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View Full Version : Can switching specs not fully take effect?



Squirrelnut
10-08-2009, 09:22 AM
Last night my guild was doing our normal 25m content farming and surprisingly had an excess of tanks for once. I hate leveling so I really only use this one character and as such have put some time into my off-spec DPS set so I was happy to switch and DPS for the night.

My concern is that my DPS seemed very low considering my current spec/gear/gems/rotation, I logged out in my DPS gear:
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ner%27zhul&n=Squirrelnut)

I rarely get the chance to DPS since I am the guild MT so I have limited comparison data however back in Ulduar I was easily pulling 5-6k DPS and have gotten various gear upgrades since then. At that time I was doing around 3.1-3.3k DPS on the boss target dummy.

Last night I was still only doing around 5-6k DPS in most fights despite having much improved gear and it seemed like something was 'missing'. I have buff addons that let me know I had all my normal buffs but my DPS just seemed much lower then it should be as though something hadn't taken effect. Boss target dummy DPS before the raid was showing 3.5-3.7k DPS, here is a WMO report of the night (Onyxia fight is messed up because I DCed so it shows it as 2 attempts when it was really all just 1 fight):
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay (http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/log/1059468) (average boss DPS I did about 5.4k)

After the raids were all finished I switched back to tank spec/gear, then switched back again to my DPS stuff and returned to the target dummy. It seemed like things were working correctly again, my un-buffed boss target dummy DPS was up to 4.1-4.3k and my rage generation seemed much improved despite identical gear/spec from before.

Is it possible for a spec/gear change to not have all stats fully go through? It really seemed like something was missing and then after a fresh spec/gear switch "it" started working correctly. Am I just crazy? lol

EDIT: Off topic, should I switch to fury for higher DPS potential? I could throw on Edge of Agony - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47884) and Worldcarver - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45165) from my bags. Landsoul spreadsheet seems to think Arms can still provide higher DPS potential (7140) with my current gear then Fury (7008) so I hesitate to do so.

Eravian
10-08-2009, 11:47 AM
Hmm... I've never had a problem with it (although I HAVE switched my gear and not my spec before), but it's possible it got a little glitchy. I did notice that you only have 16 Expertise, which is a minimal issue since 18 is the cap with Weapon Mastery, but if that's changed slightly it may make a little difference... probably wouldn't make the whole thing feel different, though.

As for whether to switch, I was Fury for a while (granted my gear was not the greatest for it), but I prefer Arms, simply because there is much less Rage management and more moves to do... Fury is largely Whirlwind, Insta-slam, Bloodthirst, white damage... can be very effective, but more gear dependant, and less actual GCD's to manage.

Squirrelnut
10-08-2009, 01:18 PM
I considered the expertise issue and have tried using Edge of Agony for comparison purposes (it puts me well over expertise cap) but I find the 2 expertise to be very minimal and not account for the 'something is definitely missing' feeling and low numbers.

It was really weird, even looking at my stats (hit, expertise, ap, crit, etc) they looked like normal but it felt similar to if my head meta was not working due to gem mistakes or not getting my set bonuses or something.

After switching between dual specs and gear after the raid was over it all felt like it went back to normal.

Muffin Man
10-08-2009, 01:49 PM
A while back there were bugs with dual spec only saving some of your talent points but not all. So when you swapped you'd be missing all sorts of talents. That should be pretty obvious when it happens though...

So assuming there are no bugs with dualspec, if you haven't tried dps-ing in a while there was a nerf to ArP. Not to mention that ToC fights are not nearly as static as Ulduar fights can be. Also, I find that always takes while for me to get back into the groove of how to play arms.

Oh ya... bad Squirel! No sunders on bosses would definitely effect your dps (see what I mean about taking a while to find my groove as dps?).

Squirrelnut
10-08-2009, 02:11 PM
I know about the ArP change, however it was basically negated for arms warriors with the change from 10% in arms stance to 16% wasn't it?

If it were nothing more then a patch change / sunders why would my Boss target dummy DPS go from 3.5k before the raid to 4.3k with the exact same spec & gear with no buffs after I reset my spec & gear after the raid? Not to mention very improved rage generation.

Seems like something was caught half way or something lawl.

Viridios
10-08-2009, 02:29 PM
I know about the ArP change, however it was basically negated for arms warriors with the change from 10% in arms stance to 16% wasn't it?

If it were nothing more then a patch change / sunders why would my Boss target dummy DPS go from 3.5k before the raid to 4.3k with the exact same spec & gear with no buffs after I reset my spec & gear after the raid? Not to mention very improved rage generation.

Seems like something was caught half way or something lawl.

The ArP probably isn't fully dealt with that way - it was nerfed 12%, so a 6% class-based increase will only eliminate half of it.

Don't forget, Dummy does not equal boss. Dummies are generally [except for buffs] ideal circumstances; very, very rarely will you have a boss that stands still and doesn't do anything that minimizes damage taken for a few seconds. And sometimes that's all that it needs.

Changing targets for adds, being feared, running away, losing buff time - all of these things can cause lower DPS.

You said you hadn't done it in a long time - were you in Naxx or doing certain useful Ulduar fights before? Patchwerk, Hodir, General, XT, Kologarn - all of those fights have a tendency towards inflated/ideal DPS. Really, the closest ToCr [not ToGCR] comes is probably Gormok - all of the other fights have a lot of lose DPS time.

Squirrelnut
10-08-2009, 02:36 PM
I was looking at Boss Target Dummy because it reduces possible variables. Test 1 compared with Test 2 on the same dummy = identical conditions and thus my concern with an 800dps change with the exact same gear/spec after simply resetting stuff.

I mainly refer to my experience with General in Ulduar 25 because at the time DK tank was OP for that fight and my guild sucks at 25m's so we usually weren't doing hardmode = solo DK tank and I got to DPS.

Considering the mechanics of General for a melee (no buffs of any kind really and swing speed slightly slower) it seems odd that my DPS on most normal ToC25 & VoA fights (Koralon for example) would be WORSE when I now have 4pc T9 and various ilvl 232, 245 gear upgrades compared to what I was using back then on General (2pc T7.5 / 2pc T8.5 and BoH weapon).

Muffin Man
10-08-2009, 02:42 PM
I'm not aware of any changes to Battle Stance. Do you mean having the tier 9 bonus?

Anyways, a dps jump on a dummy can happen just by being more familiar with your rotation or getting a lucky streak, or most likely both. In the dps forums it *feels like* warriors of all stripes hit a pretty severe cap when practicing on a dummy (from your casual 10 man raider to your hardmode 25 man raider). On the luck front, I've done dummies for 5 minutes at a time before where I actually got twice as many SD procs. Rage generation can be a subjective measurement... or due to more crits... or better rage management.

In any case it's impossible to rule out a raid/user error without some logs from Ulduar. One reason I brought up you and sunders. If you ever had a warrior tank in Ulduar then that would have been a significant dps gain that you no longer have, offsetting some of your gear upgrades.

Maybe I'm too skeptical and you did find a dual spec bug (Or like me one of many bugs in wardrobes where it only changes out some of your gear). All I can tell you is dual spec has been working for me since they fixed the full talent allocation bug, and based on experience I've had similar dps 'issues' just from rust (this week actually we tried single tanking beasts and I felt pretty embarrassed by my performance).

Squirrelnut
10-08-2009, 02:50 PM
I was initially worried because the problems all happened in a raid immediately after a re-spec in Org. I saw I only had 16 expertise so I needed to make sure I was using the 2 talent points for reduced dodge chance.

- Just prior to re-speccing on the boss dummy I did 4.1 to 4.3k dps unbuffed other then my own shout.
- I then re-specced (real re-spec not just a switch from dual spec), did the raid, and tested the dummy again getting 3.5-3.7k dps in the exact same conditions.
- I then reset my spec switching between dual spec tank/dps and gear sets and tested again: 4.2-4.3k

I compare with the Ulduar 25 fight on General because of the limited raid differences. We have always been low on warriors so I was the only warrior in the raid in both cases so there would be no sunder differences. There was never a concern of wiping in normal 25m General or normal 25m ToC so I was never sundering because it allowed me to evaluate dps stats a bit easier (yes i am aware that is stupid on progression fights and i would definitely sunder in that case to improve raid dps).

EDIT: 700-800dps on a boss target dummy with identical conditions seems like a fairly large swing when added to an entire raid 'feeling' different.

EDIT2: I always just look at 16% armor pen due to battle stance and T9 2pc bonus, counting that I tend to keep my passive armorpen @ ~50% since I am using Grim Toll at the moment and can basically gem almost all STR.