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Hogie
08-19-2009, 10:18 AM
I have been with my current guild for just over a month now, and have already been pushed into Raid Leader role as they had never done even Naxx10 before. We have a few core people that go to every raid attempt (we are on the 3rd naxx10, with last week's a total clear for the first time).

We have been bringing anybody that's 80 along as long as we had the tanks / healers. These have been strictly guild runs. How do you guys deal with the 12-16 year old players that want to roll on everything because they "need" it, and will not be quiet even after I call out "Clear Vent". For the most part, all of our guys figure out who needs a drop more than the others in the raid, and give it to him, but we have a couple that fill in dps slots that want to roll on DPS gear and tank gear and 2 handed staffs they can not use and wands because it would look pretty.

Since it is casual raiding, and it isn't a set group of people (besides the healers / tanks, its pretty much first sign-up/first serve), it would be hard to do dkp, and I am just trying to get them use to raiding before we try to move on to other places.

Last night I did actually override the loot rules to give a tank gear which she was entitled (one of the "roll on everything" dk dps wanted the gear, because he only had "pvp tank" legs, while this tank was still in blue legs), but I do not want to do that every time. I hate loot issues, and I know guilds get torn apart by them.

For the most part, we have been doing mainspec rolling, then offspec rolling if nobody in mainspec wanted it. And if you came into the raid doing your offspec, you could either declare that you are rolling for mainspec or offspec (ie, one of our DPS druids is also a new tank, and the tank is his mainspec now, but he might be dpsing until we get him more gear).

Now that I am done rambling, any suggestions on how I should proceed?

Lizana
08-19-2009, 10:21 AM
Set loot rules, stick with loot rules no matter what. You need to set up loot rules to stop people from taking loot from those who deserve it. No DPS should ever be able to "declare" that they want tank loot over tanks....

Hogie
08-19-2009, 12:31 PM
It isn't just the loot (we stuck by the Main spec stuff), but its the annoying people that just are really a waste of space.

I go by the lines of thought that people aren't geared because others wont take them places. Because of this, I find it hard to kick an under geared person, just because he's annoying in vent / in raid. I do outline my rules when people join the raid when someone else dropped out (my main one is don't get in-front of me when we are pulling trash / bosses, or I'll let you die before I pickup the mobs).

With this type of content (naxx10 of all things), and wanting to move on to uld10 someday, should I start getting them use to a point system for loot? Would that really help step up people showing up all the time? Only 2 of us have been to every raid so far, and we both need nothing from naxx10/25. Maybe I should just lump master looter on the other officer that shows up and keep the raid moving.

Meythos
08-19-2009, 12:43 PM
If people are going to be tards, designated a master looter you trust. Set your rules and then stick too them ruthlessly. Give the people who are being noisy in vent 1 warning and then boot them the second time around. With luck people will get the picture and settle down to business. It only takes one jabber-jaws to turn vent into a gong show.

You don't need to be a jerk. Just be firm and stick to your guns.

Guede
08-19-2009, 04:19 PM
One thing you can do with the people who can't keep thier mouths shut is give em a couple warning. If it doesn't work the administrator of your vent server can Global Mute em from the server. They can hear but not speak.

Silence can be golden.

Far as loot goes, that can be tricky depending on the folks you have. But one thing ya wanna to do, specially if you want to hit 10m Ulduar, is make sure the right person is getting the right gear. IE your Main tanks getting the tank gear and not someone who thinks they want to tank. I've always gone one by a rule of if your there as a tank .. you have dibs on tank gear ... same for healers and DPS.

vine
08-19-2009, 07:58 PM
If people are going to be tards, designated a master looter you trust. Set your rules and then stick too them ruthlessly. Give the people who are being noisy in vent 1 warning and then boot them the second time around. With luck people will get the picture and settle down to business. It only takes one jabber-jaws to turn vent into a gong show.

You don't need to be a jerk. Just be firm and stick to your guns.
This, this, this...

Razgon
08-20-2009, 02:02 AM
A reward system for showing up to raids could do the trick. Most, if not all, people raid because they want loot and entertainment. Getting loot and upgrades is always a "feel good", even for HC raiders. The mainspec / offspec rolling is a fair way to go, but there will always be someone who raids once in a millenia who snags BiS loot. :(

Use warnings, a 3-strikes rule is a good one, kick and replace if possible. Or dispand and let them sort themselves out.

If your guild is stuck on Naxx 10 and you're geared for Naxx 25 or uldu 10 .. go heroics instead. Get conquest tokens and buy yourselves ilvl226 gear and find a more raiding orientated guild. :)

Hogie
08-20-2009, 09:14 AM
I have been getting conquest tokens, when I can. I wish there was a way to turn Heroism into conquest since they are the same thing now (220+ still on this char from before 3.2).

I think I am going to start being more stern with work on bringing in a reward system in for loot. By tracks who is there most of the time, we can get them geared before the people that login once and end up wiping us (DK did it this time....). I just want to enjoy playing, and not worry about raiding 3+ times a week then having to keep gold on me for repairs. Taking it easy is how I want to go from here.

Fayre
08-21-2009, 04:59 AM
Some of the 'jerks' can just be youngsters who are excited about raiding. Often they don't really think before opening their mouths. You might think the best thing is to never raid with them again - in actual fact often they can be molded into more likeable raiders over time. It depends if you mind playing the authority figure. They have to learn that actions have consequences.

Kraul
08-21-2009, 05:54 AM
A couple of things. I'm in a guild that's similar to you in make up, we're just slight farther along in raid content. but not much.

But I'd say that if you truly are a casual guild that raids, the points systems, DKP ect will not attract people to your raids, it will most likely scare them away.

We set fairly easy minimums to be able to enter a raid as far as gear goes. Then it's pretty much first come first served from the sign ups.

As for loot. We go with Main spec then off spec. But then we have added a rule that will take care of your 12 year olds rolling on everything.

It can get a bit complicated to keep track of, but it has worked fairly well for us.

here's the rule.

"raiders are only allowed one CONTESTED epic per run".

Contested is the key word here. we use ML. If two people roll on an item, the person that wins it will not be allowed to roll (or thier roll will be ignored) for any other epic that drops where someone else rolls against them.

So if no one else wants an item, you can get a second epic. Or if someone wants it only for offspec and it's your main spec, you can still get it.

The only other wrinkle is when you get 2 people who both have gotten one epic. then it goes back to who had the highest roll.

This rule accomplishes two things our guild had issues with #1) People have to think about what they really want and can't just roll on everything that "looks pretty" ie your 12 year olds. #2) one person doesn't get lucky with the RNG one night and walk away with 4 pieces of gear while somone else sits there getting nothing. This especially helps with "but there will always be someone who raids once in a millenia who snags BiS loot." at least that "seldom raider" won't get a bunch of peices.

lastly for Master looter. We always try to have an officer who is a DPS do ML if possible. That way the tanks andhealers can take the rest of the DPS forward to work on trash while the ML is distributing loot. We tell the raiders "keep moving, but if yu need to look at the stats on the loot, that's fine, you can ignore the trash for that time" we've found that takes a lot of down time out of our raids and we can clear naxx 10 now in just over 3 hours.

hope this helps.

Xaric
08-23-2009, 12:23 PM
A couple of observations; first and foremost is that getting a guild to make the jump from "totally casual" to organized-anything is a tall, tall order. You're attempting to take a group of people who may or may not be more focused on the individual and asking them to put the group before themselves.

A big thing that stuck out in your previous posts:

...I go by the lines of thought that people aren't geared because others wont take them places...
People who say they want to raid and are severely under-geared are that way because they won't put in the effort, not because other people won't take them places. And THAT is a sign of a person who doesn't really want to raid, they want to be carried. One of the most basic and most necessary things a Raid Leader must do is set minimum standards of performance. If a person cannot be relied upon to put in a little effort to run some heroics and get some badge gear - especially now - then what value are they bringing to your raid? Set minimum standards and enforce them. Naxx10 is not where you go to get geared for Naxx10.

Vent -
I set very simple guidelines for Vent.. have a good time, but don't make me mute you. The RL sets the example.. too much chatter and joking around from the RL makes it difficult for people to distinguish when you want them to listen and when you're just screwing around.
I don't want to hear any crap about Rez's, buffs, rebuffs, mage tables, or repair bots in vent.. keep that stuff to raid chat. If you're not integral to the fight that's going on or don't have a reason to talk, then stay quiet. One reminder is all you get, then you get muted.. plain and simple.

Loot -
Point systems tend to work decent as an incentive to raid, but it assumes that you've got a guild of people who *really* want to raid on your hands. Most often what happens when a guild starts trying to cross over is that you've got a small group of people dedicated to the change and many more people who are at best ambivalent about more serious raiding. Also, there's a hidden cost to point systems - someone has to manage them. We have a point system for our 25 man raids and progression, but our 10 man raids use a simple Need/Greed/Open system where each player is allowed to win 1 Need, 1 Greed, and unlimited Open rolls per evening. Raid Leader and guild officers step in where necessary and are also keeping track of who won what. Headcount (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/head-count.aspx) is a great addon for tracking who won and if it was Need/Greed/Open.

Lastly, some observations about Raid Leading in general -
As RL your responsibility is not to make sure everyone gets a trophy, or a piece of gear, or a chance to raid, or goes home a winner. Your responsibility is to the raid group as a whole; to put together the group with the highest chance of success, to make sure that everyone in your raid group can pull their own weight, and to always keep in mind that your decisions affect 9/24 other people. Your job is to set your raid group up to succeed rather than to fail - and to bring along people who need to be carried into your guild's progression raid is setting them up to fail. That's a good way to lose your serious raiders.

It's a long road, and sometimes painful. Many guilds never really make the jump, and many realize along they way that they really weren't as serious about raiding as they thought they were. Raiding is about organization, commitment, and structure. If you're guild is not ready for that then you have to decide how to approach the issue. The worst thing you can to is try to force a square peg into a round hole, because nobody wins there.

Good luck!

Crystalhaze
08-27-2009, 12:36 AM
I was recently, within the past month, put into the role of raid leader as well. And the first thing you realize is, it is no where near as easy as it seems from just a raider's POV. Control is a big issue. Our guild is mainly people 25yrs old and over. I am 22 and still in college. You can see the potential for problems here. I found that having a second in command is very helpful to deal with the stuff you can't handle (because no raid leader lasts long doing everything). I hand him the reins on loot, invites to raid, marking targets, etc. I deal with the issues of the fight, strategy, and so on.

Also, my second plays the role of "nice guy" in the raid while I can be myself, a big jerk. I call people out and tell them their mistakes and how to improve, while the nice guy makes sure no one gets really angry at me, and tells me to relax every 15 min in officer chat. It is kind of a funky system, but it works.

And really that is the best advice I can give you. If you are just starting out as Raid Leader, first and foremost be yourself. Your raiders might not like how you handle everything, but they will respect you if you don't try to appease everyone.

As far as loot is concerned, we use Suicide Kings (SK). It is basically a priority list, you "bid" on gear and if you are the highest bidder, you drop to the bottom and everyone else moves up. It keeps loot spread fairly even throughout the guild and minimizes loot arguments from people. I have seen many guilds split up because of Loot Council systems or dkp and the likes, with officers getting priority.

Good luck with your leading guys.

One last tip: don't do it all yourself. Find people you trust and give them jobs and make sure they are carried out. Have a healer coordinate rotating cd's with tanks, have a dps set up kick rotations, etc. It makes it more enjoyable for you, and lets you focus on finding out why you are wiping and what needs to be changed on those trickier fights.