View Full Version : Basic DK Stats / Talent Check
09-25-2009, 10:21 PM
First off, I want to thank everyone here for contributing all of the information I've been reading for ages. It's been extremely helpful and I do appreciate it.
I'm a fresh 80 (as in at the time of the post I hit 80 about 15 minutes ago). I'm hoping at the time of this post I've logged out in my tank gear, so you can get an accurate view of my armory.
The minimum defense requirement is what I was shooting for first, and I've got more defense than I really anticipated. I plan on trying to get into some heroics, or other areas available to me to solidify my defense, so I can work on adding some threat stats to my basic tank set. My concern is that I would like to run the heroics with some guild mates of mine, and most of them are already on raid teams. That means most of the DPS has at least a few pieces of epic gear, and are around the 2k DPS type. At a glance is it going to be possible for me to hold threat against these guys? In regular instances I've done well as a 76-78 against some well geared players, but didn't have a damage meter installed then, but any heroic experience (including BC) is lacking. I'm not entirely sure what to expect.
I'm less concerned about single target thread, as that's what my Blood spec is more geared toward, but the trash and other stuff may just require more work. If I am perhaps requested to raid tank I think at the most I'd be best suited for off-tanking when necessary, but would also like to know what you think I would be capable of.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
09-25-2009, 10:54 PM
The thing about your tanking that is going to be a big problem is your hp. 18k is a lil low for a tank. If you want my honest opinion try to get into some heroics as a dps and ask if you can roll on dps gear as an offset. There are a lot of threads here that can help you gear up, I think they are in the guide section of the forums.
The reason i wouldnt tank right now is because threat wont be a problem if your dead and 18k health is a lil low. I would try out a normal run of hol and try to pick up a def trink so you can replace some of the pure def gear with some pieces that might have a lil lower def but have more stam. A few runs of reg toc would gear you up quite a lot for both dps and tank. There are a lot of quality gears in reg toc and you might ask a few guildmates to carry you through some h toc and try to get a new weapon.
But if you do try tanking your threat shouldnt be to big of deal. 2k dps cant really be pulling that much threat and tbh you should be able to keep up.
Good luck on tanking and congratz on 80
09-26-2009, 07:33 AM
Yeah, stamina is a big concern. I was hoping buffs may take care of some of that. I've got a few pieces of gear on standby already for when I get more defense rating. Stuff like The Crusader's Resolution, Special Issue Legplates, and a few others.
Working on some rep too, for the enchants in the like. That's something I need to do, because the extra 68 rating or so would at least allow me to use my De-Raged Waraxe. I'll go over the threads again and see what's available to me. I've mostly been using Cider's Easy 540 Defense Guide.
Maybe I'll also get lucky and that trinket from the Brewfest daily with 140 stam will drop. :)
Thanks for the reply.
EDIT: How much HP should I shoot for before really attempting Heroics?
09-27-2009, 05:51 PM
First, gratz on hitting 80!
18.5k Health is viable for tanking heroics with 2k DPS across the board (Not from the tank, but from the three people who didn't wanna pick a real job) and a decent healer. I know this from experience. If you use your cooldowns, there's no reason you can't tank a heroic. I'd recommend sticking to easy stuff though, such as H UK/Nexus/DTK until you get all the gear you can out of them, or just run regular totc until you're as close to a grape as possible. Girdle of the Pallid Knight, Boots of Heartfelt Repentance, and Helm of the blahblahtankthing are all going to be great upgrades. With 21k (Your armory updated again) you should be EASILY getting through H DTK, and the 2h mace that drops from The Prophet is pure win for both stats and price (Repair bill < Titansteel Destroyer), and the fact that you get to bash things with a dead troll on a stick. Dead greenskins is pro :) Anyway, hit up Argent Crusade and Sons of Hodir for rep reward enchants (Helm and shoulder, respectively) and get rid of the tempered saronite/daunting stuff, and you'll be in excellent shape to get into Naxx and start bangin with the big boys.
PS: Dks feel a bit squishy at fresh-80, but it goes away pretty quick.
09-27-2009, 05:56 PM
A huge thing that might help is get into a group that will farm reg toc. Get all the tanking gear out of there as possible than you should be set to go after some of the harder heroics. Until you can get your rep up with hodir there is a really good encahant available for 10k honor that has stam/resil which will help your hp a lil. Also try to get the blue stam/agi leg enchant. Since you should be keeping those pants for a lil bit.
09-27-2009, 11:14 PM
Despite the fact that I myself just referenced it, I kinda dislike the idea of farming totc. Easy epics for casuals is fine, but it allows people to skip content, and thus experience that could prove invaluable later. I used to see people pug 10man Ulduar and farm Flame Leviathan as often as the lockout allowed to get gear, but now it seems Blizz wants EVERYONE raiding as soon as they hit 80, without picking up the tools of the trade, so to speak. For accomplished, veteran tank players that just hit 80 on an alt, cool. Get your free epics, and get to work! For new tanks such as the OP, that's gonna backfire. I honestly hope it doesn't, but unless dude stole Cider's toon and it's unreasonable 62% combined avoidance, he's gonna have to learn the finesse part of the job. Other than the first sentence (And my own reference, unfortunately) Myrddraak's post is 99% accurate. Go for the purple leg enchant. Most pugs think gearscore and HP determine ability, and the stats are better anyway. ;)
09-28-2009, 11:31 AM
I've made a few upgrades over the past couple of days, so I've removed the stats from the original post. (Might want to re-check the armory.) Basically, I've got more expertise and stamina now. I'm sitting at 542 defense, but my health is still just over 23k in frost presence. I'm trying to finish my Wyrmrest Accord and Argent Crusade rep grind so I can get a few upgrades there. Right now it's just a race to solidify my defense rating so I can afford more stamina on gear. Enchants are kind of an issue with me - I'm trying to save up for my epic flying skill, but I'll see what I can do. AH is pretty steep on my server.
I've only tanked one heroic since 80, and that was HoS. It was surprisingly easy considering AoE tanking is the big weakness in my spec, but I did have a great healer for the run, too.
I've never really felt squishy at 80 so far, and I'm hoping it stays that way! I'm hoping to get a few more heroics in, and try maybe DPS'ing in a ToC5 group to get another drop. I walked away with tank leggings and DPS chest the first time I did.
Thanks for the responses!
09-28-2009, 02:28 PM
My rule of thumb is def capped and 20k unbuffed is good to go for entry level heroics with a healer that pays attention. With 542 and 20k+ unbuffed health you're good to go for most things, though you will occasionally run into pugs that refuse to run 5 mans with anything less than a ToC25 raid tank with 35k health, it's not necessary. If you have a friendly non-fail healer you may as well just heroic farm til you have everything you need. (heck 542 def and 23k health is probably enough to at least OT Naxx/OS10 if not MT, though good luck finding folks who still run those instances)
As far as the def cap goes, you'll be fighting on a pretty permanent basis, more so if you're like me and prefer Swordshattering over Stoneskin Gargoyle. The move from heroics and blues to epics is especially harsh as there's a steep dropoff in defense on gear for some reason, but SSG and Sigil of the Unfaltering Knight go a long way to bridging that temporary gap.
When looking for items to chase, I'd suggest these two wowhead searches:
High level blues (including easy to get quest rewards, if you order by source): Armor - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?items=4&filter=qu=3;minle=170;cr=42;crs=1;crv=0)
Entry level epics (Heroics, Naxx/OS10, Vendors, Crafted, and Reg ToC5, unfortunately not HToC5): Armor - Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?items=4&filter=qu=4;minle=170;maxle=200;minrl=80;cr=42;crs =1;crv=0)
For gear priorities, focus on health while maintaining the def cap. In general there's very few times you should prioritize threat stats over survivability stats, especially as a blood dk (you might worry about more if you were dw frost tanking with tanking 1hs, but 2h dk tanks get a good baseline of threat stats from their weapon, so you shouldn't stress much about getting tons on your armor). This is especially true if the dps you're running with is in the 2k region (if you'd said 4-5k that might be a different story, but you should be able to handle and scale with 2k dps if you're smart and attentive in pulls).
09-28-2009, 03:34 PM
I'm feeling more and more confident Tanking as a whole. I'm going to see if I can get in some more Heroics tonight, and maybe DPS for ToC5. I think I've got my rotations down pretty well, and really think that I've saved some groups in some regular instances. (For instance, in regular HoL the rest of my PUG group wiped on Loken for not moving out of the Lightning Nova - after the group specifically asked if we should run or stack. This happened when he was at 20-25%, and I was still able to down him with some cooldown management. Those right now are the experiences I'm looking for.
Trash and everything else hasn't been a problem for me, though I was really concerned that it would be. I didn't get to play much for awhile, and the pace of instancing has really changed. But even as my Blood Spec, AoE tanking on 4-5 mobs hasn't been a problem either. I'll open with IT - PS - BB - DnD - Pestillence, and have no problems keeping things stuck to me. Heroic Halls of Stone was a challenge this way, but there were no deaths, and minimal running around. (I learned halfway through the encounter to reserve Death Grip for later.)
But currently on my gear agenda I'm going to be shooting for the Chest and Feet from Wyrmrest, maybe the Mace and Head Enchant from Argent Crusade, and following up with the Bracers that drop in CoS. I'll feel comfortable then, I believe. If I happen to get some other pieces from ToC5 on the way, I'll be a happy camper.
I think my questions have been pretty much answered, but I really don't know whom to mark as "best answer." It's all pretty good.
09-30-2009, 07:07 AM
Sorry to bump this, but it seemed like a better idea than making another thread, and really goes back to the above conversations anyway...
I tanked Regular ToC for the first time yesterday. I ran it 4 times. The first three runs went great. I really couldn't believe how easy it was. Argent Confessor Paletress was a pain in the butt, but everything still went smoothly.
Queue up run 4. I didn't armory these guys, but I'm 99% sure they way out geared me in comparison. Recount showed two of the DPS at 3.4k-3.7k respectively, even the healer had comparable DPS to me (not really sure how that happened). We wiped 4 times on the Grand Champions. Aggro was jumping so bad I couldn't even tell if they were focus firing the same mob. It seemed my threat really wasn't keeping up with the DPS. Dark Command and Death Grip were constantly on cooldown. I kept diseases up and used Blood Boil every bit that I could, but really to no avail - they still just kept jumping everywhere. It was probably the most chaotic experience I've ever encountered as a tank.
I want to assume this was simply a gear level issue, considering how smooth the first three runs went with the same tactics, but it really does have me considering re-speccing to something with a bit more AoE threat. It's not too big a deal, but I have tried using Frost and Unholy, and it's simply not as enjoyable to me.
Any comments and advice on the matter would be helpful.
EDIT: Just noticed I logged out with my Piccolo of the Flaming Fire equipped. Seal of the Pantheon is usually in it's place, which has me over 540 defense.
09-30-2009, 08:13 AM
Well, I wouldn't stress too much since you've successfully done it 3 times, so obviously it's within your ability.
Off the top of my head, the things that may have gone wrong are:
Initial Aggro - For whatever reason initial aggro is funky on faction champs. I've yet to figure out what it is exactly that they do, but I've constantly seen strange things happen immediately after the dismount (watched them run straight out of D&D with no aggro gained, etc.). So people who go balls-out right away often get themselves a champion to dance with.
Split DPS - On my dps/healer toons I've seen this with non-raid geared tanks. The single target threat is there, and aoe threat for AoE packs is there, but aoe threat for single target dps isn't. In a non-heroic run with geared folks they may have just started firing away at the first mob they found, if that isn't the mob you're running the main section of your threat rotation on, someone's probably going to pull, and it's generally a vicious cycle from then on (time spent getting back loose mobs is non-optimal threat which puts you behind on other mobs, which lets them loose, which...etc.). Ideally, your dps would assist train one mob at a time, you'd run you're single target+some aoe threat rotation on that mob and only have to hold the other two over healer aggro.
I suspect the latter is probably the cause of your problem given you're thinking about picking up more AoE threat. Faction champs shouldn't (or at least doesn't need to) be an AoE fight, Pestilence+HS cleaves should be enough to keep the non-targeted off the healer, and the non-targeted champs should only be taking cleave type damage from the dps. DPS's job is as much to pay attention to their aggro as it is to their dps. As a tank if you can hold single target aggro over single target dps, and AoE aggro on packs over blizzard type aoe then you're good to go. Holding AoE aggro while 3 dps each run their single target rotation on a different mob isn't part of your job description. That's failure on the part of dps that can't find their assist button.
Edited to add: To more specifically address your question of respecing, I wouldn't if you don't enjoy the playstyle. Maybe once upon a time before Blood got more aoe tanking tools it might have been necessary, but Blood tools should be sufficient these days. With the caveat that Frost or Unholy tanking might require less work to achieve similar results (e.g. as a frost tank I can be braindead and run my AoE threat rotation of a single target with good results relying on HB/diseases/BB to do my job, getting similar results on an aoe pack as blood is probably going to require more tab targeting to spread rune strikes/HS around the pack)
09-30-2009, 08:22 AM
I'm going to have to agree with the Split DPS statement. It makes much more sense having someone else write it. Which is really just kind of annoying, because this is the one place that I'll actually feel the need to mark things. You're absolutely correct though - even with the nerf to the second target with HS, I'm still not having issues anywhere else. Thanks again.