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Lirpa
09-02-2009, 05:28 AM
Just wondering what the best tanking libram is from Emblems from Hero all the way up to triumph and why? i currently have the heroism one but think I need to replace it. Thank you for your help in advance

Synapse
09-02-2009, 06:27 AM
Libram of Obstruction lasts one second longer than we use it's trigger, so you can rely on it to be up on normal situations, and most of the gimmicks'. Libram of sacred shield has a (irrelevantly) better uptime and less bv, so you'd want obstruction over it(i heard it'll be buffed up to par). The triumph libram offers 200 dodge rating and seems to have a reliable uptime. If there's other tanking libram I apologize for I do not remember.

Personally I'd rather have the 457bv from the libram than the 200 dodge rating, but that's arguable as it'll forever be.

Zothor
09-02-2009, 09:30 AM
Libram of Obstruction lasts one second longer than we use it's trigger, so you can rely on it to be up on normal situations, and most of the gimmicks'. Libram of sacred shield has a (irrelevantly) better uptime and less bv, so you'd want obstruction over it(i heard it'll be buffed up to par). The triumph libram offers 200 dodge rating and seems to have a reliable uptime. If there's other tanking libram I apologize for I do not remember.

Personally I'd rather have the 457bv from the libram than the 200 dodge rating, but that's arguable as it'll forever be.

It's not really that arguable. Block value is a relatively inconsequential amount of damage reduction compared to the spike damage taken in Ulduar and TOC, especially in hard modes. While the block value libram is a decent threat booster, it's not nearly as good as the ret-libram from Triumphs for threat (a practically passive 200 strength), especially as DR hits block value's contribution to shield slam.

I swear by effective health as much as anyone, but 3% dodge is a huge number.

There is, however, no "best" tanking libram. Good tanks swap their librams, trinkets, and potentially other pieces to fit the fight at hand. Some fights have difficult threat mechanics, some fights have primarily spell damage where the dodge would be useless, etc.

Synapse
09-02-2009, 09:38 AM
457 bv is 3,04% damage reduction against a 15k damage hit. 2,2% against a 20k hit. Based on how people get obsessed with armor, they really do seem to forget that BV does have a significant DR.

Zothor
09-02-2009, 10:56 AM
457 bv is 3,04% damage reduction against a 15k damage hit. 2,2% against a 20k hit. Based on how people get obsessed with armor, they really do seem to forget that BV does have a significant DR.

edit: to start... the reason people get obsessed with armor is armor multiplies the value of stamina. as you get more stam, armor gets more valuable. block doesn't.

Sure, but you're throwing numbers around in a vaccum. Start with the fact that block value is only a sure thing like armor if you're not stunned. Second healers have variable spells. THey will have to heal you if you block a 20-25k hit. They are almost -certain to overheal you by 500 damage, simply because there isn't that kind of precision on hots/bigheals/little heals, completely invalidating the 500 damage save unless it literally saves your life (which is rare, even with ardent defender). Whereas if you entirely avoid a hit, no heal required, healers save mana, regen more mana, have more time to do other stuff - like save other people.

Finally, the big one - if you want to thikn of block value as Effective health, go for it. I love effective health. But 500 block value is less than 2 stamina gems worth of effective health.... whereas 200 dodge is -ten- gems. It's simply drastically more itemization points that free you up to balance your gear elsewhere. It's efficient.

The only place block value is going to win as far as survival is on a very fast swinging boss, and very few bosses swing fast and small anymore precisely because of how huge an advantage that gives the shield tanks.

If you seriously care about block value there are plenty of places to get it where it won't cost you ten gems worth of avoidance.

Jameak
09-02-2009, 05:24 PM
IMO look at a WWS log of a boss fight and tell me your block doesnt contribute substantially to your overall damage reduction. A 3k block is still a 3k block, especially when your hit immune and are blocking everything that isnt a dodge/miss/parry. Granted none of us specifically stack it on our MT set, but it shouldnt just be explained away. The abillity to block takes the edge off the peaks during spike damage intake, in addition to providing extra threat to us.

Synapse
09-03-2009, 09:23 AM
IMO look at a WWS log of a boss fight and tell me your block doesnt contribute substantially to your overall damage reduction. A 3k block is still a 3k block, especially when your hit immune and are blocking everything that isnt a dodge/miss/parry. Granted none of us specifically stack it on our MT set, but it shouldnt just be explained away. The abillity to block takes the edge off the peaks during spike damage intake, in addition to providing extra threat to us.
Well, the big point about bv for pallies is that it can be EH, being commparable(in usability) to the DR in stuff like righteous fury or sanctuary.

Akeber
09-03-2009, 09:31 AM
IMO, LoO (heroic libram) for trash, heroics, anything that you overgear, or enounters where your threat is important like hard mode hodir. The LoD (triumph libram) is better for progression fights where your survival is in question.

dagimp007
09-03-2009, 09:38 AM
The Libram that give 200 Str is the best imo... in 3.2.2 it will give u 120 Spell damges as well as an increase in white damage (meaning u help kill things quicker and this will = the nerf in TPS) the new dodge one is best for aviodance BUT its gonna be about a 4-5% increase in dodge if your lucky so i am not to hyped on it, might pick it up just incase thoe

Zothor
09-03-2009, 11:13 AM
IMO look at a WWS log of a boss fight and tell me your block doesnt contribute substantially to your overall damage reduction. A 3k block is still a 3k block, especially when your hit immune and are blocking everything that isnt a dodge/miss/parry. Granted none of us specifically stack it on our MT set, but it shouldnt just be explained away. The abillity to block takes the edge off the peaks during spike damage intake, in addition to providing extra threat to us.

It's not being explained away, but there are limited choices in the libram slot. Your only 3 valuable choices are +block value, +dodge rating, and +strength. Of course block contributes substantially to your overall damage reduction... but let's do exactly what you suggest (it's a good idea) and look at a WWS log.

Comparing our block capped Paladin tank on XT last week, who doesn't hit particularly hard and happened to have exactly 101 swings (a beautiful number for playing percentages) in the fight he had:

Avg damage for landed hits: 10242
Blocks: 31
Dodges: 24
Dodge %: 23.8, so basically 1 dodge over the course of the fight per percent of dodge, which makes our math easy.

Total damage the Libram of Obstruction would have prevented: 352 per block, for 31 blocks, for a total of 10912 damage.

Total damage the Libram of dodgingwhateveritscalled would have prevented (an average of 3-4% dodge for most tanks after DR, let's assume the low side and call it 3): 3 extra dodges * 10912 = nearly 33000 damage. It's three times as valuable in reducing overall damage taken, and more importantly, the value of dodge scales as swings get bigger. The value of block does NOT. In TOC the dodge libram is going to be even better relative to the block one because the hits get bigger.

Lirpa
09-03-2009, 03:03 PM
ok, so another quick question.. excellent info all above guys tyvm... but to my question.. what is the Dodge/block/Parry % Caps before DR starts? Zothor prolly members me from other questions ive talked on here.. but since then Zoth ive tanked Uld 10m ToC 10/25 mans... 25 man only got to champs but 10m made it to anub..

going to get me the dodge one then and just swap my other one in/out for lesser areas i.e heroics and whatnots. triumph dodge for Uld/ToC is best correct?

Akeber
09-04-2009, 07:42 AM
3-4% extra dodge can make a HUGE difference. Ever since blizz announced avoidance was going to have DR it made many people beleive that it was less valuable to stack, this is actually far from true. Once you reach a certain range of avoidance, the chances to receive multiple hits in a row without a significant heal, which is what really kills tanks, diminishes drastically. There was a post (here or maintankadin, but I can't find it) that broke it down quite nicely how, as avoidance scaled up, it basically made the odds of being hit 4 times in a row very small. Adding a mere five or six percent to overall avoidance would push the chances of three hit in a row down to a very small number.

Stacking EH will only get you so far. The idea behind stacking to a certain level of EH, is to survive a specific number of hits without a significant heal. Unless you can get to the next "level" in EH to take another unavoided hit, avoidance can be much more beneficial than health in the short term.

Much of this depends on your gear level and encounter you are tanking. This underlines the reason to have multiple tanking sets because no one set of gear is perfect for every encounter.

Akeber
09-04-2009, 07:47 AM
going to get me the dodge one then and just swap my other one in/out for lesser areas i.e heroics and whatnots. triumph dodge for Uld/ToC is best correct?

Correct.

Diridin
09-04-2009, 08:01 AM
For me the difference between the 200 dodge libram and the BV librams is that with the new libram i am able to reliably ensure that every melee hit is either dodged, parried or blocked, which makes the BV i already have 100% reliable rather than adding more BV and having a chance that i don't block.

Mert
09-04-2009, 08:14 AM
Well, the big point about bv for pallies is that it can be EH, being commparable(in usability) to the DR in stuff like righteous fury or sanctuary.

I'm a Paladin but I disagree, since it still requires Holy Shield to be up. The moment you're stunned, disarmed, feared, run out of charges, mis-time your button press or just get a good old-fashioned lag spike, you don't get HS up 100% of the time.

Armor on the other hand will still be there if you walk away from the keyboard and go make a cup of tea, just as your maximum HP will be - in the absolute worst-case scenario, your health pool and your armor total will still determine your time-to-live. Unless you're passively block-capped (not even sure if it's possible with current gear and certainly not without gimping yourself horrendously elsewhere) there's no way you can say you'll be at 102.4% all of the time - even bosses where you know they don't disarm or stun or knock back or whatever can still give you an unblocked slap round the face if you suffer a bit of system lag or somehow miss the button.

To my mind, EHP is a measure of your time-to-live if you take anything that is chance-based (no matter how small or large the chance is) out of the equation.

Mert
09-04-2009, 08:21 AM
ok, so another quick question.. excellent info all above guys tyvm... but to my question.. what is the Dodge/block/Parry % Caps before DR starts?

DR doesn't start at a certain point, it is always there. For each point of avoidance you have, the very next will have slightly less. This grows with the more of the stat you have, but it's never without suffering from DR.

This isn't the form of DR the game uses, but for simplicity, let's say 1 point of Dodge = 1% chance to dodge. You have 1 Dodge (therefore 1%) and you find a gem that is +1 Dodge. When you add that gem, it actually only appies 0.99% chance, rather than the full 1%. So now you have 2 Dodge which is 1.99% chance and you decide to add another point. This time, the new point only adds 0.97% chance, so your total is 3 Dodge Rating, or 2.96% chance.

And so on. Right from the very first point of dodge, each additional point becomes worth less than the last.

Hope that helps :)