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killbilly
09-21-2009, 10:43 AM
First off a link:

Killbilly @ Wow-heroes (http://wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&server=Aerie%20Peak&name=Killbilly)
(I chose WoW-Heroes because The armory wasn't showing the brewfest trinkets.)

Note* In frost presence I have 23.6k HP and 23k armor and my def is overcapped.

Now the question:

I grouped last night for H Drak'Tharon. Right off the bat the group was whining about me being a DK Tank.

So we started the run (which I had never done, but new I could) and moved swiftly to the first boss (TrollGore?). I made the pull and held aggro but kept dying. We tried three times (twice with a pally healer and once with a priest (shadow...go figure) ) and failed. Of course I was to blame according to the group. So I dropped from the party and went on my way.

I had no problem holding aggro the whole time.

I've always believed that:

"If the healer dies, it's the tanks fault. If the tank dies, it's the healers fault and if the DPS dies, it's their own damn fault"

My question to the tanks here at TankSpot is: Was this bad gear/low health fault of the tank(me) or overly sucky healers? Being kinda new to Tanking, I'm not sure how to tell the difference yet.

Thanks,

Killbilly

Swam
09-21-2009, 10:48 AM
"If the healer dies, it's the tanks fault. If the tank dies, it's the healers fault and if the DPS dies, it's their own damn fault"

amen

Esch
09-21-2009, 11:06 AM
I'm going to be blunt and call it MAD syndrome (Mutually Assured Destruction).

Your gear is adequate for getting in the door of a heroic, but I wager the paladin was similarly geared. In that situation, you're fighting to stay alive as much as the healer is trying to keep you up. Doesn't mean you did anything wrong, but that both linchpins in the group were over extended badly.

I would take this as a lesson in how folks don't run heroics for gear anymore, but try to push through them at an unreasonable pace if you're not overgeared. Gearing up more is your best option, so you can reach a point where you can compenstate for the healer's gear/abilities. There are a number of gaps in your gear that quest, rep and enchants could improve and don't require you stepping into a heroic atm.

Woolymuff
09-21-2009, 11:14 AM
To just trail on your thread here, I am having a problem holding threat in heroics on mobs and ranged dps. Single boss encounters I never lose aggro and roll through everything. It seems to be as my gear gets better the harder it is to hold aggro. I really am at a loss here as it is really annoying when you lose people in your group since dying is so darn expensive I feel terrible for people.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Anvilmar&n=arc)

Bashal
09-21-2009, 11:22 AM
To the OP:

It's worth noting that trollgore does increased periodic damage. If trollgore doesn't die fast enough, it's a wipe. Was your DPS low?

killbilly
09-21-2009, 11:30 AM
I would take this as a lesson in how folks don't run heroics for gear anymore, but try to push through them at an unreasonable pace if you're not overgeared.


That's another thing that drove me nuts. Before a few pulls, I'd delay a bit to make sure the group knew their mark (and so casters could mana up) and the pally was complaining that he "didn't want to take 10mins per fight" (more like 2mins downtime between fights, which seems reasonable to me as a few were close to going oom).

Also, I am doing rep stuff, but I'm hoping to supplement with Heroics.

killbilly
09-21-2009, 11:34 AM
To the OP:

It's worth noting that trollgore does increased periodic damage. If trollgore doesn't die fast enough, it's a wipe. Was your DPS low?

I wasn't aware that Trollgore did that.
**Pun Alert** Seems like I should TrollMore.

I was around 1.6k DPS and I was 2nd to another DK (i believe he was around 2.2k). Then followed a Boomkin, S-Priest then pally(on heals). The Boomkin and I were close on DPS.

Bashal
09-21-2009, 11:46 AM
Sounds like low DPS may have been the real problem. Against a single target, the DPSers really should all be doing more DPS than the tank.

nethervoid
09-21-2009, 12:01 PM
I don't know DK stats, but if you're looking for +def +stam gear you can make serious strides in gear by doing regular ToC over and over again until you get the:

Legs
Hands
Belt
Trinket

Sorry I'm at work and don't have time to link the items.

killbilly
09-21-2009, 12:03 PM
I don't know DK stats, but if you're looking for +def +stam gear you can make serious strides in gear by doing regular ToC over and over again until you get the:

Legs
Hands
Belt
Trinket

Sorry I'm at work and don't have time to link the items.

I'll look em up. Thanks.

zaubade
09-21-2009, 12:07 PM
Another thing. where you keeping him and the group away from the bodies on the floor? He explodes them from time to time.. they hurt! Alot! In fact even running Drak Keep with guildies who have been in there before i always warn about that cause somebody almost always stands next to the bodies... and dies.....

as to your question ... we can give advice on what to look at, gear, play style, healer gear, dps, etc. but en the end only you can answer your own question and when you can responsibly tell if it was you or the healer or the dps then you will have taken a big step in your tanking education. ohh anad sometimes it is everybody collective fault. :) at any rate every wipe should be a learning experience at least for you a tank.

killbilly
09-21-2009, 01:14 PM
@Zaubade

The priest, Pally and Boomkin were off the stairs(ranged) where as I and the other DK were in Melee range on the stairs picking up the adds as they came down the steps.


I know I need more work as a tank. That comes with time and runs.

Although, After everyone's input, I'm more inclined to believe the entire group was at fault, even if they were blaming me. Which is fine. It's only a dungeon. at least now I know better what to look for.

Lakotamani
09-21-2009, 02:36 PM
As many have said before me, you will eventually learn when a wipe was your fault, the healers fault, or everyone collectively.

It is your job to know the fights before you step into a dungeon, raid, etc.

A great tank learns how to keep others from failing by using the fight mechanics to make the fight easier for everyone else. ie keeping the boss from the bodies reduces the healing the pally has to do on you and the dps, thus increasing the chance for success.

Heroics will get easier as gear gets better. However, the scenario plays out in every end-game setting. If your eyes are set on end game raid tanking, you need to learn how to decipher wipes. Was there a cooldown you could have used? Did the boss have a buff that should have been dispelled? Was the dps standing in fire? Were you standing in fire? Did low DPS cause the healers to oom?

Take it a step further and know how to avoid those situations before you step inside the raid/dungeon. Nothing frustraits me more than a tank not knowing a fight.

zaubade
09-21-2009, 02:50 PM
@Zaubade

The priest, Pally and Boomkin were off the stairs(ranged) where as I and the other DK were in Melee range on the stairs picking up the adds as they came down the steps.


Try kitting him around the room. When you kill the first group of adds move him about 15 yards away down the stairs away from any other bodies every time adds come kill them and repeat.. .. if you have a few piles of the adds near you and they all explode you're dead!


(and so you know... I know this from experience... was very well geared at them time.. in a normal version... just decided to stay put and dps through him... well geared raid healer was with me.. some lower lvl dps... 3 piles of adds... they all exploded all hit for 6k or so each.... full health to dead just like that.. I was wtf? hehe live and learn right.)

Reev
09-21-2009, 02:55 PM
23k is low HP to be tanking heroics, but a reasonable healer could get you through it anyway, especially on an easy boss like Trollgore. So I think my answer to you is that you are a little low gearwise, but it's really the healing that is causing the wipe.

One other thing to note is that DKs seem to take a lot more spike damage than other tanks at low gear levels, or at least that's what I've observed while healing. That could just be a perception issue, but a lot of healers feel that way. At the other end of the spectrum I've healed DKs that never seemed to take any damage at all hardly. Either way, a healer even in quest blues should be able to keep you up through DTK, which is one of the easier heroics.

zaubade
09-21-2009, 03:20 PM
yes 23k is a bit low although buffed you are closer to the range to start out in, however at the gear lvl you have you have to follow a set strategy that will reduce incoming damage to you and everybody else and know you limitations as far as which dungeons you can go into... note that I believe you are capable of H DTK, but the healer is going to be stressed a bit especially if the dps output of the group is low thus making the encounters longer.

With all that said there are a few things to point out and reiterate.

1. your gear does need improvement as was stated before. I will not insult you by telling you what needs to be improved now. (if help is needed there are threads on gear for the different tank classes, or just ask I am sure many can help) I will say that the first thing I would do is get a better wep, Titansteel (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=41257) comes to mind as an easily obtainable upgrade.

2. strategy... even when you are well geared learn them, know them, love them, use them.

3. You have the right attitude... you came to this web site to ask if you where at fault and did not just assume the grouped sucked... you want to improve. That I think is one of the foundations for any good tank. always ask, "can I do better?" I would encourage you or any new tank to never assume it is the healer or the group, have confidence in what you do know but be honest when you are at fault and use the wipes to learn and improve.

!3M
09-21-2009, 07:38 PM
23k is low HP to be tanking heroics, but a reasonable healer...

erm... not to be sarcastic but are you serious???

I seem to remember myself hitting H DTK with about 18-20k HP (although it might have been more but definitely lower than 23k) without any issues... heck, if my memory serves me right, I was also tanking Naxx10 with 20k HP... I also remember a time when people had to gear up through heroics instead of just pugging reg ToC5 and h ToC5 for an almost full set of epics...

that said, I feel that many people now-a-days are basing gear as experience and skill... I can understand that it does show that you've been there, but it doesn't tell if you've been obscenely carried or if you're pulling 1.5k dps from gear that is supposedly giving you 3.5k dps...

p.s. sry i got a bit angsty but i've been meeting many people who are lazy to heal or dps, and expect to get loot while alt-tabbing to their youtube channels... there are also those who just plainly don't have a clue about their stuff, but i'm not going there...

Martie
09-21-2009, 08:42 PM
24k isn't too low to run heroics.

It is too low to run heroics by brute-forcing them an ignoring tactics.

Trollgore has a stacking buff that makes him do more damage. The buff stacks by a skill that he does. Every enemy he hits with the skill adds 1 point to the stack. The adds are his enemies.
Conclusion: You want Trollgore to not see the adds, or he will kill you.
Consume - Spell - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=59805)

Also, a dps doing less then 2k dps is lazy, stupid or both. It's possible to do 2k dps on boss dummies shortly after you ding 80. On a stationary fight like Trollgore, you should do more.

Jameak
09-22-2009, 05:29 AM
Consume (Trollgore's AoE buff) is LoS based. You can avoid buffing him up by having your entire group hide around one side of the stairs every 15 seconds, right before he casts consume. In this manner, he only gains one stack of the consume buff each time from having only the tank in range, in addition to the entire group avoiding the AoE damage. I do not believe that the zombie adds contribute to the Consume buff, and that they are only there for the purposes of corpse explosion.

Inexperienced holy paladins often struggle healing more than one person at once during group-wide damage spikes, this may have contributed to your failure, as its possible the healer neglected your health for the sake of healing up the DPS. If as mentioned in this thread, both you and the healer were at similar gear levels, this lack of attention can cause the tank death if the HPS is roughly the same as DTPS.

23K hitpoints is not too low to be tanking heroics. But to succeed, you should know as much about the fights as you can so that you are assisting your group, rather than hindering them. One less point of failure, as they say.

Mačl
09-22-2009, 06:21 AM
Inexperienced holy paladins often struggle healing more than one person at once during group-wide damage spikes, this may have contributed to your failure, as its possible the healer neglected your health for the sake of healing up the DPS. If as mentioned in this thread, both you and the healer were at similar gear levels, this lack of attention can cause the tank death if the HPS is roughly the same as DTPS.


This. I've done quite a few runs both as a tank and a healer. 23k life is fine DEPENDING ON YOUR HEALER. To be blunt, I don't trust pug Paladin healers. Most of them play Paladin healer because they were told they had great hps and longevety. This doesn't change the fact that they can't heal while moving and that they struggle with group damage. Couple this with inexperience in the ancient art of triage and you have got a dead tank on your hands.
A Paladin who heals thru TOC5 while geared for that instance wihtout losing anybody is a great healer indeed. Could've been so much greater as a Priest or Druid, tho.





23K hitpoints is not too low to be tanking heroics. But to succeed, you should know as much about the fights as you can so that you are assisting your group, rather than hindering them. One less point of failure, as they say.

With 23k hp you WILL have to know when to pop a CD. That in turn means you need to know the fight. You may read about the fight mechanics on the web but you'd stille have to wipe to make your own experiences. My advice is, team up with a fledgeling healer(Disc Priest would be nice for the damage spike prevention). Do not listen to stuff you hear in trade and only listen to pug DDs when the seem to have an actual clue what they are talking about.

Buckle up. You are going thru a school of hard knocks and setbacks every tank has to survive. give it two weeks and you will have enough experience to survive this.

killbilly
09-22-2009, 07:52 AM
1. your gear does need improvement as was stated before. I will not insult you by telling you what needs to be improved now. I wouldn't get offended. For me to ask for help, then get offended because of an answer would be ridiculous.

As for the gear, I am aware. I'm lvling my BS to craft better equipment and be able to socket my glove and bracers.


A great tank learns how to keep others from failing by using the fight mechanics to make the fight easier for everyone else. ie keeping the boss from the bodies reduces the healing the pally has to do on you and the dps, thus increasing the chance for success.
I am learning the fights. Some before hand, others as I go. (I'm a "hands-on-learner). I think where I've hindered myself is "quest leveling" and not mixing in many instance runs.

I am getting better though.


It is too low to run heroics by brute-forcing them an ignoring tactics.I've taken my failed H DTK run as an eyeopener and have begun to read more about additional instances, bosses, encounters and tactics. I think my "lazy, brute-force" tactics is what hurt me the most and I'm set on not doing that again.


I am open to any suggestions. Like add-ons, guides, and wheter or not my build could be better. (I might as well ask while I can)


Thanks again for the help.

Nighthorror
09-22-2009, 07:58 AM
practice makes perfect man. Every time I dps with a new tank in a pug I learn new things so if that is an option try that as well.

Theotherone
09-22-2009, 10:08 AM
Your gear was/is fine for H DTK (King Dred might be a little tough), but you're running into the problem of players getting used to running dungeons with over geared toons. Players forget that there are still new people out there who want to learn and the only way to learn is to do.

Also, the fact that the group moaned about a DK tank, leads me to believe that they were newbies themselves and pretty clueless about tanking. They probably read some post somewhere and are now experts.

Keep at it. When you fall off a horse then best thing you can do is get right back on.

Blue
09-22-2009, 12:06 PM
Yeah, I don't know why they'd bemoan a DK tank...my GL just got his alt DK to 80, and his threat and DPS is already darn good, as tank! He keeps asking me how he's doing, and I'm trying to help, although it's very amusing, for me, to hear him talk about the difference in perspective (he's usually a druid healer). Point is, although it may be true, to some extent, that the profusion of DKs in the game means lots of players who don't know the class, it's stupid to assume that a good player won't learn, and bring skills to any class they choose to play.

As far as pugs, keep an open mind, but don't take any of the comments to heart. I made that mistake a couple of times, and it seriously messed up my confidence. Now, I just shrug and move on...

And, as for worrying about wipes, and being responsible for everyone's repairs...yes, it's good to keep that in mind, but, really, 10, 20, or even 50 gold is not really much, for anyone who'd rolling a level 80...that's like ten or fifteen minutes of dailies!

I hate that hurry, hurry, let's get through this instance for badges crap...even though I can do that, at least in several of the dungeons, now, I much prefer just getting the job done, and having fun...and, I never give up trying to learn something from each encounter, or trying a new strategy.

One last thing, to keep in mind...every time one runs an instance, something can go wrong...the server bugs, someone gets d/e...it's just enough different, to make it interesting...that's where a tank can really shine...adaptation to the real time event!
Last night, my healer got snake-wrapped, in Gundrak...everyone was dying, the boss was chewing into me--even though I thought it was a wipe, I popped my trinks, pots, last stand, etc., and I outlasted him! Moments like that make it all worthwhile! I even sliced the snakes off, and used my "goblin jumper cables" on my healer, to rez him!

...and, they worked!! (hee, hee...one out of every 10 times, or so...)

Dormungus
09-23-2009, 03:02 PM
Something an old "vanilla tank turned healer" told me a while back and I've used the logic ever since....

If you did not drink a potion, smack a lock rock and pop every life sustaining CD before you died, it is your fault.

I would die sometimes with last stand or shield wall still available...i'd be a little pissed...want to tell the healers they sucked...but the bottom line....I am watching my incoming dmg, the healers are obviously behind...so pop a cd so they can catch up....
and I let them know so there is no question...."last stand burned" "Shield wall gone"...."popped my potion"..."no more lock rock"...."enraged regen gone"...Now I've done everything I can to stay alive...
NOW I can tell the healers they suck! :D

There is nothing wrong with your gear starting heroics....I was there last year.
The problem:
You just could not carry the suck-tards that you grouped with. You out dps'ed the thunderturkey and the SP....your group sucked....they were not adult enough to know they sucked...so they blamed you. The pally was probably a FoL one button healing jackleg who could not switch gears when damage started to overwhelm his meager abilities.

As you can see, stuff like this kinda pisses me off. My advice, get a guild and stop PUGGING!

uglybbtoo
09-23-2009, 07:14 PM
It's not just DK's suffering this problem it's new tanks in general I have a friend gearing a warrior tank he is at 25K HP he knows his stuff and he gets whines about his HP.

The mentality of pugs they are used to seeing x HP on a tank if they dont see it they assume the tank is no good. X atm is around 34K because if you put all the conq badge gear on thats what you end up at.

As people said however at these HP's you cant brute force stuff you have to know the instances and bosses just like we all did when starting out.

The other choice unfortunately is run as a DPS and pick up the gear offspec with all the 34K tanks out there they usually want nothing from a heroic. Initially go for the easy heroics where dps isnt an issue like h-nexx, h-uk, h-vh or ones that your aoe works well in h-cos etc so even if your dps is low it wont matter. Grab the 19 badge gear first and hopefully get a few drops and it should boost your HP up enuf to not get comment.

killbilly
09-25-2009, 07:37 AM
If you did not drink a potion, smack a lock rock and pop every life sustaining CD before you died, it is your fault.



I have a panic button that I macroed to pop Icebound Fortitude, Unbreakable Armor and A Pot. When my health hits 25% and there seems to be no help in sight, I tap my panic button and keep plowing away.



The mentality of pugs they are used to seeing x HP on a tank if they dont see it they assume the tank is no good. X atm is around 34K because if you put all the conq badge gear on thats what you end up at.

34K on the lower heroics is like taking a gun to a knife fight.

Reev
09-25-2009, 07:49 AM
erm... not to be sarcastic but are you serious???


I am serious. I never said it was too low to be successful, but you will definitely be putting pressure on your healers unless you know how to use your cooldowns correctly. I think I started tanking heroics at about 23k. It's very possible to win, but you can get better HP than that from titansteel and enchants.

I've been tanking for several years now, and I just started healing recently. I've found that when a tank has 23k hp, I can heal them and be successful, but there is a lot more pressure on the whole group. As someone said earlier, 23k isn't too low to tank heroics, but it is too low to brute force your way through, which is the common method for running heroics anymore. I can't remember the last time I saw any tank, myself included, wait for the lightning debuff to fall off the first boss in H HoL, for example. I also rarely see tanks run out of the Lightning Ring on the last boss in H HoS. I'm not saying you can't tank those with 23k HP, but you need to be much smarter about how to do it.

Mctankor
09-25-2009, 06:57 PM
...
"If the healer dies, it's the tanks fault. If the tank dies, it's the healers fault and if the DPS dies, it's their own damn fault"
...

Yes and no..
If the healer dies, in most cases, yes its the tanks fault. HOWEVER there is also lots of things healers can do to get themselves killed. DoTs, AOE and stupid bodypulls to mention some.
If the tank dies, its the healers fault unless the tank puts himself/herself in stupid places, overpulls or find other ways to get owned.
If the DPS dies theres actually 4 options; The DPS is being stupid, the tank is not doing his job, the healer is not doing his job or a combination of the previous two.

Thats why I let stupid DPS know that if they aggro something I havent already or dont let me get in some threat before they start nuking Im not running all over the instance to save their asses - which of course are running AWAY from the tank - and their on their own..

Mctankor
09-25-2009, 07:05 PM
..
Buckle up. You are going thru a school of hard knocks and setbacks every tank has to survive. give it two weeks and you will have enough experience to survive this.
Hard knocks, setbacks and not to mention FLAMES...
Early in wotlk I was told I wasnt geared to tank heroics while I was already clearing naxx on a regular basis.

The fun parts is still the days where you do pug heroics and get flamed from stormwind to orgimmar in one group and get told in the next that youre doing great - by some of the "best" raiders on the server..

killbilly
09-25-2009, 07:42 PM
The fun parts is still the days where you do pug heroics and get flamed from stormwind to orgimmar in one group and get told in the next that youre doing great - by some of the "best" raiders on the server..


Shortly after my (failed) DTK run, I did H VH and HGun and was told I did a f**kin awesome job. We didn't wipe at all. The only bit of advice I got was "Get to the portals quicker" in H VH. which is much better than "OMGWTF!!!1! Lame. Newb Tank".

I am greatful for all the advice I've gotten here @ TS. Even if my gear hasn't gotten much better, my skills have.....which will save my (and my group's) ass more often than a shiny purple sword.

Hades
09-27-2009, 05:34 PM
I was tanking H DTK with 18.5k HP, so the next person that says you can't do it might as well stay silent. Yes, I'm in nerd rage mode. Deal with it. lol

Trollgore fight: I tank him about the middle of the stairs, and when he murks the little troll adds, I'll drag him away a bit. That 10k bashing you take from Corpse Explosion will end your day fast. Other than a little kiting, he's straight tank and spank. Use your cooldowns right, and you'll be fine.

King Dred: Kill everything you can before you pull him, and take a PVP trinket along. He fears, mangles, shrinks you.. it's nasty but again, IF YOU USE YOUR COOLDOWNS, you'll be fine. Oh, and he has adds to boot. One of the toughest bosses in heroics in my opinion/experience.

Thron'ja: If you die here.. lol. Seriously. If I had a weak or distracted healer, I alternate taunt, shield, and heal until I get my skin back. If my healer was on their thing, replace heal with attack.

H DTK is, in my opinion, the easiest heroic in the game. With around 1500 DPS out of everyone, the fights will run pretty long, but providing your healer has a decent mana pool and you know your cooldowns, you'll do great. The higher the DPS, the better your chances. Also, having a healer that will let a low DPS die to keep you afloat is a major asset. As you stated in your original post: "If the DPS dies, it's their own fault." Also, if you find that the healer was off getting another soda midfight or something, Death Pact is your friend!! Bring ol' Dirt thief out to play, let him get in a few hits, and burn him for a quick lifesaver. Yeah, it's a frost strike worth of RP, but would you rather get blamed by egotistical pugs for a wipe, or live to save the day? Also, DK tanks feel really squishy when they're getting geared. It's discouraging, but it goes away. My last, and final point is this: Assume that pugs will ALWAYS make things 300% harder than they should be. If you can prepare for that, you can prepare for bloody near anything.

Nerd rage over. :)

!3M
09-27-2009, 08:15 PM
I've been tanking for several years now, and I just started healing recently.

@Reev: cool, I can therefore consider you to be a veteran tank... and with the utmost respect to another experienced tank (and all the other tanks who have been tanking out there)... i request that we as tanks tone down on the inflation of HP for tanking heroics...

like Hades said, he has tanked it with 18.5k hp... i believe i've done so too when i first hit 80... and mind you, i have always ensured that i was enchanted... although it might not always be to increase my hp pool...

I guess what i'm rather sad (and a little disgusted) to see is that the posters here are beginning to sound very much like the pugs who don't really know better and expect to be carried... aren't we supposed to be helping tanks alike on what they can and can't do realistically?? aren't we supposed to encourage those who value progression instead of "let's just skip content and farm reg ToC so I can muscle through HC and forget what real tanking is about"??

sorry if i sound offensive, but i seriously think that many people value the opinions provided in tankspot... and if we just keep confirming the 'easy' way out for people, then every minimum HC content will require DPS who can put out 2 to 2.5k, a tank who has atleast 25k hp... and heals who has atlest 20k mana and is capable of spamming heals... this imho is not skills (and from my previous impression of what tankspot stands for... is not what tankspot wants too)...

Reev
09-28-2009, 06:47 AM
@Reev: cool, I can therefore consider you to be a veteran tank... and with the utmost respect to another experienced tank (and all the other tanks who have been tanking out there)... i request that we as tanks tone down on the inflation of HP for tanking heroics...

like Hades said, he has tanked it with 18.5k hp... i believe i've done so too when i first hit 80... and mind you, i have always ensured that i was enchanted... although it might not always be to increase my hp pool...

I guess what i'm rather sad (and a little disgusted) to see is that the posters here are beginning to sound very much like the pugs who don't really know better and expect to be carried... aren't we supposed to be helping tanks alike on what they can and can't do realistically?? aren't we supposed to encourage those who value progression instead of "let's just skip content and farm reg ToC so I can muscle through HC and forget what real tanking is about"??

sorry if i sound offensive, but i seriously think that many people value the opinions provided in tankspot... and if we just keep confirming the 'easy' way out for people, then every minimum HC content will require DPS who can put out 2 to 2.5k, a tank who has atleast 25k hp... and heals who has atlest 20k mana and is capable of spamming heals... this imho is not skills (and from my previous impression of what tankspot stands for... is not what tankspot wants too)...

Note I never said that you can't do heroics with 23k hp. You're fine to start heroics at that level. I was trying to suggest that it is in the lower end, and your healer will have to make sure he's paying more attention. For a relatively new tank with an inexperienced/slacker healer, King Dred, for example can be a real challenge.

But yeah, if you're dying to the first boss in H DTK with 23k hp, it probably is the healer's fault.

Reev
09-28-2009, 11:19 AM
@Reev: cool, I can therefore consider you to be a veteran tank... and with the utmost respect to another experienced tank (and all the other tanks who have been tanking out there)... i request that we as tanks tone down on the inflation of HP for tanking heroics...

like Hades said, he has tanked it with 18.5k hp... i believe i've done so too when i first hit 80... and mind you, i have always ensured that i was enchanted... although it might not always be to increase my hp pool...

I guess what i'm rather sad (and a little disgusted) to see is that the posters here are beginning to sound very much like the pugs who don't really know better and expect to be carried... aren't we supposed to be helping tanks alike on what they can and can't do realistically?? aren't we supposed to encourage those who value progression instead of "let's just skip content and farm reg ToC so I can muscle through HC and forget what real tanking is about"??

sorry if i sound offensive, but i seriously think that many people value the opinions provided in tankspot... and if we just keep confirming the 'easy' way out for people, then every minimum HC content will require DPS who can put out 2 to 2.5k, a tank who has atleast 25k hp... and heals who has atlest 20k mana and is capable of spamming heals... this imho is not skills (and from my previous impression of what tankspot stands for... is not what tankspot wants too)...


I've thought about it a little more, and gotten past the kneejerk defensive response. I think your comment has a lot of merit, and the "HP requirement" rhetoric should be toned down. I still think that an 18k tank in a heroic is just silly, but at 23k you'll be alright if you're healer is awake and reasonable.

Mctankor
09-28-2009, 05:19 PM
18-20k was where we WAS when the first tanks went into the northrend heroics and we made it through. It was how we needed to gear ourselves in the beginning of wotlk, remember?
People are just getting lazy and want to faceroll everything because blizz is making it way to easy to do so and thats starting to become a problem for people whos just dinging 80. People expect them to have way inflated gear to even allow them into the heroics they need to improve their gear and when they cant get into the groups, they cant get the gear either. That means their guild have to carry them and puging end up not being an option..

Jameak
09-28-2009, 07:02 PM
King Dread's bleed is more of a challenge to the healer and DPS than the tank imo. Sure you can pop CD's and survive a bit better for 20s but if the healer is not capable or the DPS is too low the bleed damage becomes overwhelming. I think it would be wiser to save CD's until later in the fight when the real pressure comes into play. Mangling Slash, Grevious Bite and Peircing Slash chain together to make him a power house. Positioning is important as well, as you want to do everything you can to ensure your healer is a max range so they avoid the fear from Bellowing Roar.

I still consider Xevozz the mage in H VH far more deadly due to the fact that if your DPS are in the wrong place at the wrong time (as they always seem to be when the fight involves moving) theres massive spike damage on everyone, a situation far more difficult to heal through than if the damage is focused on the tank alone. I wouldnt ask even a good healer to have to put up with this for longer than a few seconds before letting some DPS die to save the tank.

!3M
09-28-2009, 07:58 PM
I've thought about it a little more, and gotten past the kneejerk defensive response. I think your comment has a lot of merit, and the "HP requirement" rhetoric should be toned down. I still think that an 18k tank in a heroic is just silly, but at 23k you'll be alright if you're healer is awake and reasonable.

np :)
it was just my personal opinion anyway... on another note, I also think that us at tankspot giving opinions about how the group should have functioned as opposed to how it functioned during the wipe to be invaluable...

this would help new tanks who are trying to learn the ropes at getting a better feel of how group composition, coordination as well as positioning would help... that imho (again) is another trait that makes a good tank... i.e. tanking at the right spot, turning mobs who does a frontal AOE attack, or even getting out of 'Pound' from Anub'arak in AN

Reev
09-29-2009, 11:22 AM
King Dread's bleed is more of a challenge to the healer and DPS than the tank imo. Sure you can pop CD's and survive a bit better for 20s but if the healer is not capable or the DPS is too low the bleed damage becomes overwhelming. I think it would be wiser to save CD's until later in the fight when the real pressure comes into play. Mangling Slash, Grevious Bite and Peircing Slash chain together to make him a power house. Positioning is important as well, as you want to do everything you can to ensure your healer is a max range so they avoid the fear from Bellowing Roar.


Keep in mind that bleed doesn't happen in a vacuum. You're still taking normal melee swings. If you as a tank can toss up shield block or some other minor cooldown, you can help reduce the normal incoming damage significantly enough to make the bleed damage much easier to heal. Also, I think sometimes newer tanks don't realize he's calling adds during the fight that need to be tanked or CC'd as well. If you don't, it can cause trouble for the healer, especially during Manglish Slash/Grievous Bite/Piercing Slash.

Jameak
10-05-2009, 06:25 PM
Your correct, but the melee swings can be mitigated through armour and avoidance, the bleed damage can not. If the DPS are under-performing, popping your shield wall when the bleed damage begins to get uncontrolable will buy you precious seconds to live. I am assuming that as a tank you are already doing what you can to minimise the damage you take, this should involve holy shield, shield block, sacred shield etc. etc.
My position is that popping your shield wall at the start of the fight as someone previously suggested, is not the smartest thing to do, as it wont be available for when you really need it.

Reev
10-05-2009, 09:45 PM
Your correct, but the melee swings can be mitigated through armour and avoidance, the bleed damage can not. If the DPS are under-performing, popping your shield wall when the bleed damage begins to get uncontrolable will buy you precious seconds to live. I am assuming that as a tank you are already doing what you can to minimise the damage you take, this should involve holy shield, shield block, sacred shield etc. etc.
My position is that popping your shield wall at the start of the fight as someone previously suggested, is not the smartest thing to do, as it wont be available for when you really need it.

Right, you should always make an informed decision about Shield Wall and other cooldowns based on the fight mechanics. If you know there aren't any specific damage spikes, it might make sense to pop Shield Wall early and then later, but often you know when it's needed and should use it then. My point was that on that fight, you're going to get the bleed on you more than once, unless you have amazing dps. A lot of tanks forget that their minor cooldowns are significant too, and forget to use them. I'm just saying that because "the type of damage that kills you" isn't blockable doesn't mean that Shield Block won't help you. Not arguing with you here, just adding.

Mctankor
10-06-2009, 12:00 AM
For certain fights, such as onyxia, where the boss doesnt actually really "do much" (except a steady stream of hard, but very survivable hits) I dont have any problem with popping the shield wall CD very early. Infact in fights like onyxia it could be a good idea to pop shield wall while doing the pull to make its a bit easier to get in position. But yeah, its always about "knowing whats going on" if youre going to be able to plan the use of cooldowns..