View Full Version : HELP dodge vs stam
10-20-2009, 07:23 AM
I am sure you see other post by people asking the same quistion, and either i am to stupid or just to blind to find em, so ill go ahead and ask and take the beating.
My quistion is what to go for stam or dodge.
So far i been going for dodge and stam + a few HR gems so i can actually hit what i am aiming for.
My def is what it should be, but my stam is a bit low
so far i always had the idea that dodge is atleast as important as stam, cause if you dodge a hit you wont loose hp, and then the xtra 2k hp doesnt matter much, but since evry1 says i am wrong i guess there must be something bout it.
Please help me out,
10-20-2009, 07:39 AM
Increasing your EH is always important and you should always gem for stamina. Remember that there's lots of unavoidable damage in the game and those hits will always eat chunks of your health.
You will take more hits, that's true but healing you will also be more "predictable". Imho, gemming should be done aiming at stamina. 1 red gem should be dodge + stam to activate meta (austere earthsiege).
Your avoidance will increase with better gear. No point in gemming for it if you ask me :)
(Only exception I see here is for the unhittable set for tanking adds in anub hc).
Basically it depends on what you're tanking. For Naxxramas, the bosses hit light and fast, meaning high Avoidance, Block Rating and Block Value is very good at mitigating the incoming damage.
For Sarth, Malygos or Onyxia, the majority of the incoming damage is magical, which cannot be avoided - for these fights you'd be best to stack Stamina.
For Ulduar, you get more of a push toward Effective Health (HP and Armor) as the bosses there hit very slow and very hard and you need a reasonably-sized health pool to survive. While avoidance can slow that process significantly, it's not as definite as having x amount of HP, so people began to favour EH over Avoidance. Having said that, most encounters in Ulduar benefit from a mixture of the two, with Vezax perhaps slightly favouring Avoidance and Hodir or Mimiron favouring EH.
Moving into Trial of the Crusader, there are a number of mechanics in the fights which are dangerous for a tank - Gormok's Impale (and the accompanying bleed effect), Icehowl's stun, Jaraxxus' chain fireball, the Faction Champions' spell spam, Anub'arak's freeze - all of these things cannot be avoided for one reason or another, so Avoidance becomes much less important than EH (or just Stamina, for the magic damage listed above).
In a vacuum, Avoidance is just as important for a well-geared tank as his health pool but the reality of latter encounters is that Avoidance offers little help with the most dangerous parts of the fights. Some Avoidance still helps smooth out the rest of the attempt, but generally you'd let it come from gear and use straight Stam or Stam/Avoid hybrids in every socket (only use hybrids for +9 Stam or higher socket bonus).
Hit Rating is sorely lacking in Tier 9, but don't think that having 0 Hit Rating means you can't "actually hit stuff". Hit Rating doesn't increase your chance to hit, it reduces your chance to miss - as a result, being at zero Hit Rating means that your melee swings will still connect 92% of the time, which should be sufficient for holding aggro. Your taunt will hit 83% of the time, but this can be addressed with the Glyph of Taunt for sensitive fights.
As a result, I wouldn't personally recommend gemming for Hit if you're not having threat issues. If you do gem for Hit, make sure it's Hit/Stam rather than straight Hit and, again, the magic rule is to only match sockets if the bonus is favourable.
Unfortunately there's no straight answer to your question, which is why the topic of conversation goes around and around in circles. It's far more important to research and understand the encounters themselves and switch some of your gear around accordingly if necessary. Most tanks keep several trinkets, rings and even other pieces of gear in their bag and will switch pieces around based on the requirements of the specific encounter. It's not uncommon for a tank to have an avoidance set, a threat set, an EH set, a block set, and so on...
Hope that (sort of) answers your question - if you let us know the kind of content you're tanking just now and give us your Armory link I'll gladly give you some more specific advice for your gear. Good luck :)
10-20-2009, 07:42 AM
The biggest reason most tanks are advocating Stamina over Dodge right now is largely for progression tanking. In fights like Heroic Gormok, etc. you end up taking a lot of stacking damage that cannot be avoided - thus avoidance becomes much less important than making sure that you can survive those hits.
10-20-2009, 07:42 AM
-Hit/Expertise are both important untill caps. You can do a search for them here in the forums and get the exact answer you are looking for.
-Stam is an important factor right now for anything past Naxx
-I have never gemmed for dodge or parry, I let my gear take care of that for my normal day to day tanking. But there are situational events that some have gemmed alot of dodge for. But honestly I cant remember where I read it in these forums. There is a ratio you can use to get the max dodge/parry benefit before DR. Search for "avoidance" and you should find it here.
If you are in Naxx or Heroics. Go for the Hit/Expertise for threat if your healers are capable of keeping you up. If they are not capable, then lean towards the stam to give them the cushion they need.
If going into Ulduar, lean towards the stam once again untill you and your healers feel comfortable. Then lead towards the threat again.
I will most likely get flamed for this. But no one on this forum and tell you exactly what you are looking for. The variables and situations in the game are different for everyone of us given the time of the day.
It is up to you to analyze what you are doing, what is happening to you and how to gear for it.
10-20-2009, 08:03 AM
thanks a lot evry1 it sorted out a lot of my quistions.
And for you mert, i tank uldar and toc 10 man normal and heres the armory link, would appreciate if you could have a look and give me your opinion, btw that goes to all of you=)=).
And again thanks a lot all of you.
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=doomhammer&n=Dehmer)
There is a ratio you can use to get the max dodge/parry benefit before DR. Search for "avoidance" and you should find it here.
In case you need it, you get more Avoidance per point of Parry than per point of Dodge when (char_sheet_dodge% - 10) / (char_sheet_parry% - 10) > 1.88 :)
10-20-2009, 08:44 AM
any chance any1 can comment on my gems, and give a suggestion what to change?..
And again thanks for all your help.
10-20-2009, 08:54 AM
Not to sound like a jerk, but dude get a new shield before you worry about anything.
With Naxx25 Pugs being a dime a dozen these days there is no reason to still be sporting the TSSW.
After that, then look at your defense rating and see if you can loose some of the +def gems for stam. Loose the dodge gems and go for +stam.
There is a thread called BiS for warriors in the "gear section" check out the gemming recomendations there for keeping your meta bonus.
thanks a lot evry1 it sorted out a lot of my quistions.
And for you mert, i tank uldar and toc 10 man normal and heres the armory link, would appreciate if you could have a look and give me your opinion
I play a Paladin rather than a Warrior so I'll let someone more knowledgable talk about your spec etc. Looks fine to me, but Warrior specs aren't my area of expertise really.
I do have a couple of quick comments on your gear and enhancements though :)
Firstly, lose +10 All Stats on your chest - you're wasting large parts of the itemisation budget on stuff which doesn't benefit you at all, such as Int. You'd probably be best with either +22 Defense or +275 Health on there. From an iLevel perspective, +22 Defense is by far superior but you may prefer Super Health for the TotC encounters.
Cloak of the Iron Council is worth keeping hold of for your block set (you'll want it when you're tanking the adds on Heroic Anub, trust me :p) but you may wish to consider the Platinum Mesh Cloak which is available for Badges for your MT set - it has Def, Dodge and Hit and does away with some of the Block Rating. The unfortunate reality is that Block isn't great for most bosses as they hit so hard that shaving off 1.5k from each hit goes barely noticed. It's not necessary, but may tide you over and would certainly be good to have the option if you don't have access to 25-man Aurayia or 25-man Jaraxxus at the moment.
Your rings are absolutley great for an EH set but you may wish to look at some alternatives for your trinkets - The Black Heart drops in ToC 5-man Normal and has a nice chunk of Stamina with an awesome proc. Furnace Stone is definitely worth keeping though, as its on-use ability is absolutely amazing - pop that just before you get frozen by Anub and laugh as he tickles you, especially if you get a Black Heart proc at the same time. Hell, throw in an Indestructible Pot and you're pretty close to the Armor cap for 20 seconds!
For magic-heavy fights, dual Stam trinkets is often the way to go - if you missed the ones from Brewfest then Essence of Gossamer is probably your best choice outside of the one from Yogg-10 or Ignis-25. For some of the physical damage fights in Ulduar, a mixture of a Stam trinket and an Avoidance one is awesome (as I say, Black Heart and Furnace Stone make a formidable combo!)
Other than that, I'd say you're gemmed and enchanted pretty much fine - you have one pure Dodge, which I'd probably change to Dodge/Stam or Expertise/Stam, but otherwise you're fine. Hit and Expertise are good for threat and Expertise has the added bonus of mitigating your incoming damage spikes (by denying the boss from receiving parry haste). I personally let Expertise come from gear and ignore Hit as my threat is already fine for current content, but your mileage may vary - as Norik said, it's all about your own playstyle and what you feel you need based on your current gear etc.
Hope this has helped a little though - good luck :)
10-20-2009, 04:18 PM
Ok I took a quick peek at your build and it looks good though I do have a couple of things to point out.
First off you will want to farm wither ToC 5man normal for the Black Heart... It is a supreme tanking trinket, with +126 stam on it, it's a trinket no tank should ever pass up.
Second is that you should remove the glyph of vigilance you have at the moment and replace it with a glyph of devastate. Having a quick 5 stack of sunder on any boss will make the guys in the dps seats love you.
Nothing wrong with have that extra 5% threat but to be honest if someone is breaking threat while you are tanking they need to be talked too. All dps should know when to hold back and when to let loose. Vigi is best put on a high dps clothie just to help them out a bit I have found. Especially if you find yourself tanking the adds in LJ, having vigi on a mage or lock that tends to blast them hard enough to steal them is always good because it gives you a fresh taunt.
Last but not least... if you are in the habit of using demo shout in your rotation (which is a good habit to be in) then I would suggest looking at loosing the points in impale and deep wounds and putting them in Imp Demo Shout. 5 points is a 40% increase, very nice on bosses like Thor in Uld or even Anub in totc.
Anyway just a couple of suggestions... I could be wrong and these things dont work for you but its all trial and error anyway.
Good luck and happy tanking.