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bigboltrules
09-09-2009, 07:24 AM
I am respecing to a Heal/Tank Druid Build. I have some gear for Tanking, but I dont know what the best spec would be for tanking. Also, I have never tanked, EVER. Any suggestions would be welcome.

Liquidska
09-09-2009, 09:16 AM
If you are just starting out then you want a build somewhat like this. (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#0ZgGGscrzceRcczAkbA0z:zMnVcz)

A nice basic build with everything you need, there are a couple places in where you could swap points once you get a feel for what you want. Most notable switching Ferocity and Feral Agression. Also room to drop infected wounds if you raid make up allows for it.

The best thing that you can do is to make 3 macros for your maul. One for Mangle, Lacerate and Swipe. Have the ability cast normally just add /cast !maul to the end.

Ideally they look like

#showtooltip Mangle (Bear)
/cast Mangle (Bear)
/cast !maul

Just switch out mangle for Swipe and Lacerte. (I am doing that macro from memory so it may not work, dont remembre if it's Mangle - Bear or Mangle (Bear) ).

You want to keybind Feral Charge and Faerie Fire someplace convient, you will be using them a lot. Pull with one of these (and ideally both if you can swing it.) Ideally you hit the mob with Faerie Fire, Then charge it after it starts moving to you, the only thing to keep in mind is that your Feral Charge Immoblizes a mob in place. If you charger him then keep running the mob wont be able to follow.

If there is more then one mob. Spam swipe for agro, pretty much all you need. If a dps starts to pull on one guy mangle him but that *should* be all ya need.

If your fighting a boss, hit mangle, hit faerie fire if you havent, get your lacerate stack to 5, then spam swipe until Mangle or Faerie Fire is off CD or your lacerate stack is about to fall off. Since you are using the nifty macro you will be putting up maul everytime you got the range, and with your cool gylph you are hitting your target and something else close to your target. Free agro!

Quick and dirty way to bear tank.

bigboltrules
09-09-2009, 09:20 AM
Wow... thanks for the info. I have checked around and havent been able to find something this simple to start off with. Thanks for the info man.

Insahnity
09-09-2009, 09:48 AM
When speccing bear, you need to decide if you are pure bear or if you still want cat functionality. You may be temptd to think you would not need to go cat, but you can put out some significant (if not chart topping) DPS when your target is dead and your tank partner is tanking another target. Switch to cat and help DPS down. In addition, if there are encounters where only one tank is needed, you can almost match a full fledged cat with cat gear (yes there is a difference in cat gear and bear gear, namely pure agi vs agi/stam).

For a pure bear, the above spec has one item I dislike, which is 3/5 furor.
*Newsflash* RNG hates you. You will NOT have rage on shift 60% of the time, more like 30% of the time. Quite frankly, you just can't have that kind of uncertainty in the middle of a battle. 5/5 furor is pretty huge. To get the 2 points, I would move from Feral Aggresion to Furor, it's not a huge upgrade. Other points you can look at are Primal Precision if you have a lot of expertise, or imp LotP.

If you want some cat functionality, I would recommend the following, which still allows you to tank quite well
5/5 furor by moving from Feral Aggressoon
3x Imp Mangle move to 3x King of the Jungle
Pick up 2/2 Shredding attacks, either from Primal Precision or Imp LotP. I'd vote for Primal Precision, as you can make that up from gear.

Glyphing becomes a bit of struggle, it will be more of an issue with cat form than bear form, Maul is the only glyph that is mandatory whereas there are a few cat glyphs worth considering.

As for tanking, if you don't want to learn with little risk, go run regular instances, especially ones that exercise tanks skills like Culling of Stratholme. It's pretty easy if you have raid gear, and some 78+ lowbies levelling will appreciate having a good tank. Try it a few times, and then narrow down the question to specific areas (rotation, AoE threat, pulls,etc.). Unfortunately, tanking is largely a skill based on experience and conditioned reflexes.

Liquidska
09-09-2009, 10:03 AM
No worries, glad I could help.

What kinda gear do you have for Bear tanking? I would recommend running Violet Hold for the staff if you don't have that, also run AN a bunch for the Essence of Gossmer. It's just a plain silly amount of Stam. If you don't have a good shoulder, belt or back slot, leatherworkers can make good BoE ones. If you got some gold to spare, getting these can be a great place to start until you can get something nicer. (Trollwoven Spaulders (http://Trollwoven Spaulders) , Trollwoven Girdle (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43484) and Durable Nerubhide Cape (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=43565)).

I also noticed that you are a herablist, a smart idea is to bind your Lifeblood and Frenzeid Regeneration. If you gylphed for Frenzied then the extra +20% heals will also work on that. Turns 2 somewhat useful CD's in to a pretty powerful one.

For gems, Slot blue with stam, red with agi, and yellow with Hit / Stam.

Again, quick and dirty. After you feel you got a hang of it, go poke around in the guide by the Ensidia Feral Tank. (http://www.ensidia.com/home/guides/complete-feral/)


For a pure bear, the above spec has one item I dislike, which is 3/5 furor.

*Newsflash* RNG hates you. You will NOT have rage on shift 60% of the time, more like 30% of the time. Quite frankly, you just can't have that kind of uncertainty in the middle of a battle. 5/5 furor is pretty huge. To get the 2 points, I would move from Feral Aggresion to Furor, it's not a huge upgrade. Other points you can look at are Primal Precision if you have a lot of expertise, or imp LotP.

This is true, but if you are running out of rage in a middile of a battle, then your doing something wrong. Before a pull you may have to shift in and out of bear a few times until you get that 10 rage, if you hit enrage after that *poof* your up to 40ish rage after the ability finishes. More then enough to make a pull, once you are actually in combat everything should be hiting you giving you a costant rage bar. There is no circumstance in which you want to shift to elf while tanking, it's the equivlant to any of the other tanks suddenly tanking in cloth instead of plate. (The only exception to this is battle rezing some one, for this I always try to have an OT taunt off me real quick so I can do that. Innervate healers at your risk.)

I would not recommend having less powerful abilites so you can have a 100% chance of doing something that can get you 2 shot. (Plus, since you can only shift if you have mana, if you rely on this its entirely possible you can shift to many times trying to get rage and then OOM yourself and not be able to shift to bear at all. "Sorry guys, I was to OOM to tank." Really doesn't fly that far. )

If you ever have rage problem mid fight, then you want to either taunt something on to yourself or use enrage.

I do agree on the cat stuff though, I gave you a basic bear build that had no Cat talents at all. If you wanna be a cool druid then taking points out of Improved Mangle for King of the Jungle is not a terrible way to go. I wouldn't change your gylphs or anything for that though, tanking needs to stay your priority, any dps you can do after that is just a bonus.

Insahnity
09-09-2009, 10:49 AM
This is true, but if you are running out of rage in a middile of a battle, then your doing something wrong. Before a pull you may have to shift in and out of bear a few times until you get that 10 rage, if you hit enrage after that *poof* your up to 40ish rage after the ability finishes. More then enough to make a pull, once you are actually in combat everything should be hiting you giving you a costant rage bar. There is no circumstance in which you want to shift to elf while tanking, it's the equivlant to any of the other tanks suddenly tanking in cloth instead of plate. (The only exception to this is battle rezing some one, for this I always try to have an OT taunt off me real quick so I can do that. Innervate healers at your risk.)

I would not recommend having less powerful abilites so you can have a 100% chance of doing something that can get you 2 shot. (Plus, since you can only shift if you have mana, if you rely on this its entirely possible you can shift to many times trying to get rage and then OOM yourself and not be able to shift to bear at all. "Sorry guys, I was to OOM to tank." Really doesn't fly that far. )

If you ever have rage problem mid fight, then you want to either taunt something on to yourself or use enrage.

It's not about mid battle, you should never be rage starved mid battle under normal sustained battle (or at least, I never have). Having said that, I will combat rez and/or innervate if I am OTing and switching between targets (Take jaraxus, between spawned adds), and do get screwed by this problem. Taunt is not always the answer, as in 6 seconds you may not receive enough hits to get the rage while DPS is pounding away at the target your are acquiring for rage. Denying this flexibility is huge, I have even glyphed battle rez for full HP and have successfuly rezzed a dead MT, whereas my resto Combat rez has resulted in tanks dying after combat rez due to bad circumstances.

The beginning of the battle is key, and this issue has lead to a few wipes. Most DPS are trained to wait a few seconds before starting in, but they will NOT wait for you to shift 6 times before you get rage (yes, I have frequently shifted that often before it procced, causing some people to leave in frustration). Some say you pop enrage, but really that takes time too. In normal circumstances, I shift and charge in, in anticipated low rage startups I pop enrage before charge and then wail in. But I have had to rely on enrage a few times when shift has failed twice in a row but again, by the time you attempt 2 failed shifts and then wait for enrage to allow a charge, DPS has already started. Where I run, mistakes and problems like that aren't tolerated, tanks are supposed to be dependable. You can blame the DPS for not waiting, but the damage is done, the raid is dead because you didn't have the rage to do your job. If you can win that argument every time it happens, as it crops up often enough, keep 3/5 furor.

For me, OOM for shift is not an issue, King of the Jungle reduces mana cost of shifts by 60%. That's huge.

Liquidska
09-09-2009, 11:17 AM
But I have had to rely on enrage a few times when shift has failed twice in a row but again, by the time you attempt 2 failed shifts and then wait for enrage to allow a charge, DPS has already started.

Your the tank, you should be pulling, if the DPS are the first ones to hit the mob then their death is on them. I don’t see any reason why deeps should start if you haven’t attacked yet. I understand that on trash there is a flow of going mob to mob, but you shouldn’t be rage starved at the end of every battle. Maybe an occasional enrage here and there, but by and far you should not have to powershift at the start of every pull.



Denying this flexibility is huge, I have even glyphed battle rez for full HP and have successfully rezzed a dead MT, whereas my resto Combat rez has resulted in tanks dying after combat rez due to bad circumstances.

What glyphs do you use? We have 4 good glyphs that we need, only using 2 to make room for a sub par Rebirth glyph makes no sense to me. Again, this seems like catering to people doing dumb things, an extra 50% health to a B rez versus a 100% taunt or an actually effective cool down is no contest. You take the one that actually helps you tank. The person accepting B Rez’s has to pay attention to any AoE effects that they will rez in to, as well healers need to be ready to top the new person off. I don’t mean to come off mean but that really strikes me as a waste of a glyph. (especially since you should be the LAST person doing a B Rez)

bigboltrules
09-09-2009, 12:24 PM
Thank you guys for all the great info... I am looking forward to getting some tanking gear together and trying this out... thanks again..

Insahnity
09-09-2009, 01:09 PM
Your the tank, you should be pulling, if the DPS are the first ones to hit the mob then their death is on them. I donít see any reason why deeps should start if you havenít attacked yet. I understand that on trash there is a flow of going mob to mob, but you shouldnít be rage starved at the end of every battle. Maybe an occasional enrage here and there, but by and far you should not have to powershift at the start of every pull.

I'm not sure you are reading what I am saying, you are covering situations which I have not mentioned or have specifically said are a non-issue.




What glyphs do you use? We have 4 good glyphs that we need, only using 2 to make room for a sub par Rebirth glyph makes no sense to me. Again, this seems like catering to people doing dumb things, an extra 50% health to a B rez versus a 100% taunt or an actually effective cool down is no contest. You take the one that actually helps you tank. The person accepting B Rezís has to pay attention to any AoE effects that they will rez in to, as well healers need to be ready to top the new person off. I donít mean to come off mean but that really strikes me as a waste of a glyph. (especially since you should be the LAST person doing a B Rez)

You are assuming a pure bear spec, which from the onset I have stated is not your only option. I'm a hybrid cat/bear. Clearly, if I am MTing, I am not expected to Brez or Innervate, but as an OT there are PLENTY of times I can do both (and quite frankly, I have pulled off Brezes as the MT with NO negative consequences ever, you just have to know when you can and cannot do it). I am not the world's greatest bear (far from it), but if I can pull it off as frequently as I do, I'm sure others can too. Don't limit yourself to the tank only viewpoint, think of raid benefits.

As for rebirth glyph, it is not "50%". Rebirth restores 6400 health, which in ANY encounter worth mentioning means you can be one-shotted by just about anything (you can wait for aoe to subside but you can't always predict if you will be the next target of a boss attack for those that are capable of random strikes). The glyph brings you to full health, which even on the average clothie is about 20k health, more than enough for you to survive at least one hit and move on, after which the healers can top you off (And the benefits to a topped up 30k+ tank on healer mana and attention..?!). While it is not for everybody,it is quite powerful and has turned the tide on many encounters for me, bringing up healers, fellow tanks or high DPS from good players that encountered bad luck. I would take it any day over a taunt, which if you are properly hit capped, should never be an issue. What's left, after the only mandatory bear glyph, glyph of maul? Frenzied regen or survival instincts, both of which are just extras on oh-crap buttons to give your healers a bit more room. Frankly the extras won't change the outcome - Either your survive or you had no hope in heck to begin with even with twice the benefits. Great for MTs, but I fill the hybrid role, bringing great raid utility when I am not needed as a tank because I have downed my target and only the MT's target is left.

Liquidska
09-09-2009, 02:00 PM
The beginning of the battle is key, and this issue has lead to a few wipes. Most DPS are trained to wait a few seconds before starting in, but they will NOT wait for you to shift 6 times before you get rage (yes, I have frequently shifted that often before it procced, causing some people to leave in frustration). Some say you pop enrage, but really that takes time too.

Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are talking about, but I was referring to purely the start of a fight. Which, I thought thatís where you were going as well. I am just trying to understand why putting the 2 points in the talent when they are merely a quality of life convince for making a pull. Especially when itís at the cost of your actually used abilities such as Demo roar, doubly so when this is easily worked around by delaying your raid by 1.4 seconds with a power shift.

What I am looking for is a compelling reasons to 5/5 this outside of a pull. The rest of your talents are useful while you are actually tanking, why take this?


As far as glyphs, even if you are hit capíd, you still need the Gylph of Growl to get the full 100%. Frenzied regeneration by itself is not really a Cooldown, you might as well spam it when its up if you donít got it glyphed, Ďcause the damn thing wonít save you in an emergency ungylphed. 30% of your health over 10 seconds? YeeeeahÖ. Pass. Now toss +20% healing to it and we actually have a cool down!!

The same goes for SI, without the glyph SI is pretty good, but that jumps to amazing real quick. You are really going to look at an extra 15% health and turn your nose up? What if a healer is dead? What if 3 healers are dead? You could pop our of bear and B rez them and hope the lag doesnít interfere with dodging his swing timer, to give them that extra health, or you could pop this, rock 60k health, stay alive (your job) and give healers enough time to actually get their stuff together (their job).

Now okay, you are talking about doing OT. Which does change this, but I still view this as a loss of a cooldown. If you are not being asked to tank at that very moment, then you do have free time to do other stuff (such as B Rez / Innervate) but like you said, this is useful for rezing heals / dps / tanks.

Well, for tanks it really isnítÖif youíre the OT, and the MT dies, you shift to elf so you can b rez him? Letís hope whatever DPS next on threat is in plate Ďcause someone else is gonna die in the 3 second cast. For healers? Itís meh. Sure, they wonít get 1 shotíd by something random, but if they are paying attention the odds go down, sure they are random events in encounters, random stuff happens randomly, but a smart healer topís themselves off first thing after they get b rezíd. Your extra health didnít do them that good. For melee DPS I can see this, most bosses have some sort of aoe effect going on with dps, melee in particular, if your healers are too distracted with the MT then I can see having a fully topped off DPS would be practical. Is it worth loosing a cooldown though? I doubt it.


Frankly the extras won't change the outcome - Either your survive or you had no hope in heck to begin with even with twice the benefits.

Right, only pussy tanks need CDís for Phase 1 Mimiron.

Insahnity
09-09-2009, 03:02 PM
Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you are talking about, but I was referring to purely the start of a fight. Which, I thought thatís where you were going as well. I am just trying to understand why putting the 2 points in the talent when they are merely a quality of life convince for making a pull. Especially when itís at the cost of your actually used abilities such as Demo roar, doubly so when this is easily worked around by delaying your raid by 1.4 seconds with a power shift.

What I am looking for is a compelling reasons to 5/5 this outside of a pull. The rest of your talents are useful while you are actually tanking, why take this?


Co-ordinated tank pulls?

"Uh, Tank buddy, do you think we can take back that pull on Dreadscale? Is there a pause button on the "raid remote control" to stop the scripted event? I was supposed to take on Acidmaw, but after shifting 3 times, I still don't have rage to do anything, and now Acidmaw is snacking on the melee DPS. The DPS would have waited if the scripted event would have just not gone ahead anyways."

With the various twin and/or multiple bosses in the history of the game, its an indication that co-ordinated tank pulls will be a good part of every raid. You can't take back a your tanking buddy's pull which starts the fight. Scripted events don't help either.

Seriously, if it was just the occasional 1.5 seconds single GCD, it would be a non issue, I would agree whole-heartedly. I have (on several occasions) shifted FIVE TIMES with no rage (that's about 10 seconds including the innevitable Enrage to produce enough rage). In this business, we call that RNG or (F!) Random Number Generator biting you in the bear butt. Stop assuming this can't happen multiple times in a row at the worst possible moment. Quality of life improvements should not be needed to prevent wipes. Two points in Demo Roar? Definately quality of life, it won't cause raid wipes one way or the other. Primal Precision? Sure, you can take it or leave it, just gear for it if you don't, much like paladins take Tuskarr's over PoJ. But I am relating MY experience with RNG that leads to multiple raid wipes. Could it have been prevented? In some cases, Yes, DPS should know better than to pull before they see a bear charge in, I don't disagree. But a wiped raid is still a repair bill that I can potentially avoid.



As far as glyphs, even if you are hit capíd, you still need the Gylph of Growl to get the full 100%. Frenzied regeneration by itself is not really a Cooldown, you might as well spam it when its up if you donít got it glyphed, Ďcause the damn thing wonít save you in an emergency ungylphed. 30% of your health over 10 seconds? YeeeeahÖ. Pass. Now toss +20% healing to it and we actually have a cool down!!


At hit cap, your chance to miss is in the range of about 3-4%. In many of those rare cases you get bitten by the 3-4%, you can substitute a challenging roar and have tank buddy retaunt back some of it back off you. And that's not assuming you aren't slightly over hit cap, which sometimes happens with the gear you have on hand until you get upgrades. I still stand by the rebirth glyph in that case.



The same goes for SI, without the glyph SI is pretty good, but that jumps to amazing real quick. You are really going to look at an extra 15% health and turn your nose up? What if a healer is dead? What if 3 healers are dead? You could pop our of bear and B rez them and hope the lag doesnít interfere with dodging his swing timer, to give them that extra health, or you could pop this, rock 60k health, stay alive (your job) and give healers enough time to actually get their stuff together (their job).


We are dancing with the same defense, just using it to advance our own point of view. If our healers always had their stuff together, people would never die, and if they did they, could instantly heal newly brezed people. That argument is a double edged sword.

Incidentally, I can perform this apparent miracle without dying, strictly by timing it correctly, the skill part of this glyphing strategy. Can I do this in every occasion and save a raid consistently? Of course not, but it sure happens enough for me to go with it.



Now okay, you are talking about doing OT. Which does change this, but I still view this as a loss of a cooldown. If you are not being asked to tank at that very moment, then you do have free time to do other stuff (such as B Rez / Innervate) but like you said, this is useful for rezing heals / dps / tanks.


Ah, I think you have found my niche. I am exchanging my cooldown for a whole person, with their own cooldowns, etc., which could be significant (another druid who was killed before their brez is one example that comes up for me. Could it be a fellow feral who can brez and innervate a healer? Perhaps ANOTHER druid?). If you are a 100% full time MT, this is not the glyphing strategy for you, go ahead and max out your 2 CDs along with Maul.



Well, for tanks it really isnítÖif youíre the OT, and the MT dies, you shift to elf so you can b rez him? Letís hope whatever DPS next on threat is in plate Ďcause someone else is gonna die in the 3 second cast. For healers? Itís meh. Sure, they wonít get 1 shotíd by something random, but if they are paying attention the odds go down, sure they are random events in encounters, random stuff happens randomly, but a smart healer topís themselves off first thing after they get b rezíd. Your extra health didnít do them that good. For melee DPS I can see this, most bosses have some sort of aoe effect going on with dps, melee in particular, if your healers are too distracted with the MT then I can see having a fully topped off DPS would be practical. Is it worth loosing a cooldown though? I doubt it.


I can and do manage do go into elf form to brez, without even popping survival instinct. Can you do it with something beating on you? Possibly with barkskin+SI, but its not necessary most times. There's always a DK or pally that can handle the boss for the 4.5 seconds if executed well, use your vent to co-ordinate on the fly. And yeah, it's hell in the short term for the healers and the schmuck dps who gets to hold it, but it can be done, and happens succesfuly more often than you suspect.



Right, only pussy tanks need CDís for Phase 1 Mimiron.

Right, because not glyphing for it means you don't have no abilties whatsoever! Also, you assign your OT for the job too! We could never assign the Hybrid Feral OT kitty duties!

bigboltrules
09-10-2009, 07:45 AM
Once again guys, this is some of the best info I could have asked for... Awesome stuff...