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daves
09-16-2009, 11:32 PM
with the latest patch, defence on gear is gettin pretty high. i am wondering if it is worth the diminishing returns to keep all this def or start swappion out enchants for some stam. ie shoulders for stam res, shield 18 stam, chest 275 hp. i realize these are all worth way less in itemization. here is a link to my armory. thanks in advance.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dunemaul&n=Cuff)

Martie
09-16-2009, 11:39 PM
I'd keep checking up on how much avoidance you get before deciding that it's too much def, I like to keep it nice and high.

More def also means more freedom to equip those defenseless tank items that come by every now and then, so there's some freedom to choose gained there.

All in all, I've been shying away from def in my item enhancement these days, it's almost all about stamina at the moment.

Strit
09-16-2009, 11:41 PM
general rule is, you can't have to much defense.

But if you think you would be better off with other enchant on, say cloak and shield, then go for it. As long as you keep the defense minimum of 540 you should be fine.

Sample enchants for cloak and shield could be:
Cloak: 225 (i think) armor.
Shield: 18 stamina or Armor plating for the extra aoe threat.

Mookey
09-17-2009, 02:02 AM
You gem for stamina everywhere even ignoring pretty huge socket bonuses and then you use hodir shoulder enchant instead of 30 stamina from pvp...

28 expertise is not much too, altho it will come with more ToC gear but still you should be somewhere in 30-40 range, also hit is low and it's realy low on every potential upgrade, maybe start to get for socket bonuses (you will lose some stamina, but gain lot of other stats) Vivid (hit/sta) for yellow socket and Guardian (exp/sta) for red socket would make you notice improvements.

Have in mind that you lost 30 stamina with gemming for that same stat :D

That's 4 slots, if you gem them for 10x/15 sta you will
4*15+30= 90 sta + 40x
instead of 4*30 = 120sta

Ok you lose 30 stamina (get them with shoulder enchant so you will stay on same amount of HP after whole change), but in same time you get 40 points of either defense, dodge, hit or expertise to work with something that's valued by blizzard item budget for 60 stamina not 30

Ryoku
09-17-2009, 03:57 AM
I wouldnt agree with the expertise 28 is defenetly fine its 2 over the soft cap. Hard cap being at 56 is basicaly unatainable so dont waste your gems on that.

Mookey
09-18-2009, 01:53 AM
I wouldnt agree with the expertise 28 is defenetly fine its 2 over the soft cap. Hard cap being at 56 is basicaly unatainable so dont waste your gems on that.

I had expertise hard capped set in Nax25 lvl of gear with pants and trinket from Malygos25 and shield from Malygos10 being the biggest contributors, as he's done both ToCs 10 and 25 man items from there swim in expertise, so don't make "unattainable" comments please. Soft cap vs ~40 expertise is very big difference in both aggro and survivability.

Ryoku
09-18-2009, 04:29 AM
1 st you are speaking from a warriors point of view, for us expertise is not as important but rather hit rating (here a detailed analysis: Maintankadin • View topic - Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work) (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?p=474956&rb_v=viewtopic#p474956))

Furthermore I used wowheads item comparison tool to create a more or less BIS for a paladin: Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=48647:48648:48649:48650:48651;47436;47298 ;47076;47003;47955;47731;47451;45158;48699;47978;4 8011)

I did change the neck peace (to take the one with expertise) and did not take all of the items from the maintankedin list because i couldn't find them on wowhead. I get to a total of 177 wxpertise rating, which using (A list of useful Tanking Formulas for Warriors - Dodge, Parry, Block (http://www.tankingtips.com/tanking-formulas)) gives roughly 21 Expertise score. Adding the 6 expertise from talents we get to 27 a glyped seal of vengence or corruption gives us 37 which is still far away from the 56 hard cap. You will need another 160 expertise rating to get there. (=8 *
Precise Cardinal Ruby (+20 expertise)
So my comment about it being basicaly unatainable was quite correct

Furthermore I just checked out your claim about you being expertise hard capped in naxx 25 gear with the shield and the trinket:
Item Comparison Tool - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=40544:40545:40546:40547:40548;40475;40531 )
Don't know what the rest of your stuff was so cant make a complete analysis but with the stuff you gave me you got to 131 rating = 15 score +6 from talents, so you are missing 35 expertise score (286 rating) that is quite a lot

orcstar
09-18-2009, 04:54 AM
Before you go trading defense enchants for stamina enchants look where you can get the "best bang for you buck".
Let's say you have 1 defense gem slotted for 20 defense in a belt buckle and you have 20 defense on your cloak enchanted. Going for the 18 stamina enchant on your cloak in this example would be stupid. It would be much wiser to replace the 20 defense gem in your belt buckle with a 30 stamina one: the result would be same defense but higher stamina.

I could point it all out but veneritio wrote an excellent post about this (with non epic gem values: Should I Gear, Gem or Enchant for Defense? - Warriors - TankingTips.com (http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/05/11/should-i-gear-gem-or-enchant-for-defense/)

Mookey
09-18-2009, 05:43 AM
@ Ryoku
Your wowhead comparisions are funny because you are starting out from assumption that everyone have to have 5/5 set items and that they are BiS... well they are not.

Your "BiS" list indeed gives 20.45 expertise from where hard cap might look unatainable. Just adding chest from Icehowl pants from Jaraxus and add on top of it helm from badges. In order to keep bonus, keep two pieces of set (one of those to be shoulders), and you got aditional 22.

Just listing normal amounts
Towering chest: 8.42
Feverish pants: 8.42
Honorbound helm: 8.42
Total with 3 items: 25.26 + 20.45 = 45.71, tos in glyph+talents and you are capped :D

Ofcourse you don't need to be - as Orcstar/Satori said in many recent discussions - it's not about geting the "BiS", it's about geting most optimized gear for what you are doing.

And btw... don't try to trick my words, english is not my native language but still I know what I'm saying. Here is list of Nax gear for the list (http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=40475;40531;40545;40328;40297;39704;40718 ;40426;40387;40589) gives somewhere around 46 expertise - toss in +40exp food and several 8exp 12sta gems and you are close (I always missed cloak from Sartharion to fix that set 100%) but that was just remark, not reason for offtopic here.
(http://www.wowhead.com/?compare=40475;40531;40545;40328;40297;39704;40718 ;40426;40387;40589)

Ryoku
09-18-2009, 05:54 AM
First of sorry I missread your post about the Naxx 25 lvl stuff (i thought you meant t7,5).
For the english don't worry its not my native language either.

Now the 4 piece set bonus from t9,5 is very important for pallies because it reduces forbearence and divine protections cd by 30 sec (giving us a 50% damage reduction every minute) Thats y one would shoot for it.

And like I sad, expertise is not such a good threat stat for a pally