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Tazlex
10-05-2009, 09:00 PM
So, my Paladin needs his quarterly check up in a way. Currently I'm a little boggled in proceeding from my current point.

World of Warcraft Armory: Tazlex

As I said I am a little boggled. For a little background, my guild only runs 10 man raids (as we are a 10 man guild). So my loot selection isn't necessarily limited, but any 25 man gear that is an upgrade for me I would have to pug in order to have a chance at it. In which I try to do as often as possible.

So I have a few questions, and all criticism in welcome. Overall would I be able to tank 25 ToC? Importantly a PuG 25 ToC. Also I haven't checked my threat but I believe my threat is a little on the low side (something around 5k to 6k edit: checked with guildies and they claim I do 7 to 9k in raids). I know Strength, SBV, and Hit are all important factors in generating threat. Seeing that I am lacking SBV on any gear, how bad is that? Also I have almost 30 Triumph emblems so I am considering on what piece of Tier 9 to look into getting. I know the Legs, and Helmet have SBV on them, but I've also looked at getting the gloves.

Currently with the Libram of Defiance Proccing and no raid buffs, I'm at about 103.4% avoidance (or unhittable whichever it is). I'm a little concerned in a way of changing out some gear for SBV and loosing avoidance. So a little bit of direction would be greatfully appreciated. Thank you very much in advance.

Mert
10-06-2009, 03:10 AM
Regarding threat, if people aren't able to pull aggro from you then you're doing enough. It's of course something that you should always keep in mind when looking at gear choices, but don't go out of your way to gear for threat unless you're having specific threat issues in raids. Also, don't forget that your threat will be higher in TotC than Ulduar due to the bonus damage against "DUH" mobs in the Coliseum.

Block Value is certainly a nice stat for threat but don't worry about swapping out for a stronger piece and losing your 102.4% status - for one thing, raid buffs will usually get you a percent or two toward it anyway and secondly it's generally not as valuable to your survival as EH or Avoidance (notable exception being Anub'arak's adds where a strong block set is very useful).

With your gear I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to tank TotC-25. Your spec and glyph choices are spot on and your gear is gemmed and enchanted generally pretty well (though I've never really liked Armsman on gloves, personally). Interestingly, you're one of the first people I've seen who's actually been right to gem Parry; for you (char_sheet_dodge% - 10) / (char_sheet_parry% - 10) = 1.98 (3sf) and 1.88 is the "golden ratio" at which point it becomes more beneficial to stack Parry over Dodge. Apologies if you already knew this, but I thought I'd point it out for future reference just in case.

Generally you should be fine - a PUG in TotC-25 will likely suffer co-ordination issues before it suffers from gearing ones as there's a few fights that need people to react quickly and know what it is they're meant to be doing.

Good luck :)

Zothor
10-06-2009, 06:51 AM
In my personal bias, there's never a right time to gem parry, because every paladin should be gemming agi anyhow :P Armor, son, Armor! I'm an EH nazi though, and armor+dodge+crit in one gem is like my bestest friend ever. Still, if you really like the avoidance the parry is fine.

Your gear is in plenty of shape to tank TOC 25. Your next steps in progression with your guild will apparantly have to be heroic 10 man. The first two bosses of heroic 10 man are very doable, but are pretty tight DPS checks. If your guild, as a whole, isn't slightly better geared than you I think you might have problems hitting those checks, as you'll get multiple bosses/adds spawning that don't need to. You could have rockstar DPS though so I don't know. ALL of the heroic 10 loot is worth getting, save the dodge trinket (what a piece of junk). Most of it is better than the 25 man regular loot because of sockets.

Your threat should be fine if you're running a clean 969 rotation. If you don't know what that means... look it up immediately and study it intensely.

102.4 is a totally unimportant number for boss tanking in current content. It was required in TBC, it was valuable in the Naxx tier of content, but since Ulduar the bosses have been hitting too hard for block to be considered a significant part of your incoming damage reduction.

Here's where I think you screwed up: PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT BUY THE 232 ilvl NO TROPHY TIER SETS. I wish I had a blink tag to make that even more loud and obnoxious. You're talking about wasting badges on stuff with less stam, less armor, less avoidance threat... less EVERYTHING you need compared to the 245 Helm and Shoulders that are offset pieces. Both are significantly better than their 232 counterparts. Tanking gear is 95% about ilvl because stam and armor are normalized to level, with very few exceptions usually caused by sockets or trinkets. I hope you didn't buy the shoulders with badges vs. Shoulders of the Enduring Order (or whatever the horde equivalent is called) or I'm going to be very, very sad.

Don't waste triumph badges on 232 trash until you have all the 245 upgrades you need.

Mert
10-06-2009, 08:08 AM
In my personal bias, there's never a right time to gem parry, because every paladin should be gemming agi anyhow :P Armor, son, Armor! I'm an EH nazi though, and armor+dodge+crit in one gem is like my bestest friend ever. Still, if you really like the avoidance the parry is fine.

Heh, I actually agree and I have Agi/Stam gems in most of my red sockets myself for that very reason (plus, Agi scales with Kings, double woot) but I thought I'd get in before the "AMG nevar gem for parry you fiend!" brigade came in. From a mathematical point of view at the very least he's maximising his avoidance by gemming Parry with his gear, even if not strictly his EH.

Zothor
10-06-2009, 12:20 PM
plus, Agi scales with Kings, double woot

Considering that most of the posted (Read: Theck's) figures on the damage reduction component of Agi were calculated INCLUDING kings, I find the consistent statement that agi scaling with kings is a bonus a little disingenuous and misleading.

The 97% as good as dodge rating for reducing overall damage through dodge and armor figure requires kings. Without kings, Agi isn't anywhere near dodge for reducing incoming damage.

I'll still gem it till they change something :)

Tazlex
10-06-2009, 12:57 PM
In my personal bias, there's never a right time to gem parry, because every paladin should be gemming agi anyhow :P Armor, son, Armor! I'm an EH nazi though, and armor+dodge+crit in one gem is like my bestest friend ever. Still, if you really like the avoidance the parry is fine.

Your gear is in plenty of shape to tank TOC 25. Your next steps in progression with your guild will apparantly have to be heroic 10 man. The first two bosses of heroic 10 man are very doable, but are pretty tight DPS checks. If your guild, as a whole, isn't slightly better geared than you I think you might have problems hitting those checks, as you'll get multiple bosses/adds spawning that don't need to. You could have rockstar DPS though so I don't know. ALL of the heroic 10 loot is worth getting, save the dodge trinket (what a piece of junk). Most of it is better than the 25 man regular loot because of sockets.

Your threat should be fine if you're running a clean 969 rotation. If you don't know what that means... look it up immediately and study it intensely.

102.4 is a totally unimportant number for boss tanking in current content. It was required in TBC, it was valuable in the Naxx tier of content, but since Ulduar the bosses have been hitting too hard for block to be considered a significant part of your incoming damage reduction.

I always run the 969 rotation :P, sadly there is only one person in my guild that can put in any considerable input on Paladin tanking. Anything else I have to divulge into pages of research. I was looking at Thecks work on Maintankadin when I saw a earlier thread mentioning to gem Agility in red sockets. It sparked my curiosity quite a bit. So, I went ahead and fixed those gems.

Sadly half of my guilds raiders do not want to run TotC (they don't like it currently for some reason). We, being the few that have ran TotC, know we can clear it easily, however we don't exactly have a steller cast of DPS. Only 3 of our raiders can pull over 4k consistently (rest that often come are below or around 3k). Which is rather straining as it is on some fights that take time. So Heroic TotC probably will not happen for me anytime soon. Which hence, I try to pug them as often as I am able to.


Here's where I think you screwed up: PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT BUY THE 232 ilvl NO TROPHY TIER SETS. I wish I had a blink tag to make that even more loud and obnoxious. You're talking about wasting badges on stuff with less stam, less armor, less avoidance threat... less EVERYTHING you need compared to the 245 Helm and Shoulders that are offset pieces. Both are significantly better than their 232 counterparts. Tanking gear is 95% about ilvl because stam and armor are normalized to level, with very few exceptions usually caused by sockets or trinkets. I hope you didn't buy the shoulders with badges vs. Shoulders of the Enduring Order (or whatever the horde equivalent is called) or I'm going to be very, very sad.

Don't waste triumph badges on 232 trash until you have all the 245 upgrades you need./feels shamed

I won't deny it. The shoulders were bought with Triumph badges. I'm glad that I kinda know now even though to late. I can aim in a different direction and save more badges for the offset pieces.

Thank you Zothar and Mert. Help and insight is much appreciated.

Mert
10-06-2009, 07:44 PM
Considering that most of the posted (Read: Theck's) figures on the damage reduction component of Agi were calculated INCLUDING kings, I find the consistent statement that agi scaling with kings is a bonus a little disingenuous and misleading.

Of course the calculations assume Kings and I think I may have been a little lazy in what I wrote but my point about it scaling wasn't that it was an extra bonus on top per se but that because Kings works on a percentage basis, the more of it you have the more you get when Kings is applied. I guess in a sense I was more praising the nature of Kings itself rather than saying Agi was "even better when you consider Kings scaling". I simply like that I can have an avoidance-related stat that I can increase by 10% unlike Dodge itself.

You're right to pick me up on it though - it certainly wasn't the clearest post I've ever written but my intention wasn't to imply Kings was an added bonus on top of Agi but more that the fact Agi can increase proportionally rather than linerarly is awesome.