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Dayon
10-21-2009, 08:08 PM
How do Warrior tanks feel about this trinket?

I'm using it now, but another Warrior tank in my guild is saying that I'm wrong for it, and that I should stack the Brewfest trinkets instead (both of which I have).

I already know that stacking the Brewfest trinkets isn't exactly the greatest unless the fight is 100% magic, but I'm curious to hear what Tankspot thinks of the one I bought with my Triumph emblems.

Mookey
10-22-2009, 12:19 AM
I found it great help on Beasts encounter. Gormok and Icehowl cannot hurt you if you stack up on armor. I think that common agreement is to reach 40K hp with balanced avoidance while keeping expertise in the mid between dodge and parry cap. Once I reached 30K armor 40K hp without sacrificing any other stat - I tanked heroic Gormok25 without problem.

So -
1) Get that trinket it's great on physical damage fights.
2) Don't be lazy - swap trinkets according to fights.

Dayon
10-22-2009, 12:31 AM
I do favor the trinket for such melee encounters, and unless a fight is more magical than physical, I won't use two Direbrew trinkets. Another tank in my guild, however, insists on using them all the time, stating that 'stamina is way more consistent'. It is, but he doesn't see how they aren't great trinkets for all fights.

ae0n3
10-22-2009, 12:53 AM
theres a good article on this stuff over on tankingtips.com

Aggathon
10-22-2009, 01:44 AM
Honestly it depends on where your gear levels are at. I calculated out my EHP from it (though unbuffed, buffed may be different) and actually heart of iron ended up being more EHP than the glyph. It really depends on your hps and your current armor.

The idea with EHP is that it is the completely unmitigated damage you would need to take to go from full to dead, effectively then the mitigators of armor could be converted into hps.

So... granted this is low values I'm just doing napkin math to prove a point.

Say you have 40khp and enough armor for 50% reduction, that means your EHP should be close to 80khp, so 40k EHP from the armor you have. Now say your armor stays the same at 50% but you increase your hps to 50khp, now the same amount of armor has 50k EHP. However if you stay at the same relative hit points but increase armor, there is an exponential curve (at I think it's 45k armor or 75% reduction) so the more armor you have, adding armor with the same amount of hit points slowly will decrease the amount of EHP you get from armor point for point, and the EHP gained from stam trinkets is more than the actual hit points because some of the damage you take will be mitigated by damage (IE if you were to take add 4k hit points it would take 8k damage to actually kill you at 50% reduction from armor)

At least... that is the only reason I can come up with as to why 1.7k armor calculates as less EHP for me than 163 stam. This is just kinda napkin math and me sort of tired late at night. I can find some people to give me buffs tomorrow night or something and buy the glyph and plug things into my calculator if you'd like and show you the numbers, but my unbuffed numbers showed Heart of Iron as more EHP than Glyph of Indominability.

Xianth
10-22-2009, 04:28 AM
See what i said in the other thread - it gives a tiny bit less EH but in the long run it will reduce the physical damage you take by ~4%.

I think when i did a quick work out of how good it was i used unbuffed values and it worked out as an equivalent of about 150 stam (with ~38k hp unbuffed). Of course, this is worth more if you have more health cause the bigger the health pool the more incoming damage there is to reduce in the calculation but even then it won't top the stamina on the highest stam trinket, BUT thats a signifcant amount of physical damage reduction + an amazing on-use that should not be ignored by going into the realms of EHP tunnel vision.

Athenodorus
10-22-2009, 06:57 AM
Love it. Naturally I use a stamina trinket for magic-damage fights, and a blocking or avoidance or threat trinket in heroics, but for everything else: love it.

It isn't just the armor, it's the click effect. Some tanks hate click effects, but I find them to be an incredibly useful addition to our cooldowns. 7.5% dodge (at my gear level, anyway) on demand, for 20 seconds, every 2 minutes.

Thedom
10-22-2009, 07:15 AM
The last of an on use or on equip effect with the Brewfest trinkets really leaves alot to be desired on most fights. In a purely magic damage encounter the Brewfest ones come out on top but probably still not by much. I personally still use the Black Heart over the Brewfest ones.

They are great when you encounter pug groups who expect the tank for their VoA to have 50k health all unbuffed (/sarcasm)

Xianth
10-22-2009, 07:58 AM
Love it. Naturally I use a stamina trinket for magic-damage fights, and a blocking or avoidance or threat trinket in heroics, but for everything else: love it.

It isn't just the armor, it's the click effect. Some tanks hate click effects, but I find them to be an incredibly useful addition to our cooldowns. 7.5% dodge (at my gear level, anyway) on demand, for 20 seconds, every 2 minutes.

Yeh, it's another one of those gains that are actually more than they seem at first glance (like armor gains). For example, 7.5% doesn't sound particulary amazing, but if you are sitting at 62.5% dodge/parry/miss it means that means you have 37.5% chance to be hit (for examples sake we'll take the hit table as 100% and not 102.4%) - take 7.5% off that and you get 30% chance to be hit, this results in you taking 20% less hits than before you popped the trinket.

krc
10-22-2009, 02:50 PM
From an EH point at my current gear level the Brewfest trinket offers slightly more EH than the Glyph of Indomitably but I think the one use of the Glyph of Indomitably makes its far more useful then the Brewfest trinket. An extra 6.5-12% dodge depending on your gear level to use on command on only a two minute cooldown will save you from dying far more than a few hundred EH.

That being said though I would rather have the Brewfest Trinket for a boss like Mimiron where its all magic damage, normal melee can't kill you and there is no burst damage, but for the majority of bosses I want the Glyph of Indomitability.

Dayon
10-22-2009, 03:15 PM
This information has all been very insightful, and it's good to get some backing on choosing the trinkets I do. I've got evidence now to show this other tank in my guild that sticking to his Brewfest-guns is a truly lackluster idea.

felhoof
10-22-2009, 03:28 PM
Don't discount the trinket solely because it's less EH; in addition to the on-use ability, it actually prevents damage, which can be more valuable than stamina when gauging things.

Seriously, why does everyone seem to ignore this when talking about EH? Surely preventing damage is better than just taking more if things are otherwise equivalent?

In any case, between the on-use, the mitigation, the EH and the interesting mechanics of certain fights such as Anub'arak, it's a great trinket. There's no reason not to get it eventually.

Bovinity
10-22-2009, 04:07 PM
Well, the big reason - for my thinking, at least - is that the on-use effect is really quite a small amount of dodge, overall, and can't prevent things like Impale, Freezing Slash, etc.

Combine that with the fact that armor is often non-applicable in many situations that are dangerous to a tank (But, granted, better in some others) and that druids scale so sickeningly well off of stamina...well, it's hard to give up even a Brewfest stein for it in most fights. =/

Mookey
10-23-2009, 12:18 AM
Quite a small amount of dodge, overall, and can't prevent things like Impale, Freezing Slash, etc.


Can't but can prevent "NEXT" hit right after impale/Freezing slash :P First ones are not killers



Combine that with the fact that armor is often non-applicable in many situations that are dangerous to a tank

When you are stunned - when you take Freezing slash / Ferocious but, and (to certain extent) - Unbalancing strike, only things that can save you are miss gained from defense / health pool / armor, in this situations only miss and armor will reduce damage, armor will reduce it and miss will "add chance to avoid it" so armor in long term is very valuable stat.

Martie
10-23-2009, 12:53 AM
Well, the big reason - for my thinking, at least - is that the on-use effect is really quite a small amount of dodge, overall, and can't prevent things like Impale, Freezing Slash, etc.

Seriously? A small amount?
That 8-10% of dodge that you gain from the trinket is quite a lot if you remember that it's effective avoidance that counts.
This is how effective avoidance works.
The first 10% avoidance that you get gives you just that - 10% avoidance. Where you would normally take 10 hits, you now take 9.
The second 10% avoidance gives you a bit more - you go down from 9 hits taken to 8 hits taken, so it'd work out to about 11%.
This goes on and on, and that same 10% avoidance will get you more and more net results when compared to the situation before getting that 10%.

Since tanks at that level should be sitting at about 60% avoidance, you can easily double the avoidance gained from the trinket.
When used wisely, it can make some fights a lot easier on the healers, and that can save you. No guarantees, but your odds get better.



Combine that with the fact that armor is often non-applicable in many situations that are dangerous to a tank (But, granted, better in some others) and that druids scale so sickeningly well off of stamina...well, it's hard to give up even a Brewfest stein for it in most fights. =/
Most of the big tank killers I can recall are affected by armor, though having a big health pool is very nice indeed. Dunno how the scaling is for druids, but I'll take a usefull cooldown over the extra stamina the brewfest trinkets give when compared to the heart of iron of the royal seal of king llane.

Xianth
10-23-2009, 02:03 AM
Well, impale is mitgated by armor and is mostly threatening when combined with a hit (dodgable, mitgated by armor). Freezing slash isnt dangerous on its own, the fact you get frozen means a hit then a slash are followed by a ~90% hit chance - most of the damage in this scenario is also physical. So, as you can see there are only minor non-mitgated components in both these scenarios and unless you are dying by around 500 HP overkill or less then the extra EHP is not worth the sacrifice for all the other benefits.

Obviously from a druid standpoint you probably get less from the on use but still, the argument for the trinket still stands pretty strong :)

Tengenstein
10-23-2009, 05:16 AM
Gormok's impale is mitigated by armour? i thought it was effectively a bleed effect and such ignored armour

Athenodorus
10-23-2009, 06:02 AM
I believe the initial hit is physical.

Xianth
10-23-2009, 01:59 PM
Gormok's impale is mitigated by armour? i thought it was effectively a bleed effect and such ignored armour


The initial hit, which is the main thing which will kill you.

Bovinity
10-23-2009, 02:18 PM
That 8-10% of dodge that you gain from the trinket is quite a lot if you remember that it's effective avoidance that counts.Completely unbuffed I get about 6.5% from it. Raid buffed I'm sure it'll be even less. =(


Most of the big tank killers I can recall are affected by armor, though having a big health pool is very nice indeed. Dunno how the scaling is for druids, but I'll take a usefull cooldown over the extra stamina the brewfest trinkets give when compared to the heart of iron of the royal seal of king llane.It's about 1.6x stamina modifier for druids, if I recall correctly. So yeah, we just get truckloads of HP from it.

I spoke too broadly when I talked about armor and tank killers, though. I didn't mean for it to sound like it was useless in that regard. Just that - for example - on an Impale -> Melee -> DoT Tick situation the armor is only "helping" on two out of three.

I also sort of mixed up my "armor" and "avoidance" thoughts in my head. ><

saeyrtehtank
10-25-2009, 12:36 PM
Instead of the brewfest trinkets try and get the black heart, you lose around 50 stam but the proc on it is amazing, 7k armour.

Aggathon
10-26-2009, 01:03 PM
Don't discount the trinket solely because it's less EH; in addition to the on-use ability, it actually prevents damage, which can be more valuable than stamina when gauging things.

Seriously, why does everyone seem to ignore this when talking about EH? Surely preventing damage is better than just taking more if things are otherwise equivalent?

In any case, between the on-use, the mitigation, the EH and the interesting mechanics of certain fights such as Anub'arak, it's a great trinket. There's no reason not to get it eventually.

I will agree that armor, if given equal EHP to stamina, should be taken over stam for physical situations. It is much better to mitigate it than to eat it. I can guarentee that healers would hate having a tank with zero mitigation but 200k hps.

HAVING SAID THAT, at my gear levels the ability to heal me isn't really an issue depending on if it is raw stam or armor. I mean... pally overhealing meters are crazy. You shouldn't sack armor to the point where this becomes untenable, but at the point in time your healers can heal the damage you'd take and stam provides more EHP than armor, then imo you should take the stam. But I'd say this depends on the fight and your healers.

Racker
11-04-2009, 11:37 PM
I saw that trinket and i plan on sticking with 2 stam trinkets till i can be 40k unbuffed with the glyph.

Aggathon
11-04-2009, 11:52 PM
I saw that trinket and i plan on sticking with 2 stam trinkets till i can be 40k unbuffed with the glyph.


Stick with stam anyways. Fully buffed heart of iron won out over glyph of indom by quite a bit of EHP when I did the calcs.

Oberst
11-05-2009, 10:28 AM
I think a big question that needs to asked about this trinket is this:

With the nerf to dodge in Icecrown Citadel, and the balancing of damage being dealt to tanks, does armor become an even bigger asset because of the added mitigation to less spiky damage.

Im currently using The Black Heart and one brewfest trinket, and I am planning to get the glyph next week when I get the badges for it.

markv
11-06-2009, 07:06 AM
I personally use the Juggernaut and Indom as my two trinkets. I'm at a point where my health pool is so ridiculous I'd rather make the healers life a bit easier by smoothing out the damage I do take. But I've also been lucky as hell with drops too so I know I'm not your average player in the gear department so what may work for me might not work for you.

Aggathon
11-06-2009, 02:59 PM
I personally use the Juggernaut and Indom as my two trinkets. I'm at a point where my health pool is so ridiculous I'd rather make the healers life a bit easier by smoothing out the damage I do take. But I've also been lucky as hell with drops too so I know I'm not your average player in the gear department so what may work for me might not work for you.


Glyph of indom is like 2kEHP less than the 245 Jug's Vit. If you have access to both the Jug's Vits, they are clear winners imo. Even Heart of Iron and Brewfest trinkets are better imo. If the EHP gain is at as wide a gap as it is between the two trinkets then I choose the one with more EHP regardless of if it's stam or Armor. Trust me, your healers can heal 500 hp more, go look at overhealing meters.

Also: Dodge trinkets do not even out your damage, they actually make it more spikey which is one of the reasons for Icewell Radiance in the first place. Even then, normal damage taken is fine, you want the EHP for the extra survivability against attacks that can't be avoided.

krc
11-06-2009, 03:06 PM
Glyph of indom is like 2kEHP less than the 245 Jug's Vit. If you have access to both the Jug's Vits, they are clear winners imo. Even Heart of Iron and Brewfest trinkets are better imo.

I agree with you for the most part other than the part about the brewfest trinkets. I think the best on use in the game that the Glyph of Indom has will save you from death more often than the 220 EH upgrade you will receive from the brewfest trinkets.

Aggathon
11-06-2009, 03:10 PM
I agree with you for the most part other than the part about the brewfest trinkets. I think the best on use in the game that the Glyph of Indom has will save you from death more often than the 220 EH upgrade you will receive from the brewfest trinkets.

Heart of iron is like 600 EHP better than glyph of indom.

krc
11-06-2009, 03:28 PM
Heart of iron is like 600 EHP better than glyph of indom.

Actually no a fully buffed tank in around BiS gear with the Heart of Iron has 54391 HP and 30058 armor which is 152,671 EH. A fully buffed tank in around BiS gear with the Glyph of Indom has 52051 HP and 31850 armor which is 153,021 EH this means that the buffed the Glyph of Indom actually gives more EH than the Heart of Iron.

Aggathon
11-06-2009, 03:31 PM
Actually no a fully buffed tank in around BiS gear with the Heart of Iron has 54391 HP and 30058 armor which is 152,671 EH. A fully buffed tank in around BiS gear with the Glyph of Indom has 52051 HP and 31850 armor which is 153,021 EH this means that the buffed the Glyph of Indom actually gives more EH than the Heart of Iron.

How is that BiS gear? I have over 2.5k more armor than that in some really good gear, but definitely not BiS gear, and that's without glyph of indom.

I also ran the calculations both buffed and unbuffed at my gear levels and glyph of indom was far behind in both scenarios, I'm not at home right now so I can't post exact numbers, but maybe I will when I get home.

Aggathon
11-06-2009, 03:45 PM
Furthermore those aren't even the right values, for 54391 HP and 30058 armor I get 169634.24 and for 52051 HP and 31850 armor I get 168566.46

169634.24
- 168566.46
1067.98

According to your stats Heart of Iron would be 1067.98 more EHP.

krc
11-06-2009, 03:50 PM
Which EH calculator are using? With those same exact values on the Tankingtips.com EH calculator I get completely different results than you are getting.

Aggathon
11-06-2009, 03:52 PM
Which EH calculator are using? With those same exact values on the Tankingtips.com EH calculator I get completely different results than you are getting.

Tankspot's. I used the Tankadin2 addon in game to calculate the values and as I recall they came out the same as Tankspot's.

krc
11-06-2009, 03:58 PM
That means that their is something wrong in either Tankspot's and the addon or Tankingtip's if both of Tankspot and the addon say 169,634 EH you are probably right and there is probably something wrong or outdated in Tankingtip's calculator and Heart of Iron actually does give more EH.

Aggathon
11-06-2009, 04:00 PM
That means that their is something wrong in either Tankspot's and the addon or Tankingtip's if both of Tankspot and the addon say 169,634 EH you are probably right and there is probably something wrong or outdated in Tankingtip's calculator and Heart of Iron actually does give more EH.

I'll try and confirm the numbers with Tankadin2 when I get home, but that'll be at like 5am CST

Libicocco
11-06-2009, 10:53 PM
I wouldn't think that spiky damage intake is much of a concern as regards to a trinket where the dodge comes from an activated cooldown.

Pretty much by definition if you're using cooldowns, smoothing out damage is not a priority at that specific moment - surviving it in the first place is.

Bethrezen
11-07-2009, 02:30 AM
Replaces Heart of Iron. A must have.

Aggathon
11-07-2009, 03:09 AM
Replaces Heart of Iron. A must have.

Not necessarily, recheck stats.

Also: I'm still at work, turns out I have to stay until 6:30... FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FF, so ya, I won't get a chance to post the EHP shenanigans tonight 'cuz as soon as I get off work I'm gonna go home and pass out.

markv
11-07-2009, 03:37 AM
I'm not sure where I made note of me using a dodge trinket in there, but ok? The on use is handy as an oh crap button when you're hoping for a last second heal, but that's going to come regardless of using an AC or STA trinket, I just prefer the option of having more CDs available if needed. As I said, this is the preference I choose to make their life a bit easier, and I'm well aware of what my healers can and cannot do.

Gotta love it when I post what I use just to give the OP some idea of what other people use and get talked down to by someone regarding it.


Glyph of indom is like 2kEHP less than the 245 Jug's Vit. If you have access to both the Jug's Vits, they are clear winners imo. Even Heart of Iron and Brewfest trinkets are better imo. If the EHP gain is at as wide a gap as it is between the two trinkets then I choose the one with more EHP regardless of if it's stam or Armor. Trust me, your healers can heal 500 hp more, go look at overhealing meters.

Also: Dodge trinkets do not even out your damage, they actually make it more spikey which is one of the reasons for Icewell Radiance in the first place. Even then, normal damage taken is fine, you want the EHP for the extra survivability against attacks that can't be avoided.

TomHuxley
11-08-2009, 08:26 AM
Honestly, the Glyph of Indominability is far better than the brewfest trinkets unless you are on Mimiron or one of the few other boss fights where magic damage is the main killer.

TBH, when I see a tank with dual brewfest trinkets in their default strutting suit I assume they are either new (and hence haven't had much access to trinkets) or don't know much about tanking.

Now if have both and whip them out in the right situation then more power to you. If you just wear them all the time because it makes your HP look better, then meh.

Athenodorus
11-08-2009, 08:45 AM
At my current gear level: Unbuffed, the brewfest trinket wins out by 1000 EHP. But raid buffed, the glyph pulls ahead by 500 EHP or so. So the glyph is the right choice (for me, at least) except in extreme no-armor-mitigation situations. That's not even counting the click effect.

Nephelai
11-08-2009, 09:25 AM
Also: Dodge trinkets do not even out your damage, they actually make it more spikey which is one of the reasons for Icewell Radiance in the first place. Even then, normal damage taken is fine, you want the EHP for the extra survivability against attacks that can't be avoided.

Yes and no. The arms race between higher levels of avoidance and trying to design raid bosses that continue to threaten a tank at higher levels of avoidance has resulted in harder and harder hitting bosses, resulting in insane damage spikes that occur when you fail to avoid successive hits, BUT, the dev's do not step into the game and increase the per hit damage even more when you proc a dodge trinket, so gearing with one will reduce your spike damage because it will reduce the odds that you will take successive hits.

The spike damage problem that you are talking about is an issue of game design versus the average end game tank, but it is not true that adding avoidance will make an individual end game tanks spike damage worse. In fact it will make it more rare.

Dresk
11-08-2009, 09:41 AM
Adding avoidance decreases overall damage taken. The more avoidance you add, the more powerful it is. That stated, increasing avoidance can make the damage a tank takes seem more spikey. Going three to four seconds without getting hit and then taking three attacks in a row can make healing an avoidance-heavy tank feel unpredictable. The avoidance tank will take less damage than the one just stacking stam.

For me, glyph replaced the black heart and was a major EH upgrade. Remember the tankspot mantra, "Gear for the encounter" and use what works best for what you are doing.

Aggathon
11-08-2009, 10:23 AM
Let me clarify, more avoidance isn't bad. More avoidance while sacking EH is bad and makes tanks seem more spikey. So getting 2% dodge and dropping 170stam or w/e, while yes, might decrease overall damage, but it will make you seem spikier.

ae0n3
11-10-2009, 08:52 AM
Let me clarify, more avoidance isn't bad. More avoidance while sacking EH is bad and makes tanks seem more spikey. So getting 2% dodge and dropping 170stam or w/e, while yes, might decrease overall damage, but it will make you seem spikier.

Anyone else confused by the logic behind this statement?

Wilhem
11-10-2009, 09:15 AM
What he means is that you will get hit less frequently, but when you do get hit it will take a larger percentage of your health away, therefore seeming, "more spikey."

This is similar to the logic Blizzard is using for the Icecrown Radiance debuff.

Kazeyonoma
11-10-2009, 09:23 AM
No, it makes sense.

You can smooth out your overall damage taken during a fight by adding more avoidance. This is true, because over an entire duration of the fight, your total avoidance will be more accurately represented.

1000 swings in a fight, 60% avoidance leads to 600 swings avoided in the long run give or take. So adding two percent avoidance on top of that leads to 62% avoidace and 620 swings avoided. That's less damage taken OVERALL.

However, if you sacrifice EH or in this case just Stamina, to gain that 2% you're still reducing the OVERALL damage taken over the fight, but due to having a lower HP pool, every hit that does land makes you take more considerable damage. (20k damage to 30k health versus 20k damage to 32k health) This gives this impression of being "spikier" to yourself, raiders, and especially healers. You seem to jump from 100% to 30% quickly as opposed to jumping from 100% to say 37.5%. Also most content that can kill tanks isn't about overall damage taken, it's about bursts of damage taken, and in those event, commonly avoidance doesn't help.

Martie
11-10-2009, 09:40 AM
I see it more as a per-fight calculation.


If you simplify it a lot, it's somewhat like this.
Say a boss hits me for 25k, and I'm on 51k buffed health. It'll take three successive hits to kill me. At this point, choosing 2% dodge over 170 stamina would be better, since you reduce damage taken and make the average time between the first and third connecting blow longer.
If that same boss hits for 26k, I will die from two successive hits. At this point, 170 stamina will push me to about 53k health, allowing me to survive an additional blow, so here stamina is clearly better.

Of course, it's never quite that simple, but it helps a lot if you carry a few trinkets around to change your gear by a bit for every fight. Auriaya's cats are a lot easier to tank with more avoidance, for example. Hodir and thorim require vast health pools. Freya hits weakly enough for avoidance to be preferred. Most bosses give slight advantages as one vs the other.

Of course, if you are working on content that is pushing the limits of your gear, I'd go with stamina almost all the time - that extra health buffer is too valuable to pass up on.

Bovinity
11-10-2009, 10:13 AM
If you simplify it a lot, it's somewhat like this.
Say a boss hits me for 25k, and I'm on 51k buffed health. It'll take three successive hits to kill me. At this point, choosing 2% dodge over 170 stamina would be better, since you reduce damage taken and make the average time between the first and third connecting blow longer.

Adding more stamina isn't just about surviving 3 hits in a row though. More stamina also means you have to be healed less to survive the next hit.

Granted, your healers probably keep you topped off whenever they can, but that might not always be the case.

So if you're topped off and that boss is hitting you for 25k and you have 51k health and you get hit twice, your healers have to heal you for 24,001 hp to keep you from dying to the next hit. But if you had, say, 58k hp then they'd only have to heal you for 17,001 to keep you from dying to the next hit.

Sure, that's a bad-case-scenario that maybe your healers shouldn't be in very often, but it can make a difference.

Moridin
11-10-2009, 01:38 PM
The Glyph is an excellent trinket, depending on what fight you are in. As an earlier poster said, it works wonders for melee heavy fights, it stands above other trinkets by a long shot on fights like Gormok and Yogg+0. In fights like that I use my Glyph and also the 258 Satrina's Impeding Scarab. Otherwise I would use Satrina and Heart of Iron for less melee heavy fights e.g. Firefighter.

Also as another poster said earlier, don't be lazy, swap your trinkets for different fights.

Xianth
11-10-2009, 02:53 PM
Adding more stamina isn't just about surviving 3 hits in a row though. More stamina also means you have to be healed less to survive the next hit.

Granted, your healers probably keep you topped off whenever they can, but that might not always be the case.

So if you're topped off and that boss is hitting you for 25k and you have 51k health and you get hit twice, your healers have to heal you for 24,001 hp to keep you from dying to the next hit. But if you had, say, 58k hp then they'd only have to heal you for 17,001 to keep you from dying to the next hit.

Sure, that's a bad-case-scenario that maybe your healers shouldn't be in very often, but it can make a difference.


But then we're going into the realms of timelines of events, and you being hit before big spike means you need to be healed up, but avoidance means you have less chance to take that hit in the first place OR take a hit soon after without being able to be topped fast enough (say only one healer gets a heal in before another 25k melee hit comes). This sort of estimation also only works for certain damage/healing before next hit/damage of next hit combos, and isn't a scalar chance of survivial. Not only that, but there's so many variables from the incoming healing that the only real accurate judgement of your HP is topped or not topped. In 25 man you will be topped alot of the time because of plentiful healers dropping constant heals on you and the only deaths come from the "trick" moves that are put in as a tester (like impale, freezing slash) so you die within the space of 0.5 seconds.

EH is there to greatly increase your survival against the main risk factors of certain fights and eventually you reach a point where you EH is enough to deal with those spikes. After that you will only die if you are not topped or near enough topped, but realistically finding a gap between dealing with the 50k spike and 80k spike+hit combo isnt gonna happen by just stacking more health and hoping the healers get the right amount of heals in between (even just 5k HP difference doesn't seem that much but it's stilll A LOT of stamina). It's much easier to see the affect of avoidance for damage timelines in 10 mans (well, hard modes) where you usually have one tank healer, if you take 3 hits in a row you will die if a big spike move comes after (or even say, 2 more melee hits) cause eventually your healer can't ahead of the damage to keep you up to full HP with all those constant tanks hits. Anub 10 is a case and point of this, because hit/slash/hit won't kill you outright even in just 226/232 gear, it's being low before from taking several hits or taking 2/3 successive hits after that will.

Of course, once you reach the magic level of EH to survive the spikes, what you do after starts to get pretty academic because anything after that is just damage limitation methods to ensure you're always at or near enough full health when the big spike comes.

Bovinity
11-10-2009, 03:18 PM
but avoidance means you have less chance to take that hit in the first place OR take a hit soon after without being able to be topped fast enough (say only one healer gets a heal in before another 25k melee hit comes).


It's much easier to see the affect of avoidance for damage timelines in 10 mans (well, hard modes) where you usually have one tank healer, if you take 3 hits in a row you will die if a big spike move comes after (or even say, 2 more melee hits) cause eventually your healer can't ahead of the damage to keep you up to full HP with all those constant tanks hits.

The problem with that is that you're assuming that the tank would die if he took all those hits, and if that's the case he WILL die eventually in the fight no matter what. The avoidance is going to fail him eventually.

Of course, that would only be the case if they weren't at the required EH level to survive, and you already addressed that, so I'm a little lost as to where you were going with that. =) Unless the healers are really stressing with keeping the tank up through normal hits, then it'd be an issue with healer throughput much of the time.

In any case I still stand by my comments about stamina/EH. Even after the EH requirement point, and before the "survive another hit without heals" point, that buffer in between can be helpful to the tank and healers. Even in your example where the healers are stressing with keeping the tank at a high enough HP to survive an incoming burst, that extra EH buffer means that the tank will need less healing after a normal hit to survive the next incoming burst spike.

Of course avoidance has its role in that too. I'm just so jaded against it nowadays. It helps tremendously with lowering overall incoming damage over a fight, but it's always going to fail you in those real crisis situations in current raid design. =(

Xianth
11-11-2009, 12:41 AM
The problem with that is that you're assuming that the tank would die if he took all those hits, and if that's the case he WILL die eventually in the fight no matter what. The avoidance is going to fail him eventually.

Of course, that would only be the case if they weren't at the required EH level to survive, and you already addressed that, so I'm a little lost as to where you were going with that. =) Unless the healers are really stressing with keeping the tank up through normal hits, then it'd be an issue with healer throughput much of the time.

In any case I still stand by my comments about stamina/EH. Even after the EH requirement point, and before the "survive another hit without heals" point, that buffer in between can be helpful to the tank and healers. Even in your example where the healers are stressing with keeping the tank at a high enough HP to survive an incoming burst, that extra EH buffer means that the tank will need less healing after a normal hit to survive the next incoming burst spike.

Of course avoidance has its role in that too. I'm just so jaded against it nowadays. It helps tremendously with lowering overall incoming damage over a fight, but it's always going to fail you in those real crisis situations in current raid design. =(


I'm not saying using EH as an extra buffer doesnt work, but as discussed it can prove to be similar to avoidance in that it only benefits you X% of the time but the RNG is damage/healing/time-before-spike instead of a dice roll. I'm just trying to bring a more level playing field to the discussions with regarding to gearing after you've got the magic level of EH. Also, I think an additional problem with avoidance is you don't know when it saved you, only when it failed you.

Aggathon
11-11-2009, 05:37 AM
I think there's a commonly held, and very intuitive, but incorrect assumption about healing/tanking that seems logical, but isn't necessarily true at this point in time, and that is that Avoidance makes a tank EASIER to heal. Now there is absolutely no arguing that over the course of a fight you will take less damage, but we're talking about a small portion of a fight when we talk about healing when a tank dies, and more avoidance actually leads to less consistent damage, even though it is less damage overall.

The answer is right in our face: Do healers say that druids (the raw EHP tanks) are harder to heal than warriors (lots lower EHP, but about 15-20% increased avoidance)? The answer: no, a lot of healers LOVE druids because they view them as easier to heal. They have huge HP buffers and their damage is more predictable. Goto the HALP! forums. Go count up how many warriors there are wondering how they can survive gormok, then count up the number of druids wondering.

Yes, obviously there are a LOT more variables in here than just EHP and Avoidance due to class mechanics and also different situations, but I mean... that much more EHP and THAT much less avoidance should account for something, yet people are saying the best tanks to have right now are druids or pallies (both have the highest raw EH values, esp if you start running funky calcs with AD).

Do I agree that druids are better than warriors? No, but I also think that a druid or DK is the best class to tank Anub in heroic 25. I def. think a warrior or pally could do it, but the druid just has the EHP for it to make it more survivable.

A lot of avoidance arguments are what ifs, and perfect scenarios where a dodge actually occurs, but I've found that in practice, having a bigger buffer for your healers, however small or large it may be, increases survivability given the current content.

When this changes, I will stop stacking EHP, until then, I'm keeping my EHP trinkets.

felhoof
11-11-2009, 09:17 AM
The answer is right in our face: Do healers say that druids (the raw EHP tanks) are harder to heal than warriors (lots lower EHP, but about 15-20% increased avoidance)? The answer: noActually, it really depends on what you're doing. Healers often say I'm harder to heal on Algalon compared to the warrior/DK that does it, for instance.

Healers often say that druids are much harder to heal than other tanks in 5-mans, and voted that druids were their least preferential tank.

If you're claiming that DKs are better than paladins to tank Anubarak that's reasonable - but if you're doing it because of EH, you're insane. Paladins have a very large lead in EH over DKs right now, and AD is very, very good when tanking him. DK's big advantage is the large amount of resistance they can get, which has nothing to do with EH.

The people that are saying druids and paladins are the 'best' tanks are the ones who are also saying that EH is the be-all, end all of tanking. It's a tautology.

Finally, this was profoundly silly:

Goto the HALP! forums. Go count up how many warriors there are wondering how they can survive gormok, then count up the number of druids wondering.Count up the number of posts on this entire site that are about druids at all. Then divide the help questions by that value. Tankspot has always been a warrior-centric site since its inception. Using that as an indication that druids are somehow advantaged is ignorant to the extreme.

To compare, if you go to my blog and count up the number of warriors asking for help, you'll find only a couple. That clearly means that warriors are doing just fine, because I get plenty of requests from druids asking for help, amirite?

Nephelai
11-11-2009, 09:58 AM
If you're claiming that DKs are better than paladins to tank Anubarak that's reasonable - but if you're doing it because of EH, you're insane. Paladins have a very large lead in EH over DKs right now, and AD is very, very good when tanking him. DK's big advantage is the large amount of resistance they can get, which has nothing to do with EH.


Resistance is to EH against magic damage what Armor is to EH against physical damage. Just as when calculating EH against a melee swing you take into account both health and armor, when doing the same for magic damage you must take into account both health and resistance.

felhoof
11-11-2009, 10:54 AM
Resistance is to EH against magic damage what Armor is to EH against physical damage. Just as when calculating EH against a melee swing you take into account both health and armor, when doing the same for magic damage you must take into account both health and resistance.Okay, but then he's using the wrong term. MEH is commonly used for magic effective health. No one says that DKs have more EH right out of the box.

And heck, if you want to put it in those terms, you might as well say that LWs and Alchemists are the best tanks on Anub'arak because they have the most EH.

All of that is a silly argument anyway, because it isn't the effective HEALTH part that matters on Anub'; it's the resistance means no healing. It's like saying that having a block set increases your EH; it's using EH in an insane way that isn't what you think it means and certainly isn't what's written here.

Aggathon
11-11-2009, 02:35 PM
Yes, obviously there are a LOT more variables in here than just EHP and Avoidance due to class mechanics and also different situations

^ I figured this qualifier would have been enough to count for the class specific variables, but I guess not, and once again I've gotten people all uppidy.

Also EHP is effective hit points, MEH is magical effective health, and PEH is physical effective health, EHP encompasses both, but most EHP convos are talking just about the physical side. Also: it really depends on what spec of DK. Our DK offtank usually is dps, so he doesn't have very good tank gear, but he is almost as high as our pally as blood, and frost DKs have tons of armor iirc, but I will VERY readily admit that I don't know jack about DKs. That's the class specific thing I was talking about.

My healers have never had a problem keeping up our druid through impales. when we were first doing the fight, both me and our paladin had problems at first (though the pally got a freebee b/c of AD a few times =P ). And while a lot of people say they needed lots of avoidance to do general hardmode, pre-nerf we had a druid stack massive amounts of HPs and solo tanked the fight.

BuliwynT
11-11-2009, 06:29 PM
I read the first page.. and some posters talking about avoidance.

I know avoidance isn't useless. I understand the theory behind avoidance making 2nd, 3rd, 4th, x number of strikes to have a less likely chance to hit you consecutively... but... isn't it a fact, that the 2nd, 3rd, and everything else, STILL has the exact same randomness as the 1st? If you have 60% avoidance, and you get hit, that next hit doesn't miraculously have a 70% chance to miss because you were hit by the first... it's still 60%.

So... that's where the argument falls flat on me. It's still random.

As for the armour trinket - I'm glad people have found it to be useful even over a similar level stam trinket for certain fights. I guess I was one of the ones who made the mistake of just relying on the stam trinkets after seeing they were more EH, but now I kinda wanna pick it up just because. :)

And the use on the glyph is really helpful, especially when used in conjunction with another dodge or parry use trinket. But... I really think the use effect on an armour trinket should be a health bonus, as it would compliment the armour provided more than.. well, dodging, would.

Nephelai
11-11-2009, 08:39 PM
I read the first page.. and some posters talking about avoidance.

I know avoidance isn't useless. I understand the theory behind avoidance making 2nd, 3rd, 4th, x number of strikes to have a less likely chance to hit you consecutively... but... isn't it a fact, that the 2nd, 3rd, and everything else, STILL has the exact same randomness as the 1st? If you have 60% avoidance, and you get hit, that next hit doesn't miraculously have a 70% chance to miss because you were hit by the first... it's still 60%.

So... that's where the argument falls flat on me. It's still random.

As for the armour trinket - I'm glad people have found it to be useful even over a similar level stam trinket for certain fights. I guess I was one of the ones who made the mistake of just relying on the stam trinkets after seeing they were more EH, but now I kinda wanna pick it up just because. :)

And the use on the glyph is really helpful, especially when used in conjunction with another dodge or parry use trinket. But... I really think the use effect on an armour trinket should be a health bonus, as it would compliment the armour provided more than.. well, dodging, would.

Yes, each event is independant and does not impact the odds of successive events, but the issue is reducing the frequency of spike damage... Lowering the number of times you take 3 consecutive hits from say 13 times in a fight to say 10 times in a figh reduces the opportunity for error.

The more often the streaks happen, the more likely they are to happen right when your healer gets cc'd, snowbalded, had to run to avoid fire/void zones/falling bat turd, etc... despite the fact that the odds of flipping 3 consecutive heads are only 12.5 percent, after each head the odds the next flip will be heads is still 50 percent... but over time the number and relative frequency of three hit strings is the issue.