View Full Version : Avoidance or Mitigation? Toc 10/25 Norm and Heroic

09-03-2009, 07:08 AM
I am wondering if its time for me to start gemming and gearing for more mitigation (armor, stamina, shield block) or avoidance? I just picked up the 200 Dodge Libram, and wondering if i should cut some of my dodge gems out for more stamina or what... I am not having a lot of problems yet, but I am trying to get ready to start taking heroic toc 25 man...
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bloodhoof&n=Holynite)
(might not be showing libram since I just bought it last nite)

09-04-2009, 08:23 AM
Stamina. Stack it. Ignore block, enchant for armour where you can.

09-04-2009, 09:08 AM
Should i replace the hit gem and the dodge gems for 30 stamina gems?

09-04-2009, 10:28 AM
There are a lot of stun situations or insta gib situations in Heoric TOC where armor/stamina are better than avoidance. It's the favorable stat.

09-04-2009, 11:13 AM
Make sure you stay hit capped while you change out to Stam.
Obvious but stay Def capped and watch meta gem requirements.

09-04-2009, 11:56 AM
Ignore shield block (value and rating, both). There aren't many options for armor (cloak enchant, a few rings and necklaces, and trinkets like defender's code). For a paladin, the only one I would go for would be engineering only glove enchant, the rest have better alternatives.

Do stack stamina wherever possible, and keep defense at or slightly above 540. Expertise helps in a very small way too, keep it at 26 at minimum. if you want to shed some dodge, go for expertise/stam gems.

There are far too many debuffs/magic/armor bypassing boss mechanics for you not to stack stam wherever possible. Drop dodge/stam for pure stam on belt and gloves smithing prismatic slots, and even consider head slot gem to go hit/stam or defense/stam. Room for more 24->30 stam uprgades, and maybe even some more JC stam gems on upgrades.

09-04-2009, 04:49 PM
since im at 550+ defense should i take the shield defense buff off and put on stamina? there arent very many good yellow sockets but i want to keep my socket bonus for my helm.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bloodhoof&n=Holynite)

i havent changed the gems yet because i didnt know if i should fill most of my sockets with +30 stamina pure gems or a mix of parry stamina, dodge stamina, and maybe hit stamina?

09-08-2009, 01:16 AM
Im curious, why did you choose the worst piece of t9 possible to buy first?
Stamina all the way, red slots, dodge/stamina. Stam Stam Stam. Just use Def/Stam gems for your two yellows for the meta, and yes replace your shield enchant.

Also you wouldnt hurt to drop a little hit rating.

09-08-2009, 02:21 AM
Probably better in the HALP forum.


09-08-2009, 04:25 AM
Yeah, you really don't ever need to gem for Hit. If you're building a specific threat set you'll get more TPS per point of Strength than per point of Hit, even if you're below the hit cap. Expertise is also okay, but don't ever gem for it - just use the SoV glyph and let the rest come from gear if it does.

For your sockets, put pure Stam in any blue socket, plus anything with a poor socket bonus, then either Dodge/Stam or Agi/Stam for reds (depending on your preference - I choose Agi, personally) and Def/Stam for yellows. I'd define a socket bonus as "poor" if it's +6 Stam or lower or +9 or lower if there's two sockets and neither is blue (hello Tier 8 skirt).

You don't really need Hit Rating or Expertise gems in your MT set ever as those sockets are far better spent on something else. Your raid leader should be putting you in a group with a Draenei wherever possible anyway (if you're Alliance, of course) and you'll get an extra 3% hit on your taunts from a Shadow Priest or Boomkin. Use Glyph of Righteous Defense if you're really worried.

09-08-2009, 05:03 AM
As people have mentioned above, being hit capped is not essential, unless you're having major problems with threat. In addition, you're actually over the hit cap by around 20 points or so, not factoring in racial bonuses. You're a Draenei Paladin, so the most you need for being hit capped is 7% on the character sheet. Drop the hit gems and gem stam.

If you're looking for additional health, I recommend replacing your SoH shoulder enchant with the +30 stam +15 resilience PVP one.

09-08-2009, 05:39 AM
I grabbed the legs first because it was the biggest upgrade for me per slot.

As for gems, im way over the defense cap, and I want to replace the hit gem on my helm, should i go ahead and put defense/stamina anyway even though im already at 552 defense?

Should i swap the glove enchant out with stamina or just keep the threat?

09-08-2009, 06:05 AM
There isn't a "defense cap" - it is simply a minimum to make sure you can't be critted. You still gain more avoidance per point of Defense Rating than any other type so stacking it beyond 540 isn't necessarily a bad idea. Remember, Defense adds to Miss, Dodge, Parry and Block so it's no problem keeping it higher than the minimum :)

09-08-2009, 06:20 AM
You don't need to be hit capped, and at the moment you are above hit capped anyway by 1.81%.

This is how I would change your gems and enchants:
Helm: With a 12 sta socket bonus I owuld gem hit/sta or def/sta, seeing as you are way above hit cap def/sta is probably the better choice.
Neck: dodge/sta, agi/sta or pure sta, 6 sta bonus could be worth taking if you want to increase your avoidance a bit.
Shoulders: It really is a good enchant the Hodir one, only change this if you really want to increase your sta, and then the pvp enchant with 30 sta obviously.
Chest: with a 9 sta socket bonus and red and blue sockets you don't loose very much stamina taking the bonus. So another dodge/sta or agi/sta here would make sence.
Bracers: It's a blacksmith socket, pure stamina and a good place to put your jewelcrafting gems, since you will have them in the same spot in every set making gear swapping easier.
Gloves: Good geming, I would probably switch the enchant to either 18 sta or 240 armor. But that's up to you, armsman works just as well.
Belt: Another prismatic socket so another good place to put a jewelcrafting gem.
Weapon: Mongoose or Blood Draining, hit/crit doesn't really do that much, especially since you're way above hit cap. But again it's up to you.
Shield: Against what some people seem to think I would not change to the 18 sta enchant. 20 def is in my opinion far superior, unless you feel you desperatly need those extra 18 sta.

Basically this is my reasoning, stamina bonuses is worth taking unless you have to put more then 1 non stamina gems to get them, if it's more then 1 then it depends on the item and what you want it for.

Jewelcrafting gems in prismatic sockets, bracers/gloves and belt, that way you will have them in the same place in all your sets and swapping gear will be way easier.

Enchants is harder, but basically armor on cloak and gloves. Hodir enchant on shoulders unless you're hurting for hp in which case you should use the pvp enchant. 275 hp on chest. Bracers and legs don't really have anything else then sta and sta/agi. Boots it's either 22 sta or Tuskarr's Vitality (15 sta and runspeed). On shield I prefer the 20 def enchant, avoidance is always good and since there is no new sta enchant you can only get 18.

On weapon you have a few choices, Mongoose, Blade Ward, Blood Draining or Accuracy, I prefer Mongoose myself since it gives dodge, armor, crit and a tiny amount of haste and it does still have a decent uptime. Blade Ward does not seem worth it so far. Blood Draining is good, it gives the heal when you need it. If Mongoose wouldn't have the uptime it does I would prefer Blood Draining so to me it's a strong 2nd place. Accuracy can be good, 25 hit/crit is definitelly not bad. But compared to the other enchants I think there is better choices.

Agility seems to be a good choice for paladins, according to the ratingbuster addon paladins get way more dodge per agi then warriors do. I'm not entirelly sure about the numbers though so don't quote me on that. But it can make 22 agi on cloak and agi/sta gems something to think about since you also get armor and crit with it.

And finally to answer your title "Paladin Avoidance or Mitigation? Toc 10/25 Norm and Heroic". Yes, you want both in reasonable numbers. However, while stacking pure stamina in everything would work I don't think stacking avoidance would. The bosses hits to hard and with the stuns on Northrend Beasts and Anub'Arak you will take big bursts.

That's my opinion, hope it helps.

09-08-2009, 07:16 AM
You've skipped vindication in your build, in the last patch it was changed to reduce the AP of raid bosses, same as Tclap. Yes, other classes can provide the debuff for you, but there are many situations where the dps may not be on your target, and you will be the only one there to debuff the mob. I'd steal the points from conviction, or pursuit of justice (get tuskarr's).

09-08-2009, 07:25 AM
Agility seems to be a good choice for paladins, according to the ratingbuster addon paladins get way more dodge per agi then warriors do.

You might have RatingBuster set to assume self buffs - obviously a Paladin can guarantee Kings where a Warrior can't, so it scales Agi up by 10%. It's been a while since I've played with RB's settings, but I'm sure there was something like that in it somewhere.

On that note, however, that's ultimately why I choose to go with Agi over Dodge for my red sockets - the Kings scaling. While adding 10% to 140-odd Agi isn't much, it's basically a small amount of free avoidance, armor and threat whenever you have Kings up and obviously the nature of Kings is that the more of something you have, the more you get when the Blessing is applied. While small, the armor bonus makes Agi/Stam is the best red-matching gem for EH.

09-08-2009, 09:56 AM
You might have RatingBuster set to assume self buffs - obviously a Paladin can guarantee Kings where a Warrior can't, so it scales Agi up by 10%. It's been a while since I've played with RB's settings, but I'm sure there was something like that in it somewhere.

Paladins get more dodge from agil than warriors or DKs, but less than druids:

Combat Ratings at level 80 - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t29453-combat_ratings_level_80_a/)

09-08-2009, 09:59 AM
Thank you VERY much, i will be regemming today after VoA (hoping to get a piece of t9 or 9.25) I really appriciate your help. THanks