runes will probably be enough to make the increase in damage taken not really noticeable.

asches
11-16-2009, 10:56 AM
wondering if unholy can drop 2 points from scent of blood to take improved unholy aura. terrible idea?

Satorri
11-17-2009, 07:23 AM
Imp Unholy Pres is a nice enough talent, but not amazing. You could also just trade 7 stamina for increased run speed on your boot enchant.

SoB isn't a given for Unholy though, I just happen to use it in my current project for different priorities (that also don't leave room for Imp Unholy Pres, nor does it get as much use out of it).

Lilithium
11-17-2009, 05:45 PM
Here's a little unholy spec I've tinkered with in the past. I know it doesn't use IIT, and that's a bit sacrilege; however the constant aoe threat output/add control is phenomenal.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EZ0xxZbghcx00gc0t0ufq:oMdVmM)

4u2nv
11-18-2009, 01:08 PM
The question i have and its been plauging me for weeks and i dont upgrade with triumph gear is bc i lose so much hit. Right now im at 4.36% hit and 7.4% expertise and i cant stomach the fact i have so little hit and i could lose much more from gear upgrades. Now i tank in Blood spec and have DW frost for boredem or heroics. Please someone share some insight into this. I have searched many other better geared tanks and no one has hit gems, etc and some have more hit then i and some have less.

WoW Heroes - World of Warcraft PvE character info & ratings (http://wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&server=Runetotem&name=emopally)

Pwnanapuddin
11-18-2009, 02:18 PM
I think we have talked about the fact that hit rating for tanking is not as big of a deal right now. But that does not mean to just ignore the stat. Also remember, gear is not just gear score and iLvL, if you need to change gear to bump hit up for a fight, or even take the Onyx trink for a high boost to avoidance stats.

Gilthas
11-18-2009, 10:07 PM
Hey guys, long time reader, first time poster. I have a few questions regarding single target threat as a Frost DK. Here is my armory for reference:

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Ghostlands&n=Gilthas&group=1)

It's basically the cc spec from page one that seems to be working quite well. First off you might ask why Rune of Swordshattering on my weapon? I don't need the defense as much since I'm capped already. I use that Rune because of the parry it provides. My logic is this: More parry means more chance for me to avoid attacks. This leads to Rune Strike procing more often therefore building more single target threat OR Scent of Blood procing leading to more Runic Power = more FS assuming Rime is up. Is this the wrong way to build single target threat? Or is my logic wrong and I should go back to Rune of Stone Skin Gargoyle?

I've read that their is no solid single target threat rotation, but this is what I've been using IT PS BS BS OB DUMP OB. If Rime is up and I have RP use FS. If KM is up, wait for Rime and hit HB. I had in mind to try out DnD, HB, BS, FS regardless if Rime is up or not. HoW after BS if I don't have enough runic power for at least one FS.

I'm not sure why my single target threat is suffering. Possibly my spec? or my Rotation? or maybe my priority order is wrong? Any advice would be appreciated, thank you.

Satorri
11-19-2009, 05:52 AM
The question i have and its been plauging me for weeks and i dont upgrade with triumph gear is bc i lose so much hit. Right now im at 4.36% hit and 7.4% expertise and i cant stomach the fact i have so little hit and i could lose much more from gear upgrades. Now i tank in Blood spec and have DW frost for boredem or heroics. Please someone share some insight into this. I have searched many other better geared tanks and no one has hit gems, etc and some have more hit then i and some have less.

WoW Heroes - World of Warcraft PvE character info & ratings (http://wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&server=Runetotem&name=emopally)

Wrong place for this, there's a forum.

Short answer? I don't know, I held off a lot on upgrading to t9 gear myself to maintain levels of hit that wouldn't make me cry. I now have my t9 4 pc bonus and I'm hit-capped.

It's not a matter of the level of the gear, it's a matter of finding the pieces with hit that suit your set best and grabbing them up. Depending on your access and repetition on raids that may not be easy.

Satorri
11-19-2009, 06:04 AM
First off you might ask why Rune of Swordshattering on my weapon? I don't need the defense as much since I'm capped already. I use that Rune because of the parry it provides. My logic is this: More parry means more chance for me to avoid attacks. This leads to Rune Strike procing more often therefore building more single target threat OR Scent of Blood procing leading to more Runic Power = more FS assuming Rime is up. Is this the wrong way to build single target threat? Or is my logic wrong and I should go back to Rune of Stone Skin Gargoyle?

Your logic is fine. But to be clear, here is the breakdown between the two runes:
SSG = 3% total avoidance (1% miss, dodge, parry), +2% stam
SS = 4% parry

A lot of tanks will take SSG for the health bump, not because they particularly need the defense (I do because I'm a Blood tank and I really do like more health). You are right though, in that SS will give you twice as much RS/SoB triggering chances, and for that it is a fine choice. For posterity, note that neither rune will be affected by, or affect your diminishing returns on avoidance stats.


I've read that their is no solid single target threat rotation, but this is what I've been using IT PS BS BS OB DUMP OB. If Rime is up and I have RP use FS. If KM is up, wait for Rime and hit HB. I had in mind to try out DnD, HB, BS, FS regardless if Rime is up or not. HoW after BS if I don't have enough runic power for at least one FS.

For single target threat as Frost, you described the best method I've seen, and it works quite well. Two diseases, OB each FU pair, HB when Rime procs, FS to fill rune blackouts, and BS Blood runes for an extra FU pair every other set. I would *not* advocate using DnD for general threat, especially not single target threat as a Frost tank. It's worth using strategically for pick-ups, pull tactics, etc, but I think it's a waste on a single target where you could use your other moves more smoothly.

If you're having trouble with threat, by looking at your gear (which I notice is setup to stamina at any expense), I'd wager that you are just pitting your threat against better geared dps, am I right?

By your equipment I'd guess you'd put out fine threat against people up through Ulduar gear, but if you're going against people in healthy amounts of t9 you may have to work hard for it, and your weapon will contribute to that a fair amount (219 ilvl, 212 dps will hurt your OB, RS, BS, and FS a bit compared to higher geared dpsers). Your avoidance is decent, as is your health.

What level of content are you tanking, and who are you tanking for? I think your methodology sounds just fine.

Gilthas
11-19-2009, 08:09 AM
For single target threat as Frost, you described the best method I've seen, and it works quite well. Two diseases, OB each FU pair, HB when Rime procs, FS to fill rune blackouts, and BS Blood runes for an extra FU pair every other set. I would *not* advocate using DnD for general threat, especially not single target threat as a Frost tank. It's worth using strategically for pick-ups, pull tactics, etc, but I think it's a waste on a single target where you could use your other moves more smoothly.

In that case I will stick to that rotation until it becomes priority and go from there.


If you're having trouble with threat, by looking at your gear (which I notice is setup to stamina at any expense), I'd wager that you are just pitting your threat against better geared dps, am I right?

By your equipment I'd guess you'd put out fine threat against people up through Ulduar gear, but if you're going against people in healthy amounts of t9 you may have to work hard for it, and your weapon will contribute to that a fair amount (219 ilvl, 212 dps will hurt your OB, RS, BS, and FS a bit compared to higher geared dpsers). Your avoidance is decent, as is your health.

What level of content are you tanking, and who are you tanking for? I think your methodology sounds just fine.

Quite right. Full Triumph and 245 weapons, mostly casters that take aggro after a string of big crits. If Heroism is popped very early and I don't have enough threat they will steal it. Usually if an early Heroism is inc then I will ERW and spam Oblit with diseases up and sometimes even then I'm not able to keep aggro. I'm able to MT 10ToC with no issues, but I've not had to chance to MT 25ToC. I've MT 25 Onyx, I was on Sarth and I have healthy aggro, I suppose only because I was given a few seconds to get aggro and pull her back before everyone goes nuts. I was also on the welphs and AoE threat for Frost is cake so I had no issues there.

The reason I'm curious about the single target threat is for example on a heroic boss, why is it that if DPS pop's their CD's right off the start they steal aggro very easily and even if I pop ERW and start spamming OB they still take aggro?

Also you mentioned
(which I notice is setup to stamina at any expense).

Am I not suppose to gem straight for stamina? Am I loosing out by going for straight Stamina or should I be looking into socket bonuses?

As for my gear, I really should invest in a couple of triumph pieces which are pretty easy to get. The only problem is the one you mentioned: the weapon since Justicebringer drops once every month :(. I do have Stormrune Edge that I use for my DPS set, would that help with gaining more threat then Marrowstike ? I would loose out on the socket Stamina but I would give that up for more threat easily.

Satorri
11-19-2009, 08:15 AM
"Supposed" is a sticky word for me. I don't think you'll suffer really from all stamina, but I'm a stickler for making socket bonuses as a tank. Since almost all of your bonuses are stamina, you'd lose a little stam and gain a disproportionately larger value of something else. For example, I trade some stam for a lot of Agi (Shifting purples for red slots, gets you AP, Armor, Dodge, and Crit, all in small measure but the cumulative value is nice for threat and survival) and Hit (Vivid greens for my one yellow slot, so long as you aren't hit capped it's nice for threat).

You won't get better health value out of the sockets if you drop the pure stam gems from some of them to meet bonuses, but you will get a better net value out of it. That is, unless you prescribe to the school of thought that health > everything.

The Stormrune Edge would absolutely give you more threat than Marrowstrike. Actually, I don't know why you aren't using it already? o.O It's higher dps, higher stats, it just doesn't have the socket which makes for a very small difference (and in terms of threat, the stats never outweigh the dps value).


As for dps playing stupidly with their threat, I can't make excuses. I do have a policy of "pulling aggro as a dpser is your responsibility, not mine." I do what I can for threat, I work for it. If you pull off me, it's because you were foolish with your threat and threat-drop abilities, and I am happy to let you tank it to remember why it is a bad idea to pull off of the tank. It is a liberty I have though, to say that, no one can actually really out-gear me. That said, I still feel threat is in the dpsers hands. It is only vital that they do their breakneck dps in hard modes, if they're worrying too much about numbers in an instance, then they have their priorities out of whack.


"If a healer dies, it is the tank's fault.
If the tank dies, it is the healer's fault.
If the dps die, it is their own damn fault."

Gilthas
11-19-2009, 08:56 AM
I never considered the net value of trying to get the socket bonuses, now it is something I will certainly look into. I would gain more dodge or parry or hit depending on the socket. I would much rather have a little bit less health but be able to dodge and parry incoming attacks then have a shit ton of health and take massive damage making it harder for my healers.

As for me not using Stormrune Edge it's mostly because I'm not sure if I really want to stick to DPS or tanking. I'm really loving tanking so far so I will put my trophies, badges, and gold towards that. After DPSing for three or so patches.. it's getting really boring. Simple modifications to a tree or rotation for the most part will fix anything wrong with DPS. What I've come to appreicate so much about tanking is the understanding it forces me to have of an encounter. Sure you need to understand the fight from a DPS point of view, but compared to a tanking point of view it's very tunnel vision. With tanking I get a better sense of the over all raid, a bird's eye view, much better for leading and figuring out solutions to particular encounters.

As for your DPS explaination about them pulling, makes me feel good. Mostly because now I am confident that I'm doing my part on threat gaining and it's up to DPS to do their part. The moment that I hit IT in a bloody heroic they pop cd's and go nuts. I don't see how it's possible to hold threat against that, but from what you said it's all good if I don't hold threat if they go nuts within 2seconds of a heroic fight.

I will talk to my guild about MTing 25ToC and will certainly get back to you guys about how my single target threat gen is there.

Satorri
11-19-2009, 09:13 AM
Ah, so you have the sword set up to dps.

Rune switching can be pretty easy, since it's free, and ToC is in close proximity to the Runeforges in the Shadowvault. =) That's all it takes to make a dps weapon a tank weapon for us. Of course, you can always tank with Fallen Crusader, it's good threat, albeit weak survival.

Odkanni
11-19-2009, 10:24 AM
Am I glad to read the last few postings here. Just been called an incompetent tank in VoA 25 coz I couldn't hold threat against hardcore dps. Finally 3rd time when they held back a bit I had no problems. But I sure don't hope I'll have this problem from now on.

saber_pv
11-19-2009, 01:40 PM
I can relate to the amount of misinformation that tends to float around on servers. I ran into another DW'ing frost DK tank in a 25-man VoA pug the other day. Since I am a big fan of the style, I whispered him "props on DW'ing," and he began asking me questions. I discovered that the guy thought that 0 parries occur at 26 expertise, so he "had to get to 26 expertise or else he'll get parried and insta-gibbed." the guy literally thought that if you get parried as a tank, it's like an super DragonBall-Z instant death attack. He had no idea how the parry-haste rule worked, and couldn't comprehend the fact that his belief on the matter was self-evidently wrong, since he was tanking in a 25-man raid with only 24 expertise and mysteriously hadn't died yet...

I can also relate. I was told point-blank in a raid by another DK we pugged in that I was stupid for using a frost 2-h spec. If that's the case, then why are there 2 of them posted here???

Anyway, I'm looking at this spec to fit in Acclimation:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EMZhgx0AbIoc0buuAo0x)

Does that seem to make sense?

Lilithium
11-19-2009, 03:30 PM
Looks like it makes sense to me, but I'd recommend the glyph of howling blast with an epidemic-less spec. It works wonders for me.

Swam
11-20-2009, 01:56 AM
Satorri, your my hero. Just like Simon is to Malcolm Renolds

Gilthas
11-20-2009, 10:50 AM
I tanked 10ToC last night and my threat gen was fine. Their was one moment on Anub where a feral druid almost pulled off of me, so I had to pay attention. I got Fordragon Blade last night so that helped with my tanking upgrade.

Only problem I had were applying diseases. I noticed when I tried to apply my diseases I missed quite often. Is this a hit rating issue? Earlier hit rating was being discussed, but their was not solid conclusion. Is my hit too low? Is that why I'm missing when I try to apply diseases?

Satorri
11-20-2009, 11:19 AM
Plague Strike uses the melee miss chance, so even with your hit you won't miss much, but Icy Touch uses the spell cap, so there's a pretty sizable miss chance normally everywhere.

Do you *need* more hit chance? No, but what you're describing is a reason I usually try to hang out near the hit and expertise soft caps (8% melee hit and 26 expertise).

Synapse
11-20-2009, 11:24 AM
What sat said. Virulence takes care of some of that %hit for icy touch and death coil, and hit rating benefits spell hit more than mellee hit, so you'll probably be looking at 4% or so miss chance for icy touch if you're hit capped and virulent.

Rude
11-20-2009, 11:48 PM
I'm using Glyph of Howling Blast with Epidemic. I'm also 3/3 in Subversion with Sigil of Awareness. It gives me a lot of time to wait on a Rime proc so that I don't use runes on Howling Blast. I figured it worked for DPSing, why not tanking?

Lilithium
11-21-2009, 12:15 AM
The links to your characters weren't working, Rude. Would you mind posting the spec you use? I'm curious :D

Satorri
11-21-2009, 04:07 AM
I'm using Glyph of Howling Blast with Epidemic. I'm also 3/3 in Subversion with Sigil of Awareness. It gives me a lot of time to wait on a Rime proc so that I don't use runes on Howling Blast. I figured it worked for DPSing, why not tanking?

Well, the statement I can nitpick by saying tanking has different needs than dpsing.

Though the specific sentiment here isn't a bad one.

Usually the catch with spec'ing for tanking is that you have to choose your balance of threat talents vs survival talents. And talents may have different value for tanks than they do for dpsers. Bladed Armor being a major example. As a dpser it is a moderate value, little better than anything else. As a tank with Toughness and in Frost Presence, Bladed Armor becomes one of the single largest talents for threat buffing that isn't a tree/style-specific spell.

doru
11-21-2009, 08:03 AM
Gilthas,

I saw your posts as I was perusing tank info. I have been playing the game a long time...to long in fact. I know people here dont know me to much i hardly ever post. With that said I used to be a warrior tank and Hav ehad my DK as main for a yr and have been tanking with mine. (In other words I know a little something about the game and class)

I am a blood tank but also a frost dw dps. Now to the point :)

I looked at your spec and I see some things that I think would help alot. The few changes I propse would help smooth rotations and increase threat alot. There is just no wway you need chill of grave and scent of blood. you will generate more threat and dps this way. Also I kept the glyphs you had but I think you could get away with changing oblit for disease for more aoe threat.

Anyway my little suggestion....btw if you want to know who I am and waht my stuff looks like you can find it here. Little reminder I am offspec tank :)

Frost tank build
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jceMZrxx0AbI0f0buzAo0g:oad)

Rathlord<---ME :)
WoW Heroes - World of Warcraft PvE character info & ratings (http://wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&server=Hellscream&name=rathlord)

Rude
11-21-2009, 11:50 AM
The links to your characters weren't working, Rude. Would you mind posting the spec you use? I'm curious :D

I hadn't updated it since I changed servers and stopped playing my Warrior. So.. ever really. It should work now.

I was running with a frost dps DK, so I dropped the entire line of icy stuff. I'm sure I will get berated for violating the holy trinity, but it's never posed much of a problem doing normal 10s. If I get into another guild and do anything more serious, I would look at moving points in Scent of Blood up to Blade Barrier. What drives me nuts is having to have 52 points in frost.

Syntaxx
11-21-2009, 01:27 PM
I am a DK tank currently struggling with mitigation and gemming. My guild has told me that I take too many damage spikes and it may be my gear or specs. I recently respeced from a blood spec I had been using for quite some time, but I am getting frustrated fast with what I need to do to improve this. I have read a lot of forums but they are just spinning my head in circles. Can anyone help me out.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lightning%27s+Blade&n=Syntaxx)

This is my armory with the 2 new specs I am trying out. I wasn't sure if maybe I should look into DW tanking, after getting some more expertise as well as 2 weapons. Also if I did, I wasn't sure what weapons to look in to. Any help with anything at all would be much appreciated. Thank you

Rude
11-21-2009, 03:35 PM
I can't speak much outside of frost, since I leveled the DK after Threat of Thassarian and spent most of my time dual-wielding. 1H tank weapons are probably going to give you the most health, certainly more avoidance stats than dps weapons. I've spent a lot of time shuffling gear and gems around to hold 540 defense. You would be 7 defense rating short for that, which a 10DR/15Stam gem will take care of.

The problem, at least for me, is changing gear. That 25 defense gives you a lot of padding when you get upgrades with less defense rating. That will change in 3.3, but right now it's something you should be aware of if you want to go that route. DW will give you another 1% avoidance, plus whatever you can get on the weapons. So what 1h choices you have is probably the deciding factor on the avoidance gain.

Syntaxx
11-21-2009, 03:59 PM
Okay so you think DW is a viable tanking spec? What weapons would be good, cause I've heard fast/slow weps and fast/fast and slow/slow so its a bit confusing. I just tried the unholy build and it actually wasn't that bad but im not sure how it will stand up in a 25 man progression raid. And if I understand correctly expertise is important for that too, but then again the defense issue comes to play but I guess a few defense/stam gems could help with that.

I'm not sure what else I can do gem wise or gear wise or spec wise to help mitigation. But from the sounds of it DW is the best option and will be even better come 3.3

Lilithium
11-22-2009, 06:59 AM
In a magical, splendifurous world two slow 1h tanking weapons would be ideal for frost DW tanking. As it stands now, the slowest weapons for tanking are the following:
Burnished Quel'Serrar - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49495)
Gleaming Quel'Serrar - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=49303)
Broken Promise - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40345)

However; all hope is not lost, as it appears in 10 man heroic ICC we'll be getting a new, 2.0 speed tanking axe with a gem slot. Rather snazzy piece, too.

That all aside, if you're fine on defense, and don't need it from your weapons, then this opens the doors a bit. Realistically, any of the slow 1h weapons from ToC such as:
Blackhorn Bludgeon - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47905)

as an example make fine tanking weapons. Worst case scenario is you're forced to use the faster tanking weapons, but the loss in threat shouldn't be enough to have people pulling mobs off you constantly anyways.

Swam
11-22-2009, 08:15 AM
Here is an issue I have right now. Back in naxx I did not have a single gem that was only stam. Now with the way bosses hit I have been forced to get almost nothing but stam with 2 expertise gems thrown in.
With naxx 30hp unbuffed was a solid numer that you really didnt need to excede to tank all encounters comfortably.
What is a good estimate for toc and icecrown. Right now I have about 34.5k hp unbuffed and for once am bowing to the pressure to gem stam.
Will Icecrown need me to try and hit 50k hp to feel comfortable? if so thats a bit much, if very sexy.

Lilithium
11-22-2009, 09:35 AM
Depends what ToC you're talking about. 10, 25, GC, etc. Most DKs in ToGC 10/25 I've seen are around the 50k mark, fully buffed.

Edgewalker
11-23-2009, 06:27 AM
ToC regular I was sitting around 41-42K unbuffed, 50K buffed, which was pretty standard for Ulduar 25 gear. Starting ToGC you should be at least 50K buffed, with a significantly higher armor value than Ulduar gear as well if you are using ToC gear.

Satorri
11-23-2009, 06:35 AM
Truth be told, I've seen little problem in ToC with health fully buffed as low as 44k. I was experimenting with a stronger avoidance set, and dropped my stamina trinkets and SSG rune.

What you need and what people get are two different matters and at that, it depends on the fight.

Heroic Gormok is the one boss who will truly test your survival based on max health, and purely as a matter of whether or not you can survive a melee swing stacking with a hard impale hit. That will go to your healers as well, as that can push over 40k damage in a half a second. That is the one place where you will see the need of huge health value.

Interestingly enough, the boss who hits for the largest hits (Anub) also doesn't require as high a total health. Each swing hits hard, but the healers will be focusing on keeping you up quite hard when it matters and, while it's not a big deal if you have a little more or a little less health, in general terms it will shorten the fight some if you have less health anyway. Shorter fight means less time you have to take the beating.

The minimum health I'd shoot for in ToC is 40-42k, and ToGC would be more like 44-46k. **That is assuming that you are wearing gear on par for the instance. That would not be very strong if you're wearing lower level gear with pure epic stam gems in every slot, and both Brewfest trinkets to squeeze every ounce of health out of otherwise weaker gear.

You can squeeze it out for Gormok, but for other fights I think you can get away without being too severe on your health pool (again, meeting the caveat above).


I think it's too soon the estimate about Icecrown, but based on Dev chatter about how they want to balance tank damage, I think you'll be climbing a bit higher than t9, but I don't think you will *need* more. Chances are you'll be able to get away with 45-48k raid buffed, but more will make for a more comfortable buffer. Entering the new content in current gear you will, as always, take a lot more of a beating, and as your gear upgrades you will see less. Play it out and see what happens.

Many people do not mess with their gear, they pick their "Best in slot" items and just use one set for everything. I highly recommend keeping a variety of pieces that you can set up and swap to tailor your stats. What is most helpful for one fight is not always what is best for another.

Edgewalker
11-23-2009, 10:58 AM
I think it's too soon the estimate about Icecrown, but based on Dev chatter about how they want to balance tank damage, I think you'll be climbing a bit higher than t9, but I don't think you will *need* more. Chances are you'll be able to get away with 45-48k raid buffed, but more will make for a more comfortable buffer. Entering the new content in current gear you will, as always, take a lot more of a beating, and as your gear upgrades you will see less. Play it out and see what happens.


With all the armor gear coming out as well, it should be very possible to aim for high armor, and lower life, and still be better off. That's my personal desire anyways... a little more variability.
I know I already use Glyph of Indomitably and armor enchants over stamina for most fights.

Satorri
11-23-2009, 12:51 PM
I hear there was a sexy trinket found on the PTR that had big Armor on equip, and on equip each time you get hit you add 24 stamina (or something in that range) that stacks up to 10 times.

I just about broke out giggling, it sounded so delicious.

Pwnanapuddin
11-23-2009, 10:08 PM
Had something interesting happen while tanking 10h anub, i popped AMS to block the ice slash, and it gave me the RP and blocked it, but then a few seconds later the ice would hit again not on the CD timer. Has anyone else seen this happen?

Satorri
11-24-2009, 10:31 AM
I've tried timing out my AMS to catch the Frost Slash, and I was pretty sure I'd soaked it, but still got frozen.

It's hard to say though because I am rarely watching the duration count out AND watching to see if I get a slash. I may have just missed the timing.

Also, a side note to watch out for Lilithium, we're an official fansite, which means we are not allowed to post anything data-mined. If it has been found on the PTR that is ok, but nothing from the data files. I wasn't sure how MMO-Champ got the info.

Gilthas
11-24-2009, 11:30 AM
Question regarding proc's and when to use them. I've been told that when Rime procs, I should hit FS if I have the Runic Power and if KM procs I should wait for a Rime proc then hit HB? I don't think that's the correct way...

For some reason I believe my single target threat is low because I am misusing the procs. I spoke to another DK Tank today and he said something along the lines of, when KM procs, use OB making HB or FS a crit hit. That makes sense according to the talent point info, but my question is should I use HB or FS for the cirt hit?

Regarding Rime, according to the talent point when that procs I should spam HB since it's free?

Also what is the correct thought process when both KM and Rime proc at the same time? Should I spam HB since it will be a free crit hit?

@Sattori - going to subscribe to the health > all till I get some triumph set gear which should hopefully be tonight so the over all net gain will be worth it.

@doru - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#jceMZrxx0AbI0f0buzAo0g:oad)

I will give this a shot though I like the Runic Power SoB does provide. As for RPM, I'm never starved for runic power, so I may fool around with those points.

Satorri
11-24-2009, 12:05 PM
I haven't run the numbers in some time, but I think given the current state of FS and HB, you really don't need to pay attention to Killing Machine procs (unless you're using IT to apply/maintain Frost Fever, in which case you probably just want to make sure you don't use that on a KM proc). Otherwise the standard logic applies. Use HB as soon as Rime procs most of the time (only delaying if you're not going to OB next, ALWAYS before your next OB), and use FS in rune blackouts.

If you want to know for sure what the absolute best use of KM procs is, just check your recount or combat log parse to see whether FS or HB averages a larger value for you. Whichever is larger is your best choice. Generally, I'd expect them to be pretty close now, or close enough it won't make a big difference. If you're tanking 2 or more targets, try to use it on HB, but don't worry too much if you happen to use it on FS.

Lilithium
11-24-2009, 02:25 PM
I've tried timing out my AMS to catch the Frost Slash, and I was pretty sure I'd soaked it, but still got frozen.

It's hard to say though because I am rarely watching the duration count out AND watching to see if I get a slash. I may have just missed the timing.

Also, a side note to watch out for Lilithium, we're an official fansite, which means we are not allowed to post anything data-mined. If it has been found on the PTR that is ok, but nothing from the data files. I wasn't sure how MMO-Champ got the info.

My apologies, I'll take care of that immediately.

Gilthas
11-25-2009, 09:56 AM
All right guys, I tank'd my ToC last night and it did not go too bad at all. The only issue I had was holding threat on Jaxxus when Hero was popped about 10 or so seconds into the fight. I had a mage and a few locks just shoot through the roof on threat. How do I handle that?

Tonight I will be tanking 10ToC so I thought about trying blood tanking for single target and see how well that goes.

I have a few questions regarding Blood tanking. If using Glyph of Disease is it the same idead as Blood DPS, getting the diseases buffed by leading out with a DS, HSx2 and then Applying Diseases?

I was thinking to Hystertia right off the start to build some substantial aggro and DS HS HS, apply diseases. Pesti when their about to fall off, DS for death runes and so on.

Or should I start off with IT PS Hysteria DS for Death Runes and HS HS..? Just curious to know what you guys do when you begin an encounter?

@Sattori - the advice on the procs helped.. also reading the first pots of this thread helped.

Swam
11-25-2009, 10:42 AM
So im trying out a unholy dps spec. Any solid pointers? I have a decent spec I stole and am just wondering if there is a place here to learn a bit more.im having trouble finding unholy info

Krenian
11-25-2009, 12:02 PM
16/0/55 Unholy Two Handed spec

Basis is real simple:

IT > PS > BS > BS > SS > DC dump. Rince and repeat.

Don't grab Reaping, and just follow that rotation. Keep your ghoul summoned and hit your gargoyle when you've done your first rotation.

That's the jist of Unholy until 3.3

Edit: If you people are going to post DPS questions in here, I guess I need to start keeping an eye on this damn thing.

Swam
11-25-2009, 12:21 PM
ok guess im doing it right then. You going to update unholy for 3.3 on your sexy guide?

Krenian
11-25-2009, 12:25 PM
It'll be updated. In fact, all of it will be. I'm not a huge fan of the WoW forum one though so I might leave that one be and just let it get unstickied at one point. I just don't like the idea of a limit per post because it looks broken.

Anywho, the whole guide will prolly be revamped come 3.3.

Swam
11-25-2009, 12:26 PM
whoo hoo! looking forward to it man.

Rude
11-26-2009, 04:22 AM
With slow weapons, Frost Strike should do slightly more damage, which might matter for a tank in 3.3. I basically just ignore it. If I have multiple targets, I'm probably hitting HB as soon as it's off cooldown. I Frost Strike when I'm holding at high runic power. Then again, I run sort of a weird build that has Scent of Blood and 5/5 Killing Machine. It's up often enough not to matter for me.

I was going to make a comment about there probably being more important things to pay attention to and came up with a question. Is there actually a good time to deliberately use Unbreakable Armor? It seems like I only use it in the first whelp phase on Onyxia.

Edgewalker
11-26-2009, 08:20 AM
KM procs way too much to try to work your rotation around it. You would be better suited paying attention to survival or the raid around you.

Krenian
11-26-2009, 09:15 AM
KM procs way too much to try to work your rotation around it. You would be better suited paying attention to survival or the raid around you.

This.

If it happens that KM and Rime procs at the same time, bonus. Don't play with just watching your Rime/KM procs to hit Howling Blast. You're distracting yourself from what could be happening on the screen. Just hit Frost Strike and eat the KM proc.

The problem with min/maxing these days is they don't take in account the fact that something can happen beyond your control that doesn't allow you to follow a rotation. Gone are the days of Patchwerk where you sit and just pump as much DPS as you can. Too much is happening on the screen.

When a guide says that the best DPS possible is to wait for KM/Rime together to hit Howling Blast, it's to show that this is the best case scenario IF it happens. If it comes to a point where Rime didn't proc and you're sitting with a KM proc and are at the dump phase, just dump it. Don't stop yourself from hitting FS because a guide tells you that you must use KM/RIme together.

Lilithium
11-27-2009, 05:09 AM
Just wanted to mention something I've noticed for tanks that aren't hit capped (such as myself). For DW specs, if your MH portion of the strike misses/is parred/dodged, but the OH portion strikes, the runes don't get consume, but are subject to the GCD still, and the OH strike still does damage. As well, I've noticed situations where Oblits that missed, etc on the MH, but struck with the OH proced Rime.

This, in my mind serves to further the statement that hitting the hit cap, especially as DW isn't as vital, because with each of our "strikes" we are still potentially getting some damage out of a miss, rather than a total loss.

*edit*

Missed MH plague strikes, but hit OH plague strikes will NOT apply blood plague.

Madoxx
11-27-2009, 06:03 AM
Lilithium how are you finding the DWing tanking now ?

Pwnanapuddin
11-27-2009, 07:06 AM
I will admit, I am too stuck on my DBB to even want to DW right now.

Lilithium
11-27-2009, 08:40 AM
I'm finding it to be quite a refreshing deviation from the standard "blood, stack stam" ideology. I've picked up things like acclimation, and stacked more dodge, making for a bit of a unique tanking experience.

While my gear isnt where I want it to be exactly, as this is only an alt in my guild, and not my main, I'm slowly picking up the pieces I want.

A few of the choices I've made have excluded me, somewhat from certain content. Without the massive health pool of some other tanks, ToGC has been very challenging, more on the healers, mainly on the Beasts fight. Gormok can be a real devastation. I make sure to time my IBF, UA and I even carry a few Indestructable Potions into combat. Along with Quel and The Black Heart I've hit the 75% armor cap on several instances.

I wouldn't recommend DW to everyone, that's for certain. It can be a white knuckle ride at times, but if you do find yourself bored with the ordinary, give it a shot.

As a small caveat, though I used to be a raid viable smite priest, and enjoy tanking heroics with my BM hunter, so "normal" was left in my other pants a long time ago.

Pwnanapuddin
12-09-2009, 04:33 AM
So, for the first time ever I have been told my TPS was too low in ICC as both blood and frost...... I am not sure, but I think the RS issue with lack of dodge makes a bigger difference than we thought?

Satorri
12-09-2009, 05:09 AM
It's funny, I was seeing the opposite effect. I felt like my threat was stronger, which didn't make much sense to me.

The +17% to RS threat may be the culprit (haven't confirmed but the smart answer is that the threat multiplier is now 175% threat instead of 150%). I figured it over-compensated slightly, and I was not about to complain.


Was it on a specific fight/trash, or just in general?

Pwnanapuddin
12-09-2009, 05:14 AM
I think it was just in general, my rune strike was going off much less often. who knows, thursday ill give it another shot..... with info to follow of course

Pwnanapuddin
12-11-2009, 10:19 AM
So my guild swapped me over to DW Tanking, I am now pulling so much threat I have to stop attacking on fights like Marrowgar/Gormok or pull threat off our druid.

Sennex
12-11-2009, 07:19 PM
I was thinking of using this spec but wasn't sure:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#j0EZhxe0AbI0c0fuzAo0xM)
(DW Frost with Unholy Command)

Chamenas
12-11-2009, 07:54 PM
So my guild swapped me over to DW Tanking, I am now pulling so much threat I have to stop attacking on fights like Marrowgar/Gormok or pull threat off our druid.

;)

Also. I see my spec up there! Does that mean I'm as smart as Sattori?

Pwnanapuddin
12-11-2009, 10:12 PM
I will be honest, I came up with this on my own just screwing around lol. But it is great, I have more RP than I know what to do with.

Chamenas
12-12-2009, 10:21 AM
I will be honest, I came up with this on my own just screwing around lol. But it is great, I have more RP than I know what to do with.

Oh, I was talking about the spec in Sattori's main post :p

@ Sennex - What's the reasoning behind Unholy Command? Those are two points that are likely better spent elsewhere as Unholy Command is more a PvP ability.

Rude
12-12-2009, 05:25 PM
I know that I've had times in the new 5's where I wish that I had it. Casters are the bane of my existence.

Chamenas
12-12-2009, 05:57 PM
I can usually pull them such that I only need to Deathgrip one of them, and the cooldown usually resets before the next pull. But I suppose a point is made there.

Valquirie
12-13-2009, 12:04 AM
Strangulate works well, too. Death Grip + Strangulate + Position self near other caster, that's pulling THREE casters! Follow with D&D, HB or...whatever. :-)

NB: The first such pull that came to mind: Deathwatchers (?), Flamebearers + Something-Ymirjary-else, right after the Ick/Krick enconter in the Pit of Saron. :P

Chamenas
12-13-2009, 06:29 AM
Strangulate works well, too. Death Grip + Strangulate + Position self near other caster, that's pulling THREE casters! Follow with D&D, HB or...whatever. :-)

NB: The first such pull that came to mind: Deathwatchers (?), Flamebearers + Something-Ymirjary-else, right after the Ick/Krick enconter in the Pit of Saron. :P

Even with that pull, I still managed to get all of them with one DnD, HB and moving slightly closer to one :X

course now my guild just tends to CC them.

Valquirie
12-13-2009, 06:34 AM
Even with that pull, I still managed to get all of them with one DnD, HB and moving slightly closer to one :X

course now my guild just tends to CC them.
There are three casters, there. By moving closer to one, did you actually bring two of them close enough? That's beautiful positioning then! :D
As for Howling Blast...I am - as of this moment - Blood (spec was good for 3.2), but might go back to my beloved dual-Frosty, later today. :P
CC? Hmm...any relation to GC? :-/ HeHe, no, it's just I have rarely been in groups with (pro)active(?) CC!

Chamenas
12-13-2009, 07:01 AM
There are three casters, there. By moving closer to one, did you actually bring two of them close enough? That's beautiful positioning then! :D


Yes, and thank you. :)



As for Howling Blast...I am - as of this moment - Blood (spec was good for 3.2), but might go back to my beloved dual-Frosty, later today. :P
CC? Hmm...any relation to GC? :-/ HeHe, no, it's just I have rarely been in groups with (pro)active(?) CC!

I'm loving my dual-wield frost spec. However, as I'm about to post in Swam's thread. I wouldn't completely abandon Blood (I, in fact, am dual specced tank :x)

Valquirie
12-13-2009, 07:04 AM
Yes, and thank you. :)
. . .
I'm loving my dual-wield frost spec. However, as I'm about to post in Swam's thread. I wouldn't completely abandon Blood (I, in fact, am dual specced tank :x)
You're welcome! :-)
So...what do you think about the differences? IS d/w more for AoE and Blood for Single target? You are dual-spec'd tanking for those two different scenarios I'm guessing. I feel okay with Blood, but haven't tried the raid yet; the 5-player instances have been okay, though.

Chamenas
12-13-2009, 07:12 AM
Nope. In fact, in 3.2 I dual spec tanked for those reasons. My Frost Spec was strictly for AoE, it had Chillblains, Hungering Cold, and DnD talented. It was an AoE machine, but fairly awful at single target.

In 3.3, my Frost Spec consistently pulls better single-target threat than Blood. It also does better at AoE, but not being able to toss down a DnD as often scares me.

The main issue right now is survivability, and my ability to manage cooldowns to keep myself alive.

Sennex
12-14-2009, 06:10 AM
Unholy Command is purely for the Casters and also as a "Snap" Taunt. Its more of an "Oh Shit" button.

Acidbaron
12-14-2009, 07:18 AM
I would like peoples opinion about using scent of blood, currently i got 3 in there and none in subversion as a blood DK tank, i currently put out 7K tps easly once i get going (self).

I was wondering how much runic power i would actually lose if any.

Anyone their experience or take on this would be appreciated.

Satorri
12-14-2009, 07:28 AM
You will get less RP, yes. SoB is a good way to generate RP.

As Blood, the real question is whether or not you'll miss it. I say no. As Blood the only thing SoB will get you is more Death Coils. Check your combat log parse or recount after the next instance you run and see just how much DC is giving you.

Then consider that Subversion will give you about 13% more HS threat... (with 3/3 in MoM that is)

Swam
12-14-2009, 08:40 AM
Halp! my unholy dps has plummeted! guess I may go back to blood lol

Valquirie
12-14-2009, 09:57 PM
Unholy Command is purely for the Casters and also as a "Snap" Taunt. Its more of an "Oh Shit" button.
The ability is Dark Command (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=56222#modified-by); the talent is Unholy Command (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49588). Death Grip (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49576) - the ability modified by the talent - is for casters, yes.


Halp! my unholy dps has plummeted! guess I may go back to blood lol
This? (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=21723843880&postId=217218523026&sid=1#2)

Chamenas
12-15-2009, 07:41 AM
Unholy Command is purely for the Casters and also as a "Snap" Taunt. Its more of an "Oh Shit" button.

Stating absolutes isn't likely to get you far.

The talent is is a staple in many PvP specs, for casters and even cowardly melee alike. It has its uses in PvE against casters and caster pulls. However, consider the following:

When pulling, you only get one death grip. Having it talented won't give you a second one for the pull.

On occasion, some caster mobs do try to move away. In this situation the talent may be useful in allowing you to use it in the middle of a fight against such casters.
- Of all the fights you've tanked, how many fit this example?
- Further, when a mob HAS moved away, how often has it moved away again several seconds after you death gripped it, but before your cooldown is up again?

Could the points in the talent be used elsewhere to provide a survival or threat benefit that applies to situations which occur more often or almost every time.


In the end, any decent person giving advice won't give absolutes. Sattori says it, Swam will say it. With especial regard to DKs, there's many different ways to make a DK tanking spec. I put points into the unholy death and decay talent as Frost for a long time because I simply wasn't comfortable not being able to put Death and Decay on the ground when I wanted to use it. Elitist tanks would probably have scoffed at me, but it's what I did. If a tank is more comfortable having their death grip at the ready, then, by all means put the points in.

But the reasons for not doing so are simply being made as points of consideration. The majority of specs with Unholy Command are PvP specs. In the majority of cases you shouldn't need that oh shit button more than the normal death grip cooldown, otherwise you're probably doing something that needs to be changed or you'll simply run into complications down the road. The points likely scale better and generalize better in a survival talent or a talent that universally ups your threat to avoid those "oh shit" moments from happening repeatedly in the first place.

Sennex
12-16-2009, 02:24 PM
The ability is Dark Command (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=56222#modified-by); the talent is Unholy Command (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49588). Death Grip (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=49576) - the ability modified by the talent - is for casters, yes.

Um, thanks? I guess, not sure, need more coffee apparently


Stating absolutes isn't likely to get you far.

Uh, what? I was referring to how I use it and why I would spec for it, which was asked earlier. No absolutes here, just what "I" do.



The talent is is a staple in many PvP specs, for casters and even cowardly melee alike. It has its uses in PvE against casters and caster pulls. However, consider the following:

When pulling, you only get one death grip. Having it talented won't give you a second one for the pull.

On occasion, some caster mobs do try to move away. In this situation the talent may be useful in allowing you to use it in the middle of a fight against such casters.
- Of all the fights you've tanked, how many fit this example?
- Further, when a mob HAS moved away, how often has it moved away again several seconds after you death gripped it, but before your cooldown is up again?

Could the points in the talent be used elsewhere to provide a survival or threat benefit that applies to situations which occur more often or almost every time.


I actually have yet to NOT spec for it, so its hard for me to answer your questions based off the CD is always available to me when I do need it.

The mobs rarely get away from me, but there is the odd time in HoR, or the First ICC 5-man (Can't remember name) where a shade (Or caster while running from Arthas) will break away, and I need it back. I can't think of a single instance other than these where I have that issue.

For the most part I view it much how I view and used Intercept/ Intervene on my Warrior Tank. (If this makes sense)

luththren
12-26-2009, 04:39 PM
ty so much for this man:) do you happen to know a good DK keybinding setup? If you do think you could plz email it to me at Dongenoese23@yahoo.com for me?