View Full Version : 8o warrior looking for simple advice for my pea-brain

09-07-2009, 12:37 PM
I play for the comradship of my guild. I am the noobiest 80 around, and don't mind , as long as they don't. I am not the MT. I do want to get better ,and understand the why of doing something, but rl prevents me immersing myself in the math / rational as much as I would like. I have read many of the posts , many times , and still don't understand the % v actual v rating v howling at the moon. So .... any nice advice on talents / gear / gems would be appreciated :

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Eldre%27Thalas&n=Apochalypse)

I don't understand why mt block has become so heavy. Several months ago, the points were more like 21 /18 /26 block/parry/dodge. Now w new gear, def gems and whatnot ( patch) i am wat i am.

Anyway nice posts always welcome.


09-07-2009, 02:36 PM
Looks like you have a pretty decent setup to me. When you evaluate how good gear is don't put too much emphasize on Block values though when you compare equipment of similar iLevel, at least not for your main survival or threat set. Block usually competes with expertise, parry, dodge or hit rating on different equipment. I prefer the others, especially expertise.

You should most definitely get the 800+ armor enchant on hands though (engineering required). Indestructible Plate Girdle would be an upgrade for your waist (crafted item, if you can afford it). I prefer the +def on cloak enchant as well but I guess it depends if you are speccing for survival or threat. Consider changing the Agility gems for Stamina or Expertise.

As for talents, I would go with something lik this:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LAM00fZhZVItRx0zidIzsGo:dcbzmo)

If you glyph for Shield Wall you will want to get Improved Disciplines in there as well, perhaps removing that one point in Revenge and another in Vigilance or improved rage. Don't Rend as a prot warrior, thats for your arms spec. Go for 3/3 deep wounds instead.

Edit: I would ditch Glyph of Vigilance and Last Stand. After 3.2 you should use Glyph of Devastate to increase your threat. It easily outperforms your Vigilance. I also prefer to Glyph for Shield Wall (requires above mentioned change to talents), but thats is up to you really. Glyph of Revenge is another option.

As for Minor glyphs, TC and Charge are excellent. Mocking Blow is not, its an ability you use once every lightyear and when you do its to force the target to attack you, not because of the damage it does. Change with Glyph of Command (preferably), or Charge (second best).

09-07-2009, 02:56 PM
Thanks . Already changed gloves. I will look at others stuff.

09-08-2009, 01:55 AM
your attitude, I likes it. If you want to become better you will. take the criticism with the praise. Im tanking 10 ulduar and 10 toc for my guild and still get healers who whine about how fast I drop in heroics occasionally.
My advice is this, get someone who you know is the shit, run with them as often as you can and tell them to critique you. trust me thats one of the best ways to learn. personially I would get a tank mentor, those are always good and every tank should have one, no matter how good you are you can still get better!

09-08-2009, 09:00 AM
Expertise: You need more of it. Expertise is the #1 Tank threat stat, maintaining a minimum of 6.5% is like maintaining your defense cap. It's almost that important. Re-socket your red slots with Expertise / Stam Dreadstones.

Agility doesn't convert very well to avoidance in comparison to straight dodge for warriors. Don't itemize for it at all. If you really want to put avoidance into your red slots (over expertise) use dodge / stam dreadstones. Much better use of the item budget that way.

I would swap the enchant on your cloak to Defense so you can change one of those yellow +20 def gems to a green def / stam gem. That way you basically swap agility for stamina.

To be perfectly honest Block sucks for warrior tanking (outside of heroics/ raid trash where the damage is so low a block will stop the majority of inc damage. Basically as Incoming damage goes up Block becomes less and less useful. SBV is still valuable to cap as it boosts your TPS. However imho expertise is a better boost of tps). So don't concentrate on it. Dodge is better the parry the vast majority of time. (until you start getting into diminishing returns, your not close enough to start worrying yet) That doesn't mean don't take parry if it's more avoidance then a dodge piece your wearing; but all things being equal take dodge.

If you were going to buy a craftable upgrade I would purchase the Spiked Deathdealers before the indestructible plate girdle as your belt is better then your boots.

My personal opinion is 3/3 focused rage and 2/5 Shield specialization is better then 5/5 shield spec (it's not very clear-cut as to which is better, it's dependent on the situation). And place the imp. Bloodrage point in imp. disciplines.

In my opinion I would replace glyph of blocking, not glyph of vigilance with Glyph of Devastate. I would change glyph of mocking blow to glyph of command. (2m longer on commanding shout!)

Hope that helps!

09-08-2009, 10:18 AM
Cape change I understand and will do. I do NOt undrestand the agility v dodge issue. After the last patch, Guildys , including Pally MT suggested that I take all dodge gems out and respec w Agi, which I did , not fully understanding the why of it. As I understand it -- VERY BASICALLY- dim returns on dodge and the increased % of dodge to get avoidance made gemming for pure Agi more beneficial than pure Dodge. I do not know if that is warrior specific or not. In any event, my understanding is kinda inopposite to Drae's suggestions.

Note -- I would not have posted here if I wasn't willing to consider the posted suggestions. So -- before I go spend $$ / Badges on new epic gems, can Drae - or anyone explain --- in a littlel more discussion ( please not too much or you will be over my head) -- again for my pea-brain , why a Warrior wants Dodge gems V agi gems.

As to the block -- heck if I know how it got so High and out of proportion with the other stats. It just seemed to happen with new Her ToC gear and 1 or 2 pieces of Uld gear.
I will monkey around with expertise and see what happens.

As to glyphs -- Guildys are kind enough to give me some time to stack --- so I gotta think about the sunder issue. I am also considering all other suggestions, taking into account my belief as to how I play. As example -- in our raids, Prot Pally handles boss mobs / adds .. my job is too TRULY be meat shield holding Bosses until everyone can get there. Rarely am I tasked with holding more than 2 or 3 targets.... hence balancing benefit of expertise with something else that keeps me alive a little longer. At least , that's how I see my role. ( My posts seem top make sense to me, but may actually show my weakazz understanding of what is going on around me.)

Thanks to all who have posted,and in advance for any more. I should have been here a longtime ago , in the forums. Just putting some of this down in writing has helped me crystallize soem thoughts .. ie my role in Guild raids.

09-08-2009, 10:35 AM
And Gramaton -- I am always up for nice constructive criticism. At 47 , married w 3 kids and busy job --- tactless or rude ain't worth it. My Guild does not currently have a Warrior tank that I can discuss / co-run with. Thankfully the guild leaders are very helpful and as noted above, the MT is Prot Pally who is a great leader. He always makes time to discuss / work w me. Issue is Warrior specific things that no-one else can discuss. I can't run w other guilds , because of the need as OT.

However -- if you -- or anyone else replying are EVER on Eldre' Thalas, look me up and take me on a run. I am always willing to learn.

09-08-2009, 11:01 AM
Dodge gives dodge only. If you wanted to go nuts on dodge, that is the route to go. You are aware of diminishing returns, so you know why you don't go nuts on it.

Agility gives dodge, crit and armor. Overall, it gives more rounded benefits, but you should caution yourself against listening to a paladin. Paladins get more benefits than warriors on agility on the dodge aspect, because they lose out on some other things (which I don't think you want me to go into detail about, as pally mechanics likely don't interest you).

Before reading further, realize that you are below expertise cap (minimum 26 skill), which is critical to warriors, and the hit cap (264 rating).

To answer your question, here's what I would do:
-You don't have many red slots, and you are under expertise cap. Get to expertise cap with expertise/stamina gems. Hover at or a little above 26 expertise rating, don't use pure expertise gems.
-Put 16 defense on cloak, 22 defense on chest, and use the yellow slot(s) for hit/stamina gems wherever possible, and your belt should have 30 stamina. I know you hate math, but ignore the 540 defense, add up all the defense on your gear and aim for 689 or more defense from gear. That will get you to 540+ defense. I think you can get there without any pure defense gems, and you will pick up more stamina along the way (which is much better than 275 health).

09-08-2009, 11:26 AM
The math related stuff is easy to take care of; in your free time, just look up the coefficients for Dodge and Parry (I avoid Block like an angry man with a gun, waste of stat points currently.) Using the in game item comparison or even the Rating Buster addon will make comparing gear on the fly easy, and it Rating Buster will help you learn the math behind ratings and percentages.

Talent specs can vary a lot depending on what you do. For example, I now use an off tank spec for my Protection spec (the amount that I dodge compared to our Death Knight and Paladin even though my percent is higher than theirs has caused me to main spec Fury again) (ignore my glyphs for my off tank spec, I haven't switched them back from doing ToGC last night.) You can also go the standard 15/3/51 if you want some threat included. Biggest thing is playing it by ear, if you notice you need to cooldown more, then you may have to spec and glyph for it (hard modes.)

In the end, that is all the basic stuff. As a Warrior, your assets are your playstyle; you have Demo Shout, Commanding Shout, Intervene, Spell Reflection, etc. You need to know every mechanic of every fight, every spell that can happen, every add that can come out. Once you know what can happen in a fight, you can adjust what you do to benefit the raid more. For example, you have Charge, Intercept, and Intervene for mobility; the other tanks dream of having it. If a mob is running to a healer, but you are unable to taunt, Intervene the healer or charge the mob then Shield Slam it. Also, if you are not tanking (or even if you are depending on the boss), Intervene DPS that are high on threat. Lowering DPS' threat, keeping your Shouts and Thunder Clap up, and using your mobility to pick up adds is key to playing a Warrior.

My biggest advice would be to practice Charging, Intercepting, and Intervening whenever possible; join BGs and charge around from person to person, Charge a trash mob only to Intervene a ranged and Intercept back to that trash mob. Lastly, you need EVERYTHING key bound. Your mouse is only used for moving your camera angle (during boss fights, I am constantly spinning my camera around in a circle, so I can watch every single person in my raid; if an add is on them, I can see it going to them before it can get within range of touching them.) and targeting mobs and players; in the end, the absolute biggest impact you can make on your skill is not clicking a single spell.

09-08-2009, 12:10 PM
I understand what your paladin friend is trying to say; however, I disagree.

Agility does provide ore rounded benefits, in my opinion the net result is less until you are very deep into dodge Diminishing returns.

For example the 10 agi portion of the agi/stam gem in your gloves.
10 agility provides (Pre DR)
0.16% dodge
20 armor
0.11% crit.

I consider the crit% pretty much moot, as crit does very little even TPS wise. The real benefits here are the Armor and Dodge. Now that Armor, at your specific armor values, against a lvl 83 boss mob, reduces your total inc. damage by ~0.019%. That is not a lot. A 10 dodge rating dreadstone translates into .25% dodge (again before DR)

At your dodge levels I doubt the diminishing returns will reduce straight dodge to the point where agility becomes better. I wish I could take the time to add up all your stats so I could do the math for ya and confirm that estimate, but I do not. Sorry. (no sarcasm, seriously I wish I could! I'd learn more too!) I know you wanted it simple, but to answer this question yourself refer to: WotlK Diminishing Returns - Avoidance (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/40003-diminishing-returns-avoidance.html) See post #2. Basically run an example for each scenario and pick the option that returns the higher answer.

Useful Calculators:
Armor (http://rehfeld.us/wow/damage-reduction.html)
Vene's Calculator List (http://www.tankingtips.com/tanking-formulas)
Tankspot's EH calculator at the top of the page.

We also mentioned swapping defense enchants around in order to achieve more stamina. A very interesting post on this subject (which I just came across today) can be found here: Should I Gear, Gem, or Enchant for Defense (http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/05/11/should-i-gear-gem-or-enchant-for-defense/)
The post basically explains the best places to draw defense from in order to maximize stamina.

TL;DR: Until you hit much higher levels of dodge, agility is not better then dodge (at least for warriors) Of course the simple answer is to use Expertise / stam in your red slot. Being over the soft cap for expertise is VERY important.

*edit I hope vene's calculator is up to date!

09-08-2009, 04:07 PM
I am amazed by teh willingness of everyone to help, but more so to explain in terms i can understand... altho tables are what got me into trouble the 1st time.
My gut feeling was trading dodge for agi was sortening my lifespan in fights.

I will redo things hit Uld tonight and see if I feel any difference.

ALL GREAT POSTS and ....... best part yet........ nicely stated to not hurt my 1 feeling !

09-09-2009, 07:48 PM
OK OK OK Got belt , Re gemmed , Re chanted and Re specced ( kinda) 2 hrs 2000g too tired ... but hopefully able to play a little better by maximizing ( or maximizngish) my toon abilities. Now... if I could just re-glyph/gem/spec my own personal skill !!!!!

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Eldre%27Thalas&n=Apochalypse)