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Bonk
10-06-2009, 03:07 PM
Hello everyone and thanks in advance for the help.

I would like to know if I am set up right or are there some things that would improve my all around effectiveness as a tank.

My hp unbuffed is 28000+ I have very good mitigation. As you can see I have very few stam enchants as I went all for mitigation and have gemmed for threat.

The expertise gems have helped my threat incredibly. My expertise rating is 25. I had a hard time with threat early on but it is a non issue now. I went from about 10 expertise to 25 at one time by using several gems. I did not gradually build it up so I am not sure how much I could have stopped at.

I have successsfully tanked 10toc (normal) and never fall prematurely.

Armor 23963
defense 551
dodge 29.15
parry 17.59
block 18.85
hit 268

The reason I am looking for help is that some players think my HP is too low (even though 10ToC is no prob for me). It did get me to wonder though if I should replace some expertise gems for stam.

One thing I am sure of is the dodge trinks I have are many times better than the stam trinks such as the brewboss ones. When I used the 170+stam I was getting hit more and needed more heals, not so with the dodge trinks.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Winterhoof&n=Bonk)

Thaak
10-06-2009, 07:26 PM
The problem (typically)isn't getting killed by the normal attacks. Its dying to the unavoidable or the unavoidable+normal(people don't die to Gormok's melee, they die to 3 stacks of impale lining up with a melee hit). The other thing you have to remember is when you get stunned/frozen/etc. your avoidance means squat. You can't dodge/parry/block when stunned, so you have to rely on having enough EH that your healers can keep you alive through it. Same thing with magical damage, avoidance means squat because you can't avoid it.

The biggest player based problem with avoidance over EH is it lulls the healers. You avoid 6-7 hits in a row healers stop paying attention, then BOOM! rng strikes and you take 3 in a row, healers didn't catch it and you're dead.

TL;DR
Avoidance will assuredly reduce the overall damage you take, however it won't save you from the killer bursts.


On a side note, unless things have changed(and its possible they have), expertise is significantly less effective for a Paladin than it is for a Warrior or Bear, due to less of your damage/threat being dodge/parriable.


Final thought. Best practice isn't always best practice for everyone. If your healers work better with your avoidance setup, then they can with a full EH setup, then perhaps you should stay the way you are. If you find you start dying to burst they can't cope with, perhaps its time to switch your setup.

Zothor
10-07-2009, 08:27 AM
Hello everyone and thanks in advance for the help.

I would like to know if I am set up right or are there some things that would improve my all around effectiveness as a tank.

My hp unbuffed is 28000+ I have very good mitigation. As you can see I have very few stam enchants as I went all for mitigation and have gemmed for threat.

The expertise gems have helped my threat incredibly. My expertise rating is 25. I had a hard time with threat early on but it is a non issue now. I went from about 10 expertise to 25 at one time by using several gems. I did not gradually build it up so I am not sure how much I could have stopped at.

I have successsfully tanked 10toc (normal) and never fall prematurely.

Armor 23963
defense 551
dodge 29.15
parry 17.59
block 18.85
hit 268

The reason I am looking for help is that some players think my HP is too low (even though 10ToC is no prob for me). It did get me to wonder though if I should replace some expertise gems for stam.

One thing I am sure of is the dodge trinks I have are many times better than the stam trinks such as the brewboss ones. When I used the 170+stam I was getting hit more and needed more heals, not so with the dodge trinks.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Winterhoof&n=Bonk)

The answer, unfortunately, is "not good." I'd like to suggest that, since you came to us with a question and then tried to answer it yourself, that you keep an open mind and hear things out.... some of those answers you think you're sure of are, in the consensus of the advanced tanking community, completely backwards.

Let's go piece by piece.

Start with your spec. We'll call this a positive, because it's reasonably good and hits on all of the required talents. You've obviously done some homework here. I'd only make two adjustments.

First, as far as reducing incoming damage, Vindication is now as effective as a fully talented Demo shout, except it goes up AUTOMATICALLY and you don't need someone else to put it up for you. Any halfway serious tank should have this. Whether you take the 2 points out of conviction or Pursuit of Justice is entirely a personal choice, depending on whether you'd prefer to sacrifice threat or mobility.

Second, Divinity... is a pretty garbage talent. Your incoming heals are almost always going to overheal you anyhow. TTL simulations have shown, repeatedly, that this talent virtually never saves you. Use those 3 points on something that might save you - common suggestions are Divine Sac/Divine Guardian, especially if you offtank a lot, Imp HoJ if you want access to a faster cooldown on your interrupt, or even 3/5 reckoning for a teensy bit more threat.

On to your gear:

There is really no way to butter this one up, no way to slice it differently, no way to blunt it: You are dead wrong about stamina. It is your best stat. It is the stat you should, especially as a paladin, be stacking whenever it is reasonably affordable and possible. Your job is not to keep your healers from having to heal - healing IS their job. Your job is to make yourself as durable and healable as possible while maintaining boss aggro. To that extent, I present a concept that is widely understood in the tanking community but which may be new to you: Effective Health.

Effective health is, quite simply, the amount of damage you'd need to take in a worst case scenario without receiving a heal to kill you. The reason we use EH as a gospel is because it's guaranteed - it doesn't depend on the random number generator to dodge, and it doesn't depend on a healer to save you. EH saves you itself, all the time, every time. Consequently, EH is your Actual health, affected 99% by your stamina, divided by your incoming damage reduction, affected 95% by your talents, buffs, and armor. This produces an effective health pool well in the 100k-200k range because tank level armor reduces more than half of every boss swing as it is.

Unless you never want to tank deep into Ulduar, let ALONE into TOC progression and Icecrown, you need stamina. And lots of it. The following three gems are, with very few exceptions, options for a prot paladin in a general maintanking setup:

Blue sockets: Solid Majestic Zircons or Dragon's Eyes. Period. Every one of your blue sockets should be gemmed straight stam. Every one of your dragon's eyes needs to be straight stam. This is not really negotiable.

Red Sockets: Common options are dodge/stam or strength stam, but protip - the best gem, point for point, for paladin tanks matching a red socket for the bonus is the Shifting Dreadstone, 10 agi/15 stam. This is because you get some dodge, threat (crit), and ARMOR from agi, making it the only non stam stat that adds to your effective health. And as we've mentioned, Effective health is absolutely KING.

Yellow sockets: Common options are Defense/stam and Hit/stam. hit stam for threat, defense stam for avoidance. Many, Many people ignore yellow sockets because they're pretty weak. My personal rule of thumb is that if I'm not getting a 9 stamina socket bonus per non-blue gem or better, I gem all my sockets for a straight 30 stamina as long as my meta gem is active.

As an aside, the 10 stats gem is pretty weak for Paladin Tanks. You're trading 5 stamina for 10 strength vs a Shifting Dreadstone, which unless you are building a threat set or hurting for threat (an entirely different issue) is not a trade you should realistically make.

Speaking of metas - Austere Earthsige Diamond. 32 stamina and 2% armor. Utterly non negotiable.

Enchants: 8 stats to chest is pretty crappy. As far as raw itemization value, 22 defense trumps everything, 10 stats if you REALLY want a balance of EH and avoidance, but if your'e thinking EH might as well go 275 health. Most tanks keep the 22 defense because point for point, it's the best deal on the slot.

Expertise, as previously mentioned, is not a particularly important stat for paladins. It's not a BAD stat anymore - things have changed a bit - so don't avoid gear simply because it has expertise, but as a paladin you should never be enchanting or gemming for it. Re-enchant your gloves with 18 stam armor kits for EH, 20 agility for avoidance, or Armsman for a combination of some threat and a bit of avoidance.

As for gear upgrades, well, those are obviously harder to get, but equip The Black Heart and one of the brewfest stamina trinkets immediately. The job of a healer is to heal. Your job is to survive long enough to GET a heal. You will never, as an avoidance geared tank, be able to trust that you will avoid often enough in current content to survive back to back hits without stacking your Effective Health. It's just not how it works in Wrath of the Lich King.

I'm sure that's a lot to absorb. I'm sorry it's going to be expensive, but it will make you more durable by a loooongshot.

Bonk
10-07-2009, 12:08 PM
I love these answers and see some options I am going to try for certain. For example I love to OT because many times it is the more active roll. I have divine shield and divine sacrife combo on my ret build so it too will fit nicely while OT as well and I know how to use it. Expensive is the name of the game and the price of tanking. Good thing I have alts to do the work and I like to do Naxx 10 to help friends gear for future raiding and it pays well and is good raid practice.

Another reason that I never went all stam is because the last two raiding guilds I was in both agreed that the #1 warning sign for a noob tank was to see 40K health and unless they had all 232 gear or above they probably had no clue what they were doing. These 40K tanks would often go down very quick as the mitigation was nil. Usually the bads tanks will fill all slots with stam and are easy to spot.

I have also been through much of U25 which most consider easier than 10toc. Cleared 25 voa as well.

---

The biggest reason I am here right now is my last raiding guild disolved and I find myself pugging raids now and everytime I get in one to tank I hear " you only have 28K unbuffed". Linking the achieve to that raid doesnt seem to console many. Although I know most likely I will end up being the last one standing in a wipe :P. All the naysaying though got me to think that perhaps there are some things I could improve upon and that this would be the perfect place to ask. Ever since I first started tanking raids I never had to pug anything being in guild runs but it also didnt help me get very well known outside the guild.

I think my biggest problem is just in pugging LOL. When a pug wipes they find a scapegoat and since they complained about me before the raid ever started I get the blame. My comment back of " I was the last one to die" will be met to the pinging of them leaving vent. Haha. I am trying more pugs to try to get better known but it seems to be backfiring as pugs in the nature are filled with those who dont get along with others anyways.