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Keloki
10-15-2009, 12:39 PM
So my main is a holy priest. However, recently I leveled a pally up to 80 to act as a tank when we needed one. I've been working hard on gear and trying out various rotations to see which causes the most threat but it seems that no matter what I do, my dps can pull off of me.

The dps I've been running with are all uld 25 geared and easily 4.5k at the lowest.

So is the reason for the aggro battle the fact that their too awesome for me or is this just a gear and experience problem? Any hints would be more than appreciated.

Don't mind the lack of gems. Late night, didn't get to em yet.

WoW Heroes - World of Warcraft PvE character info & ratings (http://wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&server=Cairne&name=Keloki)

Zothor
10-15-2009, 02:37 PM
I think it's both, along with a factor you're just going to have to accept - no matter how good a tank you are, if your DPS MASSIVELY outgears you (and they do, you're still in a ton of blues), they're going to be able to pull off you.

Basically, patient and carefully Omen watching DPS can stay behind any tank. Most DPS are not that patient or careful, which is why cranking threat is important.

Your spec is distinctly suboptimal for threat, and you've taken a lot of talents that are relatively useless to tanking. There are only 53 points in the Prot tree which are considered "Must have", which is why by far the most common maintanking spec is 0/53/18, as it produces maximum threat almost everywhere besides Ulduar. Let's look at your mostly wasted points one by one:

Divinity: Often debated, but the general consensus is this is junk. The primary issue is that the extra healing you receive is usually overhealing. Tanks rarely die from not getting ENOUGh healing - they die from not getting healed -at all-. It's the gaps in heals that kill you, not the size of them (which is why elite healers are gearing for haste - faster heals makes for smoother output). Divinity is a waste of 5 perfectly good points.

Stoicism: Nothing in PVE is going to dispell your buffs, and the stun reduction is of hugely limited value given that these 3 points translate directly into a HUGE amount of threat you can get elsewhere. The top 3 points in the Ret tree are arguably the most important threatwise; you can't afford these on a stun reduction, especially since it doesn't work on all boss stuns.

Reckoning: Admittedly not the total crap it used to be thanks to the changes to Seal of Vengeance, but still point for point the -worst- threat talent in any tree. Some paladins take 3/5, because you need to spend 3 points below this tier just to move up. Since you've chose to skip Imp HoJ, Divine Sac, and Divine Guardian (which are the other options most people consider), I suspect you would choose to keep this at 3/5, but take two of your points back.

Spiritual Attunement: 1/2 is all you need to keep your mana up, and that point is just too important elsewhere. Bless Sanctuary on yourself at all times, and keep divine plea up at all times, and your regen should be fine. You do not need 2/2

Moving on, things you don't have that you need:

TOUCHED BY THE LIGHT: Point for point, the second best threat talent behind 1handed spec. You need 3/3 of this. It's not optional. It's most of the reason why your threat is lagging.

Your spare points now go up the ret tree (Situationally, you could opt to go 5/5 Seals of the Pure if you're tanking mostly Ulduar, but for Naxx, TOC, and most Heroics, up the ret tree is preferable).

As a heads up, you only need 1/2 points in Imp judgement. Many people, myself included, take the second because a point in imp might or a point in benediction is generally a waste of time, and it's nice to have jdugements up sooner for picking up adds and whatnot. But you only NEED one for boss tanking. Feel free to keep the second.

Your first two points in the ret tree that you've freed up past this go in VINDICATION. Some tanks are still not carrying this; I generally consider them selfish, as they are putting the onus on either their healers or their warriors to carry them. Vindication is equal to a fully talented Demo Shout, and is a HUGE reduction in incoming boss damage. This is going to make you massively more durable. Take it.

After that, your choices are between 3/5 Conviction and 1V/2 Pursuit of Justice. This is entirely a flavor choice - a lot of people like the PoJ, but since your threa tis hurting I personally reccomend 3/5V - you need all you can get.

Finally, you have 3 points left, and they're vitally important - 3/3 Crusade. These three points increase your damage on all Demons, Undead, Humanoids, and Elementals (Commonly referred to in threat terms as DUH mobs, because ELementals weren't always on this talent) by 6%. Consider that that is applied before Righteous Fury threat scaling is put in and this is a huge, huge amount of threat. You need this.

Enchant your weapon. Mongoose is nicely balanced, Accuracy is max threat, and if you're really broke you can go with a Titanium weapon chain. As long as you're still having threat problems, stick with one of those 3 as they're the gamut of ideal threat enchants.

GLYPHS: You have one of the required glyphs, glyph of divine plea. The other is Glyph of Seal of Vengeance. It's a stupidly high amount of free threat/expertise/additional survivability of parryhasting from a glyph spot. You can't run without this. Of note, if the reason you aren't using this glyph is because you have been using a different seal to tank, stop right now and start using Seal of Vengeance (Which, since you're Horde, is Seal of Corruption. Stupid multiple names :-\ ). it's by far the highest overall sustained threat glyph. You will be removing Glyph of Consecration, which I just noticed you have, which means... drumroll please, as this is the paladin tank "lightbulb moment," ... you are not familiar with the 969 rotation, which is THE paladin tanking max threat rotation, which is broken and impossible if you have glyph of con. Glyph of con significantly hurts your threat. Take it out. Look up the 969 rotation. Respec, reglyph. Your threat is about to go way, way up.

Keloki
10-15-2009, 03:36 PM
Wow.. that's a lot. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out. I've been a healer for so long that I know nothing about any other job. I took your advice, changed things around. Our guild's main and off tanks are both bears so I couldn't really go for them about any class specific questions I had. Your effort will not be wasted!

Zothor
10-16-2009, 06:54 AM
Wow.. that's a lot. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me out. I've been a healer for so long that I know nothing about any other job. I took your advice, changed things around. Our guild's main and off tanks are both bears so I couldn't really go for them about any class specific questions I had. Your effort will not be wasted!

I try and take the time to answer paladin tanking questions in this forum because the two tanks I had to learn most of my tanking from are A) a warrior, who just doesn't keep up to date on mechanics changes but is such a gifted player that nobody ever notices, and B) a paladin tank who literally couldn't be assed to care what anyone though. When I respecced to tank because we lost a tank in our guild... I think I called out once that I was shieldwalling in a fight, and he literally didn't know that we'd gotten shieldwall in 3.0 :p

Class specific questions can be a pain in the ass, especially in a role that's been dominated by warrior based (warrior and bear) mechanics forever.

As far as Paladin specific stuff goes, as much as I love Tankspot and highly reccomend it, particularly for tanking strategy and class comparison discussion, the Maintankadin forums (Maintankadin - Paladin Tanking Guides and Tankadin Forum (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com)) are where most people go for the crazy paladin specific detail. While there are tons of valuable contributors, a lot of what you're going to want to look at are the stickied guides, and basically anything written depth by Theck (who I think i'm going to start calling the Greek God of Theorycraft). He's done ridiculously in depth simulation work studying the details of effective paladin tanking and has really given a stupendous amount of knowledge to the community.

I figure as much as I've learned from him and the rest of the guys over there, it doesn't take that much time to pass some of it on.

EDIT:

As an update, took a glance at your revised armory. You're running almost the exact same spec I am now, although I have 3/3 Heart of the Crusader, and you're running 3/5 Benediction. Keep in mind that Heart of the Crusader is a RAIDWIDE 3% additional crit chance on whatever you're targetting. While Ret paladins, Combat rogues, and Elemental shamans also all put this debuff up, it's pretty valuable. Benediction isn't entirely worthless, and while you're learning to manage your mana and keep Divine Plea up I suppose it's harmless to keep 3/5, but eventually you should be able to run without w/ Sanctuary and Divine Plea.

As far as gemming, something I hadn't touched on because you mentioned that your gem slots were empty due to time: There are really only four stats you should be gemming at the moment. Stamina, obviously, Defense, obviously until you're comfortably over the minimum, Agility (which is really superior to dodge in almost every way for a Paladin - it provides nearly every bit as much incoming damage reduction through avoidance and armor, while adding some crit for extra threat), and Hit rating (only to match a worthwhile yellow socket bonus, and only once you're over the defense minimum and don't need to gem for it anymore).

Stamina should be self explanatory. While it may be tempting to gem for Strength for threat, right now your survivability moving into more difficult content is likely a bigger issue than your threat - I suspect we fixed a lot of the threat issues with the respec, reglyph, and with a clean 969 rotation. Agility has been mathed and tested to death (thanks again Theck!) and has pretty conclusively been shown to be the preferable red socket for paladins - we get quite a bit of dodge out of it, plus armor and threat. For most people the armor, which contributes to your Effective Health, is the deciding factor. Hit rating is a very good threat stat if you need to match a yellow socket. I personally don't bother unless the socket bonus is +9 stam or better, but then again I significantly outgear you and can afford to be pickier. Your mileage may vary.