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View Full Version : Serious threat problems vs. other Warriors



Mačl
09-02-2009, 03:46 AM
Hi!

I'm quite desperate.

Yesterday(after 3Manning Ony for oldschool Quel'Serrar, yay!) I decided to pick up some easy badges in Violet Hold.

Proudly I presented my Quel'Serrar to the group(I was REALLY happy about it) when in turn an Arms Warrior proudly presented his iLvl245 axe. Half jokingly I told him I wouldn't interfere with his own private mob.

On trash I did indeed regularly lose a mob to him which is no biggie. He could take the punishment and the healer was bored anyway. Still. Taunt, SS, Devastate, Revenge(and a couple of HS) and the mob turned back to him. That's frustrating.

What I still consider a biggie is how he managed to snap Cyanigosa away from me.

After a teleport(which I think involves an aggro reset) I immediatly SS her, got one devastate through followed by revenge and another SS. I had her and directly after the SS she turned on him. Took me 3 seconds to get her back just to lose her again. It was a constant struggle.

After the fight I studied the data Recount had gathered for the fight. I expected him to pull 5k+dps given how much I had to struggle. He had a whopping 2.4k DPS.
Then I took a look at my data. Top damage(in that order) came from SS, HS(only 25% white hits, I had plenty rage), Revenge and Devastate. The only GCs I had lost where when we got ported. I had 1.4k DPS.

My gear is mostly badge stuff. I'm close to 8% hit. Expertise had suffered a little bit during my last upgrades(11 expertise), but I only got one HS parried once and never doged according to Recount. Could also be the other way round. Dodged once and never parried. My last upgrade(which cost me my expertise) was the badge leggings with block which I picked up for extra threat.

The only stuff on my gear that's lacking ist Red Sword of Courage(never got the new chainsaw sword) and the CoT4 shield. Everything else apart from boots, belt, trousers and trinket is closer to iLvl226 than iLvl213.

Please tell me the guy was an idiot(kept standing in the blizzard which did put him to 1/3 of my damage taken in that fight) and things will improve when I finally get hold of Last Laugh and the Kel shield.

I'm seriously considering speccing back into Vigilance which I had kicked in favour of Deep Wounds(typically 3-4% of my DPS).

Here's my armory
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Die+Silberne+Hand&n=Sazuko)


N.B. I know I have overstacked on defenseive rating. I'll be losing 60 def rating when I get hold of the new iLvl219 sword(no def on that) because I will put titanium plating on my shield once it decides to drop. And I gemmed my iLvl200 stuff with the cheapes gems I could get hold of due to money issues.
I do not have any ambition whatsoever to MT in raids. I still want to be the best tank I can be.

Advice please.

Bulk
09-02-2009, 05:04 AM
I cant imagine running anything with out vigilance now - I have it glyphed also. Baring a rouge or someone going full out single target DPS when I'm trying to AOE tank a group of 4-5 I almost never loose threat and absolutly never ever on a single target pull (bosses etc) - I even had a comfortable 15-10% threat lead doing hard mode hodir the other day, which I was quite happy about.

The spec I'm using is this: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Silvermoon&n=Bulk&group=2)

It's probably not one of the recommended specs but it works well for me, and I still get benefit from both DW and vigilance.

Now, only the subject of your gear - you are very low on expertise and that will affect your threat a great deal - if you can get to 26 a mob can no longer dodge your attacks. Your HP is decent so I think you can afford to replace those 24 stam gems with expertise/stam gems (and certainly replace the parry/stam gem).

Mačl
09-02-2009, 05:12 AM
Yes, I only put in those gems into the iLvl 200 stuff because they were bargains. Got that Parry gem for like 5g. LOL. I plan to replace most of that stuff this week an I'm already preparing for serious gem/enchant shuffling when I get my new tank weapon.

As for vigilance, I'm only missing it whenever I run with a dps warrior. Or in situations when DPS can't decide on a mob. In the former case, vigilance might help, in the latter case it's just group fail. I'can't see how I can counter stupidity with a spec. I always had Vigilance on the wrong DPS which got me frustrated with it in the first place.

Since I'm not entirely sure about Deep Wounds I wil spec back into vigilance this weekend.
If I can still afford respeccing by then, that is :(

uglybbtoo
09-02-2009, 06:03 AM
You have 1 pt in last stand which is what a help maybe this migth save me if it ever does ... Vigilance more important than that IMO.

Athenodorus
09-02-2009, 06:13 AM
1) I notice that you are not using the Devastate glyph. With its recent stealth buff, it is an enormous threat source. The HS glyph is worth less, IMO.

2) Glyph of Thunderclap is generally considered to be a big help for tanking groups, especially those containing casters due to spread. I'd drop either Battle or Command for it, whichever you use less.

3) You want Vigilance. Taking a point out of Shield Spec may be the way to go. (Losing Last Stand is a big no-no IMO.)

calizon
09-02-2009, 06:30 AM
Yes the problem i see with your gear is 12 expertise you need to get that up first and foremost. That is gonna cause your threat problem as well. As well he might have been arms and popped his cooldowns which will pull threat off any tank really.

You need to get more expertise like now get it up to in the 20's at least. 26 is soft cap that is what you aim for.

Mačl
09-02-2009, 06:43 AM
Yeah, I'm not too convinced about the HS glyph myself. To be frank, I'm not too sure about the Revenge glyph, either. Only caster mobs get me rage starved and in that case neither glyph is doing me any good.

As for tanking groups, we'll it's all in the pull. You know, charge one caster, heroic throw another and taunt a third. That's the plan and it sometimes even works. If that goes wrong I just proactively yell at everybody to cover up my ineptitude. If there's gonna be flaming just make sure it's you who starts it. Loudly.
Seriously, AOE tanking isn't a problem anymore. I used to carry the glyph of cleaving in my second tank spec(even specced up to cleave in fury) but I dropped it.

Last Stand is a keeper. Even if it is just to cheat with enraged regen. And it saved my posterior a couple of times.
/waggle

I like shield spec. I think I will drop deep wounds. It's not that impressive with Red Sword of Courage. In fact, I'll use Bulks spec.

Griff
09-02-2009, 10:37 AM
Do not underestimate the efficacy of the 3/3 deep wounds/cleave combo when you're specced into incite. A combination of tab targeting, cleave, thunderclap and shockwave is pretty effective for aoe tanking and if you're running heroics, a much better use of your talent point than 5/5 shield spec. A 1% chance to take 1.5k less damage per hit and 1 extra rage per avoid in exchange for 16% more damage per tick on your dots? More dots!

Musclebound
09-02-2009, 11:15 AM
Do not underestimate the efficacy of the 3/3 deep wounds/cleave combo when you're specced into incite. A combination of tab targeting, cleave, thunderclap and shockwave is pretty effective for aoe tanking and if you're running heroics, a much better use of your talent point than 5/5 shield spec. A 1% chance to take 1.5k less damage per hit and 1 extra rage per avoid in exchange for 16% more damage per tick on your dots? More dots!

A point in shield spec doesn't increase the amount of rage you get per avoidance. It increases the chance that you'll get 5 rage when you avoid/block.

I've never used cleave for AoE tanking. Keeping thunderclap and shockwave up and tab around to spread my single target abilities has always been plenty of threat, even in 5 mans with casters pulling 3-4k dps. But then, I'm a control freak and I hate that you never know exactly who cleave is gonna hit.

*edit* to answer the OP, buffing your expertise and using vigilance will probably help majorly with your threat issues. If I understand correctly, you don't plan on running stuff beyond 5 mans, so stacking stamina isn't going to net you a huge benefit. Replace some of those stamina gems with expertise and stamina gems, put expertise enchants on your gear wherever you can, and see if that helps. People want to run heroics fast, and with as weak as most mobs hit even in the harder heroics, you're better served by boosting your threat and dps.

Griff
09-02-2009, 11:47 AM
I've never used cleave for AoE tanking. Keeping thunderclap and shockwave up and tab around to spread my single target abilities has always been plenty of threat, even in 5 mans with casters pulling 3-4k dps. But then, I'm a control freak and I hate that you never know exactly who cleave is gonna hit.

There's a reason why cleave was included in incite - cleaves regularly crit for 1500, and leave nasty bleeds, does it really matter who they hit? Its not like we're using CC in a heroic these days. What do you do about thunderclap, its much less discriminate about its targets than cleave.

Meythos
09-02-2009, 12:02 PM
Hello Mael,

I looked over your spec and armoury and the number 1 thing that jumped out at me was that you are listed as having 12 expertise. The soft cap is 26. You'll find that pound for pound, expertise is an awesome threat stat to stack up to 26 and decent after it. I'm not sure what food you use to buff when tanking but I've found that Rhinolicious Wrmsteaks are fantastic (+40 Exp, +40 stam). If you have a WWS or Recount parse look to see how many dodges were happenning.

After that I'd reccomend the devestate glyph over the heroic strike glyph.
Have fun
M

Mordigen
09-02-2009, 12:11 PM
The devastate glyph with the new buff to it does wonders, if you are having issues, then I would definitely go with vigilance. I have had an easier time with threat as of the last patch in heroics or 10 mans, and I have not even glyphed into devastate which I plan on doing for the 25 mans and such. It might have been a fluke incident, do you know this warrior? Is it possible he was mocking blow or taunting or something? 2400 dps seems a bit low to be pulling aggro that easy but I could be wrong.

Musclebound
09-02-2009, 02:15 PM
There's a reason why cleave was included in incite - cleaves regularly crit for 1500, and leave nasty bleeds, does it really matter who they hit? Its not like we're using CC in a heroic these days. What do you do about thunderclap, its much less discriminate about its targets than cleave.
Thunderclap can be reasonably depended on to hit EVERYTHING I'm tanking, and that's the difference. Plus I feel that hitting heroic strike as im tabbing around is still causing more threat than using cleave.

To illustrate :
My average (non crit) Heroic strike hits for ~1126 damage (rounded down)
My average cleave hits for ~ 889 dmg. Obviously cleave is going to cause a bit more damage.
Going by the threat values in satrina's thread (and apologies if my math is off but I think i understand the calculations correctly) Heroic strike causes damage + 259 threat modified by defensive stance multiplier (2.0735 if you use 1 damage = 1 threat) and Cleave does damage + 225 threat modified by the stance multiplier, but then DIVIDED by the number of targets hit.

so a little math shows that my HS causes, on average, ((1126+259)*2.0735) = 2871.7975 threat on one target, while my cleave will generate ((889+225)*2.0735)/2 = 1154.9395 threat per target. Guess which one I'm going to choose?

Muffin Man
09-02-2009, 02:41 PM
You're missing something with cleave. That 889 dmg on both targets not total. So it's 2 melee attacks in one and closes the gap a little. Cleave is fine and dandy for aoe tanking. HS is more rage efficient and will outhreat cleave still so if you're comfortable tabbing around then HS is the way to go. I actually tanked 2 weeks with cleave off my bar to train myself to tab target.

Cleave still has it's place, when we're not AoE-ing everything down and I just want to keep aggro off the healers (ie, I got XT-002 and a Pummeller, I'm just gonna cleave every now and then). Also, it spreads the threat out faster than HS, so if the AoE-ing is fast and furious I'll use it.

@OP - I know you have your answer already, but I'm curious what was your dps on Cyanigosa? If it was around 1 or 1.2k then there are some things other than vigilance you could be doing.

That said, Arms warriors have lousy threat multipliers (1.25 on Execute, wah?) and can usually open up a fight with a lot of crits (Warbringer and OP are just about guarantees) so it's not too unusual for them to grab early aggro even if they do lousy dps.

Griff
09-02-2009, 04:14 PM
You probably didn't need to resort to math to convince me that you can generate aggro more effectively against a single target. However, when I'm tanking multiple mobs, I like abilities that let me (and here's the key point) hit more than one mob at the same time, with the same attack. Sure, heroic strike generates more threat against each target after you tab to and then hit the target, but that's at least three GCD.

Meanwhile, my, glpyhed cleaves hit three targets and my cleaves hit for around ~1k, toss on the 75 innate threat modifier and all I've done more than 3k threat spread across three different mobs in a single GCD. Which do you think I'm going to use?

P.S. Please excuse my potentially inaccurate estimate mathses.

Musclebound
09-02-2009, 05:21 PM
I guess the point I was trying to make was I feel it's better to hit mobs one at a time with high threat abilities than by spreading relatively weak threat across several mobs at once.

Sorry for the derailment.

Timberton
09-04-2009, 12:06 AM
I feel it's better to hit mobs one at a time with high threat abilities than by spreading relatively weak threat across several mobs at once.



Now the dps warrior charges just as you reach the mobs, and pops whirlwind in a pack of 4 mobs. Yaaay!

Ok, i'll be quiet now *goes back to the den*

Musclebound
09-04-2009, 12:14 PM
Now the dps warrior charges just as you reach the mobs, and pops whirlwind in a pack of 4 mobs. Yaaay!

Ok, i'll be quiet now *goes back to the den*

I run with a dps warrior all the time. Never had that problem :D

But assuming I ran with one that stupid, he'd die pretty quickly and I'd pick the mobs back up from him. Doesn't matter what class you play, you can't hold aggro on stupid.

Synapse
09-04-2009, 12:57 PM
I run with a dps warrior all the time. Never had that problem :D

But assuming I ran with one that stupid, he'd die pretty quickly and I'd pick the mobs back up from him. Doesn't matter what class you play, you can't hold aggro on stupid.That quote is appropriately appropriated for my sig, thank you very much.