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Dalemaunder
10-15-2009, 11:23 PM
Earlyer today i was in an onyxia 10 raid and when i went to pull onyxia, she 1 shot me:confused:.... i have no clue as to why this happened as im fairly well geared and ive tanked her before in 10/25 with no problems.If anyone has any clue as to why this happened then please tell me.

Heres my armory: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nagrand&n=Meownu)

Vorla
10-15-2009, 11:31 PM
Running any sort of logging software would have given you the straight answer right there and then, you should still be uncrittable with that resi enchant so there's nothing horribly wrong with your armory 'cept you're gemming for parry which I wouldn't.

That would however not kill you directly, so we can't answer unless you have some sort of log we can look at.

Eoika
10-15-2009, 11:34 PM
10 Man Ony somewhat soft, except for the occasional cleave which I have clocked at 31k at its highest. Its just something to be aware of. It shocked the hell out of me when I saw my health drop.

Dalemaunder
10-15-2009, 11:35 PM
Ok, could you tell me what i should be gemming in and how would i be able to get a log?

uglybbtoo
10-15-2009, 11:42 PM
Your defense is 538 + 15 res .. she is a raid boss you can be crit (you have a gap by my quick calc) which is a pretty good guess what happened.

Vorla
10-15-2009, 11:46 PM
Either you go the in-game way and try one of the many deathlog addons that exist, or you do /combatlog either manually or with the help of the excellent Loggerhead, and upload the log to WoL (which is my favorite, but WWS/WoWmeters works too) when you're done. This of course won't let us see what happened there and then, as the logger only outputs data if you first tell it to.

As for the gemming, Dodge and Parry gives diminishing returns at different rates, meaning that until you have almost twice (1.88:1) as much Dodge as Parry (it's a little bit more complicated, try a search for dodge vs parry ratio if you want to know the exact mechanics), you should stack dodge as it gives more avoidance per point.

I'm only using parry from gear and I'm at something like 1.75:1 at almost all times (only exception is if I pop both my dodge trinkets and have the dodge libram active at the same time), which means I keep stacking that dodge.

Dalemaunder
10-15-2009, 11:50 PM
Your defense is 538 + 15 res .. she is a raid boss you can be crit (you have a gap by my quick calc) which is a pretty good guess what happened.

Actualy no, on our 2nd attempt at her the OT tanked her instead of me and she dropped the helm im currently wearing, the armory just updated inbetween me socketing my helm and putting the chant from the argent crusade on it so i actualy have 542 def, not 238. The helm i used to have on was the Conqueror's Siegebreaker Greathelm which is socketed and chanted exactly the same as the new helm.

uglybbtoo
10-16-2009, 12:06 AM
Can't imagine how you get 1 shot then I have never seen anything near 20K. Her cleaves are listed as 15K and wing buffet and flame breath 20K unresisted ... so RNG perhaps with two one after another??

As others said get grim reaper or logs running to really know.

Fetzie
10-16-2009, 01:37 AM
Could be an unlucky cleave + melee hit falling together? I am fairly sure that flame breath resets her swing timer so it wouldnt be that. Onyxia has no ability that will one shot a tank straight out, there is no fusion punch or hateful strike.

You were crit immune with 538 def+15 resil so we can cut a crit out of the equation, only really leaving unlucky attack combos on the table.

Mookey
10-16-2009, 01:52 AM
17 expertise?
Wing buffet (kicked you out of range of healers)
Onyxia Melee you
OnNextSwing cleave
You hit Ony Ony parry
Parry hasted melee

Quite enough to kill someone with your level of gear, as others said you cannot ask questions until you are able to provide you with any sort of log.
1) Recount - deaths tab, easiest way
2) Good combat log e.g. "Hits Mode" addon
3) Loggerhead/Upload combat log, most advanced way gives you most informations.

Good tanking comes from anticipation of incomming damage from boss and getting your gear/talents set according to that.

Dalemaunder
10-16-2009, 02:13 AM
Could be an unlucky cleave + melee hit falling together? I am fairly sure that flame breath resets her swing timer so it wouldnt be that. Onyxia has no ability that will one shot a tank straight out, there is no fusion punch or hateful strike.

You were crit immune with 538 def+15 resil so we can cut a crit out of the equation, only really leaving unlucky attack combos on the table.

As i said before i did NOT have 538 def when it happened, i got the helm off her on the 2nd attempt when the OT tanked her instead, the armory just saved me wearing the helm between when i gemmed it and when i put the enchant on it(i had to get some money off my banker).


And to Mookey, it was on the very first hit when i pulled her that she 1 hit me so that eliminates half of the possibilitys you listed.

Mookey
10-16-2009, 02:20 AM
If you were crittable - half of the possibilities are quite enough :D

Mert
10-16-2009, 02:32 AM
Your defense is 538 + 15 res .. she is a raid boss you can be crit (you have a gap by my quick calc) which is a pretty good guess what happened.

15 Resilliance is approximately equal to 20 Defense Rating in terms of reducing the chances of receiving a critical strike. As a result, you can go down to 536 Defense Skill + 15 Resilliance and be uncrittable by a Level 83 mob.


Ok, could you tell me what i should be gemming in and how would i be able to get a log?

You can log at any time simply by typing /combatlog in chat. This will generate a report in "...\World of Warcraft\Logs\" called (I think, can't check as I'm at work) WoWCombatLog.txt. There a number of sites out there that can then take that file and produce a full report with graphs, information on incoming/outgoing damage and so on for your whole raid. The most popular of such logging sites is currently World of Logs at worldoflogs.com.

As for your gems, I'd move away from the Def/Parry gems and ensure that you're always using Stamina as at least half of each gem. I personally match socket bonuses of +9 Stam or higher and ignore all others in favour of straight Stam. For red sockets with a good bonus, use Dodge/Stam (or Parry/Stam when you have the right ratio, info in a sec) and for yellow sockets use Def/Stam. For blue or colourless sockets obviously just use straight Stam.

As for when you gem / enchant for Parry over Dodge:

When (character_sheet_dodge% - 10) / (character_sheet_parry% - 10) > 1.88 then you get more avoidance per point of Parry than of Dodge. Prior to this ratio, Dodge will be more avoidance per point.

Mert
10-16-2009, 02:34 AM
As i said before i did NOT have 538 def when it happened

His point was that it wouldn't have mattered if you were at 538 anyway as your shoulder enchant was keeping you crit immune down to 536. Ignore the previous poster who suggested you were critically hit - even if you had been at 538 at the time, you couldn't have been.

Mačl
10-16-2009, 02:38 AM
If you were crittable - half of the possibilities are quite enough :D
He wasn't so get over it.

It happened while you pulled. Did you walk backwards, strafe or run directly to the end of the cave? If you walked backwards then her movement is erratic. If you strafed then it could be that she somehow sneaked a couple of attacks into your back. If you turned your back to her and ran, well...what can I say?

It's not a bad idea to use a cooldown when positioning her. She has quite a few different abilities she could've used close to each other and during the pull the healers are handicapped by moving. What I'm saying is: don't expect top heals from healers while on the run. Being two shot is more likely what happened to you and that can quite easily happen.

Respect Onyixia! She could wipe a raid back in vanilla at will and will continue to do so until kingdom come. A loot pinata she ain't.

Durandro
10-16-2009, 02:58 AM
May have been a lag spike and you got hit twice before you even noticed.

Sometimes these things just happen, I'm afraid. Though you should really have been able to take three hits without healing, so if that was the case it was one hell of a lag spike.

Otherwise I don't know. May have just been a freak occurance.

Kuraf
10-16-2009, 03:17 AM
When I take a big burst of damage, I always check the "what happened to me" in the combat log section... it provides loads of useful information for these situations...

If you say it was only 1 hit and you were uncrittable... i got no idea what could've been =\

orcstar
10-16-2009, 03:26 AM
Your armor is low, that's why you take higher damage from physical hits.

Daishan12
10-16-2009, 03:36 AM
Also don't forget that sneaky 0.000000000000000000000000001% chance you can be crit even over the "defence cap" (prefer defence minimum but thats just being picky :P)

Or something truely silly like you were in zerker stance taking 10% more dmg.

Things happen - if you know theres a more dodgy part of the fight - be prepared for it! Indestructible pot on pull (i wouldn't in ony 10 or 25 but might have done when my gar was weaker). Don't be afraid to use your CDs!

As a side note - glyph of rapid charge - PVP glyph really if even that! Get last stand if you want to eat the burst dmg with max hp. Or one of the other interesting warrior glyphs out there (sunder/devestate/SW/revenge are all pretty nice - I even used the tuant one the other day!) Also spec wise - 3 points in armed to the teeth will do more for your tps than the 3 points in cruelty but warriros don't really have single target issues :P

Glittersmith
10-16-2009, 03:39 AM
Also don't forget that sneaky 0.000000000000000000000000001% chance you can be crit even over the "defence cap" (prefer defence minimum but thats just being picky :P)

A raid boss will never critt you if you have the minimum defence rating needed ever.

Nicki
10-16-2009, 03:47 AM
Also don't forget that sneaky 0.000000000000000000000000001% chance you can be crit even over the "defence cap" (prefer defence minimum but thats just being picky :P)


The above information has no theoritical or even practical finding and is completely incorrect not being picky just spreading missinformation. The only crits that happen when crit immune in PvE are:

1. Not having -5.6% chance to be crit (ie 540 def or 536 and 15 resilience~ as long as the combo reduces chance to be crit by -5.6% for raid bosses it's fine, obviously for 72 mobs you only need 5.4% or 535 defense.)
2. Pressing sit (if you haven't yet unbound x do so now)
3. The mob's do a defense debuff (e.g. Thorim's unbalancing strike)
4. A feral druid or fury warrior gets mind controlled thus buffing the mobs (or in rare cases a ret paladin gets mind controlled and judges you).
5. A few trash mobs have been known to have higher critical chance rates paticularly rogue types.

No one has proven theres a random chance to be crit and after the testing satrina has done on the combat table I find it highly unlikely that such a chance even exists beyond myth.

Dalemaunder
10-16-2009, 06:22 AM
[QUOTE=Mačl;303412] It happened while you pulled. Did you walk backwards, strafe or run directly to the end of the cave? If you walked backwards then her movement is erratic. If you strafed then it could be that she somehow sneaked a couple of attacks into your back. If you turned your back to her and ran, well...what can I say? QUOTE]

Actualy, comming to think of it the pull did go a bit weird because my charge didnt go off, so that is the most logical explination i can think of.

MellvarTank
10-16-2009, 08:44 AM
One scenario: Onyxia has a huge hit box I've noticed, and you have to charge right away before you get into it, or no charge for you. It is deceivingly large, and as soon as she aggro's, 2 steps forward and you can't charge.

Other scenario: The charge timed out on account of a lag spike and she got a couple of hits off without you knowing.

morelore
10-16-2009, 08:47 AM
Last night our very well geared warrior got spiked for about 80% of his health. Not sure exactly what hit him, I think it was a wing buffet/cleave combo. You've got about 6k less unbuffed health than our MT does and the same hit would have killed you outright.

Theotherone
10-16-2009, 09:19 AM
Sounds like your healer was probably spacing out.

Bashal
10-16-2009, 09:24 AM
So it's a healer/lag/probably got more than 1 hit on you even though it didn't look like it issue.

Mystery solved. ;)

Xianth
10-16-2009, 09:50 AM
the most logical expanation without having a log is probably boss hit + parry hasted hit + cleave combo for like 15k each. afaik her cleave isn't on her swing timer. You have pretty low expertise (17) so this makes it even more likely to happen than usual.

install recount and check the death log in future :) incredibly handy to see what killed you and/or who didnt heal you

Bung
10-16-2009, 12:47 PM
If you were fully raid buffed I would think that you probably were not "one shotted". Mabey you were two shotted and your healers were sleeping. You could enchant your shield and chest for DEF and gem more +30 stam (forget the bonuses). If you start with 36k unbuffed then fully buffed you will be 45k which will be less chance on getn one shotted.