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View Full Version : Gear and stat requirements for ToC hc



Venom Rush
09-29-2009, 12:49 AM
Hi everyone

I tried to tank ToC hc last night and got chewed up like beef jerky on the first boss encounter. I'm not sure if it's the fact that I'm possibly under-geared of if the healer was just being nub (I was told by guildies that pally healers have a hard time in ToC hc, who knows).

Basically I'm looking to find out what stats I need in order to tank ToC hc successfully.

In frost presence I have just over 27k hp and close to 25k armor.

WoW Armory Link (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ahn%27Qiraj&n=Unruley)

Any advice will be greatly appreciated ;)

EDIT: Armory now shows my tank gear ;)

Gigla
09-29-2009, 06:07 AM
27k for TotGC is really sub par- that would indicate that you are more at a heroic level of gearing rather than high end progression. You logged out in dps gear so i cant really say what your gear is like but based on arm/hp, you should be looking more at naxx. For future reference you want to be at least 35, pref 36k hp un buffed as a dk OT in Totgc, with 27k armor. Another thing to consider would be to change your spec-Blood isnt as viable mitigation wise as frost is for totgc.

drakoo
09-29-2009, 06:20 AM
pallys have a good advantage in there imo, but 27k isn't very good >.<
most tanks take a shit load of dmg on the first boss you should blow any dmg reducing ability's you have at the start
but yeah your heals was probably nub :P

Erja
09-29-2009, 06:30 AM
Surely you're talking about ToC 5-man, correct? It's not evident from your post.

Anyway, 27k is a bit low but not unhealable with a well-geared healer.

Mert
09-29-2009, 06:37 AM
Aye, you're perhaps on the low side for the Heroic 5-man but no reason why it shouldn't be doable with a decent enough healer. Paladins do struggle a little here but that's not really in terms of keeping the tank up - it's more that the final stage of the Black Knight needs to go down quickly before the party damage gets too great (Paladins are horrendous raid healers). That's a concern primarily for your DPS, however.

You appear to have logged out in your DPS gear, so it's hard to say specifically if there's an obvious, addressable issue. As a general thing, however, you want to be working on your Sons of Hodir Rep. It looks like you are, but you'd be surprised how many applicants to my guild I've had recently who haven't even started it.

Don't be surprised if it takes a few more Heroics (and badge loot) before you're comfortably tanking ToC Heroic (5-man) - it's designed for people around the gear level that you'd expect going into Ulduar-10. Keep at it and you'll get there eventually :)

Suessa
09-29-2009, 07:08 AM
One really helpful tool is WoW Heroes - World of Warcraft PvE character info & ratings (http://www.wow-heroes.com) There is a little bar at the top that will have all the raids sectioned off based on how difficult they would be for you based on your current gear level, with the recommended raids selected. If you are talking about doing 10 or even 25 ToC in this post, this would have given you some pretty valuable insight.

Assuming, though, that you are talking about 5-man ToC, Heroic, this would still be helpful, because it's roughly on the same difficulty level as Ulduar 10 (or the first part of Ulduar 10, at least). So if your meter is telling you you're ready for Ulduar 10, you should have no trouble with H ToC.

That's a really simple way to find out what kind of gear you need. Doing heroic instances and heroic dailies until you are in as much 226/245 badge gear as possible is a great start.

uglybbtoo
09-29-2009, 08:17 AM
pallys have a good advantage in there imo, but 27k isn't very good >.<
most tanks take a shit load of dmg on the first boss you should blow any dmg reducing ability's you have at the start
but yeah your heals was probably nub :P

Rubbish on the first boss my pally takes metric tons of damage, my warrior takes alot less damage it has so many stuns and silences and can disarm the warrior and rogue, can stop the shaman healing ever. The only advantage a pally has is it can cleanse itself on first boss but you find it hard to keep up with the rogues ability to stack the poison crap.

The whole first fight is about control or massive dps. You can take either tact unfortunately for pallys we have 1 stun and shield toss on long cd's so control is just about absorbing mega damage and cleansing. I took one of my warriors in here in heroic/naxx 10 gear and had no problem but you have to treat first fight like pvp. I don't play a DK but believe you have interrupts you need to be using them its not so much a tank but a pvp fight with 3 enemies approach it like that.

The kill order is fairly straight fwd shaman healer first to die other than that its the rogue or warrior because those 2 are the most lethal ... the healer first because he will hold them up. The hunter, mage are nuisance value you take the melee to them do not leave them at range.

If you doubt your skill take high dps like 3K+ or take classes that can control rogues, hunters and shaman.

Fights 2 and 3 there is definite pally advantages in and it comes in two forms there taunt and holy wrath. RD is on a target and is all mobs attacking the target so it is easy to keep adds off the healer and holy wrath stuns all undead which the adds are so you can freeze all the adds and allow dps to move away if targetted.

The only percieved problem pally healers have with h-TOC is the 3rd fight because the damage (Death's Bite - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=67808) is)) on every party and they have no group heal. Without overgeared healer this is actually slightly misleading because a group heal from a shaman, druid or priest will not hold up the person with Marked For Death - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=67823) (they are taking 4K per sec) so what happens is those marked die one by one but hopefully the boss dies before the last dps. Reality is I dont think pally healers any worse here than any other healer it's down to there skill.

Kioku
09-29-2009, 08:28 AM
I do find it slightly easier to heal this fight on my druid, who's gear is far subpar to my paladin's holy gear. In the Pvp encounter, I find that there is more raid dmg, especially if you are melee heavy, and of course in p3 of the Black Knight fight, Wild Growth and Tranquility save lives.

But that being said, the survivability of a paladin healer still gives a good advantage. My pally can deal with a ghoul or two beating on me, and I often will have casters stand near me and will keep a consecrate down while I'm healing so that dps can focus on killing the Black Knight instead of panicking about adds.

As to the gear level, I would aim for at least 30k HP unbuffed to tank the 5 man version of H ToC. I tanked it for the first time with just over that on my paladin and nearly got smushed, but this was partly a healer problem, as well. Now I'm sitting around 32k unbuffed and I generally find it fairly easy.

Keep in mind to use your mitigation CD's when they are needed-- take some of the load off the healer when possible. Other than that, best of luck =)

~Kioku

Theotherone
09-29-2009, 09:33 AM
27k should be fine for h toc (5 man instance), don't get hung up by the "super stamina" crowd (stam is impt, but let's keep it in perspective, we're not talking Frozen Blows here) your bigger issue is probably the dual wielding. While it's really cool looking (I did early on), your expertise is only soft capped, so you're prone to getting nailed on parries. Get a nice two hander.

Personally, I'd drop the points in Threat of Thassarian and Epidemic and max out Bladed Armor and put the other two into Blood of the North. Also, I'd drop the glyph of IBF (not really useful anymore) and get either glyph of DnD, Obliterate or Rune Strike. Also, get your minor glyphs Raise Dead, Horn of Winter and Pestilence. Lastly, get moving on your professions your real close to being able to enchant your rings for 30 stam each and Jewel Crafting is doing you no good at lvl 51.

nethervoid
09-29-2009, 11:04 AM
I've tanked that place with 24.5k hps. The rule of soft-tank, heavy-healer and vice versa is in place here. 27k should be easy enough, so long as you don't have any fresh 80s in there (fresh dps like to sneak in on heroics without doing anything else previous).

If you have low hps, make sure you kill the rogue ASAP (after the sham). He drops those poison patches that really suck.

Theotherone
09-29-2009, 11:08 AM
Rogue, Hunter, Warrior FTW!!!!!!!!!

Venom Rush
09-30-2009, 01:07 AM
Surely you're talking about ToC 5-man, correct? It's not evident from your post.

Anyway, 27k is a bit low but not unhealable with a well-geared healer.

Sorry about not being explicitly clear. I'm am indeed talking about the 5 man hc.

P.S. My armory now shows my tanking gear ;)

Venom Rush
09-30-2009, 02:09 AM
your bigger issue is probably the dual wielding. While it's really cool looking (I did early on), your expertise is only soft capped, so you're prone to getting nailed on parries. Get a nice two hander.

As I know it, bosses cannot dodge once you hit the soft cap and cannot parry once you hit the hard cap, regardless of whether you're using 1h weapons or a 2h. Am I wrong here?

MellvarTank
09-30-2009, 08:41 AM
One handed weapons requires some really fantastic gear to effectively tank with. If you are still pulling gear out of H TotC then you may have a hard time with it.

The thing to remember on H TotC: The warrior will destroy melee dps with whirlwind, the rogue will destroy melee with fan of knives (which poisons), the Healer always dies first, the mage is soft and more annoying than anything, the Hunter will kill your healer. Usually, I will go (priority wise) Healer, Hunter, Rogue, Warrior, Mage. The reason: If there is only a few melee dps then the rogue is only a threat to the tank, same with the warrior, the hunter will do a multi shot that will destroy your healer, and the healer (shaman) is just a go figure for first kill so that he doesn't heal anyone. Your kill order may change because you are a DK, but warriors mitigate physical damage really well, and disarm works great on the warrior boss, so I will usually leave him until last.

Eadric/Confessor Paletress are fairly simple, the Confessor is more of a healer fight than anything, whereas Eadric is a standard tank 'n' spank.

The BK is straight forward in phase one, phase 2 is handy with your cooldowns and army, as well as your AoE to help pick up adds. Phase 3 is a dps race and the tank (oddly enough) takes the least damage.

The whole encounter is relatively straight forward, so if you are geared for it and have a good healer there shouldn't be any problems. You are going to want more health though, as that whirlwind by the warrior boss will pretty much one shot you if you don't have a large health pool.

Bovinity
09-30-2009, 09:16 AM
One really helpful tool is WoW Heroes - World of Warcraft PvE character info & ratings (http://www.wow-heroes.com/) There is a little bar at the top that will have all the raids sectioned off based on how difficult they would be for you based on your current gear level, with the recommended raids selected. If you are talking about doing 10 or even 25 ToC in this post, this would have given you some pretty valuable insight.

I'd have to disagree with this, actually. WoW Heroes is a pretty terrible tool all around as all it does it look at item level. It won't tell you a darn thing about the actual effectiveness of the gear/gems/enchants you choose. You'll also find yourself encouraged to use inferior items of a higher iLvl just because the site is telling you to get a higher score.

Insahnity
09-30-2009, 10:00 AM
While it is difficult to heal HToC 5 man as a Pally, they do have some tricks up their sleeve to help cope. I would look at yourself first, I would grind more gear before trying it. I would say in general be at ~30k unbuffed before you try it.

Some specifics
-Dual Wield tanking I would say is a no-no for you, you sacrifice too much to get it, and you are nowhere near geared enough to even contemplate it. Go back to 2h with stoneskin gargoyle runeforge, and respec accordingly. Once you are fully Ulduar 25 geared then you can play around abit.
-On the respecc, I don't want to bee too harsh as DKs are very flexible in terms of spec variety, but I would learn to live without DnD (use HB). Get out of morbidity, the two dual wielding talents, freeing up 9 points. Spend the 3 points from morbidity into Blood (Prob 2h and bladed armor, your choice as to how), the 3 points from ToT Spec into Blood of the North, and the points from Nerves of Cold Steel into Icy reach and (Deathchill,Hungering cold/Lichborne, I recommend Daethchill).
-Enchant chest and cloak with defense. With Stoneskin Gargolye runeforge, this will allow you to drop Seal of the Pantheon. Replace with a Brewfest stam trinket or Essence of Gossamer from H AN.
-Spend some time on enchanting, you are pretty close to ring enchants. Your JC is good too, but I realize that will take more time.
-Glyph of IBF is for PVP, go with something else (I suggest Frost Strike or Obliterate). if you are hit capped, you get more effect than the glyph provides, thereby wasting it.
-You also need minor glyphs (Raise Dead, Horn of Winter, and either pestilence or Blood Tap).
-There's a nice ring from first boss in HToC, you can pick it up while DPSing. Has 89 stamina, a blue socket (with a stamina bonus!), and lots of mitigation, but no defense. With defense enchants and stoneskin runeforge, staying def capped shouldn't be an issue. Otherwise, you can splurge and get a JC crafted tank ring.

For the fight itself,
-Save Antimagic Shell for P3
-Use IBF in P2, it is useless in P3
-Make sure you use all your cooldowns during Horde Champions. It will be back up for BK fight.
-If you need help in Confessor, Shaman with Tremor Totem is the most helpful thing you can do. Enlist an enh/ele shaman until you get the hang of it.

As for the Paladin healer, if you *really* feel s/he's the cause (which I don't), suggest the following:
1) Check that they have Holy Light Glyph, and have party stay as close as possible. Their splash heals from the glyph only goes 8 yards.
2) Check logs to see that they have good uptime on beacon and Sacred Shield on you. It's a LOT of absorbance on SS and Beacon is guaranteed way to keep tank alive unless they are hopelessly incompetent.
3) During the entire BK fight, Shadow Resist Aura should be up. Everything is shadow damage there (army of the dead explosions in P2, AoE damage in P3, and I think Confessor's summoned add as well). They would only be excused if you had an SPriest drop a Prayer of Shadow Protection. 130 resist on the party is significant mitigation for the whole party.
4) DPS should not be caught in corpse explosions in P2. If this happens, Pally should have lots of mana for P3, allowing them to chain cast Holy Light with impunity. If everyboyd stays within 8 yards, it triviliazes the encounter. If the paladin has no mana because DPS was dumb and ate the explosions, don't blame the healer.
5) For 2nd boss, check that you/healer/DPS aren't being blinded by Blinding Light. If it is happening, learn to turn around, it's just that simple.

Hope this Helps.

Insahnity
09-30-2009, 10:11 AM
Rubbish on the first boss my pally takes metric tons of damage, my warrior takes alot less damage it has so many stuns and silences and can disarm the warrior and rogue, can stop the shaman healing ever. The only advantage a pally has is it can cleanse itself on first boss but you find it hard to keep up with the rogues ability to stack the poison crap.

The whole first fight is about control or massive dps. You can take either tact unfortunately for pallys we have 1 stun and shield toss on long cd's so control is just about absorbing mega damage and cleansing. I took one of my warriors in here in heroic/naxx 10 gear and had no problem but you have to treat first fight like pvp. I don't play a DK but believe you have interrupts you need to be using them its not so much a tank but a pvp fight with 3 enemies approach it like that.

The kill order is fairly straight fwd shaman healer first to die other than that its the rogue or warrior because those 2 are the most lethal ... the healer first because he will hold them up. The hunter, mage are nuisance value you take the melee to them do not leave them at range.


When I Pally tank this, the main advantages are
-For Chapmpions they can shield toss. Insane snap aggro unmatched by any other tank, plus it silences shaman/mage. Between HoJ and Subsequent shield tosses, they can keep out a lot of heals, but DPS needs to help out, the shaman can heal more frequently than AS/HoJ can keep up with.
-For BK P2, Holy Wrath is pretty godly, HB is the only thing that can touch it.
-Shadow Resist Aura for BK Fight, and consecrate for ezmode P2 (coupled with a well timed Holy Wrath... blowing too early will leave ghouls running everywhere).

Back to DKs for OP
-For Champions, Strangulate and Mind Freeze shaman heals and mage when Shaman not present. Again, you can't keep him locked, you will need help from DPS to lock it down.
-Antimagic Shell until rogue is down to help with poisons, as well as BK P3
-Icebound Fortitude and Unbreakable Armor to cope with Warrior as well as BK P2.
-Well timed HB for P2 to gain aggro on all ghouls, followed by Blood Boil. You can also pop your own army too.

I'd agree fully with uglybbtoo on Kill order for Champions

Venom Rush
09-30-2009, 10:58 PM
Wow, thanks a lot Insanhity. A ton of useful info there, some of which I had no idea on (tactics).