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Proculeius
09-24-2009, 01:54 AM
I dont understand why everyone are freaks about purely going for stam. Every tank i see and every person that looks for tanks only care about stam. Why not go for avoidence, even though there are diminishing returns

squats
09-24-2009, 02:04 AM
dodge/stam gems are fine if the socket bonus is +6 stam or more.
its when people gem parry/stam that is the issue.

because of diminishing returns if you gem for nothing other then avoidance the gear upgrades become.. less then stellar, so you have less stam.. and little to no extra avoidance then other tanks.

also its pretty trendy that big hits are magical, and no matter how much avoidance you have.. it doesnt help against spell damage

orcstar
09-24-2009, 02:11 AM
I dont understand why everyone are freaks about purely going for stam. Every tank i see and every person that looks for tanks only care about stam. Why not go for avoidence, even though there are diminishing returns
I'm not a freak, it's a sensible choice: If you're progress raiding, the encounters to beat at this moment have large unavoidable damage. Moments where your avoidance does nothing. Stamina helps keep you alive in those places.

Mačl
09-24-2009, 02:36 AM
Stam has become THE most important stat for a tank if you have gone to the lower echelons of Ulduar.
Bosses down there hit like a truck so the healers have to keep spamming heals on you wether you need them or not. I'm talking about two shotting a tank. Within 2 seconds. This doesn't leave too much reaction time.
Aaaand ther is magical damage and physical dots and other stuff that can't be avoided or mitigated by armor or blocking.
Sitting at 55%+ mitigation is fine as long as you maintain over 35k life unbuffed. That should put you over 40k life buffed which still won't let you survive two hits but leaves a nice lead for the healers to get you above 30k life within a second.
Avoid is only there to let them catch up.

I'll give you a couple of figures for Onyxia/10(curtesy of WoWWiki). Scale that for 25 mans and ToC25/h:


Onyxia melees for about 12-15,000 on plate. Onyxia is tauntable.


http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/thumb/0/0e/Spell_Fire_Fire.png/32px-Spell_Fire_Fire.png (http://www.wowwiki.com/File:Spell_Fire_Fire.png) Flame Breath (http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Special:Outbound&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wowhead.com%2F%3Fspell%3D18435) — Two second cast, 45 yard frontal cone. About 20,000 damage unresisted.
http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/thumb/d/d0/Ability_Warrior_Cleave.png/32px-Ability_Warrior_Cleave.png (http://www.wowwiki.com/File:Ability_Warrior_Cleave.png) Cleave (http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Special:Outbound&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wowhead.com%2F%3Fspell%3D19983) — 100% Weapon damage cleave in her frontal arc. Cast often.
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/thumb/4/48/INV_Misc_MonsterScales_14.png/32px-INV_Misc_MonsterScales_14.png (http://www.wowwiki.com/File:INV_Misc_MonsterScales_14.png) Wing Buffet (http://www.wowwiki.com/index.php?title=Special:Outbound&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.wowhead.com%2F%3Fspell%3D18500) — ~15,000 physical damage in a 20 yard frontal cone. Ignores armour.

Onyxia does her best to keep healers from healing in phase 3. You'd be surprised how often you will have to survive with minimal heal due to various reasons.

Knowing that take a look at Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=49118;47949)
Sucks, doesn't it?

Going stam heavy for heroics and Naxx is ridiculous, tho.

adizs
09-24-2009, 03:03 AM
I am starting to get a fair amount of unbuffed HP right now, I wouldnt dream of gemming avoidance for the two the reasons mentioned above and for the fact that mana is not an issue for healers in the game right now.

orcstar
09-24-2009, 03:12 AM
Knowing that take a look at Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=49118;47949)
Sucks, doesn't it?Woooaaaa wait a second here. I think Fervor of the Frostborn - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47949) is an incredibly strong trinket and when used at the right moments outperforms the brewfest stamina trinket. You can get 7k extra armor in times when you most need it. Don't forget most damage is predictable and especially with big hits, the extra armor will prevent more damage then the extra stamina.

Currently raidbuffed I have about 31k armor: 70.14% physical damage reduction. With 7k more armor I would be at 38k armor: 73.97% physical damage reduction.

Well now, when would I die? Scary are the impale hits from Gormok which can go over 30k, they are also easy to predict. If I would get hit for 30k without the trinket, it would be about 26 with the trinket and 5 stacks: the on use of the trinket helps me stay alive more then a 170 stamina trinket would have.

Worldie
09-24-2009, 03:45 AM
Too bad that even if it saves you once, after the effects run out you will be gibbed the next time since it aint up.

Relying on a clicky or a proc is bad. Flat stamina wins on everything. If you really want armor, the Triumph trinket is a OK choice.

KnThrak
09-24-2009, 03:58 AM
Well he got a point in that it essentially gives you another emergency timer. The relative value depends largely on the fight you're looking at, so overrating it is bad ofc. But for itself this is a powerful thing, a bit like a controllable Black Heart (though there's better ones for that).

Avoidance clickies are so/so. Mitigation/HP clickies can be powerful so they're big enough, since they give you another shot at surviving something which would otherwise kill you.
It's usually safe to assume that so your healers aren't asleep, the "normal" damage in a fight is healable. It's the stacked specials or bad moments which kills you, anyways.

Mačl
09-24-2009, 04:12 AM
Yep, I also don't like clicky trinkets. It's a matter of relyability. Stuff like this is either never used or on cooldown.

Avoid trinkets are teh joke. Esp trinkets that give you 300 avoid. For kicks I used one while letting tank points do its math and I have to say, I was quite a bit underwhelmed.

Procs are never there when you need them. If they last long enough and have a nice mitigation effect then they might save you like shield block. But you can't plan for them in most cases.

I would also rather pick up the badge trinket for mitigation.

And if you say you are sitting at 31k armor raidbuffed then I guess your health has already reached the point where you survive a direct unblocked hit with enough life so the healers spam you back up in the alotted time.

Mitigation is king yes, but even Onyxia has one attack that's not mitigated whatsoever and nobody bothers with fire resists on top of an aura so I'd say her flame stuff also has a high chance to reach you inmitigatedly.

A mitigation on use trinket has its uses, but it is a specific tool for a specific job and we are talking about the general situation.

Being a healer is no fun atm.

orcstar
09-24-2009, 05:54 AM
Avoid trinkets are teh joke. Esp trinkets that give you 300 avoid. For kicks I used one while letting tank points do its math and I have to say, I was quite a bit underwhelmed.Avoidance clickies can be very powerfull: in situations where strings of hits are bad that's where you use them: it often helps me to get rid of kologarns stacking debuff and the stacking debuff of auriaya's cats.

Use the right tool for the right job, there is no "best tankset" for all bosses. Every boss needs a new decission on what works best.
(ofcourse you can conquer all in one set if you outgear things)

robbon
09-24-2009, 06:00 AM
dodge doesnt do much against magic damage, neither does parry.

Stam enables you to stomach the punch and avoidance enables you to keep the punches seperated imo.

vine
09-24-2009, 06:07 AM
Being a healer is no fun atm.
Says who? I have a ball whether I'm tanking or healing. It's the dps role that sends me to sleep.

Mačl
09-24-2009, 06:18 AM
...all my DPSers never reached max level.

When I say healing is no fun ATM it comes from having to be on the edge, spamming heals but keeping the big nukes on CD handy for whenever they are necessary.
It is fun, but very exhausting.

Mind you, I'm not talking about Naxx.

Proculeius
09-24-2009, 12:08 PM
i dont see it, time and time again ive seen "Main tainks" who stack stam like theres no other stat get punted from stuns because they take alot of unvoidable damage but when they come out of the stun they get hit again cuz of lack of avoidence where i tend to dodge/parry or block majority of it. Also i tend to stack up a bit of defense(elixir of def instead of stoneblood and a few sockets and enchants instead of stam for enchants) esp for fights like ice howl and anub where they stun often because of the increased chance to be missed really help alot and ive seen it save me countless times when healers are dead or whatever may be the case and even i get hit like a truck with the stun the odds of me not dodging/parrying/being missed or blocking a good chunk of damage are very small, i have never seen myself not dodge or parry after being stunned.

as far as magic being a paladin i dont worry about it much since i have alot of reduced to magical damage and if is alot of damage say like a casted spell i can time a holy light with theirs to reduce the blow to me.

Astemus
09-24-2009, 12:26 PM
I did a pug VoA25 the other day after getting the 2nd brewfest trinket, and the other tank, a warrior in gear about the same as mine, was laughing at me for stacking so much stamina. Then I looked at his health, it was 10k less than mine. And after he pulled the first mob, I pulled agro almost immediately and for the rest of the run he couldnt hold the mobs off me.

I think that many people may say that stam stacking is stupid, go for more avoidance or gem for a balance. But in my opinion, you lose more than you gain. There are few fights where a stam heavy tank will be less ideal than an avoidance tank. And I'd rather not approach the situation of dodging lots of hits in a row or right at the pull and be rage starved at a critical point. Not to mention the stress on the healers trying to heal you thru 5 dodges and then 3 big hits.

To me, being a tank is all about making things as easy for the healers and dps. Getting rage starved doesn't help the dps. Taking very spikey damage doesn't help the healers. But if you're taking alot of damage and it's more predictable, the healers can get used to it and adjust long term, and being able to keep infinite rage will give you the threat lead that your DPS need to go all out. Not to mention the increased DPS you contribute.

Satrina
09-24-2009, 12:40 PM
As you get into harder content, it will make a lot more sense to you. On the other hand, if you only ever do normal modes, it probably won't.

Muffin Man
09-24-2009, 12:44 PM
Avoidance clickies can be very powerfull: in situations where strings of hits are bad that's where you use them: it often helps me to get rid of kologarns stacking debuff and the stacking debuff of auriaya's cats.

Use the right tool for the right job, there is no "best tankset" for all bosses. Every boss needs a new decission on what works best.
(ofcourse you can conquer all in one set if you outgear things)

Realistically with avoidance clickies you're getting ~5% after DR. That's pretty underwhelming; to me that's a 'feel good' on-use. It's hardly like popping evasion or something.

That said, I do use Fervor of the Frostborn for regular ToC, since even outside of stuns there's a lot of physical damage that can be avoided and I've easily met the EH minimums for each fight so I don't blindly stack stamina anymore.

As for tanks who gem stamina, looking at a tank I raid with he's got 10 sockets. 200 dodge/parry rating after DRs is going to get you like 3.5% avoidance or you could have 300 stamina, which is 3k+ life (depending on talents, ect). Gems are less flexible than gear so it's just playing it safe to me.

I'm actually pretty OCD about matching sockets so I actually don't stack stamina, but every red/yellow socket at this point has +15 stamina (it wasn't like this in naxx lol).

As an aside, it seems that people hardly talk about EH minimums anymore, which leads to these extremist stamina or avoidance debates.

Proculeius
09-24-2009, 12:52 PM
As you get into harder content, it will make a lot more sense to you. On the other hand, if you only ever do normal modes, it probably won't.

I offtanked H TOC pretty recently and the guild that picked me up their tank died on ice howl on the first stun i picked it up at pretty much 100% and lived fine through out the rest of the fight no problems. by the end of that fight I had taken less damage then that tank who died 2/3 into the fight. He was a stam stacker.

and i agree with you for saying tanking is all about making it easy for healers and dps. All healers i know say that i am one of the ezier tanks to heal that theyve run with. and since im a paladin i dont have to worry about having enough rage to threat.

Meythos
09-24-2009, 01:31 PM
Dunno, I always figured I'd just throw Exp/Stam in red slots, Def/Stam in yellows and full out pure stam in blues.

But then again I'm not micro-tuning my gear for tanking the same way I do for dps.

Muffin Man
09-24-2009, 01:56 PM
I offtanked H TOC pretty recently and the guild that picked me up their tank died on ice howl on the first stun i picked it up at pretty much 100% and lived fine through out the rest of the fight no problems. by the end of that fight I had taken less damage then that tank who died 2/3 into the fight. He was a stam stacker.

and i agree with you for saying tanking is all about making it easy for healers and dps. All healers i know say that i am one of the ezier tanks to heal that theyve run with. and since im a paladin i dont have to worry about having enough rage to threat.

You probably took less damage because you're a paladin (I'm guess he wasn't) and have AD. Icehowl's tank killing move is Ferocious butt (stun) followed by melee. Or even worse, Freezing breath (stun), butt, melee.

Avoidance doesn't do anything at all in those cases (it also sounds like the first tank died to stun in which case the only thing he had to save him was his EH).

Keep in mind that before 3.2.2 paladins had the best EH next to druids, which is why AD got nerfed in 3.2.2.

Stamina is only one contribution to EH after all.

krc
09-24-2009, 02:21 PM
I agree with Orcstar that there is not best tanking set for every boss. I think that the main reason that people will go with stamina is that alot of bosses right now hit for so hard that if you don't stack stamina and the bosses gets two hits on you you are dead. Like Orcstar said fights like Auraya, Kolo, Vezax and even Algalon if you get a minimum EH avoidance is favorable. Right now in ToC EH is by far the best choice because there is so much unavoidable damage in it such as Gormoks Impale.

Martie
09-24-2009, 02:37 PM
Realistically with avoidance clickies you're getting ~5% after DR. That's pretty underwhelming; to me that's a 'feel good' on-use. It's hardly like popping evasion or something.


I don't disagree with you on the fact that stamina is pretty much king right now, but please keep your math right.
The term diminishing returns is highly confusing here, since you don't really get less for your points.
Remember, what is important is effective avoidance increase.
When you have 40% avoidance, 2% more avoidance will decrease the average damage taken from avoidable sources by 3.33%.
When you have 50% avoidance, 2% more avoidance will decrease the average damage taken from avoidable sources by 4%.
When you have 60% avoidance, 2% more avoidance will decrease the average damage taken from avoidable sources by 5%.
So while it may take more itemization points to get that 2% avoidance, the results get larger as well.


When I pop my avoidance clickies, I get an extra 10.9% avoidance. This is unbuffed, so buffed it should be less, so let's use 10%.
Raidbuffed, my avoidance should be over 60%, when including debuffs on the boss.

So that means the total amount of melee hits taken goes down by more then 25%, which is a really nice deal. I use them on Gormok, for example. We use a 4stack strategy, and I'm the second tank. So by the time my stacks are growing, the first tank is taking heavy damage, and I want to help the healers as much as I can, so I pop my trinkets a little while after taking my second debuff, to decrease the amount of melee damage taken.
Does it make or break the fight? Hell no.
Does it help? I'm quite sure it does.

Reev
09-24-2009, 02:44 PM
Keep in mind that even though a lot of the big hits aren't mitigated by armor, they usually aren't what kills you. Usually what kills you are those big unmitigable hits IN CUNJUCNTION with normal hits which are affected by armor. If the armor is more EH that Stamina, then I say take the armor. Because when you take that normal hit before the big hit or after the big hit, that extra 2k armor or whatever may be worth more than the 170 stamina.

vine
09-24-2009, 07:14 PM
I did a pug VoA25 the other day after getting the 2nd brewfest trinket, and the other tank, a warrior in gear about the same as mine, was laughing at me for stacking so much stamina. Then I looked at his health, it was 10k less than mine. And after he pulled the first mob, I pulled agro almost immediately and for the rest of the run he couldnt hold the mobs off me.
I fail to see the relationship between EH and threat, what point are you making?

ghromorth
09-24-2009, 07:46 PM
end raid focus stats: keep your basis cap(def,exp,hit) and stack stamina + armor avoidance for endgame raid is overrated... ya you can get a bunch of avoidance but low sta will result in a oneshot if the avoid fails

robbon
09-25-2009, 07:43 AM
Im not a pure stamina stacker, i try and balance all my stats as best i can. I also aim for the hit/expertise soft caps and also keep an eye on physical mitigation through str and armor. i juggle stuff.. a lot.

Its a nightmare at the moment as there is so much choice on gear, all slightly different..some has exp, some has massive armor, others have high stam..

Stam stacking is a comfort factor... a lot in your raid dont actually give a monkeys how much avoidance you have they just feel better if the tank has 50k buffed hp.

As said before stam has a lot of use but dont neglect your other tanking stats and CD's and try to work them to the instance/encounter.

Low hp will get you killed, quickly as it may only take 1 shot imo.