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jamjarjay
09-22-2009, 07:31 AM
Recently dinged 80 with my pally. Up to now I've been mainly trading on the AH and soloing through the levels so done VERY little group. By very little, I mean virtually none.

My old guild imploded and now I have to look for a new guild plus try not to be a complete newbie!

I've been able to gear up from the AH - money isn't really a problem, more availability of BoE on the AH, and have been reading up on tanking skills - i.e. positioning, rotation, threat control etc... however I don't really know where to start without throwing myself in at the deep end.

1) does my gear look ok? The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kilrogg&n=Jamjarjay)

2) if i join a group for daily heroics without knowing the heroics, any tactics or really what to do, I think I'll just get yelled at or kicked - can you guys recommend where best to start?

3) Is it worth trying to apply to a guild on the basis of - that I have good starter gear, willing to learn, am not an ass and can offer max JC/enchant/inscript to guildies as well as financial contributions? It's not that I think I can buy my way in some where, just that I have very well developed skills in other areas :D

4) I've gone off and tried some high level fights to see how the tanking gear works outs (i.e a couple of lvl 80 elites that are group quests) and had no problems with health, but my mana runs out like nobodies business!

Mert
09-22-2009, 07:58 AM
Your mana will run out when soloing - it's just one of those things. You get a major amount of mana return through the Spiritual Attunement talent which relies upon you receiving heals from a third party. You can manage okay by using Blessing of Sanctuary, keeping Divine Plea up the whole time and judging Wisdom, but you'll still go oom a lot of you like to do stuff solo. My recommendation? Invest in a Retri off-spec for soloing stuff or find a Mage friend and beg them for strudels :P

In terms of Heroics, a lot of people do seem to have no patience for a new tank these days so my recommendation would be to try and find a group of like-minded people and run with them regularly rather than seeking a new group from scratch each time. Unless they're jerks, of course, you don't wanna group up with jerks.

It may also be worth running the instances on Normal for a bit - the latter ones still have some nice drops for you (notably Seal of the Pantheon from Halls of Lightning normal) and Silver-Plated Breastplate from a quest inside UP. Only a few of the instances hold any real challenge for a tank outside of knowing the tactics. Unfortunately there's kind of an unwritten code that the tank is typically the leader and you need to inspire confidence amongst your partymates. Knowing the instance helps a lot here so read up all you can and try to be as prepared as possible for what you'll see.

Your spec is great (it's exactly the same as mine, in fact :P) and your glyphs are generally good (though I'd recommend the Minor Glyph of Lay on Hands).

I won't focus too much on your enchants as I can see why you may not want to shell out on the best there is for your blue gear, but in general lose +10 All on chest and use either Super Health or +22 Defense. Should probably enchant those rings though, since you have the ability too and they're both pretty good.

Before you'll be considered by a serious raiding guild you'll also need to get Argent Crusade to Revered or higher and Sons of Hodir to exalted for their head and shoulder enchants, respectively. Wear the Argent Crusade Tabard when you're doing high level normals or any Heroics and the rep will farm itself. Sons of Hodir need a quest chain and then either a month or so of dailies or a whole bunch of Relics of Ulduar handed in. Luckily, Relics are ten-a-penny on the AH these days and if money's no issue you might do well to pick some up to expedite the process.

So yeah, gearwise you're okay to start off (Wyrmrest Accord have a few nice bits at Revered that might be upgrades) so your main challenge will be finding people with the patience to run through instances with a new tank. I'd say advertise yourself as such and say you're specifically looking for folk who are also new 80s and get a solid group of friends together so you can all learn them at your own pace without worrying about being called a "nubl0rd lol" along the way. You can't be the only fresh 80 on your server, so I'm sure you'll find a friendly group in no time :)

Once you get your group sorted, run Heroics as though they're going out of fashion and make sure you do the Daily Heroic every day. Set yourself a goal of accumulating enough badges for something (Libram might be good, since you don't appear to have one). While you're doing that, you'll get enough Conquest Badges to pretty much deck yourself out in full epics (don't be afraid to trade down to Valor or even Heroism badges for the loot from previous tiers). I can't remember exactly, but I worked out you need around 430 Emblems of Conquest to get absolutely everything. If you're buying some pieces (Indestructible Plate Girdle is still one of the best items in slot, in my opinion) then you'll need fewer than that.

Put your mind to it and pepper in some Naxx pugs on the weekend and you can easily get that many badges in a few weeks.

As a fresh 80 tank there's no denying there's a lot of work to be done (mainly experience and practice) but you'll get there sooner than you think. Just don't be scared to come back to sites like this one and Maintankadin and ask if you have any questions along the way. Best of luck :)

killbilly
09-22-2009, 08:29 AM
I recently started a thread [LINK] (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f175/55832-me-healer.html) because of a failed tanking experience and although you're not a DK, I think the general advice is brilliant.

Hopefully by reading through it, you won't make the same mistakes I made.

jamjarjay
09-23-2009, 01:23 PM
Thanks for the replies guys.

I've now added some enchants and got to exalted with Sons of Hodir for the shoulders:
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kilrogg&n=Jamjarjay)

My defense is up to 550 as well, so should my focus shift to increasing stam and hit now? Working on argent crusade rep (half way through honored so its going to take some time, but I am wearing the tabard - just got to get in some instances now! still too chicken!!)

nethervoid
09-23-2009, 01:49 PM
Regular ToC might be a good place to start. It's easy. People farm it for shards a lot. And the gear drops are crazy for how easy it is. There's almost no trash, so you don't really have to 'know' the instance to do it. The bosses don't really have too many (or any) special moves you can't be told in 10 seconds with a group.

Join a regular ToC farm, and explain that this is your first time there, so have them explain any pert details you should know. I just came back about 2-3 months ago and didn't know any heroic instances (still have never read up on them), and I was fine. Of course I've had a lot of previous tank experience, so I knew how to tank and was just rusty.

Tanking WotLK is super-friggin easy compared to BC. I think you'll be fine. Most of the heroic boss fights can be taught to you in about 20 seconds. lol Best way to learn is to just jump right in! Learn as you play, and don't give two craps what people think, so long as you prep them up front with 'I'm new to this instance, please take that into consideration and let me know any pert details'.

Glittersmith
09-23-2009, 01:54 PM
Snatch the Brewfest trinkets asap whilst you can, 340 extra stamina would make wonders.

For gearing and gemming it really depends on what sort of content you intend to tank. If its only for hcs then gemming for avoidance and gearing for block is viable. If you however want to start raiding then stamina is king.

MellvarTank
09-23-2009, 02:08 PM
To be honest, I have the brewfest trinkets simply for the hilarity of drinking at a whim for free in the game. Stamina is good, but there is so much more to worry about in terms of mitigation that you can get from trinkets. As a Paladin, stamina is not the top concern for trinkets: Mitigation is.

Advise: Go to BC and try to tank some of those instances to get a feel for aggro radius, and tanking abilities. You never know who you are grouping with, and may get some good pointers. When you have some of the basics down, try regular Wrath instances to see how to hold aggro, etc.

When you are confident, then move on to Heroic wrath instances, start with UK, Nexus, AN and progress from there. Don't ever try to tank a Heroic without knowing the fights, it's a good way to fail and get kicked from a group.

Read all of the threads in regards to Palli tanking on this site. So many knowledgeable people. I have been main tanking a lot of raids including naxx 25, and off tanking end game raids.... I learn different ways to do things every single time I come onto this site. If I want to know something about tanking, gear, patch changes, aggro, you name it, this is my first stop.

Reev
09-23-2009, 02:19 PM
I would ditch the idea of making "financial contributions." If an initiate in my guild were to offer people "financial contributions," it would immediately set off alarm bells with people and make them wonder why you're spreading money around when your application should stand on its merits, that you're a good person who's willing to learn and has a great attitude. I don't know about other guilds, but mine tends to be happy to help people learn who have a good attitude about it, but we're much more concerned about attitudes. You may not intend to come off as "buying your way in" but the way it would come off to most guilds is that you are way to concerned that you won't do well on your own merits. Big Big Red Flag.

jamjarjay
09-24-2009, 04:09 AM
Thanks guys - again, more really useful advice. I'm loathe to click "answered" because you never know who might post more!

Re the financial side of things, I would never want to buy my way into anywhere or appear like that. I suppose, if you were to ask me what my value was at the moment as a lvl 80 player, I would say my alts and my trading skills. I have had great fun making large amounts of cash on the AH and maxing out with as many epic designs/enchants etc... as possible. As its the economy of a game that always appeals to me first, the grouping/questing/raiding side of things has just been left behind and now I want to pick a bit of that and master that too :D

You are right, and I won't mention anything to a guild about cash - I would never expect to be carried or put in a group that I hadn't earnt the right to be there or to be given a chance to learn in.

What other trinkets should I look for to slot one in alongside Darkmoon: Greatness (str)?

Mert
09-24-2009, 04:28 AM
There's two Brewfest Trinkets you can farm for while the festival is on, as mentioned earlier. There's The Black Heart from ToC Normal or Essence of Gossamer from Azjol Nerub Heroic.

Your gear is fine but you probably need a confidence boost to get into a Naxx-10 PUG but Repelling Charge from 10-man Thaddius is great and you can farm Halls of Lightning Normal for Seal of the Pantheon in the meantime.

Darkmoon Card: Greatness is nice for threat while you're still playing with DPS who outgear you but you'll eventually want to replace it with a true tanking trinket. Keep the Card for certain fights still and for your Retribution set but most tanks run dual stam for the later content in Wrath.

jamjarjay
09-24-2009, 12:57 PM
Again, thanks for the help.

Just grouped to do the Corin Direbrew quest - we did it 4 times and the last two dropped the two +stam trinkets for me :D w00h00. Now up to 35k health and had no problems. Lost aggro on Corin once when a DPS was geared over me but got it back no problem with hand of reakoning.

I know it is an easy tank i.e. he doesn't hit hard but it was my first tank :D

Regular ToC next on the list I think :D

Martie
09-24-2009, 03:06 PM
Lots of things have already been said. I feel like giving my own answers.

Recently dinged 80 with my pally.
Congratulations!


My old guild imploded and now I have to look for a new guild plus try not to be a complete newbie!
Well, face it, you are a complete newbie. What you want is to not look like a complete newbie and to be a newbie for as short an amount of time as possible. You made the right choice by coming here.


1) does my gear look ok? The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kilrogg&n=Jamjarjay)
Yes, it does. It looks quite impressive, in fact.


2) if i join a group for daily heroics without knowing the heroics, any tactics or really what to do, I think I'll just get yelled at or kicked - can you guys recommend where best to start?
It's not a question of 'where'. It's a question of 'with who.' The best thing you could do is to do all the heroics with people who know the fights and are willing to take the time to explain them to you. Of course, you should read up on the fights, but there is a big difference between knowing the tactics and actually doing the fights.
There are two easy ways to get people to help you here. Either use existing friends, or put that money you have to good use. I'm sure that you can find people willing to make their heroic runs a few minutes longer to explain fights to you if you offer them a fair price for their time.

Also note that you are already almost overgearing some of the easier heroics - a lot of them were designed for the first batch of tanks in Northrend, without ready access to buyable gear.
So, take for example the last boss in Uthgarde Keep. His main dangerous move is a smash. If you went in there with 24k hp unbuffed, you would want to avoid them by hiding behind something. You can simply eat the smashes and live, especially if you have decent party members with you.
So brute forcing (some) stuff is definatly possible.


3) Is it worth trying to apply to a guild on the basis of - that I have good starter gear, willing to learn, am not an ass and can offer max JC/enchant/inscript to guildies as well as financial contributions? It's not that I think I can buy my way in some where, just that I have very well developed skills in other areas :D

Any good guild will know that skill trumps gear. Any good guild will also have few tank spots. I think you should have a good chance applying to any guild that's not farming ulduar and up yet, though.

4) I've gone off and tried some high level fights to see how the tanking gear works outs (i.e a couple of lvl 80 elites that are group quests) and had no problems with health, but my mana runs out like nobodies business!
Mana is an issue mostly while soloing. Judge wisdom, keep divine plea active and use blessing of Sanctuary. If you still run out of mana, pull some nonelites to smash on your shield so you get more mana back.
The same thing mostly applies in Heroics, except that you get quite a bit of mana back from damage taken. It's still possible to run low, especially on fights against lower amounts of enemies. In those cases, either drop consecration from your rotation or pull more mobs. If the problem persists (and it really shouldn't at your gear level,) use seal of wisdom instead of seal of vengeance.
(And always keep some mana potions at hand just in case.)

jamjarjay
09-26-2009, 01:18 AM
Thanks MArtie, very helpful - mana much more under control now I realised divine plea renews and seal of wisdom best unless health looking unbelievable low. The odd mana potion also helped.

Ok an update :D. Tanked ToC norm yesterday - first time round no problems, but when the Palestress came instead on the second run, we really struggled as a group. The healer said it was cos the DPS werent doing enough damage, rather than my fault though.

Then i tanked (with a different group) UK heroic - again with no problems. The last boss was fun, but as you said, with 32k health and quick feet to avoid smash anyway, no real danger. The healer was top notch as well and the group friendly.

More problems on UP heroic as two of our DPS dropped out and we got a serious raider drop in one of the places. His main spec was tank and even offspec he was doing so much DPS that he was pulling aggro off me all the time and mouthing off at me to do my job. He was also suggesting he tank rather than me. I said I wasn't geared for offspec, but would go with whatever the group wanted. The group said they wanted me to tank, but when we got to the second to last boss, Skadi, the other new DPS pushed for the other tank so we switched. He did a good job, was very experienced but yelled at the DPSs and healer that didn't get out of the AoE quick enough. We were not an experienced group but functioned fine together before a more experienced player came along. Anyhow, once we got to the last boss, he said he wasn't going to tank any more, switched to DPS and then died as did the another DPS, so me, one healer and one DPS ended up taking down the king on our own - w00t. Felt like much more of an achievement!

What have I learned?
1) I can tank. Its about confidence and knowing the fight and using your brain as to where to position the boss for the benefit of the group
2) tanking addons help a great deal re Omen 3 etc...
3) My gear is pretty good considering I'm a newbie tank and I won't have any problems farming heroics
4) some people aren't fun or nice, even if they bring uber-skillz to the party

My questions -
a) anyone recommend any guide/gear guide to gearing my offspec ret pally with crafted/BoE items so the same situation wouldn't be a problem again

b) what can I do to keep aggro other than Righteous fury, avengers shield, hand of reck, consecration? Is it my fault or should a DPS be able to limit their threat?

Mert
09-28-2009, 06:24 AM
A truly good DPS should always be aware of their threat, that much is definitely true. Unfortunately, a lot of people seem to prefer having the biggest numbers on Recount rather than actually benefitting the group.

Having said that, the main way for you to maintain aggro is your rotation - put simply, there's a specific order to casting your spells that has been proven to produce the highest threat over time (usually known as threat-per-second, or TPS). Our rotation is usually known as "969" because we alternate abilities that can be cast every 9 seconds with ones that can be cast every 6. It doesn't matter which order you use the abilities in (they all get equal uptime due to it rotating through them with no gaps) as long as you consistently alternate between them.

Your "9" abilities are: Holy Shield, Judgement and Consecration. Your "6" abilities are Hammer of the Righteous and Shield of Righteousness. Therefore an example of 969 would be:

HS > HotR > JoL > ShoR > Conc > HotR > HS > ShoR > JoL > HotR > Conc > ShoR > HS

If executed correctly you should have no gaps between casting except for the Global Cooldown (1.5 seconds) - having gaps in your rotation should only be limited to extreme circumstances - most typically using Hand of Reckoning or Righteous Defense to pick up a stray mob or using some kind of cooldown.

If you run into another high DPS that's pulling off you a lot, run in with Avenging Wrath on and use Hand of Salvation on the DPS in question once he's building up a large amount of threat (HoSalv reduces 20% of their total threat so the longer you can wait before using it, the bigger an impact it will have).

Uprise
10-02-2009, 02:25 AM
might be somewhat of a late response. But i used to run my guildies so often. i never really intended on tanking. but what i did not know is that while running lower level toons. i kinda was. i forcefully learned some keys to tankin that you wont have just by learning the fight such as. awareness and improvisation. since i HAD to make sure the guildies i was runnin stayed alive i had to be aware of everything around us.

try it. run a lower toon somewhere. just to sharpen your awareness skills. because you might know the fights but i believe tanking involves more then that.