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View Full Version : Need pro help evaluating unsolicited advice



Kurtosis
10-20-2009, 05:49 AM
Hi all, I've got a bit of cognitive dissonance I need some help resolving. In a nutshell, someone I pugged with tonight gave me some DK tank gear and stat advice that I question (since it contradicts much of what I've learned on Tankspot). However, his guild is one of the better ones on our realm, and he's one of the top 3 or 4 geared DK tanks on our realm.

The pug's shamman healer, whose main is the DK tank ([URL="http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Maiev&cn=Bloodspoil&gn=Chilling+with+my+Gnomies), advised that I should regem my blood tank spec (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Maiev&n=Nightfreeze) from stamina to avoidance.

I attempted to explain I had gemmed for stam b/c Blood scales best with it, and that I know I'll take more hits, but will be better able to absorb a string of big hits and/or non-physical damage. That even 65% avoidance leaves you open for two or more successive 20k+ hits that 2shot a tank.

But he was insistent that stam stacking is for Pallies, while DK's need avoidance, and that I'd 'take less damage', be easier to heal, more survivable, and do more threat via more RS procs by stacking avoidance instead. His rule of thumb was get minimum 50% dodge + parry, then stamina.

However, this goes against everything I've learned at TS and elsewhere about EH Blood tank builds. Am I stacking stam prematurely for my gear level, perchance? I also wonder if he's accounting for the fact that what works for his UH tank build (which scales best w/ avoidance) may not work for a Blood tank build.

He was also insistent that his UH tank spec (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Maiev&cn=Bloodspoil&gn=Chilling+with+my+Gnomies), which excludes both Toughness and Improved Icy Touch, is the best tank build he's found, after spending thousands of gold on testing different specs and stat combinations.

He claims 5/5 Toughness only gives him 1% more mitigation at his gear level, and that threat talents like Dark Conviction and VotTW are more beneficial to him and his raid. He said nothing about the lost mitigation from not having IIT. I assume his gear level lets him forgo Toughness and IIT, but that doesn't mean I can.

So tell me, should I listen and try his advice (at the cost of over a 1000g in regemming)? Or not?

Synapse
10-20-2009, 05:52 AM
While i'm no specialist on dk tanking, avoidance / eh works the same to all tanks, and most of the hard encounters are not friendly towards avoidance. I've also always heard that the wonders of blood tanking is the immense eh and self healing.

and his claim on toughness has a wrong point of view. He's probably only looking at the increase in his dr% from armor, which is NOT equivalent to total mitigation. 60% armor to 61% armor is 2,5% less damage taken from physical blows, and it only gets better from there. That's the reason avoidance and armor have diminishing returns, or otherwise they'd be even more powerful.

Kherberos
10-20-2009, 05:57 AM
THB. he hasnt even done anything 25man hardmode( only 2 bosses in 10HM, cant rly say he knows his stuff) in colliseum. If he did he would find out the flaw in his reasoning.
Gormok would eat him up .

Im not a expert on DK's myself, but I will never agree with gemming for avoidance. Maybe if all you do is normal 10 man, but if you even aspire to do anything more just make sure you have enough HP to cover the fight your doing = stacking sta

And if you cant keep agro on your dps group then I think your doing something wrong. Its not like 1-2% more dodge from gemming is going to give you multiple K's of TPS worth due to RS.

ghromorth
10-20-2009, 02:28 PM
Less dmg avoidace its pally talk... you are a dk you get FULL hits, the apllies get hit for like 17k we get hoit for 24k... if he prefers avoidance then he its the carry of his guild, avoidance its good for heroics and naxx probably... but if u want to be able to tank the last end game instances then you gotta stack stamina and armor... (just get 45% avoidance, thats more than enough for a dk now a days).

you are not premature to stack stam and armor, the rule for me is: ~25%dodge, ~20%parry, you are ready to stack stam and armor, and trust me its better to stack armor and health than avoidance... (you gotta be prepared for the worst case)

Note:
Check your gems, i would only have one red gem, the rest are for stamina unless the bonus almost matches the stamina gain.

Kurtosis
10-21-2009, 08:55 PM
Thanks guys, appreciate it. Will reread how to calculate armor dr, I should know that well enough to explain it to someone in ingame chat, in case this happens again.


Check your gems, i would only have one red gem, the rest are for stamina unless the bonus almost matches the stamina gain.
Not sure I understand, since without all those red and purple gems, I'm below 26 Exp (and only have 25 in Frost spec). Can't really get rid of them yet can I?

ghromorth
10-22-2009, 06:29 PM
Thanks guys, appreciate it. Will reread how to calculate armor dr, I should know that well enough to explain it to someone in ingame chat, in case this happens again.


Not sure I understand, since without all those red and purple gems, I'm below 26 Exp (and only have 25 in Frost spec). Can't really get rid of them yet can I?

I really like to hit caps, but sometimes its just way too dificult, for example the gear in TogC has absolutly no hit, u barely get to 220 hit. With expertise is another thing, i was below 26 expertise from uld to toc and had no problem at all as long as you don't fall below 22 expertise you are good to go (unless you have aggro problems, then you need the expertise and hit otherwise screw it ;))

Fledern
10-23-2009, 06:41 AM
I go with the 25% dodge, 20% parry rule too. I'm more lenient on gemming, i try to nab the bonus stats as they are usually stam.

For a nice pure test of EH vs Avoidance discussion, just look at heroic Anubarak. You're frozen in place where your avoidance means f***, he's hitting you for large amounts. Which would you prefer? avoidance or EH?

As for hit/expertise, as a DK tank i found hit to be MUCH more important than expertise and also a lot more important than it is for a warrior/pally. Expertise gets you to get in more hits, nice for aggro, sure. But when your diseases fall off because you couldnt land your pestilance, that's a major loss in threat and hp at the same time as your deathstrikes wont be as good. Lack of hitrating is really hurting DK tanking a lot atm.

Kurtosis
10-23-2009, 09:13 PM
Alright, I'll experiment w/ getting up 25/20 dodge/parry and see how that works.

Sounds like Gormok is also a nice test of EH vs AV, since the impale dmg is unavoidable.

And yeah, missed Pest sucks, missed Taunt even moreso.

Martie
10-23-2009, 09:33 PM
Alright, I'll experiment w/ getting up 25/20 dodge/parry and see how that works.

Sounds like Gormok is also a nice test of EH vs AV, since the impale dmg is unavoidable.

And yeah, missed Pest sucks, missed Taunt even moreso.
It's tricky to determine what kills you on Gormok.
The Impale hit is hefty, but alone it shouldn't
The impale dot does nasty damage, but shouldn't kill you.
His melee damage goes up to amazing levels in heroic, but alone it won't kill you.

When doing it heroic mode, we struggled with tank deaths for a little while. As a standard, I want to know what kills me, so if I'm unsure, I'll check the recount death log (and the combat log if needed.)
What I found is that it's a combination of Impale hit+melee hit that kills you, so avoidance can actually be a great boon in the fight.

Avoidance helps with a lot of the other tank killers as well, even if not directly. While the big hit itself may not be avoidable, it does increase the chance of you being topped off completely before the big hit hits, and thereby it increases your chance of surviving the big hit.

The Gormok fight is also the reason I run with a glyphed taunt these days.

Wars
10-23-2009, 09:34 PM
What you should do is point him to this website. Make sure he does not make an account, he just reads the information. If he needs, tell him to make an account, PM me and I'll literally send him all the information I can gather on a dk tank in it's current incarnation.

I hate to sound like I am right now, but I wish people who wanted to pursue giving information and advice out to fledgling players should at least have to pass a type of test which makes sure they know their stuff!

Unfortunately, he is welcome to his opinion and his own conclusions, which I presume are based off of having a few talented healers and some great players around him. Good luck to him in the future!

Esch
10-23-2009, 10:52 PM
The unholy build linked is pure threat and relies on healers. Frankly, it reminds me of Sarth 3D builds where survival was the only concern. The give away, to me, was the RS and D&D glyphs, which are purely threat glyphs for tanks. I will say that avoidance is worthwhile, more so on a DK than a warrior or paladin, but the simple fact he values Vot3W's 3% stamina so highly is unusual, as he could get even more threat in Unholy with those points.

Stacking avoidance makes RS better for threat, as you get more procs and can maximize the RS T9 sigil (chance for 200 dodge rating on RS.. ~3% dodge for me). Again, threat benefits which fit his overall theme.

Achievements: If his group is so good, why hasn't he cleared 10 man Ulduar? I dislike calling that out but... huh?

Wars
10-23-2009, 11:14 PM
I'm not saying his group is good, I'm saying they are a good group compensating for his failures as a tank.

Stacking avoidance is only good enough until the DRs really start to set in. Example:Don't gem for dodge, it's not worth it, even in red sockets.

Disclaimer: I'm sure you can stack dodge and win. Most of us on these boards have gone through avoidance vs EH for over 4 YEARS now. Don't bring it up, avoidance loses every expansion for effectiveness.