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Norik
09-28-2009, 05:52 AM
Last night in ToC (25) Im tanking Anub.
Cruising along doing just fine kinda in my "ok this is boring" mode as this is not a very technical tank encounter.
Im watching my timers and all and notice that my debuff of thunder clap is not showing up on Anub.
So I hit it again and still no debuff, hit again and it finally shows.
Just wondering is this my mod screwing up or can Thunder Clap miss?
I cant recall it ever failing in my tanking history so I am leaning towards my mod.
Granted with all my new gear I am way below hit cap at the moment, but I didnt think this would effect that.

Synapse
09-28-2009, 05:53 AM
It can miss, always could. I think it's on spell hit.

orcstar
09-28-2009, 05:55 AM
Yes, thunderclap can miss.
But there are also debuffs possibly overwriting your thunderclap.

One I think I have tracked down is the death knight frost fever with improved dehaste: it knocks of thunderclap if there is less time left on your thunderclap then the duration off frost fever.

Norik
09-28-2009, 06:34 AM
Thanks for the replies guys. I just realized I put this question in the wrong area of this site. Could a mod please delete or move please?
Promise not to post again before I have all my morning coffee in me.

Airowird
09-28-2009, 09:40 AM
Just to clarify: TC uses spellmiss (17% on a boss) as well as spell crit (chance and modifier). Spells that can remove TC now are Judgements of the Just from Paladins, Frost Fever with Imp Icy Touch and Infected Wounds from Druids. Especially the last 2 can be applied rather frequently, so if your TC runs out early, it's them.

Muffin Man
09-28-2009, 01:31 PM
And because one day I found myself with a spell damage trinket I can confirm that +spell power does not effect TC damage.

drae
09-28-2009, 02:04 PM
Ya TC scales off AP, not SP.

Thunderclap can miss. AFAIK the 8% melee hit cap is sufficient.

Druids, paladins, and DK's can overwrite our TC (even improved).

Demo Shout works much the same way. It can be definitely be overwritten by Paladins, possibly druids.

Airowird
09-28-2009, 02:30 PM
Thunderclap can miss. AFAIK the 8% melee hit cap is sufficient.

Druids, paladins, and DK's can overwrite our TC (even improved).

Demo Shout works much the same way. It can be definitely be overwritten by Paladins, possibly druids.
Thunderclap uses 17% miss last time I tested it, but that's been a while, so if you've done more recent tests, feel free to share your data with me. But with 8% melee (= 10% spell) and a 3% spell hit debuff you get pretty close. If it is still 17% miss, you would 'only' need 10.4% melee hit.

Also, you can overwrite a Paladins effect with Thunderclap, because it lasts longer. The Druid & DK spells have extra effects, so they always stay on.

And finally: Demo Shout rules are simply:
1) if current effect is smaller, overwrite it
2) if current effect is equal, but shorter duration, overwrite it
3) else; ignore aplication of current demo shout/roar/vindication

drae
09-28-2009, 04:48 PM
I'm not surprised it works on spell hit; I was not positive the number it rolled against, just that hit rating affected the application of TC.

Ya we can always overwrite the paladins slow effect with TC, but correct me if I'm wrong, they can write over ours once the TC debuff ticks down past their debuff's (I forget the name) maximum duration. I notice this a lot on Gormok, I think my TC's worn off, but someone else just overwrote it.

Thanks for the clarification Wartotem :)

Kilax
09-28-2009, 05:24 PM
Just to clarify: TC uses spellmiss (17% on a boss) as well as spell crit (chance and modifier).

Just did some target dummie testing for this. I always thought it was affected by melee hit... ~8% Melee hit and ~10% Spell hit, with no TC misses. Dropped it down to ~6% Melee hit (not sure what the spell hit was) with no TC misses.

Will do further tests when I'm done with dinner. :D But since it uses both AP instead of SP and Melee Crit instead of Spell Crit (I don't understand how you think it uses Spell Crit, I can get 25% - 30% crit chance with TC with 0% tooltip Spell Crit), I will be very surprised if it turns out to use Spell Hit instead of Melee Hit.

jere
09-28-2009, 07:01 PM
You can tell that it uses spell crit by the amount of damage it does when it crits (1.5x rather than 2.0x like melee crit)

Airowird
09-29-2009, 01:52 AM
Just did some target dummie testing for this. I always thought it was affected by melee hit... ~8% Melee hit and ~10% Spell hit, with no TC misses. Dropped it down to ~6% Melee hit (not sure what the spell hit was) with no TC misses.

Will do further tests when I'm done with dinner. :D But since it uses both AP instead of SP and Melee Crit instead of Spell Crit (I don't understand how you think it uses Spell Crit, I can get 25% - 30% crit chance with TC with 0% tooltip Spell Crit), I will be very surprised if it turns out to use Spell Hit instead of Melee Hit.
15% from Incite + 5% boomkin + 5% crit debuff on target. That's 25% chance already right there.

I'm interested to know what target dummy yiou used and how much spell hit you had exactly (it's 1.25x melee hit btw)

Kilax
09-29-2009, 12:25 PM
Although I'm confused as to why, it does still use Spell Hit and Spell Crit.

8.08% Melee Hit / 10.10% Spell Hit - 100 TC casts (Heroic Target Dummy in SW)

78% - Hit
16% - Critical Strike
6% - Miss

Those numbers seem to match up pretty well with the 17% Spell Miss and the 15% Critical Strike chance from Incite.