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Caeala
10-10-2009, 08:45 PM
Hi,
I have found im having threat issues recently with my tanking, its a bit of a burst threat issue that im having in my frost spec, and to improve me fastest, what pieces do you think i should work on getting as a sort of next step?Im Open to changing anything to improve my threat, since my gears ok i think.
Caeala

My Armory The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Burning+Blade&n=Caeala)

jaydee
10-10-2009, 09:36 PM
Here are some things that you might want to look at:

1. Ask your DPS to hold out for a few seconds during a pull, to allow you to build up threat
2. Check your rotation and see if you're using the best single/multiple target opener/rotation for your spec
3. Try to get more expertise to avoid parries (unlucky parry streaks really slows down your threat)
4. Macro in rune strike into your blood strike, plague strike and obliterate action buttons
5. Macro in death chill into your obliterate, howling blast and frost strike
6. Watch out and make sure you use procs of Rime and Annihilation whenever they're up
7. Move those 3 talent points from Morbidity to Epidemic, Virulence or max out Bladed Armor.

keebz
10-10-2009, 11:38 PM
Your spec (and gear) is good for the most part, but the subtle differences in the following spec will make all the difference (courtesy of EJ, point between Hungering Cold and Deathchill switched):

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?deathknight#eSQ9ScQlOGAHPAy,wMae3-,10505

You do not need 3 points in Morbidity as you are Frost and you have probably the best AoE threat ability (there is a reason it is the 51-point Frost talent, you know): Howling Blast. On top of that, you have the Glyph of HB which is great for snap aggro. For the other glyph slots, the spec I linked has glyphs associated with it (on the right side), so use those as they tie in directly with that spec. The minor Glyph of Raise Dead is a suitable replacement for Blood Tap and you can keep it as it will allow you to raise a ghoul and use Death Pact (especially with the changes outlined below which will help RP generation) as a last resort in an emergency.

You will notice Scent of Blood maxed out at 3/3 with the new spec. Why? Frost is unlike Blood and Unholy in that it's runic power dump (Frost Strike) is very powerful, and used far more often than Death Coil (runic power dump for Unholy/Blood). For this reason, Scent of Blood is great for Frost tanking as you will have the runic power necessary to use Frost Strike, and more importantly, Rune Strike.

Next, you hear about Rune Strike all the time and how you should macro it into all of your abilities. Well that is because at a cost of 10 RP, Rune Strike is extremely potent in threat production. You should make a macro for each of the strikes on your action bar(s):
Example:
#showtooltip Obliterate
/cast Obliterate
/cast Rune Strike

Now, take that macro and replace the current, default one you have on your bar for that ability. You might doubt doing this for ranged attacks such as Icy Touch, Howling Blast, etc. but do it anyway (Death Coil is unnecessary and a waste of a slot on your action bar; it is unnecessary). Your first attack will probably be from range, but then you will be up close with the mob and you will be using Icy Touch (refresh diseases) or Howling Blast (good aggro tool + disease). It is important that I say you will NOT be using Icy Touch at all unless you don't want to aggro everything around an enemy (in which case it would seem they are already too close, so Howling Blast is better), but it's on your bar next to Plague Strike in case. Do remember that by putting "/cast Rune Strike" at the end of your macro, you are simply activating Rune Strike and it will be used in place of your next auto melee swing if there is RP available.

Deathchill is there for snap aggro - a Killing Machine proc on demand. It is on a long cooldown so use it only in emergencies, and this mostly goes for AoE problems. You also have Blood of the North which will help you when you need that extra rune(s) for Obliterate or HB. Also, do not let any Killing Machine and Rime procs die away. It is great for aggro, and a HB crit without rune cost is awesome.

You have the Glyph of Howling Blast, so your rotations would look roughly something like this:

Single: HB - (optional PS for extra threat [bosses]) - BS - BS - OB
with Frost Strikes when possible to dump RP.

AoE: HB - BB - BB - Obliterate and repeat with RP dumps as necessary
You can throw a DND after the first HB if it is a very large group and you have a few doubts.

Obliterate is a very powerful move, and it uses the same runes as Howling Blast. While HB is on its 8-sec cooldown, you can use Obliterate as your major strike in addition to Frost Strikes (and Rune Strike should be macro'd in).

Above all else, keep in mind that you are a DK and you have a complex cooldown system consisting of normal cooldowns as well as runes. You have to adapt to the situation, and that will come naturally. Scent of Blood will really help as that will give you more Frost Strikes, and they are essential to Frost threat. Rune Strikes should also not be a problem. This will also ensure most of the time that you have enough RP available for defensive cooldowns (Icebound Fortitude [IBF], AMS).

Your gear is perfectly fine. There is something you are doing wrong with your rotation as your natural threat output at that gear level should be alright. Dummies are fine but they are really only good for practicing your rotation, and like I said, your rotation is going to mess up and you'll have to change. Basically, you just need to do what you must and try to get back into the flow of the rotation described above (and in other posts). Your best bet is to run heroic instances so you can get practice and confidence, and soon you'll be clearing an entire instance in one pull! :D (I'm joking ha)

Kurtosis
10-11-2009, 02:04 AM
What keebz said, with one addition. When you macro Rune Strike into your other strikes, always prepend it with !. Like this:

#showtooltip [mod:ctrl] some ability;[mod:alt] some ability;[mod:shift] some ability;[nomod] Obliterate
/use !Rune Strike
/use [mod:ctrl] some ability;[mod:alt] some ability;[mod:shift] some ability;[nomod] Obliterate
The way RS works is it procs, then you hit the ability button to activate it (or your macro), then it queues up to fire on your next autoattack. However, if you hit the RS button (or macro) again b/f it fires on the next autoattack, it will dequeue and not fire. You avoid that by prepending ! in front of it, which prevents it from dequeuing if currently queued.

Hades
10-11-2009, 02:26 AM
Or if you're like me, and think those fancy keybind things are written in some foreign language, put rune strike in a comfortable place and activate it manually. While we wait for the hate to flow for even suggesting that, I'd also like to offer the possibility of using Deathchill right off the bat. If you get an emergency add, you're kinda limited in methods to rein it in since the "massive snap aggro on demand" ability is blown, but there's a reason that Deathgrip and Dark Command are on different cds. ;)

Caeala
10-11-2009, 07:15 AM
Thank You all for the help/advice, i only have 1 question for keebz, why glyph into blood tap when you didnt even take it? Thank you all for your help

keebz
10-11-2009, 12:01 PM
Every DK gets Blood Tap - it's the move that converts one Blood rune into a Death rune. Glyph of Blood tap pretty much just saves you that ~500 or so health, which is great but personally, I find it better to have Raise Dead. You will be using Blood Tap way more than Raise Dead of course but it really is a lifesaver sometimes. When I was Frost, I took Glyph of Blood Tap. When I switched to Blood, I took Raise Dead as I didn't really need to worry about that 500 health lost from Blood Tap due to my self-healing. It is a bit tough to use Raise Dead + Death Pact when you are already so low as you're trying to pop other cooldowns, especially as Frost. If you are comfortable with Glyph of Blood Tap, take it. There's nothing wrong with it and it's actually what I did when I had my Frost spec. Raise Dead + Death Pact is more of a heroic 5 man or 10 man thing where your healer went AFK or is healing someone else (the chances of that happening are fairly low). It's a last-minute resort for a ~14k or so self-heal (if you're ~35k buffed) to give yourself some breathing time before the heals start coming in again.

The reason you macro Rune Strike into your abilities is specifically for snap aggro, and it's great in the beginning if you have Glyph of Rune Strike. 1 Rune Strike crit + IT/PS or HB gives you a fine lead on initial threat.

Everyone has their own use for Deathchill. Personally, I like to save it for, as Hades said, an emergency add comes in. Rather than just 1 add though, I like to save it for when I am going to pull an entire room on purpose, or if there is no way to avoid that next group. I go: Deathchill + HB + DnD and then do what I usually do. If I haven't used it already on trash (remember, you want to try to avoid using it unless absolutely necessary), and we're at a boss, then sometimes I'll pop it and use HB.

That is a very good idea Kurtosis. I had no idea but it makes sense now that you think about it (if you click your auto-attack button, if you have it on your bar, when it's already blinking, then it will stop). Thanks for the heads up!

Caeala
10-12-2009, 07:59 AM
On one little subnote, where should i focus my raiding time, since im torn from wanting to do ulduar, but also wanting to do toc, what do you recomend me doing, since TOC is populated by dummies who dont know their stuff i find on my server(geting hit on icehowl charges etc.)

keebz
10-12-2009, 12:08 PM
I say do both if you want to. Ulduar is a larger raid of course, and needs more time devoted to it. ToC is nice too, and although you say most people don't know the fight, the best way to learn is by failing. Face it, you don't learn when you down a boss so easily, and you end up wondering if you should've at least tried the hard mode. I say, if you have a very well-geared group for Ulduar, go for some of the easier hard modes (speed kills like Ignis and Hodir, or XT hard but it requires a tiny bit of coordination, Auriaya [don't kill any adds, just burn her down - healing intensive], etc.). You should definitely attempt ToC. It is a great experience. Onyxia is also another one you should do, if not for the loot, then for the Emblems of Triumph and it is also a great experience. It will teach you to either manage your cooldowns on Onyxia if your healers aren't that great, or it will test what you know with the whelps + big add.

Fledern
10-12-2009, 11:32 PM
Ulduar10 hardmodes taught our raidgroup tons more than ToC ever did. Do ToC for gear, Ulduar hardmodes for getting your raiding know-how up. Since Ulduar gear is a bit so-so at this stage, you can use the extend raid lockout feature to spread your ulduar time.

Oh and jadee:

1. Ask your DPS to hold out for a few seconds during a pull, to allow you to build up threat

I have NEVER seen the above advice work :P. Even back in the old times of "wait for 5 sunders". The more i say "wait" the more people take it to mean start dpsing without me even getting in melee range first :P These days i use charge on my warrior and/or tuskarrs boot enchant so i get those extra seconds before the dps can catch up. Thankfully rogues havent figured out using sprint yet :P

Wilhem
10-13-2009, 10:45 AM
I agree with what Fledern said... If your DPS has to wait that means your threat is low and you need to get some upgrades or fix your rotation... Unless they're AoEing before you get to a group pull that is. Then you let them die and learn. =D

Kurtosis
10-18-2009, 10:55 PM
Every DK gets Blood Tap - it's the move that converts one Blood rune into a Death rune. Glyph of Blood tap pretty much just saves you that ~500 or so health, which is great but personally, I find it better to have Raise Dead. You will be using Blood Tap way more than Raise Dead of course but it really is a lifesaver sometimes. When I was Frost, I took Glyph of Blood Tap. When I switched to Blood, I took Raise Dead as I didn't really need to worry about that 500 health lost from Blood Tap due to my self-healing. It is a bit tough to use Raise Dead + Death Pact when you are already so low as you're trying to pop other cooldowns, especially as Frost. If you are comfortable with Glyph of Blood Tap, take it. There's nothing wrong with it and it's actually what I did when I had my Frost spec. Raise Dead + Death Pact is more of a heroic 5 man or 10 man thing where your healer went AFK or is healing someone else (the chances of that happening are fairly low). It's a last-minute resort for a ~14k or so self-heal (if you're ~35k buffed) to give yourself some breathing time before the heals start coming in again.
I don't see why people don't just keep 40 corpse dust (2 stacks) in their bag at all times, and remove the need for Glyph of Raise Dead. It only costs 5s per dust at Exalted w/ Ebon Blade. Yeah you have to check your bags periodically to make sure you're not running low on corpse dust, but after a week or so you get into the habit of that.

If you can accomplish the same thing that way as an entire glyph, why not just do it and instead get a glyph for which there is no alternative method of getting its ability?

keebz
10-19-2009, 01:36 PM
I don't see why people don't just keep 40 corpse dust (2 stacks) in their bag at all times, and remove the need for Glyph of Raise Dead. It only costs 5s per dust at Exalted w/ Ebon Blade. Yeah you have to check your bags periodically to make sure you're not running low on corpse dust, but after a week or so you get into the habit of that.

If you can accomplish the same thing that way as an entire glyph, why not just do it and instead get a glyph for which there is no alternative method of getting its ability?

Wow, I truly had no idea you could buy Corpse Dust... I figured the only way to get Corpse Dust was from Corpses hahaha...

This is very helpful as the Glyph of Raise Dead is nice for when you get low, but you don't use it that often. It's easy to keep 1-2 stacks on you (you shouldn't be needing that much though).

I have also been thinking about replacing Glyph of Raise Dead with Glyph of Blood Tap come Patch 3.3, due to 4PCT10 giving us Blood Tap as a new defensive cooldown. This really helps, thank you.

Kurtosis
10-19-2009, 03:59 PM
Yeah, all reagent vendors sell Corpse Dust, along with one of the vendors in Ebon Hold (Runeforge level, on the left). When Wrath first came out it was something crazy, like 50s per dust, 10g/stack. People used the Glyph of Raise Dead a lot then. But now it's so cheap, not much point anymore.

When tanking I use Blood Tap alot, have it macro'd to Vampiric Blood to guarantee that cd will always cast when I need it, sometimes use it for Rune Tap too in a pinch. So the glyph is well worth it.

keebz
10-19-2009, 04:35 PM
Yeah, the cost isn't really a factor, especially as a tank since we do use it, but not as often as Blood Tap (one would hope you wouldn't need to use it all the time Raise Dead is up). There isn't another glyph comparable to Blood Tap, either. Makes me wish Glyph of Anti-Magic Shell was a minor glyph, ha. Either way, Glyph of Blood Tap is the way to go come Patch 3.3, or at least when you pick up 4PCT10. Nice catch, Kurtosis.