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View Full Version : Why do I keep dying in Trial of the Crusader 25 Heroic?



Hargir
10-19-2009, 07:11 AM
So, our guild is making a bit of progress on Northrend beasts. Our setup is myself (warrior tank) a paladin tank and a druid tank.

The problem is that I keep dying :( I keep taking huge hits shortly following eachother, and our healers just can't keep up. The thing is that our other 2 tank don't seem to have the same problems. Gearwise we are on equal terms, so I am now thinking that either that encounter (Gormok) just doesn't favor warrior tanks, or that I am doing something very very wrong :)

The only thing I can think of is that I need more expertise, but I am at exp. rating 197 with reduced dodge/parry chance of 8.75% so I am not even sure that that is the thing.

Here are links to our attempts from last night and my armory. If anyone have the time to take a look, I would be much obliged :)

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/CiQyxshuply7bFvq/sum/damageDone/)

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dragonblight&n=Hargir)

Cheers from Hargir

Kuraf
10-19-2009, 07:36 AM
Since i'm at work, didn't look much into it but I can point out 2 things atm:

Thunder Clap 11 158.3 5.2 %

5.2% uptime is too low. Slower attacks = less incomming damage

Curse of Weakness 20 1500.4 48.8 %

48.8% isn't "bad" but could be better... make sure to use demo shout if you must. It'll help reduce the incomming damage a lot.

You could also be getting hit by the killer combo he usually does... CDs are usually the key there (from what i've read around here).

Edit: from a really quick analysis of your gear, i noticed u're using the brewfest trinket. imho, the black heart (from ToC) is far superior even tho it has a lil' bit less stamina. I would also replace parry gems for dodge gems or pure stam gems.

Squirrelnut
10-19-2009, 09:05 AM
I am also a tank on 25m ToTGC and have no problem with Gormok as a Warrior. The main difference I see between us is 4-5k unbuffed HP and 1.3k unbuffed armor.

I CONSTANTLY keep thunderclap/demo shout up on him. Beyond that just well timed cooldowns/trinkets make the fight fairly straight forward.

If you are having problems it can be helpful to have a Pally bop your stacks off to make it easier on your healers and allow them to catch up if they were falling behind on you.

I would keep your brewfest trinket until you get something better and throw the blackheart on as your 2nd trinket. Dodge/armor is fine but not as helpful on Gormok because you simply take so much damage you need as much health as physically possible.

EDIT: On a side note I would personally replace your glyph of Shockwave with either Taunt to help tank swaps or Blocking/Vigilance for added threat. Also replace your minor glyph of Mocking Blow with Charge for more mobility.

Kuraf
10-19-2009, 09:41 AM
Regarding the glyphs, i rather have vigilance or blocking (i feel that blocking is a must on every prot build tho).
Glyph of taunting isn't that needed for tank swaps imho... you can just vigilance the other tank and keep your taunt "refreshed"... if you miss the first, u'll be able to taunt again after GCD expires since your vigilance target got hit ;)

Smart use of vigilance saves lives :P

Hargir
10-19-2009, 02:30 PM
Well I regemmed a bit, replacing my +10 parry, +15 sta gems with one 30 sta gem and one dodge/sta gem. I also replaced my glyph of shockwave with glyph of vigilance. Seemed to help a bit. I still die a bit more than the other tanks, but they have better avoidance than me apparanly, so I guess I need some better gear also. But we did make some morwe progress, and almost got the worms down on one attempt.

Hargir

Aggathon
10-19-2009, 02:39 PM
Your unbuffed hps are far too low. You should be much closer to 40khp for H-NRB25. I'm assuming ya'll are using a 2/2/2 taunt rotation, the second time you're tanking you need to hit shield wall right before either the first impale or the second impale.

You are way over the defense softcap, while the extra avoidance is nice, there's no need to have any gem that has defense on it. Imo switch your weapon enchant to blooddraining and get rid of every gem that isn't +30 stam except for one +10dodge+15stam gem for your meta. Try to make that gem hit a stam bonus of at least 9.

Edit: I'd also suggest either 240 armor or 18 stam to gloves, if you're having issues on gormok stam to gloves will probably go farther for you though I'm still a huge proponent of 240 armor (though I'm an engineer so I get to cheat on that one).

Also 18 stam to shield, DEFINITELY use The Black Heart over your Fervor of the Frostborn, and 275 hps to chest. I'd also recommend Tuskarr's Vitality to boots over 22 stam as well as the 30 stam 15 resil PvP enchant over the Sons of Hodir exalted enchant on your shoulders.

Thundergnome
10-20-2009, 09:05 AM
In addition to what has been mentioned, you may also want to spec into improved demo shout

drae
10-20-2009, 10:23 AM
Demo shout and TC uptime on World of logs is not accurate in most cases as both tend to be overwritten by other buffs such as vindication and whatever the DK provides. The uptime on TC specifically may only be 5%, but uptime of the DK de-buff may be much higher.

Kuraf
10-20-2009, 10:33 AM
Thunder Clap 11 158.3 5.2 %
Frost Fever 161 1506.6 13.8 %


Curse of Weakness 20 1500.4 48.8 %
Vindication 674 1767.1 16.2 %

no demoralizing roar neither. Vindication is laughable when compared to the curse or the shout/roar... but well, any AP reduction is "good"

Both of them are still pretty far away from 90% (at least)

Zothor
10-20-2009, 10:47 AM
The answer you have tagged as "best answer" is not, and you should untag it if you want to continue to get good advice.

First, the "uptime" being shown on Gormok is not normalizing for the fact that Gormok is not alive the entire fight. So right there the 5% average you're seeing is pointless, since all but one of their attempts got into Phase 2.

Second and most importantly (this is tankspot... this should really be common knowledge by now) Thunderclap and Demo shout are not in any way exclusive buffs. He's using a Paladin and Druid tank as well. Thunderclap = Judgements of the Just = Infected wounds. Each one of them is overwriting each other when it gets applied. Add them UP. 5.2%+46.9%+6.3% = 58.4% uptime, which when you compare it to the top debuffs which can be safely believed to be on the boss the entire time at "60%", it's clear that swing speed debuff is NOT his problem.

As for the AP debuff, it's being covered by Vindication which surprisingly appears to be being put up by your RET paladin, and not your prot paladin. Kudos to your ret for taking a raid utility talent, but it's vaguely inexcusible that your prot paladin didn't take the talent - he should be putting the ap debuff on everything he's tanking and not relying on other tanks. Of course, his base spec is pretty suspect as well, since seals of the pure is inferior threat to Crusade for TOC. Might want to have him hit up some research on that.

It appears that Curse of Weakness and Vindication are not properly overwriting each other but I can assure you they do not stack. Your warlock is wasting his time and DPS putting curse of weakness up on a Vindicated mob.

Your problem is not these debuffs, your ret and prot paladins are keeping them up practically flawlessly.

Zothor
10-20-2009, 10:56 AM
Thunder Clap 11 158.3 5.2 %
Frost Fever 161 1506.6 13.8 %


Curse of Weakness 20 1500.4 48.8 %
Vindication 674 1767.1 16.2 %

no demoralizing roar neither. Vindication is laughable when compared to the curse or the shout/roar... but well, any AP reduction is "good"

Both of them are still pretty far away from 90% (at least)

Please do not take this poster's advice as it is horribly inaccurate.

First, you can clearly see from the -exact- same chart that shows those 5.2, 13.8, and 48.8 numbers that Vindication clocks in at 57.5%, with the highest full uptime debuffs being 60% and establishing a baseline for the ratio gormok being alive time on the attempts.

I will link directly to that chart to confirm:

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/CiQyxshuply7bFvq/details/105/?enc=bosses&boss=34796)

Click over to buffs.

SECOND: Vindication 2/2, Fully talented Demo shout, Curse of weakness and fully talented Demo Roar have THE EXACT SAME AP REDUCTION. You could not be more factually incorrect. The tooltip is wrong because Vindication scales with level. Go ahead and duel a level 80 prot paladin and a level 80 warrior with a talented demo shout, and you'll see the same AP reduction from the two debuffs. Vindication 2/2 is 574 AP reduction.

*grr*

Kuraf
10-20-2009, 11:45 AM
Indeed I reckon my inaccuracy @ the uptime (was analysing actor : gormok and assumed that WoL would only consider the time he was "up" and not the whole fight).

And my paladin knowledge is limited. Tooltip misled me xD



Second and most importantly (this is tankspot... this should really be common knowledge by now) Thunderclap and Demo shout are not in any way exclusive buffs. He's using a Paladin and Druid tank as well. Thunderclap = Judgements of the Just = Infected wounds. Each one of them is overwriting each other when it gets applied. Add them UP. 5.2%+46.9%+6.3% = 58.4% uptime, which when you compare it to the top debuffs which can be safely believed to be on the boss the entire time at "60%", it's clear that swing speed debuff is NOT his problem.

Frost fever will push it even higher covering the whole Gormok uptime (13% on the gormok analysis - innacurate value once again). Not 100% sure if it stacks or replaces with the others


Seems like AP reduction & Speed isn't the problem indeed... will look at this more closely once I get home.

As mentioned by Zothor, remove the best answer tag cause I failed badly >_>

Zothor
10-20-2009, 12:25 PM
Frost fever will push it even higher covering the whole Gormok uptime (13% on the gormok analysis - innacurate value once again). Not 100% sure if it stacks or replaces with the others

Given that they said they weren't using a DK tank, I ignored the DK tanking Debuffs. but yes, frost fever is also an option. I really don't know enough about DK DPS though to know if non-tank DKs are speccing into Improved Icy Touch, so who knows if they have the talents they'd need to catch up with that debuff in DPS specs.