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View Full Version : It seems more than gear, spec and ratings



kimbermatic
10-03-2009, 02:56 PM
I was mostly a PVP player. With WOTLK I changed to a protection spec along with gear, spec and enchants.

My guild is small and I main tank the dungeons. Regular 80 dungeons, and most heroic's I am fine as the main tank.

However when I tank with a pug or raid I hear nothing but criticism on my tanking.

I use current rotation, aggro is good, but what am I missing?

Maybe I am being too sensitive, but it seems that it maybe the way I attack move thru the mobs not sure.

I have been thinking maybe I should join a bigger guild though that might be a problem since I am the GM.

I almost feel like I would like to apprentice with an experienced tank to pick up on what I am missing.

Anyone else gone through this? How did you work through this situation I would love to know.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nordrassil&n=Rasman)

Mctankor
10-03-2009, 06:25 PM
Welcome to tanking :p

I guess the only way to find out what they yell about is to ask them what they want done different and just as important why.

Reev
10-03-2009, 06:35 PM
Running with an experienced tank would probably be very helpful. In fact, I think it'd be the most helpful thing you could do. You've already got the right attitude in coming to ask for help. Just keep that up. A lot of tanking is knowing fights well, knowing how to position mobs, knowing what works best for your healers and dps.

Solasun
10-03-2009, 06:47 PM
You might like to look at not only the Protection video posted on the main page currently but Ciderhelm's older video on tank techniques that's buried in the Project Marmot subforum if you haven't already.

Thaak
10-04-2009, 01:53 AM
What exactly are they finding fault with?

Spec/gear/enchants look fine(I don't like Blade Ward, but that could just be a me thing). You've got more than enough health/avoidance to tank any and all dungeons, not to mention most raids(I remember tanking naxx25 with 26kish unbuffed). Only real fault i find with your setup is you hit is really low, however if all you're doing is dungeons, its not really that low, as the hit cap is lower. Gemming is a touch odd, you're crit immune and still gemming defense.

As long as you're holding aggro, and moving forward at a decent rate, thats about all there is to heroics. Personally in Heroics i strap on the old shield block set(which is about 10k hp less health than my EH set but has around 3k SBV with glyph up and 42ish% Block) and just run. My goal in heroics is to move at such a pace that i beat all the DPS in overall damage done.

If you have specific questions, feel free to ask, or if you remember what they are finding fault with maybe we can help. Otherwise thats all i got.

kimbermatic
10-05-2009, 10:01 AM
Thanks for your comments.

Yesterday went better. I did two heroics with pug groups. In both cases we progressed thru the dungeons fine and finished. In both dungeons I had some very experienced players and asked them how it went. Both indicated that I picked up mobs fine and kept them from the healer. But both indicated it was more to do with my first attack. One hunter kept jumping my target and he was in my guild so I had him wait. The other person indicated that my first attack didn't always position the mob right.

I just watched the videos again as I remembered the commentary on Mob positioning. Tonight I will work on this either in a dungeon or questing with the pally in our guild. Thanks to those that put the video together.

Second I have met some players from larger guilds and asked that they consider me in raids. I told them I am looking for experience and advice and am very willing to be a second tank and not as concerned about gear.

Thaak,

Thanks for the look at my spec. You stated

"Gemming is a touch odd, you're crit immune and still gemming defense."

Are you suggesting I gem for crit and immune? I was trying to gem for as much Def as I could get, but if getting more crit and immune would help, it is a suggestion I would definitely try.

Kimbermatic

Reev
10-05-2009, 10:07 AM
No Kimber, what he is saying is that after you reach 540 defense, you cannot be crit by mobs, you are "crit immune." After 540, defense is still a good stat, as it provides a lot of avoidance, but the generally accepted way to gem for the majority of fights these days is Stamina in every slot, unless you need a red gem for a meta requirement, or the socket bonus is too good to pass up.

So basically, try to gem more stamina. Although from the sounds of it, your problem appears to be more in mob positioning and initial threat. Most of that will come to you with practice and continued reading on these sites.

MellvarTank
10-05-2009, 10:11 AM
When he says "Crit Immune" he means you have hit def cap (540) and are still gemming.

I see two issues here:

1) You are NEVER crit immune. It's called a defense CAP for a reason, specifically so that you can't become crit immune. The chance of you getting crit at 540 is so minute that it seems like you are immune, but you could still (1 time out of 1,000,000) be crit by a boss and 1-shotted.

2) Gemming defense will help your dodge rating over 540 defense rating, but you could gem something better than defense. I usually try to stay around 540-550 defense rating, and use the gem slots for things like stamina, parry, dodge, expertise (if needed), hit rating (if needed), etc.

Strit
10-05-2009, 10:12 AM
Well, if you are defense "capped", then you shouldn't gem for defense, you should gem for more health.

He's not saying you should gem for crit. Tanks should never gem for crit. But if you can't reach 540 defense skill without gems, then you should gem for defense in order to be crit-immune.

Griff
10-05-2009, 10:40 AM
That being said, extra defense isn't a bad thing. The defense enchants for cloak, shield and chest are contenders for warriors with other enchants for items in those slots, just don't gem for defense after that magic 540 number is obtained.

Mob positioning in 5 mans especially is really the key to effective tanking. Some of your abilities only work on stuff that's in front of you, so its good to always be facing in the direction of your healers. This also has the added benefit of turning the backs of the critters you're tanking towards your party, thus increasing their damage on the mobs. Its also much easier to target and taunt that runner who's gotten a sudden craving for delicious healers and has started to jog over towards the clothie buffet.

Correct positioning also makes tab targeting through a pack and cleaving more effective, thus leading to stronger aggro leads. It also makes shockwave easier to use when they are all lined up in a convenient frontal cone.

As a previous poster said, situational awareness and the experience to be able to anticipate things that will come up in any given encounter can only be learned through practice so keep at it.

kimbermatic
10-05-2009, 10:55 AM
Thanks for the quick replies. I understand now the gemming issue/question (Strit).

Griff, the positioning comment you said about facing the healer caused when of those "light bulb goes on" moments with me. I probably do this more wrong than right.

Now why I probably position poorly is one of hearing healers complain about line of sight. From what Griff just stated the line of sight to a healer is not impacted by a the boss or mob being in between me and the healer or should I pull to the side to clear line of sight?

Thanks for putting up with some noob questions here. I just don't want to be known as a wanna be tank :)

Insahnity
10-05-2009, 10:58 AM
Thanks for your comments.

Yesterday went better. I did two heroics with pug groups. In both cases we progressed thru the dungeons fine and finished. In both dungeons I had some very experienced players and asked them how it went. Both indicated that I picked up mobs fine and kept them from the healer. But both indicated it was more to do with my first attack. One hunter kept jumping my target and he was in my guild so I had him wait. The other person indicated that my first attack didn't always position the mob right.

You should post your general rotation tendancies on the pull. You should adjust your openings for various situations. Having said that, here are some tips, assuming your positioning on pull is your biggest problem:

1) For groups, TC and shockwave are crucial, since you have one shot at it before a (relatively) long CD sets in. This is what makes warrior tanking harder than most other tanks. You want to pull and make sure everything is in a tight cluster and then TC, but you need to do this quick or the DPS won't wait and pull some (but not all) off you. Once you have them all in a good arrangement, then you are golden for a shockwave. A prime example of this is ToC Black Knight Phase 2, when the army of the dead is popping up. You need to wait for all the adds to spawn, but you need to gather up everything that has spawned already or you will start losing them. It's a balancing act that is only accomplished through sheer experience.
2) For single targets, even if its not needed, ALWAYS make the boss face away from the raid. Aside from keeping cleaves/breath weapons/etc. away from the raid, it puts the bosses arse pointed to the melee DPS for sphincter abuse.
3) You are VERY fortunate if you have a guildy hunter with you. The best help s/he can give is to MD at EVERY CD. And I mean all the time, but the initial pulls are crucial. I find most hunter's just don't do that enough, as well as rogues, but then I just PuG it all and I see alot of huntards. The value of this will get even better with the 3.3 changes to hunter misdirect. With solid aggro, you can direct your attention to more positioning and less on acquiring aggro.

Situational awareness (where mobs and raid members are positioned, environmental damage, getting all the info you need from your UI) is huge for all tanks, and warriors are well equipped to take advantage of situational changes (mobility via intercept AND charge, huge taunt uptime with a well placed vigilence, to name a few).

Quinlan
10-05-2009, 11:06 AM
A Hunter is one of your best friends especially if you find one that doesnt mind a little hit to his personal dps to use scorpid sting and MD. I have a hunter i play also and even though he's BM spec hes gets invites because hes not a meter hound and does all the little things that RLs notice for the raid.

Griff
10-05-2009, 11:11 AM
Now why I probably position poorly is one of hearing healers complain about line of sight. From what Griff just stated the line of sight to a healer is not impacted by a the boss or mob being in between me and the healer or should I pull to the side to clear line of sight?

There are two types of LoS you need to worry about.

The first is mechanical. Is there a terrain obstruction in-game that would prevent you from using your intervene or charge against a healer/enemy? If so, you've been mechanically obstructed.

The second is visual - you might have an unobstructed mechanical line of sight to your healer, but if you've got a screen full of giant boss knees, you've got a visual obstruction to your LOS. The key difference here is that the visual LOS obstruction won't prevent you from using your abilities but it might hinder your awareness of when those abilities need to be used. Generally, I find tanking with myr camara pulled back helps my situational awareness quite alot.

You should also check out Cider's informative 'Situational Awareness' tutorial video if you've not done so.

dirt
10-05-2009, 11:19 AM
I would just add, positioning helps alot. LoS is your friend and depending on the types of mobs can really effect pulls going good or bad. This is especially true for caster mobs or tightly packed groups.

Halls of Stone comes to mind for me. I use LoS quite often to get the mobs to come to me, otherwise with multiple casters and pats you can end up tanking 2-3 groups at once if your not careful.

Another tip, and this may have already been mentioned. But I like to charge in or pull and turn facing my healers & dps. That way if a mob decides to take off, I can taunt him back or SW, plus as a general rule of thumb it's always better to turn mobs away from the raid, this is especially true in raids.

And lastly, on the hunter comments. I can speak from experience as my wife is a very well geared hunter. In 5 mans, if she focus fires it's difficult for me to hold aggro alot of times. She does so much damage and crits alot, so her threat is through the roof. I'm happy to say, she knows how to play a hunter properly and she MD's to me often. Your DPS needs to understand not only their mechanics, but yours as well. You need a few secs to establish aggro, they need know what they can do to help if things get out of control. PuGs are a role of the dice, some good some bad.

kimbermatic
10-05-2009, 11:47 AM
My rotation has been single mob or boss: Charge, SS, shockwave, sunder (5) on a boss, TC.

On multiple targets: Heroic throw at secondary, with charge at primary (Working on this a bit tricky), SS, TC, shockwave, Devestate, Sunder 5

I have full screen out, and try to view the battle especially adds that have entered from behind or the side.

I do feel that I need to improve my intercept and use of shield wall at the right situation.

Who says good tanking is easy???

Griff
10-05-2009, 12:09 PM
When you say 'Sunder 5' I'm assuming you mean you're stacking five sunder debuffs with devestate rather than actually using sunder. If not, sunder is obsolete with dev and shouldn't be used.

On multiple targets, you shouldn't worry about stacking sunder so much - are you glyphed into cleave? Try SS, TC, position change for shockwave, Devestate, cleave, tab target dev, cleave, thunderclap, etc.

Petninja
10-05-2009, 12:28 PM
When he says "Crit Immune" he means you have hit def cap (540) and are still gemming.

I see two issues here:

1) You are NEVER crit immune. It's called a defense CAP for a reason, specifically so that you can't become crit immune. The chance of you getting crit at 540 is so minute that it seems like you are immune, but you could still (1 time out of 1,000,000) be crit by a boss and 1-shotted.

2) Gemming defense will help your dodge rating over 540 defense rating, but you could gem something better than defense. I usually try to stay around 540-550 defense rating, and use the gem slots for things like stamina, parry, dodge, expertise (if needed), hit rating (if needed), etc.

Wrong wrong wrongity wrong. 540 IS crit immune against lvl 83 mobs (bosses) provided they don't have their crit table modified (or a /sit happens). That is why it is called CRIT IMMUNE and not DEFENSE CAP. Defense cap is wrong, because it isn't capped. It just won't make you any more crit immune. If 540 were somehow to allow you to be crit 1/1000000 times 541 would still make you crit immune. You don't have to believe us if you don't want to, but the majority of the community agrees with this and has data to back it.

kimbermatic
10-05-2009, 01:10 PM
Yes, I meant stacking 5 sunder debuffs with devastate. I also came to the same conclusion to move TC and SS position as I was typing and reading the helpful responses.

Thaak
10-05-2009, 01:14 PM
When he says "Crit Immune" he means you have hit def cap (540) and are still gemming.

I see two issues here:

1) You are NEVER crit immune. It's called a defense CAP for a reason, specifically so that you can't become crit immune. The chance of you getting crit at 540 is so minute that it seems like you are immune, but you could still (1 time out of 1,000,000) be crit by a boss and 1-shotted.

2) Gemming defense will help your dodge rating over 540 defense rating, but you could gem something better than defense. I usually try to stay around 540-550 defense rating, and use the gem slots for things like stamina, parry, dodge, expertise (if needed), hit rating (if needed), etc.


1) Its called a "defense cap" because people don't understand it. Its not a cap. Its the point at which you become crit immune. Are there still times you can be crit? Yes and no. In any normal situation, no. It you have a particular debuff(defense reduction-no longer at 540, Thorim springs to mind), or a mob gets a particular buff(crit increase-no longer a 5.6% chance, can't name one off the top of my head), then yes, in those abnormal circumstances you can be crit. You can also be crit if you sit down during combat. Where are you coming up with this random 1 in a million crit that can strike from nowhere?

2)Gemming defense isn't wrong, it's just odd(by odd i mean, not what you typically see). Every point of defense over 540 still increases your Dodge/Parry/Block/Chance to be missed by .04%, so for heroics and naxx(where block is very nice) defense is a wonderful stat for survivability. In retrospect given the content that he said he was in, its less odd and more appropriate.

Somehow in my original post i got derailed when i brought up gems. I meant to talk more about them, but didn't. You have 32.6k unbuffed health. Regardless of what ANYONE tells you, that is a lot for heroics or naxx. If they can't heal you with that amount of health(and the avoidance i can see on your character sheet) they are bad(provided you aren't doing dumb stuff). The point of all this being unless you are planning on moving into higher tiers of raiding, you don't need to gem for stamina. You're free to gem into more threat, or more avoidance(your choice on if you make the dpsers or the healers lives easier).

On a side note, since you are specced into gag order, your Heroic Throw will silence a target for 3 seconds. REALLY nice for bringing those stray casters into melee range.

If you replace your Glyph of revenge, with a glyph of Cleaving, your cleave will now hit 3 targets. Its nice for AoE threat.



On multiple targets: Heroic throw at secondary, with charge at primary (Working on this a bit tricky), SS, TC, shockwave, Devestate, Sunder 5
If you mean its tricky to get your heroic throw off and then target the primary mob for charge, perhaps this will help.

Set the mob you want to heroic throw at as your focus. If you use standard blizz UI, then target it, right click and set focus(if you use pitbull3 you need to target it and then type /focus). After it is set, target your primary target. Then use this macro i wrote you.

/cast [target=focus] Heroic Throw

This will Heroic Throw at whatever your focus is, without having to have it targeted. As soon as you see your weapon flying through the air, hit your charge button, and you'll charge to what ever your target is set as. You just have to remember and focus the mob you want to use it on prior to every pull.

Example
Target caster (this is who you want to heroic throw)
/focus (sets the caster as your focus)\
Target skull (whoever you want to charge and kill first)
/cast [target=focus] Heroic Throw (Heroic Throw is launched at caster)
CHARGE (charges toward your target)

You are now standing beside skull, and the caster is running as fast as he can towards you because he is silenced.

EDIT: Didn't mean to repost things that had been said by other people. Wandered away from the computer while writing this and by the time i got it finished, more people had posted.

kimbermatic
10-05-2009, 02:31 PM
MellvarTank thanks for the macro and all, I have learned more about my tanking in the last couple of days on this site about tanking than I did lvling my toon.

The videos and advice have just been GREAT. I am jazzed to try out the recommendations and it will probably take a few times reading thru the posts to absorb all that is on this thread alone. One of the drawbacks of being in a small guild without a lot of expertise to guide me.

Hopefully one day I can pass on what I have learned as u did....

kimbermatic
10-06-2009, 09:29 AM
Just an update.

Last night went well. I did a little re-gemming. I worked on my positioning as suggested.

I was with a pug and no one died and the healer didn't seem to have to work to hard.

Again thanks to everyone for their help.. I was about to give up on the Warrior Tank if it wasn't for you all.

Griff
10-06-2009, 01:01 PM
Woot!