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Afkidontheal
10-08-2009, 08:49 PM
Hey guys, could use some advice from some experienced Prot paladins. Myself i have played a pally since almost release and been prot since TBC. A lot has changed, and here are my concerns and questions.

1. I know that tanking is a preferance, be it a sink tank, mitigation tank, or an avoidance tank, i prefer the later. When i use rawr, every time i'm there and i choose the items i hold, and i tell it to optimize my gear to work towards avoidance, it keeps pushing stam gems or stam/defense gems. My question is as follows, i really still am a firm believer that you have less healing done and survive longer, not to mention less stress on healers mana pool to go for avoidance with the understanding you have to have the health to take the big hits.

2. I just transfered to Frostwolf, but i feel as if i'm riddled with players that don't think hit cap, exp cap, etc. are important. I'm a frequent surfer of tankspot and elitestjerks, which both say otherwise. My question is, at this stage in the game, am i looking too much into things? It feels as if, ToC is by far, not nearly as challenging as Ulda was, dunno about HM, haven't had the opportunity to test those in ToC yet.

3. Like the above post, again on this server, they say there is nothing to tanking as a prot paladin, keep down consecrate, and swing away. My humble opinion is they are truely mislead in what it takes to maintain threat, maintain the avoidance, know when to hit the "oh crap" buttons, utilize trinkets not only so you can erase some of the dmg but also so you can recycle them and relieve your healers from the strain on the mana pools. My firm belief as a tank are two things. 1. Our job is to understand the fights and maintain threat bring solid MT/OT execution to them. 2. Our job is to mitigate or avoid as much dmg as possible.

My conclusion, i'm still a firm believer that Avoidance for the harder instances (maybe were talking hardmodes 10 man, 25 man) is still more viable than a lot of stamina or a massive amount of block. I feel i'm well versed in tanking and my paladin, setting up my 9,6,9 rotation, utilizing (even if its not improved) sacred shield, being hit caped, exp caped, a bit over on the defense to utilize that AD (although i don't believe in gearing single handly for a 2 min. CD). I try to keep the parry down, so that when bladewarding procs its more effective, i'm not a huge fan of shield block. I understand SB is big threat factor on our table now, however honestly i don't feel threat is an issue in raids plus i will mouseover the first dps that is near me that has no abilities to dump threat and nail them hand of salv. Hence players such as DKs and warriors.

Gear choices, well i just came back after taking some time off when ToC was implemented, and now im in full swing of gaining the gear i need. I believe things like my chest (looking at whats available in 10/25 man and crafted) is the best option for me, allowing me to achieve socket bonuses but still getting that avoidance i so seek. I do understand that some of my gear is out of date and as time goes on i will push to replace it. I love the tier 9/9.5 4 set bonus but i won't be getting it, due to my preferance on avoidance and disliking SBV/SBR.

I'm the type of player that will spend thousands of gold to swap gems/enchants around to gain even 1 point out of my gear, if i feel its something that will help me tank better.

Here is my link, if someone here knows if i'm still heading in the right direction to be an avoidance tank. Gear is limited, as i just started back up into a guild that is rather casual in their idea's of what raiding is. Its a start, i will go from there.

Thanks for your time and patience

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Frostwolf&n=Afkidontheal)

Dtain
10-08-2009, 09:44 PM
I think you will see alot of people say this here, the right gear for the right situation.

Avoidance is nice yes, but almost every fight in ToC, save anub EH is far superior.
Beasts- Gormok - impale, dot from impale, and stomp unavoidable, also in hard modes a combination of these can easily take out a tank later in the fight unless cooldowns are in place. worms, alot of magic damage avoidance does nothing here. Icehowl, the knockback stun leaves you not avoiding the majority of the fight.

Jaraxxus honestly he doesn't do much damage the only time you are ever in danger is if his buff stack gets too high and he gets a cast off, in which case more hp is greater then avoidance

faction champs doesn't really apply

twin valks i tend to wear my threat / damage set for this fight to help with breaking down sheilds quicker almost any armor set will work for this fight they do not have alot of tank damage.

anub add tanking BV set is far better, tanking anub himself avoidance ends up being better imo.

As far as hit / expertise caping is concerned, if it is a tank swaping fight, and you need the hit put some hit gear on, or get the taunt glyph, if it is a threat sensitive fight toss on your threat / hit set again use the right tools for the job.

In summary don't limit your self to "avoidance" tank, be a tank be ready and well suited to all situations, keep old gear and lots of trinkets / rings on you to swap out depending on what you are fighting.

Afkidontheal
10-09-2009, 12:26 AM
Aye mate, i have more than 1 set, i have mitigation, sink tank, block set, etc. Its just this is my prime set. My question is, because content has become so easy, is the paladin prot community getting saturated with players that are poor quality or, am i missing something?!

Fetzie
10-09-2009, 03:49 AM
I would say that holds a certain amount of truth, paladin tanking has never been in a more user-friendly state than right now.

As for gearing, EH trumps everything in 99% of cases (unless you are running naxx, then you can equip your block gear and laugh when you see loatheb hitting you for 20 damage). Because blizzard has given such absurd amounts of avoidance on gear before enchants and gems, tanks are sitting at 50-60% avoidance while being able to gem stamina into every slot. At the moment, being able to survive the next hit is more important than possibly avoiding it completely, and I personally hold this rule for watertight until a boss/enemy starts dealing less than 30% of my health with a hit. as is is, we have gormok heroic hitting for 25k, his impale hitting for 35k, the dot ticking for 20-30k. two out of three couldnt care less about your avoidance. We have Icehowl hitting for 20k while you are stunned, and anub'arak stunning you for 3 seconds, while he hits you twice.

Mitigation and health pools are king and queen right now, and blizzard are making zero moves to depose them. Avoidance is like an advisor to the royal couple, and block the court jester. All four have their place, but two outweigh the others in power and influence.

If you want to go down the path of the avoidance tank then stack defense in yellow sockets and agility in red ones. blue sockets are up to you, but I would use these to keep up with your stamina. Defense and agility enchants on the gear, mongoose on the weapon (and try to get the new Quel'Serrar (25 man version is, of course, better). Defense grants overall higher avoidance and agility adds to dodge, armor and crit.

As for threat stats; hit and expertise are useful. however, unless you need snap aggro, or need that taunt to 100% land, you can get away with way less than 264 hit rating or 26 expertise. I have 120 hit rating and 24 expertise and still out tps the dds by miles, omen usually says I have 7-8k tps. Strength is our TPS stat number one, even beyind 2800 BV (when SotR stops getting the full benefit from strength).

Hopefully this helps.

Afkidontheal
10-09-2009, 09:00 AM
Thank you py, i'll look into a few things. Such as a bit more defense stam in the yellow gems, perhaps something like alot of 10 defense 15 stam gems and dropping some of the other stuff.
Hit rating last i checked however, is still ranked as our number one tps stat. Gota hit stuff to build that tps. Expertise is not only a threat stat but is a double edged sword and also a survival stat. Beyond that, what your saying makes some sense, i just feel like tanking as a paladin has been dilluted the good players mixed with the bad. Gear for the majority means nothing, i see folks stack stam, and make defense cap and ignore all else. Guess this is more to blame on blizz than anyone else.
I guess my best route is to build a stam set and avoidance set. Appriciate your folks time.

Insahnity
10-09-2009, 09:48 AM
If you are doing regular instance or overgear a place, then paladin tanking is a joke. But the same can also be said to a lesser degree of other tanks.

If your DPS is well geared, you are doing challenging new content, etc., then paladin tanking is not much different than other tanks, you just have a different toolbox to work with.

All things being equal, EH beats anything else, however, failing to have some avoidance will negate the value of your EH, as you take massive spike damage that cannot be prevented fast enough or you suck your healers dry.

I would continue to keep an eye on avoidance, but if rawr push a stamina enchant or gem, it's for a good reason.

Fetzie
10-09-2009, 09:56 AM
Actually according to TheckHd's analysis work in this thread (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?p=496509&rb_v=viewtopic#p496509) Strength is our best TPS stat until you reach 2900 block value, at which point hit becomes the best stat until 8%, after then strength overtakes it again.

maintankadin.failsafedesign.com is a veritable bible for tank paladins.

Afkidontheal
10-09-2009, 02:48 PM
Fair enough pryea, i know what your meaning. I'm sure i read since last patch, with the spread sheets, that hit rating superceeded str. This was off elitest jerks, however, both, i am aware are important to us. I know that str = our TPS via spell power, and absorbs some dmg on block, not to mention harder hits in general. I know that with hit, if you can't hit it, ya cant tank it, simple as that and affects our taunt. These are fairly basic things, things in which with a little effort, yeah i can figure out and compare. We all have trusted sites and bibles we go by, i understand this. I guess, what im getting at is, tanking has become a joke. I see player A, B, C and D getting defense caped and stacking the shit outa stamina. Were talking 45k+, ignoring things such as hit rating, exp rating, agility, armor, 9,6,9 rotations, and just in general their specs are insanely retarded. Has our class, and the content of gear, become so easy to achieve, that on a whim with gear from TOC, anyone can just suit up and tank shit? Thats what im getting at, tanking has always required much more finess to master, and yet im seeing it (my apologies here) like a fat kid coming back from summer camp, seeing a twinke. They are all over the place, im running into tanks with Taunt in their rotation, making mobs immune. Dumping all points into protection tree, ignorieng parry 5%, vindication, etc.
What the hell happened to skill? Sure, i bet hardmodes are challenging, and require SOME solid execution, along with readyness of the raid. Im just dumbstruck atm, never ever ever have i posted on a site such as this, about my paladin, tanking, retribution, or holy since i have played at release. I always have done the research, spent hours reading and respecing, regemming, etc to meet the demands of the pve encounters. Im not wanting this to be a grip post but, where is the skill in tanking as a prot paladin nowadays?
Has tanking Truthfully been boiled down to, hey get tier 9 (TOC)+ gear, get defense cap and stack stam. No frets, you can do all HMs with that setup. Rotation? Just consecrate and lol on vent while stuff is tanked. My frustraitions i guess lie two fold. One from bliz, one from players who take what bliz says/does for granted. Anyhow, sorry but i had to type all that.

Back to my question, yes yes yes, i have more than 1 tank set, more than 1 ret set, i use foods, pots, potions, flasks, mods, etc. I'm just wondering, can avoidance still be viable to tank things, in ToC and HM ToCs, or is seriously just get defense cap and stack stamina?

Thanks man, sorry for the rant, i love my pally and it pisses me off to see players drag paladins through the mud like this. Same thing happened to retadins back in the day

Dtain
10-09-2009, 09:36 PM
Honestly a good tank is one the raid has faith in, has exceptional awareness, and knows how to deal with all situations. Gear, spec, geming / enchanting is all very secondary considering how easy it is to get gear / hold threat, but anyone that has had a good tank knows the differnce between someone who jumbled some tallents together and got the "welfare" gear and holds agro over dps compared to a tank that knows the fight and is aware.

There is that mystery element that real "tanks" have that set them apart from people trying to hold agro.

Afkidontheal
10-09-2009, 11:31 PM
my apologies for my earlier rant. I worry, that what happened to the ret paladin population pre-tbc to tbc, will happen to prot population. And the challenge of being a good tank, doesn't feel like its there at the moment. Not saying im awesome, but i can hold my own. In the end, i do prefer avoidance, so perhaps taking some of your guys advice and trying to do something like, stam defense when i can, might make the middle gap a tad better. Get the stam, walk in with avoidance, etc. Again i do appriciate all your time, each post and the advice, i just was pretty frustraited today and well, sorry about that. I will move forward testing stuff like i always do, thanks peeps and GL in the xpac!

Mert
10-10-2009, 05:46 AM
Hit rating last i checked however, is still ranked as our number one tps stat. Gota hit stuff to build that tps.

Strength is our greatest threat stat up to ~2900 Block Value, only after which Hit until the melee cap overtakes it.

Zothor
10-12-2009, 07:53 AM
The primary reason avoidance has hit the shitter since TBC isn't the avoidance levels on gear, or how hard the bosses are swinging. It's mana pools.

When blizzard spread Shadow Priest regen out into replenishment and other raidwide sources, they actually massively INCREASED regen across the board. Consquently, healers are going oom farrrrrrrr less often. Therefore reducing total incoming damage has taken a backseat to making damage more survivable. This is why the gospel of Effective Health.

The idea of EH stacking, which is primarily stamina and armor stacking, is to survive a worst case scenario. As I have posted more often than I can count, in current content the worst case scenarios are on Heroic versions of Northrend Beasts and Anub'arak. In those worst case scenarios the boss stuns the tank. This happens in all three phases of beasts and happens while tanking Anub. You cannot avoid any damage when you are stunned - consequently, gearing for avoidance becomes entirely irrelevant in the times when you will want it the most.

EH is king, at least until bliz gives us reason to believe otherwise.

kpxneophyte
10-12-2009, 07:10 PM
Has tanking Truthfully been boiled down to, hey get tier 9 (TOC)+ gear, get defense cap and stack stam. No frets, you can do all HMs with that setup. Rotation? Just consecrate and lol on vent while stuff is tanked.

Any idiot can tank. What sets the idiots apart from the tanks is your ability to help your raid out. As a paladin tank, you have way more tools in your abilities than just "tank". Use them to help your raid out and they'll be missing you when they have that idiot tanking not doing anything besides tanking.

Back to the topic, avoidance has been nerfed to due not only dimishing returns, but also the encounters blizzard has set up. As previously mentioned before, a lot of the encounters focus towards EH, due to stuns, magic damage, and DoTs. I'm not really sure if this answers your question, but you never really asked anything for your first point.

It's not to say that hit and expertise aren't important, it's just that as paladins, we should already be expertise capped (or pretty damn close to it) due to the glyph of seal of vengence. Hit, on the other hand, seems to be a rarity on the To(G)C 10/25 man items and almost every tanking item that drops out of there is loaded with expertise, something I'm not quite sure what blizzard was getting at. So if you see other tanks running around with little to no hit on their gear, it's because it's what they got and gemming/enchanting for hit is far less valued than gemming/enchanting for stam. It's true that if you can't hit it, you can't tank it, but if you're dead, you can't tank it either.

Just because blizzard boiled tanking down to "stack EH" doesn't mean your job is any easier. There will always be idiots in this game, it's just up to us to show the difference between the idiots and the tanks.

Mert
10-12-2009, 09:19 PM
The concept of "if you can't hit it you can't tank it" falls down at the point you realise that even with precicely zero Hit Rating you're still connecting 92% of your attacks which is more than sufficient to maintain aggro, especially with the 3/3 Crusade builds most Paladins are running with. That's the primary reason people don't gem for Hit - that it's simply not necessary to do so given our current capacity for high threat.

Fetzie
10-12-2009, 11:19 PM
Actually the gearset that I am aiming for has around 7% (around 190 rating) hit from ToC gear alone, this isnt actually too bad...only sourcing items from ToC10 hc and ToC25 normal (apart from the 245 onyxia T2 head and a balebrew charm in one of the trinket slots).

But yeah, I am running at 2.7-3.2k dps as a tank with about 100 hit rating right now, I have absolutely zero problems running away from the dps on the threat table, even at the beginning of the fight, when my hit-capped hunters and rogues give me misdirect and shoot me up to 12k tps for the first 10 seconds anyway, not that i need it...