PDA

View Full Version : Threat Issues.Tankadin



Kirrie
09-28-2009, 10:58 PM
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay (http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/detail/214432431#realtime)
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Draenor&n=Kirrie)

I've looked around for a bit, heard that block Value take a good percentage of the threat.
If you look at the WMO report, its a very statical threat.

Any ideas if this is a gearing or gemming problem or a spec problem?

I'm running the 6969 (as below) with the pre-pull Ss and Avengers shield to pull.
(Consec, Hotr, Hs, ShR, judge [wis usually] )

Also, i have alot of different gears, inc avoidance (102.4% w/ Hs), Tier 9 legs, shoulders, Teir 8.5 helm and chest, Teir 8 legs and hands.

Craptonnes of trinkets that i swap from gear to gear. So, a bit confused.. :\

The reason i am posting in here, is because i have specifically, Hunters, Warlocks, and Mages pulling very high aggro, which sometimes becomes so much of a struggle, that sometimes can cause aggro loss to them,

'I had aggro, when my feign AND shadowmeld was on CD, (He is also glyphed for FD)'
which is causing a giant drop in DPS raid wise.


thanks a lot!!

Long time watcher, first time poster,

P.S Project marmot videos, strategy and guides are a awesome help to everyone, keep up the great work guys!

Irat
09-29-2009, 12:10 AM
Are you having problems with survivability? or mana? If not your most effective change will be to move the 5 points out of divinity and 1 of the 2 out of Spiritual Attunement and use them to get further down the ret tree.

Your gear looks fine (not the same gem choices that i would make) though i would probably change your glyphs. DP is awesome, but SA and HotR are weak. Especially SA. Glpyh of Seal of Corruption is a massive amount of threat for us and is defiantly worth it.

Stats wise from Thecks latest work your stat priority for threat is:

Until Block soft cap: Strength > Block > Hit > Expertise
After Block Cap: Hit > Strength Expertise > Block

The SBV cap is a very real thing these days, espically in those pants so it is worth keeping an eye on.

Hope that helps.

Kirrie
09-29-2009, 12:17 AM
Are you having problems with survivability? or mana? If not your most effective change will be to move the 5 points out of divinity and 1 of the 2 out of Spiritual Attunement and use them to get further down the ret tree.

Your gear looks fine (not the same gem choices that i would make) though i would probably change your glyphs. DP is awesome, but SA and HotR are weak. Especially SA. Glpyh of Seal of Corruption is a massive amount of threat for us and is defiantly worth it.

Stats wise from Thecks latest work your stat priority for threat is:

Until Block soft cap: Strength > Block > Hit > Expertise
After Block Cap: Hit > Strength Expertise > Block

The SBV cap is a very real thing these days, espically in those pants so it is worth keeping an eye on.

Hope that helps.


Hi, Thanks heaps for that few questions on it though

What is the Block cap?
Seal of corruption on Alliance would be, seal of vengeance? Even without that i sit at 28 Exp, isnt this the Soft cap?
Could you show me some insight on your gemming ect?


Thanks so much again.

Skaggi
09-29-2009, 12:59 AM
1. Seal of vengeance is correct for alliance side.

2. Hand of salvation is your friend >> Hand of Salvation - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=1038) (and remember that ret and holy paladins have this too and can help out)

3. Formula: Enchant Weapon - Accuracy - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44496) is a nice threat enchant for weapons and frees up hit sockets for stamina

4. Try opening with Hotr instead of cons so that you have a nice threat lead from the first second on and don't cause early use of aggro-wipe-abillities. This is also a good training for the time you obtain the dodge libram.

5. Source: hunter in one guild raid
'I had aggro, when my feign AND shadowmeld was on CD, (He is also glyphed for FD)' >> Slap hunter >> shadowmeld doesn't reduce aggro >> Slap hunter again >> Misdirect tank!!! >> Slap rogue for good measures >> Tricks of the trade on tank... :D

I hope there was at least something useful in 'my 5 cents'... ;)

Cheers!
skaggi

Kirrie
09-29-2009, 02:10 AM
1. Seal of vengeance is correct for alliance side.

2. Hand of salvation is your friend >> Hand of Salvation - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=1038) (and remember that ret and holy paladins have this too and can help out)

3. Formula: Enchant Weapon - Accuracy - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=44496) is a nice threat enchant for weapons and frees up hit sockets for stamina

4. Try opening with Hotr instead of cons so that you have a nice threat lead from the first second on and don't cause early use of aggro-wipe-abillities. This is also a good training for the time you obtain the dodge libram.

5. Source: hunter in one guild raid
'I had aggro, when my feign AND shadowmeld was on CD, (He is also glyphed for FD)' >> Slap hunter >> shadowmeld doesn't reduce aggro >> Slap hunter again >> Misdirect tank!!! >> Slap rogue for good measures >> Tricks of the trade on tank... :D

I hope there was at least something useful in 'my 5 cents'... ;)

Cheers!
skaggi
Hey thanks again!

Usually my Salv is on CD... because i used it on the hunter... >.<
I'll remember to slap the hunter in the next raid :P, rogue already gets bitchslapped so ./shrug :P

I wasn't sure that Smeld dropped aggro or not.

I have enchanted my current wepon to the potency wepon (Much to my banks discrase :P)

Thanks.. will try this out tomrrow when servers are back up and my saves are gone.

Mert
09-29-2009, 02:24 AM
As mentioned, there's really no reason a Hunter should be pulling off you as he should be Misdirecting to you at every available opportunity. As for Mages, tell them to hold off on blowing their Mirrors until you see them creeping up on you then, as they're getting toward the 103%ish mark, tell them to pop Mirrors and open up, they'll love it. As for Warlocks, they're a pesky bunch and your only real way is to yell at them to watch their threat or Shatter if needs be.

Spec-wise, you'll get more threat taking points out of Conviction and putting them into Crusade so if you're going to go down to the Crusade tier anyway you're probably best off filling it out. I personally pick up Vindication as well since it now acts as an automatic Improved Demo Shout - does nothing for your threat but helps your survivability a lot. EDIT: In terms of the split I go {2/2 Persuit of Justice; 1/5 Conviction; 2/2 Vindication; 3/3 Crusade}.

You'll also get a bunch of threat from Glyph of Seal of Vengeance - even after the soft cap it's your best threat glyph.

Is it on certain fights you're experiencing a problem though or just generally? It's fairly typical for Warlocks and Mages to be right up your ass on Vezax or Hodir Hard, for example and in these fights getting a Hand of Salvation up on them is fantastic (though for range purposes you may need a Holy or Ret Paladin to do this for you).

Finally, if all else fails, Darkmoon Card: Greatness or the Ret Triumph Libram will give you a bunch more threat. Shouldn't be necessary, of course, but it can be nice to have one of them for Hodir Hard etc if you find you are struggling to keep on top of the DPS.

Zothor
09-29-2009, 12:12 PM
Ok, bear with me because I'm something of a numbers freak, a threatwhore, and an asshole, but it sounds like that's what you could use :P

First off, do everything Mert just said: Spec 3/3 crusade, spec Vindication, glyph SoV. Those 3 really aren't optional in your current build - crusade is the best threat talent available to you if you're doing TOC, Vindication is too good a tanking talent to skip, and SoV is an unbelievably powerful threat glyph with a nice bit of avoidance attached to it (More expertise = less parryhasting = significanrtly less damage taken. thank you Theck for the math). Personally IMO if you're threatcapping people, give up Pursuit of Justice for 2 more points in Conviction. I know, I know, i <3 the speed too. Get tuskarr's vitality to boots if you really need run speed, but nothing in TOC seems to require it.

Second: no more dodge gems! eww! bad! Paladins are allllllll about agi in red slots these days. Again with kudos to the Theckerson and the retarded amount of time he spends on his math, agi is damn near as good as dodge rating for overall reduction (through its contributions to dodge and armor) but also gives you EH (armor) to help you when you're stunned, and crit rating for THREAT.

Your enchants and gems are WAY jacked up right now. 275 to chest enchant is really poor value on the slot when you have ANY defense gems left, because you can get 22 defense there (whereas you're getting 20 or less in a socket), and then put 30 stam in the socket instead. 30 stam = well over 350 Hp for a paladin after talents and sanc. So you just gained health AND defense by trading things around. That goes TRIPLY for your shield - I know you probably thought the titanium plating was ideal because your'e worried about threat, but it's terrible value to the slot. Grab 20 defense and get better gemming. Same goes for the cloak - agi is better overall survivability and gives you a touch of threat, but your'e giving up defense. Lose the defense gems first and foremost. If you REALLY want to match a yellow socket like in your helm or boots (both good stam bonuses for the slot), go with Stam/Defense or Stam/Hit. Hit's a great threat stat. As for those red sockets, if you really want to give yourself breathing room, don't be afraid to gem them Stam/Strength, but I don't thin kyou should need to if you tune up your gear and spec a little tighter.

Pulling wise, when snapthreat got nerfed with the SoV/SotR changes in 3.2, I macroed Avenger's Shield to Avenging Wrath. I pull... probably 8 out of 10 times with wingshield and never look back. I'm kind of lazy so I don't use Exorcism enough to pull, but Hand of Reckoning followed by my wingshield macro is a really nice chunk of snap aggro before bosses even GET to me. The moment they do, HAMMER TO THE FACE.

You see where you're putting holy shield up before you hammer him? Holy shield before you pull - pull with reck/avenger's - and then hammer, JUDGEMENT, shieldslam. You just made an offensive threat move out of a GCD that was being used for holy shield, and you just gave your DPS some breathing room. Dropping con while a boss is pulling in is great, but don't use it as on offensive move early because it just takes too long for the ticking threat to catch up while DPS are often blowing their load too fast.

Oh. Biggest thing. Put hunters, warlocks, ANYONE who has a viable way of dealing with it on permanent taunt/salv probation. While I respect that you want to take accountability and be better, you are not always the problem. If you have a hunter, you should ALWAYS be getting a misdirect on every pull. There's no excuse. Hunters have the best aggro drop in the game - never waste a salv on them. Same goes for warlocks, who have a long cooldown but the threatdrop is stunning. I simply do not salv my warlock unless I've seen that he already blew soulshatter. Make DPS do their part.

Finally, probably the fastest and easiest change for you to make is your libram. Carry both. Use the 200 str ret libram for threat sensitive fights. It rocks.

Kirrie
09-29-2009, 09:31 PM
Ok, bear with me because I'm something of a numbers freak, a threatwhore, and an asshole, but it sounds like that's what you could use :P
YEPP!!!! :D


First off, do everything Mert just said: Spec 3/3 crusade, spec Vindication, glyph SoV. Those 3 really aren't optional in your current build - crusade is the best threat talent available to you if you're doing TOC, Vindication is too good a tanking talent to skip, and SoV is an unbelievably powerful threat glyph with a nice bit of avoidance attached to it (More expertise = less parryhasting = significanrtly less damage taken

Okay, So i've filled out Vindication, and Crusade. Though, i dont really see the point in Vindication apart from a PvP perspective because i always though bosses we're immune from that?
Anyway. obviously I'm wrong :P


Your enchants and gems are WAY jacked up right now. 275 to chest enchant is really poor value on the slot when you have ANY defense gems left, because you can get 22 defense there (whereas you're getting 20 or less in a socket), and then put 30 stam in the socket instead. 30 stam = well over 350 Hp for a paladin after talents and sanc. So you just gained health AND defense by trading things around. That goes TRIPLY for your shield - I know you probably thought the titanium plating was ideal because your'e worried about threat, but it's terrible value to the slot. Grab 20 defense and get better gemming. Same goes for the cloak - agi is better overall survivability and gives you a touch of threat, but your'e giving up defense. Lose the defense gems first and foremost. If you REALLY want to match a yellow socket like in your helm or boots (both good stam bonuses for the slot), go with Stam/Defense or Stam/Hit. Hit's a great threat stat. As for those red sockets, if you really want to give yourself breathing room, don't be afraid to gem them Stam/Strength, but I don't thin kyou should need to if you tune up your gear and spec a little tighter.

That is extremely helpful as I've been sitting here wondering wth to put into those red sockets... Agi, i wish the Agi/Stam was Yellow aswell ;( lol.

After all that, My toons bank account wants to punch you in the face. But screw it. I also picked up a triumph vender ring as i don't really like the idea of a 200 str ret libram, but I'll see later tonight when we start raiding 25voa/ulduar.


Can you check everything is right (I ran out of badges on to get the gem in my feet, i still dunno what i should put in there.. If you could give me a insight, would love the bonus. lol

Thanks so much though for your help so far!!!!

Insahnity
09-29-2009, 10:07 PM
Rotation is something you should also pay attention to. As mentioned before, Consecratre is kind of weak move that further down on the rotation when doing boss fights (which should be where you have threat issues). Also, pulling with exorcism is recommended as you usually have time to follow up with a shield shortly therefter. It makes a difference. I would

Exorcise->Shield->Judge (especially since you have Heart of the Crusader)->HotR->Consecrate->SotR-> etc.

Upping your hit is not a bad idea. You can still change boots from def/stam to hit/stam at least, and consider 20 hit to gloves if necessary. Aim for 264 hit. Expertise is OK. As unorthodox as this sounds, you can also look at Sons of Hodir DPS shoulder enchant.

Irat
09-29-2009, 11:10 PM
Though, i dont really see the point in Vindication apart from a PvP perspective because i always though bosses we're immune from that?

The old form of Vindication was defiantly not worth taking as a tank. The new version however is a massive amount of mitigation. I can't find the math atm but i have a feeling that it is in the region of 20%

A quick not on my views of gemming. If a socket bonus is less then +9stam it really isn’t worth chasing imo. Take for example your pants, you have put a 10 hit/15 Stam and a 10 agil / 15stam in order to match a +6 stam socket bonus. So from those pant you have:
36stam
10hit
10agil

if you had gemmed for pure stam you would have 60stam in them. So basically you need to way up the cost of 24stam Vs 10hit + 10agility. Obliviously there will be cases when the later is better but most of the time Stam is king.


I also picked up a triumph vender ring as i don't really like the idea of a 200 str ret libram, but I'll see later tonight when we start raiding 25voa/ulduar.

This really is personal opinion but to me the libram is a threat slot. My first triumph badge purchase will be the str libram, i don't know if i will even pick up the dodge one.

Mert
09-30-2009, 03:16 AM
Vindication certainly does work on bosses in its new form. In terms of the mitigation it applies, it scales differently depending on a boss' specials - on a hard-hitting physical fight like XT-002 you might be looking at around 15-20% mitigation. Against Thorim's Unbalancing Strike, you could be looking at nearer 50-60%! Definitely worth taking.

As for gems, I'm not personally a big fan of gemming for Hit or Expertise but if you're having threat issues it could be worthwhile I guess. As Irat mentions, going only for socket bonuses of +9 Stam or higher is probably the way forward. I put Def/Stam in yellows, Agi/Stam in reds and Stam in blues if there's a favourable socket bonus and straight Stam if there isn't.

Kirrie
09-30-2009, 08:37 AM
hm, seems i dont ahve a reset answer button, but aw well

Thanks so much for your help guys
after resetting my gears, enchants and 2 repecs.
WoW Meter Online - Combatlog Replay (http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/detail/219687157#realtime)


Soooooo much better!!!!! (And to top it off, i got my Conq hands:D)

Thanks soooo much guys..!!!