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Ciderhelm
08-19-2009, 04:26 AM
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The UI seen in this video is Aliena's UI (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f211/54528-aliena-s-ui.html)



Welcome back to the TankSpot Crusader's Coliseum raid guide! My name is Aliena and in this video I'll explain the strategy we used for the Faction Champions, the third encounter in the Trial of the Crusader raid instance.

If you'd like more information or would like to learn more about downloading this movie, click "more info" on the movie information box on YouTube to head directly to TankSpot! Also, be sure to subscribe by clicking the Subscribe button to the right so you will be automatically notified as we release movies.

In this fight you face 10 NPCs of the opposing faction with approximately 2 million hitpoints each. The setup presumably changes from raid ID to raid ID, but it seems consistent in that there are always three healers. There are 14 different NPCs in total that you may end up fighting in any constellation - a DPS version of each class and a healer version of each class that has a healing talent tree.

The general idea of this fight is very reminiscent of a larger scale arena fight, or the third boss in Magister's Terrace. The NPCs work together like an PVP team and should be handled in a similar fashion.

While you're facing up to 12 mobs altogether including pets, they cannot be AoE'd down as they gain a buff that reduces damage done by AoE abilities by 75%.

No normal threat mechanics are in effect. Melee NPCs seem to pick a target at random for a certain amount of time and then move on to to the next one while the caster NPCs just pick random targets to dot up or damage, but abilities such as taunt and fade will make them drop their target temporarily.

It's hard to present an incredibly detailed strategy for this fight but I will give tips of all the things I've noticed that should prove useful:

-You should be aware that the NPCs will use most if not all of their class respective spells, especially crowd control ones. Examples are Blind, Entangling Roots, Cyclone, Wyvern Sting, Sheep and Fears (including AoE fears).

- The paladins will use Hand of Sacrifice and Divine Shield. Have a priest keep mass dispel ready.

- The moonkin will use Treants on cooldown.

- The Warrior will use Bladestorm. If at all possible, stay away from him as best as you can, especially as a cloth wearer. He also breaks fears and uses Intimidating Shout.

- The rogue will randomly focus on a target and burst it down while keeping wounding poison on. Its target will need extra healing.

- The death knight uses chains of ice, Army of the Dead and Death Grip.

- Killing the shaman's totems is incredibly helpful.

- The warlock favors casting Unstable Affliction which should be interrupted whenever possible. He also casts Curse of Agony and Corruption and Fear. Lots of fear.

- The shadow Priest favors casting Vampiric Touch, Shadow Word: Pain and even uses Dispersion when targetted.

- Any NPC that can dispel will dispel.

You want to mark the healers up before pulling and single target them down first. We put an interrupter on every healer and their only task was to make sure no heal gets off. To back this up and catch some other random interrupts, we had our rogue spam Fan of Knives with Throwing Specialization.

Alternatively, you can choose to lock them out by CCing them, but PVP duration and diminishing returns are in effect. The restoration druid can and should be banished or otherwise controlled, as he'll mainly cast instants and is hard to lock down. Since a couple heals will probably go off no matter how hard you try, you should have someone keep mortal strike or wound poison on the current kill target.

The warrior and death knight should be kited with movement speed reducing effects on them. Chains of Ice, Frost Nova and Entangling Roots are most useful on those two. As mentioned, taunts work temporarily, so should any melee NPC pick a clothie as target, they should be taunted so the clothie gets at least a breather and can start kiting. Be aware that taunt diminishing returns are in full effect though, so tanks need to space them out appropriately.

The warlock and hunter pets have very low health, but don't deal a lot of damage either. Whether you choose to kill them first or leave them up for last is up to you. We chose to ignore them as they weren't much of a nuisance for us.

Dispels and cleanses of all kinds are extremely important. On our kill attempt, we had a good 300 cleanses combined. Aim to keep druid and priest HoTs dispelled as well as NPC cooldowns such as Hand of Protection, Barkskin, etc.

Tanks are of very little use in this encounter, although the various interrupts Protection Warriors have make them an ideal choice for locking down a healer.

While it is possible to use resilience gear for this encounter, it seems that burst DPS is much more important. With 10 targets alive, it's close to impossible to keep a 100% lock on every mob, so you want to aim to kill them faster than they heal. We did not have anyone use resilience gear.

Thanks for watching this movie! As always, feel free to ask questions or add suggestions either on YouTube or in the strategy thread on TankSpot.com. Also, TankSpot Donors can download all of these movies in High Definition directly from our servers -- click the second link in the movie information box to learn more!

Hello and welcome to the TankSpot Crusader's Coliseum raid guide! My name is Aliena and in this video I'll explain the strategy we used for the Faction Champions, the third encounter in the Trial of the Crusader raid instance.

If you'd like more information or would like to learn more about downloading this movie, click "more info" on the movie information box on YouTube to head directly to TankSpot! Also, be sure to subscribe by clicking the Subscribe button to the right so you will be automatically notified as we release movies.

In its 10-man version, you fight a group of 6 out of 14 possible NPCs of your opposing faction with at least one healer. Each NPC has approximately 400k health. They have most if not all of the same abilities as a player of the same class would, and they will attempt to snare and lock down your raid members. All NPCs have an Aura that reduces their damage taken from AoE spells by 75%, so single target them down.
When you first engage the fight, the champions will jump down from a corner of the arena depending on your faction. Be aware they don't enter through the gates.

Our raid composition consisted of a Prot Warrior, 2 healers and 7 DPS.

The NPCs behave like a coordinated arena team and they'll attempt to focus one person at a time. If your opponent configuration is melee heavy, they'll prefer to focus down cloth wearers. Fortunately, each cloth class has an ability to temporarily drop their threat - Fade, Soulshatter and Ice Block. They'll be your best friends.

Your opponents are suspectible to Crowd Control, but PVP duration and diminishing returns are in effect. Be aware that the same goes for taunt, so it should only be used to save a clothie from getting murdered. We only used CC right at the start and when healers were in trouble.

For us, it was easiest to focus down the healer while having our clothies kite the melee NPCs around as best as they could. When the melee started focus firing a target, we concentrated our healing on that person.

Interrupts and dispels as well as concentrated focused fire are of utmost importance. Analyze your opposing team ahead of the pull and set up a fitting kill order with healers either dying first or having a set interruptor on them the whole fight. We found it more effective to burst down the first two targets as quickly as possible instead of wasting much time with CC, but it's really up to your raid synergy which route you prefer to go.

While this is a PVP-style encounter, resilience gear isn't as useful as it may seem. Losing the ability to focus down your targets quickly results in dragging out the fight, and your healers won't have the same mana efficiency they have in PVE gear.

As you can see, this was a very quick encounter for us that barely lasted two minutes. Make sure to check out the 25-man version guide for additional tips about the various NPC abilities.


Thanks for watching this movie! As always, feel free to ask questions or add suggestions either on YouTube or in the strategy thread on TankSpot.com. Also, TankSpot Donors can download all of these movies in High Definition directly from our servers -- so if you'd like to learn more about that, justclick the second link in the movie information box!

Belak
08-19-2009, 04:39 AM
Who left their PVP in my PVE???

I'm looking forward to any advice I can get for this fight. We went into 10 man last night and spent most of the evening swearing at this encounter. (One of our raiders is going to Blizzcon this weekend with specific instructions to find who designed it and punch him.)

I have to admit, though, that it's pretty amusing to see how some folks think this is the best encounter ever and others think it's Satan incarnate.

Murdog
08-19-2009, 04:46 AM
I suggest leaving your prot warrior as prot and just taunt the warrior/rogue and you alone can pretty much lock him down between stun's and taunts (Yes taunt sometimes goes immune but we have a shit ton of stuns that cover the duration) also just randomly taunting anything else give a 1 or 2 attack break on someone else who cant take the dmg, vigilance is your friend. I did this in DPS gear and tank spec.

dirt
08-19-2009, 04:54 AM
Got our butts kicked last night in 25man. We employed basically the same strategy as above(marked healers/shammies/pally first) and tried to burn the caster down but as mentioned above they used every ability in the book. The rogue is a major pain and seems to like clothies alot. As well as the pally using his bubble on the priest.

I do very little PvP, as does alot of my guildies but I could certainly see where some arena experience would help. I'm off the opposite mind, I like this challenge wise as I thought the first two encounters were....well a bit weak. Suffice to say we will be taking some more shots at this throughout the week. More than likely in some 10man teams first.

Valinoth
08-19-2009, 05:37 AM
We also took our guild into 25man last night, and likewise got schooled in regular PvP fashion. We were trying to use mage/druid combos to CC two healers while we tried to kill the resto shammy, but never actually succeeded in killing anything even once. It seems like at every attempt we were changing up some tactic or the kill order trying to find the best strat for us. These guys are just damn tough, but it seems like if you can get over the hump of killing the first few (any combination of healers, the DK, Warrior, and rogue) you should have some success. The challenge is nice and forces PvEers to think, but man I could use a good ol' classic 25-on-one boss fight after a night of wiping.

Waffle
08-19-2009, 05:43 AM
Just a few quick questions along with a thought, as this video is for 25 man you're facing 10 different npcs, how does this look in 10 man? do you still fight the 10 npcs?
Also, as i heard dispells being mentioned as "anything that can dispell will dispell" how would Unstable Affliction work here, will the npcs just dispell it and get blasted or will it work as a dispell-protection for others?

Polar
08-19-2009, 05:49 AM
Great strat. We spun our wheels a bit tonight until we discovered this. Win! <3

The key for us seemed to be getting dedicated interrupts on the 3 healers and having a rogue in with the FoK spam. Once the healers were dead it got a lot easier.

Aliena
08-19-2009, 05:58 AM
Just a few quick questions along with a thought, as this video is for 25 man you're facing 10 different npcs, how does this look in 10 man? do you still fight the 10 npcs?
Also, as i heard dispells being mentioned as "anything that can dispell will dispell" how would Unstable Affliction work here, will the npcs just dispell it and get blasted or will it work as a dispell-protection for others?

There are 6 NPCs in the 10-man version.

And you know, I do wonder about the UA. We didn't run any affliction lock. But considering that the one time you really want dispel protection is when you CC something and UA would break that CC fairly quickly, it's not quite as useful as it might seem at first glance.

Verangor
08-19-2009, 06:06 AM
Nice Guide. What's that music playing in the background?

Ciderhelm
08-19-2009, 06:11 AM
Nice Guide. What's that music playing in the background?
This is the same licensed music we've used for all of our Ulduar movies:

Under The Sea
Endless Oceans

They are 60 minute long tracks, so we get a big variety in the music over the course of our movies. They are not (as far as I'm aware) available for cheap individual purpose, but if you really want them, you can purchase a license at Royalty Free Music, Stock Music, Production Music Library (http://www.neosounds.com).

Khue
08-19-2009, 06:13 AM
This was a very entertaining fight. We found that prot warriors on non focused target healers was extremely useful and that prot warriors could also tank/kite/stun/silence the dk, paladin, and warrior with a fair amount of efficiency. I started off on the holy priest, interrupting, stunning, and silencing while the rest of my raid dps focused the Druid. Once the druid target had been downed, the raid then prioritized the holy priest at which point I moved to the paladin, employing every trick in my tool bag. For the paladin, I would acquire as much of his focus as I could pulling him to the complete opposite side of the arena with taunt. I would then hamstring/bash the paladin and eventually lose focus. The paladin would slowly make his way back to the raid at which point I would use charge/intercept/intervene/conc/sw to attempt to slow him down until the taunt dr was cleared. After the taunt immunity was cleared, I would start the cycle up again. Some observations relating to controlling the paladin:

Spell reflect is amazing. This should always be on cool down. If it is not, you are wrong.
The farther away from the group the paladin got, the more attention he paid to me and less to other targets. At one point, he seemed to stick to me until a fellow raider was feared back to me.
PvP trinket. Have it.

Hope this helps!

Ironfoe
08-19-2009, 06:24 AM
We had War, DK, Rogue, hunter, lock, mage, Shadow priest, priest, shaman, paladin (priest sham pala healers). Thats 4 dispells that had to be kept locked initially until they where killed.

We put all our effective CC into non diminishing return tandems and each tandem rotated between the priest, the spriest, and paladin. We lead in with CC and deathgripped the shaman into our melee and burned the shaman with lust while all CC focus was on ANYTHING that could heal or dispell (we banished the lock pet also). Totem killing plays a huge role and must happened immediately as well especially grounding and tremor.

We had 1 DK tank constantly taunting/gripping/Chainsing the rogue. Our hunters constantly laid frost traps to help our soft targets kite out when focused etc. At times several NPCs will start hitting a single target randomly and that person needs lots of attention.

We killed shaman, paladin, priest, spriest, mage, warlock, hunter, rogue, war DK. Once you get by the healing and dispells it becomes much less hectic and much more systematic, and your CC tandems can just CC whatever is loose but must NEVER stop communicating. Since we did not put constant CC cycles on most of the dps we ran 6 healers and spread our raid out in a large area covering the middle 3rd of the arena and kited as needed past traps etc. Less clumping also helped our DK assigned to the rogue a much easier time finding him and pealing him off soft targets. The mage warlock and hunter can pump out serious damage and require lots of dispelling and raid healing on thier CC and damage types.

You have to look at this fight in a arena pvp mindset. Early CC chains + bursting down the other forces key assets are the only way to get an advantage. We altered our strat as the night went on after literally every attempt until the last 2 (our last attempt was 15 minutes before we end our raid when we killed it). With this pattern of all focus on systematically locking down all heals/dispells while burning the 3 healers in sequence quickly turned this fight around. Only 1 time all night did we get more than 2 NPCs down, in 3 hours of attempts, before our actual victory. Once everyone got on the same page and our CC tandems got thier targets locked this quickly turned into an easy victory with only 2 deaths.

Focus targets, lots of raid heals, COMMUNICATION, and reliable raid awareness are all vital pieces to beating this.

Goodluck everyone!

Waffle
08-19-2009, 06:29 AM
There are 6 NPCs in the 10-man version.

And you know, I do wonder about the UA. We didn't run any affliction lock. But considering that the one time you really want dispel protection is when you CC something and UA would break that CC fairly quickly, it's not quite as useful as it might seem at first glance.

UA doesnt tend to break fear 'that' easy and if you're going with a lock then UA -> Fear is a way to control 1 target without having the fear insta-dispelled, but dispell protection isnt just for CCing, burning yourself oom on reapplying your dots / diseases isnt really viable and for 1 lock to keep UA on 6 targets or two to keep UA up on 10 targets isnt that hard, even if it gimps your dps it'll probably help all other classes who get set-back for having their stuff dispelled.
This might depend abit on what classes you get to fight aswell, since a priest can roll abolish disease to cripple a dk and still avoid the locks UA.

Question would really be, how smart are the npcs, if the ones who can dispell magic will insta-dispell anything that's magic UA will help with locking down healers even more if you have a MS effect up, not to mentioned the extra few thousands of damage it blows up for.

Ciderhelm
08-19-2009, 06:30 AM
Donor download is up!

Aliena
08-19-2009, 06:37 AM
UA doesnt tend to break fear 'that' easy and if you're going with a lock then UA -> Fear is a way to control 1 target without having the fear insta-dispelled, but dispell protection isnt just for CCing, burning yourself oom on reapplying your dots / diseases isnt really viable and for 1 lock to keep UA on 6 targets or two to keep UA up on 10 targets isnt that hard, even if it gimps your dps it'll probably help all other classes who get set-back for having their stuff dispelled.


We didn't really have much of a problem with this, but that's just one perspective. Would be nice to have some feedback on this.

Waffle
08-19-2009, 06:44 AM
We didn't really have much of a problem with this, but that's just one perspective. Would be nice to have some feedback on this.

Bet it might be a tad-bit overkill to run UA on all targets for maximum dispell-protection for every class that applies any form of magic / disease effect but if the NPCs dont dispell anything when UA is up it might speed up the dps.

Depending on what we get to fight i'll try and see how affliction does the job, however I'm not doing this until sunday so if someone beats me to trying it feel free to update about this.

Satorri
08-19-2009, 06:52 AM
Has anyone tested to see if Resilience is effective against these mobs?

We had some fun getting our feet wet last night, but it was a bit chaotic to keep under wraps. The first couple times we engage, they fixate on whoever is there first, then as soon as they got healed, they turned on the healer who provided said heals and nuked them hard.

They got us with our own strat, ha ha.

I absolutely love this fight, but the less pvp-eager/pvp-averse raiders have a lot more trouble with it than the pvpers.

Fetzie
08-19-2009, 06:54 AM
You need to look out for the PvP gear reducing potential burst damage on your side due to a lot of the stat points going into "survival" stats rather than damage ones.

Bucket
08-19-2009, 06:57 AM
Off topic, but what is the addon you use to show when you get surge of light as an aura around your character?

Satorri
08-19-2009, 07:15 AM
Pyrea, I was thinking more for the healers. When they catch heat if they get a few things on them, they can get crushed pretty hard, if we can reduce some of that with pvp gear, it may make life easier, if only while we're adapting to the fight.

dadricvertanis
08-19-2009, 07:26 AM
I'm going to post my notes here since my guild did pretty much the opposite of this strat and left healers till last. It seems backwards and it sure doesn't make a ton of sense but it worked for us. Basically our attempts to dps the healers didn't seem to work nearly as well. It made the fight a bit longer but it felt a lot more under control.

Our kill order was:
Rogue, shadow priest, warlock, hunter, boomkin, death knight, resto shaman, resto druid, holy paladin, pets, warrior.

Reasoning:
We killed the rogue first since he seemed to be the most lethal. With all the dps on him, he was locked down pretty quickly. The shadow priest second to get rid of some dispels and lighten the need for our own dispels. Warlock third to lighten the need for our own dispels again. With a lot of the burst dps and dots out of the way, the fight was essentially over.

Notes on what specific people in my group did:

- Myself, prot war - I assigned myself to take care of the holy paladin. Between heroic throw, shield bash, concussive blow and shockwave... the most the paladin ever got off was the occasional flash of light.

- DK tank - Assigned to the resto shaman, killed lots of totems and interrupted healing waves.

- Resto/Feral PvP Druid (she's normally just feral, offspecs are useful) - Kited and locked down the warrior with cyclone, stuns, roots, etc. She was so excited to use some of her pvp skills hah. Called out the names of anyone near the warrior and when he was bladestorming.

- Priest, specced disc - MASS DISPEL SPAM. Pretty much constantly. Had 202 dispels on our kill. I don't think he really healed at all till late in the fight.

- Resto druid - lots of decurses and cyclones on the hunter typically.

Other notes:

- We have no combat rogues, so no dirty FoK interrupts (I wish we had this, it would have made things easier)... people need to really lock down their targets.

- Fear bomb any time adds clump up so that CC can be reapplied.

- Death gripping healers out of range is both hilarious and awesome.

- Dispels are a higher priority than pretty much everything in my opinion. (This includes killing totems, sort of).

- Do not stand on the left side where they jump down on the pull... it hurts. A lot.

- Experiment and find what works for your group comp. This fight is very dynamic.

Random amusing numbers:

Dispels: Around 350, 202 done by a disc priest with mass dispel.
Interrupts: About 100, 36 by the DK on the shaman. 28 by me on the holy priest (I wonder if stuns count as interrupts).
CC's broken: About 10, this is solid... needs to be as low as possible (Sadly I had the most at 2).

gabbu
08-19-2009, 07:28 AM
off topic, but what is the addon you use to show when you get surge of light as an aura around your character?

power auras

Power Auras Classic - Addons - Curse (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/powerauras-classic.aspx)

Therdin
08-19-2009, 07:30 AM
If you had an extra pally not using the standard Dev/Ret/Fire Aura, would It be useful to have Crusaders Aura up? I was thinking extra run percent might save a few clothies getting chased down by the big nasties... Also would PvP trinkets like Medallion of the Horde/Alliance be worth equipping for this fight?

Pwnanapuddin
08-19-2009, 07:33 AM
I am thinking about grabbing Hungering Cold for this for our group. We are running our 10 man tonight. I will check back with how effective or lame it is.

Waffle
08-19-2009, 07:37 AM
Priest, specced disc - MASS DISPEL SPAM. Pretty much constantly. Had 202 dispels on our kill. I don't think he really healed at all till late in the fight.
How did this work against the UA? Does the UA the enemy lock put up silence and blast at all? (Been ages since i've seen Mass Dispel being casted onto people with UA so dont really remember how UA reacted upon that)

As to Therdin, Crusader aura only applies to mounted speed :)

Therdin
08-19-2009, 07:38 AM
well then I feel stupid for asking lol

Diffy
08-19-2009, 07:48 AM
Our guild did this last night in 25 man. We wiped 4-5 times before downing them. We did kill the healers first.

I will say that it may not be a good idea to put on your PvP gear, but definitely put on your PvP Trinket! Being able to break Sheep, Fear, etc. is clutch especial for people assigned to interrupts.

I am a prot warrior and althought I had on hand a good DPS set, I stayed prot. Basically I was assigned to try and kite the warrior as far away from the group as I could. I found myself using tons of abilities I didn't normally use so it was a challenge with my keybinds!

Use Hamstring! Keep him moving slow. If he gets close to clothies/ squishies Disarm him!

Use your Mocking blow/Taunt/Challenging shout to keep agro.

Concussing blow and shockwave for stuns, and make revenge priority over shield bash as it has a chance for a short stun. Also remember that your charge and intercept are valid ways of stunning for a short period of time so use them often! If he is running after a squishy intervene the squishy to take some of the dmg.

Other tips: You have intimidating shout: Use it but beware the long cooldown. Demoralizing shout should be kept up. I am undead, so I had WotF, Beserker Rage, and my PvP trinket to keep me from getting CCd.


If you have an arms warrior Piercing howl is great for AoE movement reduce.

If you have deathknights using Death grip is a great way to pull a new target into where all your melee DPS is. We used two back to back death grips to pull our first target all the way across the room.

stahphoo
08-19-2009, 07:51 AM
What is the addon that pops up "Prayer of Mending is available"?

gabbu
08-19-2009, 08:01 AM
What is the addon that pops up "Prayer of Mending is available"?

Most likely MiksScrollingBattle text

MikScrollingBattleText - Addons - Curse (http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/mik-scrolling-battle-text.aspx)

Glenlivet
08-19-2009, 08:03 AM
I would note that this fight (in our opinion) came down to dispels and keeping people alive. CC is used to help with both of the above, but we finally downed it after having dedicated healers assisting off the (NPC) rogue and warrior to help keep their targets up. We had 3 dks pulling healers into different sides of the room where we CCed the druid and had 3 dps/interruptors occupy the pally while the rest of the raid burned down the shaman.

I would say that the first 2 minutes of the fight are the worst (basically burning down the first healers two healers). Shaman was first up on the chopping block, moving on to the pally. Warrior was next, and after that we finished up the rogue, druid, and then mopped up the rest.

Trondhjem
08-19-2009, 08:03 AM
Hell I'm freakin out!
Love pvp and I can't wait for this encounter to beat my raid up... or after some tries vice versa! ;)

sounds really great!

BlazeDale
08-19-2009, 08:12 AM
I really enjoyed this encounter. I actually went prot heals on my pally for this fight and had a great time doing it. 33k health in my heal set with 10k Flash of light crits! As a pally I can't stress enough how helpful your dispells are for this encounter.

Only took us a few attempts to figure who to focus down first. We ending up taking down the shaman first. Those totems were pretty annoying. Then we focused the pally healer and from there the dps went down easily.

Only problem is the instance bugged and we were locked in with no chest. Lame

Ciderhelm
08-19-2009, 09:51 AM
I'm not sure I mentioned this here yet but we had over 200 interrupts from Fan of Knives spam on our kill. The ability to do this will be removed in 3.2.2 but for this week at least it's very valuable to know. (Aliena noted it in her movie as well)

Squirrelnut
08-19-2009, 10:19 AM
We spent some time wiping on 25m but took it down when we adjusted our approach last night: we decided to leave some tanks as tanks to reduce the damage people were taking

- First off we were 23 manning it, attendance issues with school coming back soon
- Due to limited players we didn't have as much CC as we would like
- Tanks can't keep agro but constant taunts, stuns, etc can certainly do a good job of keeping targets away from squishy dps. We kept the dps shammy, warrior and dk tanked with taunts, stuns, etc to keep them away from the rest of the raid a good 75-85% of the time
- Mage locked down the rogue with sheep/ice spam
- CC their healers and burst down marked healers 1 by 1

It made a big difference having the main DPS threat (rogue/shammy/warrior/druid) kept away from our clothies. Even with limited CC due to under-manning it you should be able to easily lock down their healers when targets are marked and it is clear who is responsible for which CC target.

This fight is nothing more then some PvP exposure to CC madness. Aggrivating at first but fairly easy once everyone is clear on their role, who is locking down what & kill order. (we didn't use the fan of knives spam but I suppose it is very nice to use prior to 3.2.2)

Splug
08-19-2009, 11:15 AM
They start grouped up enough to hit 8-10 of them with hungering cold. When hungering cold is about to fade, they'll still be grouped up for psychic scream / intimidating shout. When that fades, they'll be split nicely for single target cc (we assigned ours before the pull). Once that hits DR, counterspell lockout the next cast.

By that time the healers should be face down in the dirt and it becomes a matter of picking a random target and zerging it while spamming FoK, frost traps, and chains. The encounter is a bit more hectic than the first two (and will potentially be brutal in hard mode as a result), but ultimately it is still easier than the ulduar hard-mode content, and perhaps some of the later ulduar easy-mode content.

A few other random notes:
* The warrior will shattering throw the first thing to use divine shield.
* Classes with AE attacks as part of their single-target rotation (howling blast, whirlwind, divine storm) will suffer slightly on damage due to the AE damage reduction.
* CC that makes the target immune to damage (banish) is best.
* CC that completely removes a target and breaks after a set amount of damage (fear, hex) is strong as well.
* Multi-target control is an excellent opener, even if it breaks on damage (hungering cold, psychic scream, intimidating shout), but can be harder to use later in the encounter.
* Damage outside the focus target is a waste.
* The npc's deal small amounts of damage to almost everyone. Surviving this is easy as long as you keep up on dispelling debuffs.
* Occasionally, melee will deal large surges of damage to players. These spikes can be difficult to predict, but are the primary reason anyone will die (particularly if coupled with a healer being locked down in 10, or several in 25).
* Death grip and chains of ice spam is an excellent way to address the above.
* PvP trinkets are useful for dispel classes, but otherwise somewhat a waste. The rest of the raid should be getting debuffs removed promptly anyway.

-Splug

Muffin Man
08-19-2009, 01:29 PM
Has anyone tested to see if Resilience is effective against these mobs?

I absolutely love this fight, but the less pvp-eager/pvp-averse raiders have a lot more trouble with it than the pvpers.

We started the fight in pvp gear if we had it. Then after a few wipes we looked through the combat log and saw.... no crits. So we all dumped our pvp gear. As for res's other effect to reduce player damage, I doubt it would work here. It's a pvp-style encounter for raiders, meaning raiders get pvp light and shouldn't need pvp gear/specs to handle this. That is if I'm assuming Blizz's intentions correctly here.

It is a fun fight and the more I think about it I wonder if we should have had more target splitting.

We went from futilely killing their healers to blowing them up in 30 seconds and finishing with only one death. All of our attempts had a rogue lock down the second healer while we worked on the first. So I guess something just clicked. Two of our players said they did no dps between dispel/cc and being cc-ed/running for their lives. But it worked out, so this fight isn't just about dps I guess.

Unger
08-19-2009, 01:51 PM
Took us four tries to get it last night.... so I'll let you in on our strategy.

We took out the healers first. We preferred killing the priest first and the resto druid second. I went in as a prot warrior and charged off the bat. Very first thing I did was fear bomb.... we bloodlusted and ff'd the priest. When fear was over, we had a priest fear bomb.... and then another warrior after that. It was a huge help.

The key to the fight is getting the first three guys down FAST and dispelling like crazy. We had about 280 dispells.

Once the fear bombs were done, we had the first one dead. I switched to the off healer (the one we werent killing) and I interrupted as much as I could. We assigned someone to kill the totems the moment they popped up. I believe they made a macro, but I cannot confirm this. That totem heals like crazy so you gotta get it down.

Once the healers were dead, we took out the hunter, the rogue, arms warrior and spriest.

The entire time, we had our shammans hexing, mages sheeping, ret pallys repentancing, locks banishing (druid healer) and chain fearing. We didnt use a ton of CC in the beginning because it seemed like the toons that CC'd got targetted and focus fired. Only after the healers were dead did we do a lot of that.

Rogues can also sap before the fight, which we used.... but it doesnt last long so its only a minor help.

Get the first two healers down fast and you should be in good shape. Make sure to have TONS of dispells.

Good Luck

Chamenas
08-19-2009, 02:24 PM
Erm, how much hp do they have on 10 man?

hvidgaard
08-19-2009, 02:46 PM
around 400k each iirc

Drainlek
08-19-2009, 05:22 PM
Hello guys
Iam here to express my opinion about this,...the fact is that blizzard really screwed things this time, i love the game and i thank to blizz about that but they really screwed things on this boss. This were soppose to be another raiding instance, even being sort of a arena. Iam at a PVE guild and when we faced this boss(es) we were petrifide with the figth.
95% PVP.Comon I hate PVP and iam not good at it.Actually nearly all my guild hate PVP as well. And we need to kill this one if we actually want to get throw the rest of the instance.Even if someone says the the inverse its the truth this is PVP even if were figthing NPC, its like battling bots in a arena or warsong Gluth. it PVP and the rest is nothing.Each one with 2.4M O.o like what? I even will not comment about this.

This is my opinion, and i totally respect other opinions, but iam really mad with this.

Yourface
08-19-2009, 06:21 PM
10v25 is hard. Kite melee, interrupt healers, CC as needed, focus fire them one by one.

Tygorl
08-19-2009, 06:42 PM
Took us a few goes last night but once we stopped saying that awful CC word so much, and started focussing more on burning marked targets & kiting when you have aggro things worked a lot better. We had a rogue FoK’ing & loads of dispels going off. Our heals were using a lot of instants to try to avoid the silences.

We took out the resto druid first, using a death grip to the raid in an attempt to separate most of the raid from the tanks & the rogue. Next we killed the disc priest, then the holy pally. Tanks were tank spec after some experimenting on the first couple of attempts.

We noticed that kiting things seemed to make them swap targets more, which means 1 person isn’t taking all the damage when the npc’s are off the tanks. I also noticed that the further away from the raid you can get the npc’s you’re ‘distracting’, the longer they will focus on you until somebody comes into range.

On our kill I ‘tanked’ the shaman, he drops aggro immediately after each time he drops a totem & will run back to the middle of the raid. Occasionally he’ll run to the other side of the arena to bash on a healer. At one point he started hitting very hard on melee, so we had the prot warrior pick him for more control. I went to the hunter & range tanked the lock also. I found the hunter was happier to focus on me than the shaman for some reason, and we had a resto druid cc’ing his pet cat.

Odisseus
08-19-2009, 08:34 PM
At first sight this looked for all the world that it would be a complete spam of cc and broken cc and oh my god who broke the cc and where is all my cc etc etc, or along those lines at least.

After couple quick attempts made much more sense to burn down 1 healer, while i kept my warrior tank on teh 2nd healer and just stunned and interupted to my hearts content. Let our 2 resto shammys simply kite the rogue/ret pally chasing them with a variety of totems and help from hunter traps and before we knew it, they ''champions'' were dropping like flies. Loads of fun and nowhere near as complicated as half of our server seemed to find it.

Admittedly that was the 10-man encounter as we are a new and relatively small guild, but i have to say well done to blizzard for continuing to produce a fresh approach to boss encounters. Ulduar was good, this appears to be on par at least, and hopefully will only get better.

Thanks also for your videos for each new encounter, very clear and easy to follow, i have all my guildies check them out on reset day to make sure we all know what to expect. Keep up the good work.

Narshe
08-19-2009, 11:49 PM
Hello guys
Iam here to express my opinion about this,...the fact is that blizzard really screwed things this time, i love the game and i thank to blizz about that but they really screwed things on this boss. This were soppose to be another raiding instance, even being sort of a arena. Iam at a PVE guild and when we faced this boss(es) we were petrifide with the figth.
95% PVP.Comon I hate PVP and iam not good at it.Actually nearly all my guild hate PVP as well. And we need to kill this one if we actually want to get throw the rest of the instance.Even if someone says the the inverse its the truth this is PVP even if were figthing NPC, its like battling bots in a arena or warsong Gluth. it PVP and the rest is nothing.Each one with 2.4M O.o like what? I even will not comment about this.

This is my opinion, and i totally respect other opinions, but iam really mad with this.
I'm also a PvP hater (more arena than BGs, I actually enjoy doing some BGs with friends) but I do really love this fight:
You need to use almost every skill your character have and prepare to react very fast.
So you like to stand behind a mob while spamming your DPS macro and avoid standing in the fire? It's ok, but apart from some Hard modes in Ulduar (Mimiron mostly) this is the best boss fight or at least the most fun in MONTHS of world of warcraft. IMHO

Rhyseh
08-20-2009, 12:04 AM
I dislike this encounter immensly, we downed it after a handful of attempts but it was far from enjoyable.

Ellaytank
08-20-2009, 12:43 AM
Howdy,

Ellay here just have a couple things I might say.

1) This fight isn't as fun for tanks because we feel less then helpfull by not absorbing the damage and watching the DPS get murdered.

2) We can actually use our utility to solve the above.

3) For Pallys tanks the 3 person taunt works insanely well in this encounter. I had multiple times where a DPS was getting murdered and I saved them by pulling all three adds off of them.

4) For Pally tanks avenger's shield is your friend. It can interupt all three healers or any combination of the healers and dps.

5) Taunts do work for a couple seconds.

6) Seal of Justice is your friend, it is a random CC all in its own.


Also one of the big things we noticed for 10 man was that our Shamans Earth elemental actually tanked all of the Boomkins adds and the hunters pet in addition to random tanking of the Ret pally and rogue.

Diefje
08-20-2009, 12:46 AM
The big gates won't open, they jump down from the stands!

As in the video, if you play Horde they jump down from Alliance side (to the right as you zone in, or north), if you play Alliance from the Horde side of the stands (to the left as you zone in, or south).

Our first pull we got swept, because we were expecting them to come out of the big big gates.

Assign a Main Assist for DPS, communicate who CC's what, use (mass)dispells and interrupts, and most importantly DON'T PANIC!

Muffin Man
08-20-2009, 01:30 AM
On 10 man anyways, they jump down and if you're near the entrance you won't aggro them.

They'll just stand there obediently while you mark them and determine cc assignments.

Aethelas
08-20-2009, 01:47 AM
We 2 shotted this at 10 man. Perhaps we were lucky. This is how it went (or how I remember it)

We faced a setup with a hunter, deathknight, warrior, shaman, paladin, mage. We started with me rushing in and fearing the mobs. After that we cc'ed the paladin and the mage. We had me interupting the hell out of the shaman as we burnt him to 10% he still got the bubble. This was where stuff looked dicey and we started losing 1-2 people. We managed to get cc up again and did the same this time burning the shaman. after that we took out the mage (spellreflect is very good on this fight). More dicy moments ensured and we did gradually lose people (poor clothies). It was quite healing intense from what I gather and it just once more proves how wonderful it is to have a healsquad with an aggressive 'free for all' healing style.

Prot warrior comments:
Most fun I've had in a while. There was so much to interupt, stun reflect, charge hamstring. Basically I ran around with 4 piece T8 and as much block value as I could muster. TBH I think I would have done just as well with my normal tank kit. This fight is chaotic and I think part of our succes was decisive focussed fire. If you let the damage get spread they will heal up. Either way, as a protection warrior you are far from useless! Shockwave, shield bash and intervene were my absolute favourites to use there - better start practicing those key bindings.

Drainlek
08-20-2009, 02:48 AM
Just one thing, iam not telling the encounter is PVP, of corse not, its impossible, weīre killing NPCs, a boss,...but itīs based on PVP, and this was soppose to be a raiding intance, an now look at it, i know that some of the guilds already done, but if nearly half of the 25 man raid knows a little about PVP and its a little good at it, they have a chance on defeating the boss. For the guild that really go wthout PVP spirit, donīt know anything about it and Hate first of all, itīs a nighmare doing this boss.

blindpiggy
08-20-2009, 03:08 AM
I assume Hand of Reckoning works on these mobs? I haven't had the opportunity to see this encounter yet, but it sounds like fun, even if 70% of my guildies would disagree with me.

Further how susceptible are the mobs to CC? I know they'll be dispelled by those that can, but things like Frostweave nets may be handy for the melee classes.

Duzzit
08-20-2009, 03:40 AM
taunts work fine, me/fellow tank taunted melee etc. My guild found the encounter very fun, and we 2 shotted it.

always go for the healers first.

Mayna
08-20-2009, 03:55 AM
In 10 man we had the Druid, Paladin, Shaman (DPS), Priest (DPS), Warrior, and Hunter. We had our ranged DPS and healers stack in the middle of the room (we had 1 mage, 2 shadow priests). Our rogue charged in and did a FoK interrupt spam. Everytime an NPC dropped aggro and came to the ranged we used a CC rotation with 2x Psychic Screams and Frost Nova. It was really easy.

Ciderhelm
08-20-2009, 05:35 AM
10-man movie up!

dirt
08-20-2009, 05:41 AM
I just wanted to post my experience from last night in 10man. To start with, I'd like to add for note our guild tried this on 25 man the night prior and it was a nightmare to say the least. Last night on 10man we were able to 1 shot it! I'm not sure if it was the group make up or better strategy(Thanks everyone above for their insight, it really helped). But this was the makeup of the NPCs:

Boomkin
Shammy
Priest
Pally
Warlock
Rogue


Our group consisted of:

Prot Warrior(Me)
DK
2 S. Priests
H. Pally
Rogue
SV Hunter
Resto Druid
Lock
Mage


After a couple of mins of stratifying, we decided to put our DK on the Rogue, as he proved a real pain in the ass on 25man, especially interrupting our clothies from casting. Our kill order was: Shammy, Priest, Rogue, Pally, Lock and Druid.

One thing we decided on that significantly helped and made this encounter much easier was not to focus soley on 1 target for stuns/cc/interrupts. For example, in my case I started on the Shammy, I'd taunt then stun, then pickup whoever was closest to me next, like the Pally. Basically, by everyone alternating it seemed to make our abilities less likely to be resisted or subject to DR.

Once we got the Shammy & Priest down, the fight was all but over for them. Me, the DK & Rogue just took turns stunning the NPC rogue to effectively take him out of the fight while the casters burned him. When I was not on the rogue I'd focus on following the Pally around and stunning him as often as possible.

All in all a very challenging fight, but seemed much easier in 10man. Guess we'll see tonight if it plays out nearly as good in 25 man.

Good luck to everyone!

dagimp007
08-20-2009, 06:01 AM
i hate this fight...i am sure once i down it i will say its a fun fight, but as of right now PvP strats should stay in PvP

hola_adios
08-20-2009, 06:15 AM
i hate this fight...i am sure once i down it i will say its a fun fight, but as of right now PvP strats should stay in PvP

Sorry yo say break this to you, but in fact they are computer controlled characters :p

It is just a question of knowing what to do.

goldesin
08-20-2009, 07:40 AM
Great work with the movie, thanks from a small rogue and keep the work up!
I still remember the times where this was the only place where to send some clueless raid members about a specific encounter..ahhh, sweet times.

Anyways, this looks lika a very fun encounter, I really look forward to trying them out tonight (25man).


PD: Aliena, such a lovely voice ;) (needed to say, or rather write that since I've heard the movie)

Squirrelnut
08-20-2009, 07:41 AM
The 10m version of this seems almost like a joke it is so easy while the 25m is far more hectic. I actually prefer the 25m difficulty because it requires more planning whereas 10m you just run around and kill stuff without having to worry about it :P (although we were 22 manning the 25m version so perhaps that had something to do with it seeming harder lol)

Akeber
08-20-2009, 08:02 AM
Just one thing, iam not telling the encounter is PVP, of corse not, its impossible, weīre killing NPCs, a boss,...but itīs based on PVP, and this was soppose to be a raiding intance, an now look at it, i know that some of the guilds already done, but if nearly half of the 25 man raid knows a little about PVP and its a little good at it, they have a chance on defeating the boss. For the guild that really go wthout PVP spirit, donīt know anything about it and Hate first of all, itīs a nighmare doing this boss.

I heard the same type of comments form many of my guildies when it was announced the first boss in Ulduar was going to be a vehicle fight. "I play this game to play my class not drive some vehicle...", stuff like that. First time we did it, those same people were the first to comment how much fun it was.

My guild doens't have any serious PVPers. Some of us run some BG for fun, and I can think of one person that is over a 1650 arena rating, but many don't even like to BG. Everyone thought the fight was fun when we did it last night.

Ferag
08-20-2009, 08:19 AM
On 10 man, this is the strategy we employed.

We decided to have our mage put out two back to back sheeps on the Paladin, then switch to one Cyclone, then have our Prot Warrior interrupt the Pally. Our Rogue opened with a Sap on the Hunter, and then Blinded him when it was off. We put everybody on the tree and used Bloodlust to burn it down right away.

We had a Shadow Priest and a Disc Priest who would periodically fear the Enh Shaman and the Death Knight.

Everybody was in PvE gear at the time. We had three healers.

We then killed the Hunter, the Enh Shaman, the Warrior, the Shadow Priest (who was on Poly/Cyclone rotation), and finally owned the Holy Paladin.

Sark
08-20-2009, 08:27 AM
Hello guys
Iam here to express my opinion about this,...the fact is that blizzard really screwed things this time, i love the game and i thank to blizz about that but they really screwed things on this boss. This were soppose to be another raiding instance, even being sort of a arena. Iam at a PVE guild and when we faced this boss(es) we were petrifide with the figth.
95% PVP.Comon I hate PVP and iam not good at it.Actually nearly all my guild hate PVP as well. And we need to kill this one if we actually want to get throw the rest of the instance.Even if someone says the the inverse its the truth this is PVP even if were figthing NPC, its like battling bots in a arena or warsong Gluth. it PVP and the rest is nothing.Each one with 2.4M O.o like what? I even will not comment about this.

This is my opinion, and i totally respect other opinions, but iam really mad with this.

It sounds like you let the encounter beat you before you even started to be honest. My guild is a PvE guild, we mostly suck at PvP and arena type stuff. We one shot the 25 man version of this encounter tonight after getting a couple groups through the 10 man last night. It honestly is not that hard. The tactics are different and it is a chaotic fight, but it is still just NPCs with set abilties that act in a fairly predictable manner. Watch the videos here, read the tactics people are using - they work and they do not require any special knowledge or skills that you do not already have.

The basic things we tried to do:
1. Melee DPS enemies are "tanked" by our tanks. These guys should all be snared through the entire fight.
2. Ranged DPS enemies are CCed by our locks/mages/shaman/druids
3. Focus one healer, lock down the other two, then move on to the next healer.
4. Kite, kite, kite. Anyone taking damage and in danger should be running their asses off. Traps and totems should be down to help.
5. Counter their buffs/debuffs. Dispel/purge their bloodlust/hots/bubbles, etc. Cleanse their dots and CC. Stomp totems, etc. If Grid shows something bad - fix it!

steroni
08-20-2009, 08:34 AM
best way we found for us was to kill 1 healer-1dps-1 healer-1 dps-1 healer- and kill the others

during the figth 2 prot warrior were totally rendering the warrior/dk useless by taunting/stuning/disarming

that figth was really fun in 25 man.

Raddimus
08-20-2009, 09:10 AM
Great work with the movie, thanks from a small rogue and keep the work up!
I still remember the times where this was the only place where to send some clueless raid members about a specific encounter..ahhh, sweet times.

Anyways, this looks lika a very fun encounter, I really look forward to trying them out tonight (25man).


PD: Aliena, such a lovely voice ;) (needed to say, or rather write that since I've heard the movie)

Not intended to offend and I agree she has a lovely voice, but I thought she could slow down a little bit and enunciate a bit better. She sounded a bit nervous which I suppose is understandable and it possibly had her speaking a bit too quickly. In a few places I had trouble understanding her.

On the overall though, I would much prefer to have the information than not and I think you guys @ Tankspot have done a fantastic job once again.

Browncoatforever
08-20-2009, 03:49 PM
I'm a MM/Surv hunter getting ready to run this, and I have read all the posts here. I didn't see any reference to using silencing shot as an interrupt/silence, does it work or are they immune? Also, can scare beast be used to deal with animal-type enemies, such as Animal-form druids, and pets? That would be 30 seconds of beloved peace! I don't pvp very much, but I have used that when dealing with an irritating BM hunter with a corehound. Fear pet, and it's 2 on 1. my kind of odds.
Thanks again for strategy from Y'all out there! Keep it up. And same to Blizzard for making an interesting instance. The same old 5-shot rotation dungeons were getting a bit boring. I think this will go down with VolZash's Insanity as the most interesting yet! Thanks!

Unwheel
08-20-2009, 05:03 PM
Our guild downed these guys tonight on our third try.
After our first couple of attempts (foccusing dps on the healers) failing misserably we decided to change it up a bit.
We foccused the resto druid down whilst keeping CC's up on the warrior,dk and rogue we had a prot tank constantly on the disc priest interupting and any plate dps that could, taunting mobs off the clothies.
We had pairs of CC'ers using deminishing returns to chain mobs for as long as possible (e.g. lock/mage fear untill immune then switch to sheep) to help with the dmg input our raid was recieving.

This is the order (or roughly, we improvised a couple of times) that we killed the mobs:
Resto druid
Rogue
Warrior
DK
Shaman
Paladin
Hunter
Shadow Priest
Warlock
Disc Priest

Cant even remember if thats it :D


The rogue/war are important to kill quickly as they can easilly burn down non-plate wearing members.

All in all, the fight is a lot easier than it looks. Its very hectic, a lot of things going on at the same time that people need to be aware of at the same time. Our healers found it very difficult as it is especially intensive for them (most importantly our priests who also had to cc), but as long as you can stay composed and controll your CCs well it shouldnt cause too many problems.

Caim
08-20-2009, 10:27 PM
Will you think imp. disarm is a nice talent for such encounter?
An addition 10% damage increased seems to be a great help for burning one down.
And shorten our disarm cd also help us easly to protect our mate from the warrior.
PS: Will the 10% damage increased works?

Mookey
08-20-2009, 11:38 PM
Imp disarm is nice talent for any encounter with disarmable enemies. However with so much talents that protection warrior have at his disposal today, it's hard to justify sticking two talents in disarm for it.

Kinda rule for disarm became that if your raid cannot kill disarmable target without disarm, your disarm wont help it either...

Mookey
08-20-2009, 11:38 PM
Imp disarm is nice talent for any encounter with disarmable enemies. However with so much talents that protection warrior have at his disposal today, it's hard to justify sticking two talents in disarm for it.

Kinda rule for disarm became that if your raid cannot kill disarmable target without disarm, your disarm wont help it either...

Vulgrym
08-21-2009, 01:27 AM
This fight was tons of fun. We one-shot it after sending in a couple of 10 mans to scope it out the night before, where we also made quick work of it.

We took a different approach than suggested here in that we eliminated what we perceived to be the most dangerous DPS threats first while disrupting and controlling the healers (Rogue then Warlock in our case); once you build a lead, it's hard for the 8 remaining NPCs to overcome your raid.

I honestly don't think it matters whether you target DPS or Healers first, as your success will likely come down to your raids ability to control targets with non-overlapping CC, swapping CC effectively to avoid DR, burning down the target that has the healing debuff on it and periodically counterspelling/stunning/fearing etc. to keep putting the NPCs deeper into deficit. It's definitely an encounter where you turn off the DPS/Healing meters and focus on executing your respective role(s), with abilities that you probably don't get to use in a raid setting very often.

Refreshing IMO.

Reij
08-21-2009, 11:06 AM
My horde guild attempted this fight last night and, to say the least, we got facerolled. We ended up ending the raid night due to this frustrating encounter. The makeup we faced was:

Holy Pally
Tree Druid
DK
SP
Hunter
Ele Sham

Our makeup was

Prot Warrior
Prot Pally
Hunter
Disc Priest
Holy Pally
Tree Druid
Ele Sham
Warlock
Rogue - was NOT spamming FoK, perhaps this was an issue
Arms Warrior

Once we figured out that we could actually stop for a minute and plan things out, we eventually got the Tree down with a focus-fired bloodlust. Unfortunately, we could not make much headway with the Pally as (in typical PVP-Paladin fashion) she (it was a female Draenei, this comment is not intended to assume that all Pallys who bubble are female) bubbled when focused upon.

I am not the most PVP-savvy person in our guild (I avoid it unless absolutely necessary), but we just couldn't figure out the "trick" here. I'm glad to read that we are not the only guild having issues with this encounter. Hopefully we can overcome this and down them. However, I'm questioning the inclusion of this type of an encounter in a PVE environment. It must be retribution for having Achievements in battlegrounds (Joke). However, it would seem that Blizzard thinks we must be completely well-rounded WoW players to advance through the PVE content. This isn't necessarily bad, it's just frustrating to those of us that choose not to engage in such playstyles.

To the above poster who assigned his guild member to punch the developer that came up with this fight, I salute you and wish your assassin well.

Killga
08-21-2009, 12:52 PM
Got the 25 man version down in 3 attempts last night after wiping 5 times the prior day.


Enemy Set up
BACK ROW : Hunter | Resto Druid | Disc Priest | Resto Shaman | Ret Pally

FRONT ROW : Mage (arcane) | Rogue | Death Knight (unholy?) | Arms Warrior | Warlock (image below is from the previous night w/ Shadow Priest)
1. Enemy Healers Shaman - kill target #1, Priest - kill target #2, Druid (tree) - kill target #3.

All dps on Shaman. Prot warrior (me) and rogue were assigned to Priest for butt tons of interrupts and stuns. Druid (tree) was left to be a. banished, b. feared, and c. left alone pretty much.

The initial pull and burning down of kill target #1 is the most important part of the fight.

2. Initial Pull - Prot warrior charges in at Priest - kill target #2 (who is positioned at the back center of cluster) at the same time Fury warrior charges in at Ret Pally on the far right end. Immediately I thunder clap and Intimidating shout which scatters the entire left half of the crowd, and my fellow fury warrior charges in to fear the other half (especially the warlock and two dps plate baddies). This spreads the mobs around and allows for a singling out of Shaman - kill target #1.

3. Dps down. Go epileptic on Shaman - kill target #1. Heroism/tricks/fok/army/dispell/stun/blood boil/you name it. At about 80-70% dmg on shaman the baddies start to regroup, have a warlock fear the warrior. Put blind or something on dk, not essential but those two plate dps-ers (DK and Warrior) are the only two to occasionally be aware of and cc when they start coming back.
This in contrast to other strats above that have DKs use death grip, chains of ice and taunt. Ours DKs didnt want to go frost, instead they keep the blood spec on for massive dps. This requires non bads in the raid to be on the watch for Whirlwind and Aggro and snare/trap/root/cc/whatever to fend them off.
4. Once Shaman is down burn Priest - kill target #2 which has been locked up till then. Have warrior and rogue then move to Druid (tree) - kill target #3 Just to annoy interrupt and whatever so that priest can be nuked. Once the priest & tree is dead its all about plate baddies.

All healers dead? good

5. Kill warrior or DK, I'd go with warrior. Disarm, taunt, stun, repeat, then DK same thing. At this point a semblance of a normal tanking raid encounter is established. Both Tanks can now taunt/charge/intercept/revenge/concussion/ on the same target. Best policy would be to stun/lock/fear/wtvr on dk (there should be a new name for this kind of cc, the "oh-shit" cc)

DPS jerks gone? nice

6. Kill Warlock and Boomkin if you have one.

- After this it's your ball game. We paid attention to the Rogue, and Ret Pally, but they were scrubs so we didn't sweat it too much. Last to go was the Hunter.

Got my Girdle of Bloodied Scars (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47072) last night because my fellow Tankadin felt charitable. GL!

http://nutnics.com/wow/factionchampions-ouch.jpg

fullmetalcow
08-21-2009, 02:26 PM
Is the list of diminishing returns from Diminishing returns - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Diminishing_returns) correct for the groups of abilities that share the same DR cooldown?

Vulgrym
08-22-2009, 11:39 AM
I am not the most PVP-savvy person in our guild (I avoid it unless absolutely necessary), but we just couldn't figure out the "trick" here. I'm glad to read that we are not the only guild having issues with this encounter. Hopefully we can overcome this and down them. However, I'm questioning the inclusion of this type of an encounter in a PVE environment. It must be retribution for having Achievements in battlegrounds (Joke). However, it would seem that Blizzard thinks we must be completely well-rounded WoW players to advance through the PVE content. This isn't necessarily bad, it's just frustrating to those of us that choose not to engage in such playstyles.

I don't understand this mentality at all. This is far from a PvP encounter, despite it kind of looking like one. The NPCs aren't going to do something unpredictable, fake-cast to bait your own casts, etc. Your guild was stymied by a Paladin bubble? Seriously? Maybe your raid members aren't used to using things like Shattering Throw or Mass Dispel, or swapping en masse onto another target, quickly putting up a healing debuff and then disrupting the healer, but this isn't rocket science, it's just a matter of execution as is the case in any PvE encounter.

I wonder if there was no such thing as Arenas in this game if people would still view this as a "PvP encounter" rather than a Boss fight that requires coordination across 10 NPCs. I mean, it would still be the same fight ...

loquatious
08-23-2009, 04:55 AM
I wonder if there was no such thing as Arenas in this game if people would still view this as a "PvP encounter" rather than a Boss fight that requires coordination across 10 NPCs. I mean, it would still be the same fight ...

Its pretty clearly a PVP encounter.

The mobs are all representations of player classes, they use the same spells & attacks as the players. They coordinate & support each other to a minor extent.

Its as close as blizz can make a boss encounter to a PVP brawl.

Vulgrym
08-23-2009, 07:35 AM
Its pretty clearly a PVP encounter.

The mobs are all representations of player classes, they use the same spells & attacks as the players. They coordinate & support each other to a minor extent.

Its as close as blizz can make a boss encounter to a PVP brawl.

Except for the small detail that the second "P" is missing from "PvP". And that the NPCs use a TINY subset of what those Classes would actually use. And that they each have about 2.5M health. I'm glad you qualified coordination and support between them with "to a minor extent" because they do some pretty comical stuff, specifically in regards to overlapping CC (mentioned elsewhere in this thread). It's also fairly predictable (eg. Ice Block or Bubble at low health).

Look, I acknowledge the flavor that Blizzard is going after here. The only point I'm trying to make is that some are bringing a misplaced hatred for Arenas and PvP to this and it may even be hampering their success. I mean, the detestable stuff that people usually highlight from Arenas (that I also dislike) is largely absent in this encounter. You're not brutally constrained by your "team comp" . There isn't an asshat on the other side who's going to start /spitting on you. It's not a "twitch" contest between you and a crazed 13 year old.

If you've been playing MMOs for a long time, wouldn't you appreciate the replayability of something like this? I guess raiding is such a routine to me that I like the odd Boss fight that a) makes me use abilities I never get to use and b) forces me to evaluate the enemy before actually engaging them each time.

Malefik
08-23-2009, 07:58 AM
For 10 man, we went from swearing at our monitors a few nights ago to a virtual 2-shot tonight by utilising a really key bit of info. We had 2 tanks (me a DK specced and geared DPS and a Prot Warrior) with 3 healers and 5 DPS. Make sure your DPS is able to CC in some fashion.

We had 2 DK's, so we started the pull in a very novel fashion, which worked wonders for us. Both DK's lined up behind each other at max Death Grip range. Rogue opened with a sap on the warlock, the mage sheeped the other ranged DPS (shad priest) leaving a warrior, ret pally, resto shammy and resto druid up. We made it clear that the resto shammy should drop first (I HIGHLY recommend this, his BL and totems are just nasty!).

As the CC was applied by a countdown in raid chat, the DK Death Gripped the resto shammy into the middle. I immediately (and with my Army of Ghouls newly risen while the sap was being applied!) pulled the Shammy back again. This meant we ended up with our first target at the back of the room, and the casters all CC'ed. We left the resto druid to his own devices.

After I pulled him in, I broke off with the prot warrior to deal with the now closing NPC Ret Pally and Warrior. Our DPS unleashed on the shammy and got him down quick, as he didn't have the resto druid (who I had Chain of Iced as I ran to the pally) to heal him. We then focused on the resto druid and nailed him down with interrupts while we took him/her out.

Once the healers were gone, the fight was cake. The melee NPC's were kited/slowed/taunted/stunned as much as possible, so they didn't get near our own clothies. We took them out next and then focused on the cloth DPS. Our raid priest went BERZERK on Mass Dispel. If you can say that there is one class requirement for this raid, it is a priest! IN saying that, we didn't have bloodlust but with other abilities (such as Army of the Dead etc) we didn't need it. 2 tanks are great for neutralising 2 of their melee DPS. Swap targets from time to time with each other if you have to.

We learned three very valuable lessons though which I think is key to victory in both 10 and 25:
1. Seperate/isolate your first DPS target as best you can. If that means Frost Novaing/Hungering Cold on the group of NPC's and Death Gripping/Taunting the first mob, do it. But once you get 1 down without minimal interference, you can quickly build the momentum to get the other healers down. The fight becomes a joke once you do this, and it just keeps getting easier and easier. The pull organisation is key.

2. Befuddle the NPC's targeting with armies of your own adds/pets/companions. I popped my ghouls at the start and watched with amusement as the NPC's went for these multiple targets instead of us! Have a rotation, I popped mine, once mine were down, the mage popped Mirror Images, once they went down our other DK popped his Ghoul Army as well. Distraction is key! Hunter snake traps also work well I have been told, but don't pop everything at once. Have a steady stream of alternate targets for the NPC's!

3. Rotate your targets. Be a jack of all trades, and don't be blinkered into having one target. DPS one target before breaking off and slowing another one. CC another one, and go back to DPSing the primary target. Anything you can do to help, will go a long way! Have your CCer's have two targets they must swap between to circumvent the diminishing returns.

All in all, best of luck. I went from hating this fight to having a lot of fun with it and can't wait to do it next week. We also wore full PvE gear, with no trinkets. In hindsight, trinkets could be useful, and could make this fight even easier.

Suffer well.

Orcgazmo
08-23-2009, 04:36 PM
We spent about an hour tring to figure out what we wanted to do.

In the end we brought in 3 Locks and 3 mages into the fight. After we did that... we cleared it. We seperated them into Lock/Mage teams to focus CC on 2 targets for each team. When the DR was up the lock/Mage combos would switch off Poly/fear casts on their 2 assignesd targets. They were able to CC 6 mobs very easily.

For our run we were up against the Resto Shaman, Disc Priest, and Resto Druid. Kill order was Sham, then Priest. We just left a Lock on the Druid the entire fight to spam Fear and banish.

It was hell at 1st but once we understood what was really going on... it was cake. We are very confident that we can 1 shot this on 25man next reset (Provideded we face teh same mobs again)

Konnichiwa
08-23-2009, 08:39 PM
I am not sure if this has been brought up in any previous post but tonight we discovered that the NPC's aren't using the most up-to-date spells. We had an enhancement shaman that was still able to interrupt using Earth Shock.

We were in 10 man version and went up against a lock, enh sham, rogue, arc mage, tree druid and holy/disc priest. We had a ton of trouble as the druid's HoT's ticked for about 25-26k. There were interrupts and spell locks galore in this group and healing was especially tough. The strat we attempted to employ started with burning down the felhunter followed by the priest while attempting to CC mobs here and there. We had no luck...

Daimon
08-23-2009, 09:16 PM
Well, last night we got in 10man:
Enh Shamman
Rogue
Mage
Disc Priest
Resto Druid
Warlock + Felhunter

We had: Mage (who went to pvp frost spec, and it helped tonz), Warlock, Holy Priest, Ehn Shammy x 2 (1 went resto), Rogue x 2, Feral, Holy Pally, and me Prot Warrior.

After many wipes we realiced this:
1- Resto Druid must be CC (banish works untill inmune, then Fear him.
2- Disc Pirest was fearing, penacing and topping everybody, so he must die 1st.
3- Rogue if not dealt with him soon would rape our clothies how he was doing.
4- Mage is the least of your concerns since the sheep can and was being cleansed and he was blinking too much for us to try him 1st.
5- Totems must be killed ASAP

We had 5 in mele so we had 1 ennh shammy go healing and that way we removed ppl from melee range (Be spread is the key, they need to spend time to reach you and if you make that time longer you'll win, that was what made us succed after all)
Let me tell you Prot Warriors are pro at this, much better CC/kicks/locks with healers than Fury/Arms so dont go OS if you are one (first time prot pallys dont shine imo)
We sapped Mage and Lock, banished druid and Warrior opening the fight with charge and intimidating shout is golden, then sheeped the rogue, used heroism on the start, stun lock and killed the priest, then the same w the rogue, then shammy, then lock and pet, then druid, then mage = gg.

Tip with the rogue: have a mage frost kitting him after all CC breaks is very good, he has preference for cloth and a good mage kitter rocks here.
Another thing key: have a shammy purging all the HOTS in the dps target, druid will break CC fast and he will HOT him non stop.

again that was for that configuration

Reij
08-24-2009, 05:26 AM
I don't understand this mentality at all. This is far from a PvP encounter, despite it kind of looking like one. The NPCs aren't going to do something unpredictable, fake-cast to bait your own casts, etc. Your guild was stymied by a Paladin bubble? Seriously? Maybe your raid members aren't used to using things like Shattering Throw or Mass Dispel, or swapping en masse onto another target, quickly putting up a healing debuff and then disrupting the healer, but this isn't rocket science, it's just a matter of execution as is the case in any PvE encounter.

I wonder if there was no such thing as Arenas in this game if people would still view this as a "PvP encounter" rather than a Boss fight that requires coordination across 10 NPCs. I mean, it would still be the same fight ...

If it's far from a PVP encounter, but still "kind of [looks] like one", then how would this be described? I am not familiar with many bossfights where DR is a factor (for a moment I almost brought up the Moorabi fight in GD, but then remembered that the transform cast time is not tied to DR but how much health he has), please educate me if this is not the case. The 75% reduction in AOE damage is a hard pill to swallow after Blizz has trained everyone to just gather groups of mobs together and AOE them down. (Linking trash pull strategies are poor descriptors, but I'm willing to bet this is the first thing most groups attempted if they had NOT seen a strategy before engaging these mobs.)

This is clearly a PVP-style encounter as it forces people to take into account several things that normally do not apply in a PVE encounter:

-DR on CC
-Almost a complete lack of an aggro table (almost)
-a nasty buff (75% AOE Dmg reduction) for the enemies that is a clear departure from the current Blizzard mindset.

I'm willing to say we perhaps just did not have the DPS to clear this fight, or that we still don't have a complete grasp on the encounter. My post wasn't intended to be a "OMG, I hate PVP!!" statement. Perhaps instead of choosing to interpret the post like that, someone could have offered a bit of advice for a group that continues to admit that this PVP-style encounter gave them a rather hard time.

Forgive me!

priapus
08-24-2009, 06:31 AM
FoK interrupt (throwing specialization in combat tree) specced rogue ftw - no crowd control required. over 70 interrupts and wound/crippling poison on all...good for razorscale adds too. i died of course like i always do but after the heals and several other faction guys were down and it was not hard after that. Having the priest on mass dispel duty rather than healing is helpful too.

Fetzie
08-24-2009, 06:41 AM
Three elements are key to this encounter:
Crowd Control
Dispells
Not panicking

After we got these three things sorted, they went down fairly easily

Imvran
08-24-2009, 03:24 PM
there is one thing to remember is my exsperience, only in 10 man for my part..

but think PVP..!! it is essential, think pvp..

Use all inttrupts, stuns, bubble all pvp aspect of your char EVEN in pve spec use em when ever you can, i played a frost mage and didnt have High dps in this fight in 10 man, but i surely slowed, kited CS the mage boomkin etc.

And our fight we where left with only 2 dead.! and that was our second try only .! so it can be done if ppl think PVP and not PVE

Radyor
08-24-2009, 06:49 PM
we noticed the champions are tauntable for the duration of the taunt. also large burts damage can also redirect their attention. had all the warriors go prot. they work much similar at the very least like rogues by keepin the mobs stunned up. Spam the heck outta the 'taunt bad guy button' and this makes for plenty of room for the remaining dps and heals to do their jobs

Belfast
08-25-2009, 06:52 AM
Hand of Reckoning does work. As a Ret Pally I kited the Rogue with HoR and JoJ. I fully dotted him up with SoV to keep him from vanishing on me. On the few prior failed attempts he was running wild killing our priests so I decided to simply HoR him right at the initial pull and just kite him around the outside of the arena. I changed to my PvP offspec for a little more survivability, reduced fear, improved Righteous Fury, reduced HoP cooldown, the improvement to HoF etc. etc. I kept SS up on myself and was giving myself instant heals the same as I would if I was in a BG or whatever. I did need a heal from time to time but didn't feel like I was in too much danger. The further I kept him from everyone else the less likely he was to change focus. I noticed some diminishing returns but the DR seemingly would reset every so often and then I'd stun him. . .

In our kill we took down the Shaman first, the healing Priest 2nd and left the Holy Pally for last pretty much. After two of the healers were dead we swithced to the Warrior because he seemed to be eating the cloth wearers up the most with Bladestorm and whatnot. Then we focused rogue so I started kiting the DK around a hunter's frost trap which was hilarious for me because I hate being kited around that stuff in arena. Whenever I saw someone that was low on health I'd change focus to burn down the guy with low health and then switch back to kiting which is a lot like I would do in the BGs. Have my friends do all the dirty work and then I swoop in for the killing blow. ;) I can't remember what order we killed everything else in but at that point it's easy sauce anyway.

We actually 24 manned the successful attempt as it was getting late and peeps were starting to log off to go to bed. No point in me mentioning that I guess.

In regards to this being a PvE or PvP fight, I can say this: The experience I've gotten in BGs and Arena has made me a better raider. It improves one's situational awareness. I for one, think this is the most fun fight thus far and I hope to see more like it in the future.

--It didn't occur to me at the time but I would think that Righteous Defense would work as well in between HoR cooldowns, which I believe are only 8 seconds to begin with. I'll try this on Wednesday and get back to ya.

devastma
08-25-2009, 06:57 AM
I have good tips, my guild tried this for 3 days with few tries, we were having a lot of issues on the first 2 days. Got this monday on the last shot.

If you didnt manage to kill yet, read this:

-Dont give up. Put your guild to do it as max as you can.

The basics of this fight:

-Assign the ccers and most important, keep em alive at all costs. If they die is unlikely that you will pick it up with a good pace. Make clear to the CCers that first come their survival and then comes the CC.

-Tanks ARE GOOD on this fight. They can take out the meeles from the game and the meeles are the big couse of wipes if not controlled. We assigned 3 tanks for 3 meeles.

-If you get the resto druid, lock him down. The combo Banish/cyclone is the best in game for locking down, it wont break. Have the druid learn how to lock down a target using the bear and cat form. We killed the druid for last.

-The rogue needs to be controled. CC on him is not good, have him tanked by a prot warrior or a dk or have him killed fast. We killed him after the holy priest. On our many many wipes, ppl always complained about the rogue killing 1 by one. If your guild cant manage scape from him, have him controled and killed fast.

This fight is all about practice. I almost gave up, but after you understand the fight and keep trying, gets easy. After the 25, we got the 10 man in less than 20 minutes. Rolled over em.

Luci
08-25-2009, 09:09 AM
To all the people QQ'ing about that it's a PvP fight:
I haven't played a single arena match in my entire life, last bg was i think a wg a month ago, but this boss is really just another test of your (and moreso than other fights this raid) team's abilities.

You still play against a computer. I'm speaking from a healer's perspective, you wouldn't stand in a PvE's boss' melee range if you knew he could throw a ww, no? Maybe treating this encounter as a boss dropping aggro one would help?
Ok, maybe it requires you to think outside your normal framework, but given so much complaining about how easy wow is is not necessarily a bad thing.
It is not the first fight where dispelling is important (heigan, noth), not the first time where you will get mob's attention (Wolf or Supremus I think).

But it's still a computer programmed to do certain things, which once known and gotten used to will be as trivial as the previous fights.

Widdox
08-25-2009, 10:35 AM
--It didn't occur to me at the time but I would think that Righteous Defense would work as well in between HoR cooldowns, which I believe are only 8 seconds to begin with. I'll try this on Wednesday and get back to ya.

It does but you will still need to stun from time to time. I did the same thing last raid.. I took the rogue as my little friend throughout the entire fight. used HoR and RD. When it would go immune I would stun then taunt again when the stun wore off.

The prot warrior put his Viligence on me. Since I was being constantly attacked and he just taunted everything in sight. (mostly the ret pally, warrior and felpuppy) Basically he did nothing but stand near the edge of the room and taunt. Everytime I got hit his taunt came up. He was able to keep them on him. Thus taking the melee out of the fight. Our healers just kept us alive. This allowed the raid to focus ont eh casters and healers.

Zortrax
08-25-2009, 12:33 PM
Here's a nice strat for frost mages to CC one melle for the entire fight.

For this u need to go full frost, get all the abilities that increase chill duration.

Target the Pally, warrior or maybe the DK. I only tested it on the ret pally.

Start by casting polymorh on the pally, try to be far from everyone else, this way its less likely the adds will attack you and your frost novas wont break the other players CC. In all my tries the paladin was in right of the formation. I flanked him to cast the cc.

After the first 9 secs of poly, cast it again, u will have more 5 secs. Meanwhile u cant try to help dpsing the other adds.

When the poly is about to fade, cast frost nova. He wont move and he doesnt use BoP or hand of freedon, he will only cast a ranged ability that will cause 8k dmg. Frost nova have a 8 sec duration, cast deep freeze when it reaches 1 sec. This way he will be cc for another 5 secs. By the time deep freeze fades, the diminish return will also fade.

Start the rotation again, using poly, poly, frost nova, deep freeze. If your frost nova is in CD, cast cone of cold to slow him.

If any other melle attack you, use Ice Block immediately.

With this strat, u wont help much on dps, but will null one of the champions.

We only lost 3 members in this fight, and this was our second night of tries.

Mideon
08-25-2009, 02:03 PM
From our experience we found it easiest to have alot of DPS classes, spec into PVP specs and use those abilities durring the fight. Shadowfury, FOK interuption, Typhoon, Etc. Being that the mobs have a limited CC duration the gain of all these new forms of CC made the fight much much easier. Of course chain fears, and Banishes on some of the targets as well as any other CC type moves. The fight was very fun and challenging.

Of course sticking to - Burn the healers first worked as well, although we opted to take out the rogue after knocking out 2 healers to stop his random extreme damage.

Zellviren
08-25-2009, 06:03 PM
Alas, I just don't get it. I've read the vast majority of posts on this; some find the fight a breath of fresh air, others a lazy and cheap attempt at variety. Personally, I confess to being with the latter group. I hate this fight and don't want PvP in my PvE encounters.

I understand people are arguing that it's not a PvP encounter, but it really is. Diminishing returns, a complete lack of threat or reliable CC and people being continually locked and stunned are all hallmarks of an arena fight.

It has no business in PvE.

Those who say "they are NPC's who don't do anything you wouldn't expect" are badly missing the point. I don't expect a mage to start using Fan of Knives in arena, either.

Saying all that, this is TankSpot's least useful video to date. I understand the Coliseum is not of the same magnitude of Naxxramas or Ulduar, but this video should, in my opinion, be redone - it contains very little of use and, unfortunately, is inaccurate in places. It also doesn't highlight the most salient points that we found when we finally got this encounter down.

To me, here are the main points to note (10 man):

1) The six NPC's consist of two melee DPS, two ranged and two healers. No more, no less.
2) The two melee DPS are by far and away the most dangerous of the six and MUST be managed.
3) Your raid MUST understand the importance of saving itself and showing durability, vice reliance on healers and just nuking. An immobile player will be a dead player very quickly.

Here's how we did it:

Raid makeup was two tanks (warrior and paladin), two healers (discipline priest and druid) and six DPS.

We used two tanks and had each one take one of the melee enemies. While Taunt suffers from diminishing returns, you can still use other abilities to keep these mobs away from more vulnerable raid members. As a protection warrior, I have Concussion Blow, Shockwave and Intimidating Shout with which to lock down mobs and you should never underestimate how good Demoralizing Shout and Thunderclap are in this fight. If you're good and want to start switching stances, Hamstring is also tip top. Spell Reflect should also always be on cooldown.

The healers have to die first and I recommend picking the one with the lowest armour first. Application of the Mortal Strike debuff helps wonderfully, while a designated interrupt should be assigned to the one that is to be killed second. We also had a warlock use Curse of Tongues on the healer currently being killed. If the holy paladin happens to be part of the group make up you're faced with, they will bubble themselves or their team mates when they hit 30% health. Have Mass Dispel or Shattering Throw ready for it. Believe me - the fight loses 70% of its difficulty when the healers die, so all of your effort should go into this.

Take a holy/discipline priest and tell them to spam the hell out of Mass Dispel. Honestly. One healer is enough to top off people getting attacked while the fight is going on and Mass Dispel will see your raid with more freedom. Look for an average of over 200 dispels throughout the fight.

Do not bother with too much CC after the pull. Things like Polymorph and Death Coil could be used on random enemies to avoid diminishing returns, but CC is not as helpful as you may think. The exception to the rule in this case is Piercing Howl - it's terrific.

In any event, I can summarise by saying:

Kill the two healers first.
Lock down the two melee as much as you possibly can.
Spam dispels.
Stay mobile and work to survive.

I have loved Project Marmot from its inception and our guild wouldn't have gotten through half of what it has without it. The videos on this site are required viewing for all of my raiders.

But this one needs redone. Seriously, I got almost nothing from it and it is, in fact, flat out wrong in one of its most fundamental assertions (the part about one healer).

Noraxe
08-25-2009, 06:41 PM
Same here Akeber :) Our raid leader is one of those people that hate pvp the most in the guild, but he loves this fight. As does the tank team. Dunno why though. Got the 25 man kill today.
Some bad mistakes in the beginning resulted in alot of people dying so in the end it was 3 of the tanks, 3 mages, 1 resto druid, 1 holy pally and 2 random dps fighting. Ofcourse the resto druids combat ress was on cd and the shamans had ankh cds >_<
Took us 16:25 mins to kill ^^ No trinket though :/

huggy77
08-25-2009, 10:00 PM
we beat this last week, this week we could not kill the totems in 25, did anything change?

Mr.Winkle
08-26-2009, 02:30 AM
I have to agree with Zeelviren on this one, i don't think the 10man video really gave me any useful advice other than we'd be facing 6 mobs.

Our 10man tried the Faction Champs for the first time last night and got our asses handed to us on a plate.

I must admit there were a lot of mistakes made mind you, it certianly does punish players not used to doing arena. Every spell in the book has to be used on this fight and a lot of PvE players who have spent many a month refining dps rotations are just not used to the requirements of this fight.

Still an interesting fight none the less and a bit of a refeshing chnage i guess.

Eowynxsi
08-26-2009, 02:32 AM
First of let me say i only have experience with 10 man. Mass dispells and FoK is a god send in this fight. Focus fire also helps to shorthen the agony.
But most important thing with this fight is mentality.
Problem today is that everyone in PvE is a slacker and those that say otherwise should just look at boss fights. Players on normal bosses train so many times that they know what ability comes at what times, what to do in response to that and so on. And once you master a fight (read know it by hearth) you can slack all you want.
This fight is different in nature, as all fights should be imo. This fight represents a boss that has random abilities on aproximatly same level as players that uses them in same fashion as players and responds on our abilities acordingly.

Why is this fight impossible for many? Becouse they are used to bosses that are easy. The moment they face factions champions they a petrified becouse they actually have to play 100% like imo bosses should be played.

So change mentality, dont whine but rather start knowing your class and work as a team and this boss will fall naturally.

Mr.Winkle
08-26-2009, 02:32 AM
we beat this last week, this week we could not kill the totems in 25, did anything change?

I'm guessing the opponents you faced had changed for last week to this week. One of the "problems" with this fight is going to be the differing combinations of opponents you face each week.

Daimon
08-26-2009, 10:01 AM
Got the 25 man version down in 3 attempts last night after wiping 5 times the prior day.


Enemy Set up

BACK ROW : Hunter | Resto Druid | Disc Priest | Resto Shaman | Ret Pally

FRONT ROW : Mage (arcane) | Rogue | Death Knight (unholy?) | Arms Warrior | Warlock (image below is from the previous night w/ Shadow Priest)
1. Enemy Healers Shaman - kill target #1, Priest - kill target #2, Druid (tree) - kill target #3.

All dps on Shaman. Prot warrior (me) and rogue were assigned to Priest for butt tons of interrupts and stuns. Druid (tree) was left to be a. banished, b. feared, and c. left alone pretty much.

The initial pull and burning down of kill target #1 is the most important part of the fight.

2. Initial Pull - Prot warrior charges in at Priest - kill target #2 (who is positioned at the back center of cluster) at the same time Fury warrior charges in at Ret Pally on the far right end. Immediately I thunder clap and Intimidating shout which scatters the entire left half of the crowd, and my fellow fury warrior charges in to fear the other half (especially the warlock and two dps plate baddies). This spreads the mobs around and allows for a singling out of Shaman - kill target #1.

3. Dps down. Go epileptic on Shaman - kill target #1. Heroism/tricks/fok/army/dispell/stun/blood boil/you name it. At about 80-70% dmg on shaman the baddies start to regroup, have a warlock fear the warrior. Put blind or something on dk, not essential but those two plate dps-ers (DK and Warrior) are the only two to occasionally be aware of and cc when they start coming back.

This in contrast to other strats above that have DKs use death grip, chains of ice and taunt. Ours DKs didnt want to go frost, instead they keep the blood spec on for massive dps. This requires non bads in the raid to be on the watch for Whirlwind and Aggro and snare/trap/root/cc/whatever to fend them off.
4. Once Shaman is down burn Priest - kill target #2 which has been locked up till then. Have warrior and rogue then move to Druid (tree) - kill target #3 Just to annoy interrupt and whatever so that priest can be nuked. Once the priest & tree is dead its all about plate baddies.

All healers dead? good

5. Kill warrior or DK, I'd go with warrior. Disarm, taunt, stun, repeat, then DK same thing. At this point a semblance of a normal tanking raid encounter is established. Both Tanks can now taunt/charge/intercept/revenge/concussion/ on the same target. Best policy would be to stun/lock/fear/wtvr on dk (there should be a new name for this kind of cc, the "oh-shit" cc)

DPS jerks gone? nice

6. Kill Warlock and Boomkin if you have one.

- After this it's your ball game. We paid attention to the Rogue, and Ret Pally, but they were scrubs so we didn't sweat it too much. Last to go was the Hunter.

Got my Girdle of Bloodied Scars (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47072) last night because my fellow Tankadin felt charitable. GL!



We had this group last night, and after few attempts we decied to call it, We have a problem with your strat just because the facts that rogue was raping the hell out our healers, there are few things we didn'nt do, like being spread enough or letting the NPC to gather up, so my questiong is:

How effective is to assign tanks/kitters to babysit the plate wearers and that rogue? we have 2 prot warriors (that can go DPS but we choose not to, due the better CC/stuns in prot) and 2-3 hunters that can kitte things very well, would you say:

Shaman > DK > Priest > Rogue? > Casters?

We found that the druid is easy to control using locks to banish/fear and a shamman to purge spam the DPS target to remove HOTS.

We think that killing 2 healers on a row will increase the dmg on our raid and will make things easier for our healers/CCers.

Any suggestion?

huggy77
08-26-2009, 10:29 AM
so the totems are still killable... just cant be targeted with macros...

jaydee
08-26-2009, 10:00 PM
Downed this again this week on 10-man. Compared to last week though, this week seemed a whole lot easier. We cleared this from first boss to the twins in under an hour. We were expecting this fight to take a lot of time, since last week, we wiped a few times on this. But this week, we did it with one try. Has this been nerfed?

How we did this was to burn down the healers quickly, while having someone kite the rogue and the warrior. Two plates that had taunt abilities (Warrior and Deathknight) were assigned to do this. Chaining the rogue consistently and notifying the raid of it's current target really helped keep his damage under control. Same thing with the warrior.

Anyone else find this encounter a lot easier now than last week?

LazarusAdam
08-27-2009, 03:22 AM
Downed this yesterday on 10 man

Opponent composition:
Holy Paladin, Resto Shaman, SV Hunter, Arcane Mage, Frost DK, Arms Warrior

Order of Destruction:
Shaman, DK, Warrior, Mage, Paladin, Hunter's pet(although kinda unnecessary), Hunter.

Was kinda smooth. Take down one healer, and keep up a constant barrage of interrupts and stuns on the other while the rest of the group got burned down.

Bebelo
08-27-2009, 06:14 AM
Guild: Os Intocáveis

Our 10 man core had no problems with the encounter, after 1 wipe on the first week we defeated them with 2 casualties. This week we had it 1 shotted.
Group we faced was: Holy Pally / Resto Druid / Enhance Shaman / Hunter / Lock / Mage
Second week: Resto Druid / Holy (?) Priest / DK / Warrior / Rogue / Mage

Both times were pretty much standard PvP priorities... We tried locking the druid on our first attempt, but CC just won't hold him enough. Banish is dispellable, and is too short after the first application.

We decided to focus him down first, moving to the Enhance Shaman / Rogue as a second target... These were the most dangerous DPSers, Rogue can Shadowstep+Fok (or fu**) a clothie very quickly with the aid of wound + cripp poison, and the shaman needs one person to be stomping totems all the time, nearly locking one person down as long as he's alive.

A melee heavy group proved to be far harder than our first week's encounter, best ways to keep them slowed were Piercing howl+ Frost Trap. Entangling roots and Chains of Ice will only cut it if no one on their side can dispell (They are extremely efective at doing so). Even so, any member being focused by 2 melee is most surely dead if not protected immediately.


Our 25 man group got pounded endlessly both weeks. We still didnt score kill on them. This week we had the best results with a unusual strategy.

Their raid was: Rogue / Warrior / DK / Ret Pally / Resto Druid / Resto Shaman / Holy Priest / Mage / Hunter / Shadow Priest

Our strategy consists of a chain-use of Death Grip, isolating one of their healers out of their range at the very start of the fight.

Our raid was at the extreme opposite side of the room, with a DK, a hunter and a warrior in the middle of the room.

1- The DK starts the pull with DG, the warrior immediately charges+Swap defensive+Shield wall + Challenging roar and Piercing Howl Spam. Meanwhile, the hunter has to set the frost trap in their path. After they start ignoring the warrior, it's the time to use Intimidating shout.

2- After the first DK used DG, a second one, on the side of the raid uses it right away. Our Skull was the resto druid, we had to burn him down with Blood Lust in 20 secs or so, before his group could aid him. We had a rogue using his stuns, followed by Silence. It was enough time to burn him down in every try.

Notes: Our middle Map DK was frost specced, so hungering cold was also used to hold the team down before the Intimidating Shout.

We still couldnt defeat the 10 of them after burning his 1st healer. Their melee, specially the rogue, can burn down clothies very quickly.

Dispelling our next focus kept me (Shadowpriest) locked in almost every GCD. I had 90-200 Dispells in every attempt. Not dispelling those HoT's / Earth shield makes it impossible to burn anything else down.

Yet, our best try was killing Resto druid then the rogue. I guess the best third would be the shaman, since his instants need someone perma-dispelling and his totems need someone fully dedicated to destroying them.

Halgreg
08-27-2009, 03:11 PM
We finally downed this in our guild last night on 25-man. One of the strategies we employed was doing man on man coverage for the targets and having everyone else rest of the raid focus on their healers one by one (druid, shaman, priest). Hunter, Mage, and Shadow priest were controlled by dedicated ranged folk while the melee (Rogue, Warrior, DK, and Ret Pally) were "tanked" one on one by tanks and plate melee. I was on the Ret Pally to dispel any shields he put up with shield slam, and I stayed in prot spec.

I had a lot of fun with this fight. I cycled in every stun I had (improved revenge when it lit up, concussion blow, shockwave, tauren stomp, warbringer charge), Shield Bashed for interrupts and the daze snare effect, disarmed, and intimidating shouted, as well as kept him debuffed with demo shout and thunderclap. If he was still getting away, I regularly taunted to keep him focused on me and to lure him into a position where I can do revenge on him. Shockwave, Intimidating Shout, and even Challenging Shout were good to keeping a group of mobs (if he happened to run into a group) distracted while the focus fire group did their job on their healers.

All in all, it comes down to the fact that they have 10 and you have 25. If you assign people to "cover" them to keep them busy, then assemble the others to really burn down their healers, then you just muscle them out by sheer numbers.

Ah yes, one last thing. If you do decide to go this route, wear a set that will grant you rage from the damage you do (i.e. a DPS focused set) because otherwise, you will most likely get rage starved.

Wingnut
08-27-2009, 04:20 PM
All three of our 10 man teams destroyed this, but when we got to 25 man, it was a completely different story. As soon as we pull, the NPCs zerg our healers. We tried alot of different methods, but the healers are just getting destroyed. Tried several different angles of cc too. Funny thing is, we one shot everything up to this fight.

jaydee
08-27-2009, 08:25 PM
Tried this again on 25-man last night. We managed to down this last week, but not last night.

For the rogue, what we did was have me try to keep him away by cycling through taunts, death grips and chains of ice. It's pretty effective, just be sure to save death grip for when he shadow steps.

Most we were able to achieve was down 2 healers, (Priest + Holy Pally) but by the time we were drilling down the Resto Druid, half the raid's already down.

It's best to have the dangerous Melee bosses marked, and have your cloth-wearers ready to run whenever they see the mark close to them.

The warrior Bladestorming within the pack of DPS drilling down the heals is also a bad idea.

We then thought about having 4 DKs opening up with 4x armies, but that ended up with half the raid DCing :D

Next attempt, I'll spec for Hungering Cold and Chillbains for this fight. Just for the sole purpose of kiting/cc.

Dwaermathrax
08-28-2009, 09:24 AM
I hate to say but our guild is getting ROFLstomped by the 25 man version of this. We have 2 clears of the 10 man for each of 2 different 10 man groups.

I understand to have tanks lock up melee, and cc everyone else. But, I feel like we are failing at the CC. Could someone please treat me like I don't know anything about raid leading and explain who they have CCing and in what order? We have at least 2 of every class in our 25 man. It seems like the Hunter's cool down is too long and the druids doesn't last long enough, bleh. I think I just don't understand CC as well as some of you.

Thanks!
DW

rambaral
08-28-2009, 10:56 AM
I'm not sure I mentioned this here yet but we had over 200 interrupts from Fan of Knives spam on our kill. The ability to do this will be removed in 3.2.2 but for this week at least it's very valuable to know. (Aliena noted it in her movie as well)

The number of interrupts from FoK is inflated due to a bug in how it gets parsed, I believe it's around 7 times the actual amount IIRC (still alot).

The fact remains though that FoK will break CC, so using it to apply poisons/interrupt is a judgment call on priorities. The ability to interrupt is indeed going away in 3.2.2, so another judgment call is if you want to use it now - making it harder when it gets removed - or to go ahead and get used to it not being there.

One final point is that thrown spec (making FoK able to interrupt) is deep in the combat tree, not something a PVP rogue would have in their build, so if you are having your raid spec PVP for the fight, that ability likely won't be there.

Daimon
08-28-2009, 12:26 PM
After a late night of wipes (4-5) We went the next day and was 1 shoot, this is what we learned:
In 25m or 10m the golden strat is: use tanks to taunt the plate wearers and the melee (Rogue/Shammy/Feral) even they behave as PVP taunt works wonderful, I was "tanking" the rogue and basically when I got the inmune and he was going for a clothie, then /charge /CB and taunt again when breaks and start all the taun spam. Even when they just focus you for half a second they won't return to the same previous target therefore they won't hit a player more than once.
They rly behave sort of PVE in that matter.
Do not put too much CC in each since you want to nuke the healers, just control the 3rd healer and have everybody to random CC the mobs and kill the 1st two or do healer>dps>healer>dps.
We killed: resto shamman>rogue>Disc Priest> DK>Warr>Ret > casters
after the plates are dead you win. SP, Lock, mage and hunter didn't pose any difficulty at all.
After the healers kill the plate melee ASAP and you win, controlling the rogue is very easy for a prot warr.

Nicole
08-29-2009, 02:18 PM
The odd thing is that you guys always talk about the melee being the most dangerous, such as DK, ret paladin, Warrior, Rogue, but when we look at our meters it's always the locks, mages and shadowpriest being top on damage out of the enemies, even when we don't have tanks on the melee. I wish there was a way to find out which enemy has the most killing blows, because maybe that would be a better statistic to look at, but for example one of our Holy Pallies said the mage 2 shot him.

Grawr
08-29-2009, 02:51 PM
We found the melee tended to do higher damage out put in a shorter space of time, where as the casters were doing constant fairly low damage. ie burst vs sustained, with the sustained showing up higher on the meters but being much easier to counter. Having both tanked and healed this encounter I can say it's kinda hard to heal through a melee burst on a holy priest when you're locked out of your spells. :(

Brittmari
08-30-2009, 01:56 AM
I'm baffled by the people who post that this is a pvp encounter. The most common argument is that the mechanic of diminishing returns on cc is in effect. This is a boss fight, right? What other boss fights allow cc at all? So if all the Champions were immune to cc, that would make it a pve fight?

Another argument is that there are 10 bosses. So that makes High King Maulgar and Fathom-Lord Kalithress pvp fights too?

Random aggro tables and different threat mechanics are nothing new either.

Stop thinking of this as a pvp encounter, learn each npc's abilities and vulnerabilities, look through your spellbooks at all the abilities you don't have on your bar and you'll be 90% of the way to defeating the Faction Champions.

Nicole: Another reason the ranged do more damage to your raid is because they are ranged. They select a target and start doing damage. The melee have to move to their target before starting damage, and if your raiders are any good, they are already running away. So there is much more uptime on ranged npc attacks than there is on melee npcs. As far as seeing Killing Blows from npcs, you should upload your combatlogs to World of Logs and you can see quickly how each person in your raid died. Not really statistics, but very useful for your purposes.

jaydee
08-30-2009, 11:28 AM
Downed this tonight on 25 man on a single attempt with just one person dead but b'ressed. This is the outline of the tactic that worked for us.



Identify the dangerous melee bosses (Rogue, Warrior, Paladin, DK) and each of these bosses get one healer assigned to them.
The assigned healers should have "target of target" enabled so they know which raid member these bosses are going for.
These healers should heal whoever these bosses are targeting, preempting any attempt to burn down any raid member
A peeler/kiter needs to be assigned to these dangerous melee bosses as well. Prot warrior stuns and DK kiting talents are extremely useful here, as well as the talented Death Grip (chillbains + death grip works great against the rogue's sstep).
Keep interrupts on each of the boss healers.
Burn down the healers one by one.
Make sure you don't let the warrior lose within your burn down group.

LazarusAdam
08-31-2009, 03:42 AM
I think people are misconstruing what some of the posters are saying. It is not a PVP encounter... it is PVP style. Where you have to think both as a PVP player and a PVE player. You can't just use straight PVE tactics. You opponents in this fight use some of the same mechanics that a good PVP team will use, including trinkets, CoS, Paladin BoPs, etc.. I am not a good PVPer, but I have to think like one in this fight. I have to keep an eye open, as a hunter, and not just sit in a standard shot rotation. I have to be ready to tranq away BoPs, Hots, Heroisms, etc. to keep us from getting blown down by the burst dmg after some of the AoEs buffs that get cast. I also have to be ready to trap any given ranged that is doing mass dmg to the group. Things that don't normally get done in a standard boss fight but is quite often done in PVP.

So when people say it is a PVP fight, they are half right. It is a PVP scenario in a PVE wrapping.

Nicole: Britt is correct. Ranged doesn't usually have to move to start dmg, where as a melee class has to get into melee range to start doing damage. That could take as much as 1-2 seconds and in that time a ranged could already be as much as 4-10k ahead of the melee in total damage and already have as many as 2-3 DoTs or spell effects that increase the damage they do. So when you see that the SPriests, Mages, Warlocks, and sometimes the Hunters are up on the top of the damage charts, that is completely normal.

Muffin Man
08-31-2009, 12:06 PM
-a nasty buff (75% AOE Dmg reduction) for the enemies that is a clear departure from the current Blizzard mindset.


This comment comes up a lot with regards to this fight. So this isn't just directed at you, but there are several fights where Blizzard has made it impossible to just AoE everything down.

Freya +3 the detonating lashers will probably kill your group if you try to AoE them down. (Oh and they drop aggro and chase random people just like this encounter too...)

4 HM when it first came out, the marks would deal too much damage and most raids didn't have enough dps to stack thane and baron in the back to aoe two horsemen at a time (not to mention the two in the back didn't even move).

IC, they heal to full whenever you kill one, so no point AoE-ing them down.

Emalon adds - they didn't heal to full, but one spawned whenever one died, so you only AoE-ed to pad the dps meters (seen plenty of people do this btw).

KT - the adds had too much life to kill in a reasonable amount of time so you just went for KT and healed through the add damage. Again AoE-ing would be a waste of time.

There are probably more/better examples but generally speaking boss encounters are usually a single boss so that also throws people about the champs I think.


Saying all that, this is TankSpot's least useful video to date. I understand the Coliseum is not of the same magnitude of Naxxramas or Ulduar, but this video should, in my opinion, be redone - it contains very little of use and, unfortunately, is inaccurate in places. It also doesn't highlight the most salient points that we found when we finally got this encounter down.

To me, here are the main points to note (10 man):

1) The six NPC's consist of two melee DPS, two ranged and two healers. No more, no less.
2) The two melee DPS are by far and away the most dangerous of the six and MUST be managed.
3) Your raid MUST understand the importance of saving itself and showing durability, vice reliance on healers and just nuking. An immobile player will be a dead player very quickly.


Not to be a Tankspot groupie, but given the very random nature of the fight I'm not surprised this video is as vague as it is. In fact your assertions aren't even correct, which again isn't a surprise since after 2 raid lock outs with the champs we can't derive any patterns yet (Tankspot did the video with just 1 lock out even).

First week we had this composition:
disc priest, resto shaman, boomkin, warlock + fel hunter, rogue, ret pally

Second week we had this composion:
ret pally, resto druid, spriest, hunter + cat, enhance shaman, dk

So the second week we had 1 healer (not 2) and 3 melee (again, not 2). In my 2 week sample size (shouldn't be drawing conclusions here really), there are no guarantees on composition.

This fight is just rangy but fortunately they give you plenty of time when you start to mark up targets and get a kill order/strat down. A lot of people split targets having tanks 'tank' melee other groups focus fire target by target (we do this). Some people just spam the hell out of CC, while others ignore it completely (we're somewhere in between). It's just going to take practice; I doubt there are any tried and true strats to this other than dispel... a lot.

I spoke to our RL after our second kill and he mentioned as a healer it was an adjustment because there's more raid damage but there's no one-shot someone levels of damage. So he had to get used to focusing more on dispels, offensive CC-ing, ect rather than spamming heals on the tank. I suspect everyone has this kind of adjustment to make (I go arms and play it as if it were a BG rather than tank it).

Zellviren
09-01-2009, 07:32 PM
Not to be a Tankspot groupie, but given the very random nature of the fight I'm not surprised this video is as vague as it is. In fact your assertions aren't even correct, which again isn't a surprise since after 2 raid lock outs with the champs we can't derive any patterns yet (Tankspot did the video with just 1 lock out even).

First off, out of curiosity, which of my assertions "aren't even correct"? Granted, after two lockouts, spotting a personal pattern for an individual guild might be tough, but after speaking to numerous people from numerous other guilds on my server (and, of course, reading the input from people here at TankSpot), it appears my assertions are correct.

Have you experienced more than two healers, or less than two?
Have you found the melee combatants to not be the most dangerous to your raid?
Have you found that kiting and personal survivability aren't all that important?


So the second week we had 1 healer (not 2) and 3 melee (again, not 2). In my 2 week sample size (shouldn't be drawing conclusions here really), there are no guarantees on composition.You are the only person I've seen/heard making this claim. Everyone else has had the composition I posited previously.


This fight is just rangy but fortunately they give you plenty of time when you start to mark up targets and get a kill order/strat down. A lot of people split targets having tanks 'tank' melee other groups focus fire target by target (we do this). Some people just spam the hell out of CC, while others ignore it completely (we're somewhere in between). It's just going to take practice; I doubt there are any tried and true strats to this other than dispel... a lot.Generally speaking, I don't disagree. But while your decisions depend on the group make up you're faced with, as well as your own raid, and the fact your strategy will have to differ to make best use of what you've got, this is exactly how you would approach an arena match.

And, sorry to say, if I want arena I will form a team and PLAY arena. It has absolutely no place in PvE raid content. Personally, I'd rather they increased the difficulty of the other encounters significantly as opposed to providing this lazily designed encounter in lieu of genuine depth to this raid.


I spoke to our RL after our second kill and he mentioned as a healer it was an adjustment because there's more raid damage but there's no one-shot someone levels of damage. So he had to get used to focusing more on dispels, offensive CC-ing, ect rather than spamming heals on the tank. I suspect everyone has this kind of adjustment to make (I go arms and play it as if it were a BG rather than tank it).There you go; you play it as if it were a BG.

How much more "PvP orientated" can you get?

I hear those that are saying "you just have to learn to use things you never thought you had to". And while that sounds great, I say again, that's what PvP content is for. Personally, the reason I enjoy PvE is because I like to look at an encounter in its entirety, figure out the best strategy and commit to it (TankSpot is generally a huge help in this). It changes slightly depending on our OWN group make up, but that's with a certain amount of min-maxing. The meat and bones of a PvE encounter shouldn't change so drastically week to week where you are practically having to learn a new encounter every reset.

Of course, the fans of this type of sloppy design will say "you just want a pre-described encounter to make your job easy".

Erm, no.

Blizzard have already proven with Alone in the Darkness or Firefighter just how difficult they can make an encounter without stupidly randomising it on a weekly basis. Yet, despite not completing these encounters, none of my raiders have the same frustration at failing as they do with the Faction Champions.

Because, regardless of what anyone says, creating a good plan, executing it perfectly well and then seeing it fail because a rogue decided to Shadowstep into the middle of your raid and kill two of them with Fan of Knives, is simply not fun.

Muffin Man
09-01-2009, 11:36 PM
First off, out of curiosity, which of my assertions "aren't even correct"? Granted, after two lockouts, spotting a personal pattern for an individual guild might be tough, but after speaking to numerous people from numerous other guilds on my server (and, of course, reading the input from people here at TankSpot), it appears my assertions are correct.

Have you experienced more than two healers, or less than two?
Have you found the melee combatants to not be the most dangerous to your raid?
Have you found that kiting and personal survivability aren't all that important?

You are the only person I've seen/heard making this claim. Everyone else has had the composition I posited previously.


Well. I mentioned why I said your assertions were false. I got a single healer last week. Just scrolling through this thread there are people who had 2 healers / 1 melee / 3 ranged or 2 healers / 3 melee / 1 ranged. So basically it's not a fixed composition like you're claiming.

I actually *don't* find the melee to be the most dangerous, but I realize that's probably more of a raid to raid judgement which is why I didn't say anything.

The first time we cleared champs we had to kill the boomkin after the healers. His cc-ing was just too much for us. We left rogue and dk for last since we drew a warlock and his AoE was annoying.

Second time we went healer, enh shammy, spriest. After a few wipes we realized the spriest was killing us, so we moved him up to third in the order.

I know this is a polarizing fight. I treat it like a bg fight because I actually do pvp and it turns out that the champs are taunt immune on hardmode so tanks are even less useful than we thought. I also said BG instead of Arena because the faction champs act *nothing* like a well run arena team. They don't assist each other, they don't split your group in half via cc to pound the healers, or shut down heals to kill dps one-by-one, ect.

Anyways, people have already made up their mind on whether this fight has a place in the game or not... but it's there. It's just like Malygos P3 and Flame Leviathan, Blizzard wants to try something different. It's also clear that Blizzard wants the entire raid to think a little bit about actively trying to survive, rather than just letting the tanks and healers deal with it. The worms' with acid and fire debuffs, Icehowl's random charge, Anubarak chasing people, the Twin's Vortex, ect. From that perspective the champions fight is a much more extreme version of that. Just keep people alive and out last them.

Reij
09-01-2009, 11:56 PM
We finally downed 10 man, but with a different comp. We focused on downing the clothies, then leather wearers, then mail, then plate. So we went Priest, Mage, Rogue, Boomkin, Sham, and Pally. Then 2-shot the twin valkyr. We've managed anubarak down to 1k, so hopefully we'll get it this week.

Stuart07
09-03-2009, 08:15 AM
Do rogue dismantles work as it may help when your trying to burst down warrior/paladin

mwally
09-04-2009, 06:44 AM
Good strat for a prot warrior on a healer doing interrupts

We decided to burn the holy priest first then go through the melee and other dps and leave the other 2 healers we had up and just interrupt them, which we had a fury warrior on the resto shammy and i was on the holy pally, while we had 3 other tanks on the DK, warrior and rogue.

I am a prot warrior and was on the holy pally interrupting his heals the entire fight since he was the last we killed, which i had 37 interrupts during the fight and should have had easily over 45(sometimes i would get misdirected buy the hunter and have to find my target again or cc'd by one of their guys). Whenever my shield bash, concussion blow, shockwave would be on cooldown i would run a bit away and then wait for him to start to cast a spell and then either charge or use intercept to interrupt them and daze him for a second or so, letting some of my interrupts come off cooldown and being ready to stop more heals.

The only time the holy pally got off a holy light was when i was in the middle of a frost trap and couldn't get far enough away to charge in and interrupt in time, but when i missed one would then would wait when i was far enough away to charge in on his next cast.

So all in all use your charge and intercepts cause they will stop alot of heals.

fargoa
09-05-2009, 01:08 PM
Out of all combinations, the toughest would be those with 2 healers in the mobs. Although the strategy is about the same as 1 healer, i.e. to cut down the healers as fast as you can, the mechanic of the fight is dramatically different. That is because you need to find a reliable way to CC the 2nd healer while you are fighting the first one and dodging others mobs (or eating up their damages). However, that is not simple at all. As we all may have seen, most CC methods don't last long and PvP-styled diminished returns come into play here too.
One thing that would definitely help is the raw stamina of every team members and their gears, of course, the higher the better. The guide would be much more informative if such minimal requirement on gears/stamina/resist is suggested.
(PS. I haven't seen any 3-healer packs.)

Eraser
09-05-2009, 07:46 PM
Never been in the raiding scene before 80, but the hardest fight for me so far would be Malygos - without a dk. You're constently repositioning making sure the sparks are in the right spot, and your dps is going crazy.

Mim hard mode was pretty good as well.

Holynite
09-08-2009, 05:34 AM
For the past 2 weeks my guild has NOT been able to get past this in 25 man. We are trying to CC the rogue and the disc priest/druid, disarm rotation on the warrior, kill the shaman healer, and stun lock the paladin healer....we get 1 healer dead, and the raid falls apart....

Akeber
09-08-2009, 10:11 AM
I've done this encounter a few times now, and I have yet to see only one healer in the ten man encounter. IMO, in a one healer situation it would be prudent to start burning the most deadly dps mob first and CC/interrupt the healer as much as possible.

If you think 10 man normal is difficult, wait until you try ten man hard mode, Rogue+shadowstep=almost instantly dead player. Our opponents were healing Priest, holy pally, enhancement shaman, rogue, mage, and boomkin. The only way were were able to get them down was to have our boomkin and prot warrior lock down the rogue as much as possible with stuns, roots, cyclones, hamstring etc. while we burned the priest first, shammy second, then the mage followed by the rogue. We waited so long on the rogue because as soon as the CC chain on him stopped so we could DPS him, he'd shadowstep and roflstomp someone. It was easier to wait until he was the only one of two or three left to kill him, that way if he did kill someone, it wasn't as big an issue at that point.

The video for this encounter is vague because the encounter is highly variable on group makeup, both yours and the faction champions. This is the anti-scripted encounter. Until you've seen every possible combination, with your raid comp static, you will be relearning this fight almost every week. Deal with it, adapt on the fly, use your head.

Anub
09-11-2009, 08:40 AM
We did the 25 man last night. After the first couple attempts, we had our dps and healers switch to pvp specs for the added defensive abilities and pvp gear for the added stam.

Purge and dispels are very important for this fight. We killed the melee first, keeping MS or Aimed Shot on them while purging HOTs and interrupting and silencing the priest. After the melee was down, we moved to the healers.

Swam
09-12-2009, 12:23 AM
evil evil evil evil evil evil evil evil evil evil evil hunt down who made this fight and kill them slowly evil evil evil evil
2 nights 400g in repairs for me personally. my guild does not pvp i hate pvp. I am a tank i make things hit me and keep others alive. I can lock down any 1 guy in this encounter but Whatever else is going on leads to us getting raped in the face over and over again.

luv2tank
09-12-2009, 12:32 AM
hate this fight plain and simple. Every week, we get the same combo of shaman, pally, druid healers. My guild has cleared everything but yogg 25, and we cannot down this fight for the life of us. 3.5-6k dps for almost everyone in the raid and we wipe as soon as we down the shaman. screw this fight, i even hate it on 10man and its a joke.

Zortrax
09-14-2009, 02:02 PM
I dont think this is a hard fight, u just need to learn to CC and learn to stay alive.

I use xperl addon and i get a very big AGGRO in my screen if a add target me. If a melle attacks me i die in 2 or 3 his, but its very easy to avoid it.

In this fight I go as frost spec (im a mage), i dont dps just CC one melle for entire fight and this work very well.

Since my guild adopted this strat, we only wiped one time in three weeks.

Boneshield
09-14-2009, 11:33 PM
Me and another prot warrior Ehen made a system of taunts to ease the damage in this fight. We would place our vigilances on eachother and make taunt macros. These macros would go like this:

/target *mob name*
/cast taunt

The taunts become less effective as you keep doing it, so we would set a 3 target rotation. Casters and obviously healers didn't get effected by taunts, but the DK, rogue, and hunters make good targets for this. As one warrior got hit, the other's taunt would be refreshed.

We also found that designating targets to sheep or fear doesn't work well.

Sainten
10-05-2009, 01:03 PM
Hello I know this might be a bit weird question but what addons does Aliena use in this fight I really like them for my shaman healer but I can't figure out which ones they are

Kazeyonoma
10-05-2009, 03:11 PM
Sainten:
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f211/54528-aliena-s-ui.html

All of our author's here should have a UI thread located in the UI Compilation forum.

Sainten
10-05-2009, 10:13 PM
Okay thanks a lot

zelikofcc
10-06-2009, 12:03 AM
my guild has me stay as a prot pally and lock down one of the plate dps with hammer of justice and seal as well as taunt. i can keep them locked out almost the entire fight and never take much dmg. its fairly effective.

drae
10-06-2009, 06:04 AM
I recently respec'd my prot warrior for this encounter because we are working on insanity in our 10m.

I took the talent No-one EVER takes... Safeguard. AND DAMN IS IT OVER POWERED!
I also took piercing howl, imp. spell reflect, imp. disarm, and Tactical Mastery.

One common mechanic I see over and over again in Faction Champions is the "DPS FOCUS". The Faction Champion DPS will simultaneously refocus their aggro on a single player in your raid and try to burst them to death.

To counter this effect, I write a focus intervene macro. Then I focus the rogue or warrior. Make sure your Focus' target is visible on your raid frames. Whenever they switch targets I do my best to intervene, drastically lowering the damage my raid member takes. The rest of the time I kite the warrior / rogue around with piercing howl, spamming spell reflect every chance I get. Oh, I also disarm our current burn target for the 20% extra damage taken.

Last week I intervened 22 times, spell reflected 108 spells, and cast piercing howl over 150 times on heroic 25m.

Further we assign our healers with really good burst HPS (disc. priests, paladins) to heal the target of a specific faction champion using a mouseover macro. Usually the rogue or warrior.

We always burn a healer, then all the dps. We stun lock one healer, and let the 3rd run around (usually the druid is free). We use alternating CC's on a few of the more dangerous DPS.

99.9% of this fight is kiting, if you are being attacked you have to run-away; snare, cc, or whatever else is required to give you a gap, and start kiting.

Healybob
10-06-2009, 04:32 PM
we do this every week.
our holy/discs priest focuses on mass dispeling, alot, this is greatly over looked, massdispel takes the resto druid and spriest out of the fight and greatly nerfs CC from the mage. It also hurts the pallie and lock dps and reduces the effectiveness of the disc priest. It also takes earthliving wpn off from the shamman healer. It also removes the DK's chains of ice. Mass Dispel + cleansing totem takes care of 90% of the debuffs they use.

Schmevan
10-13-2009, 01:27 PM
So are prot warriors the only people you would have stay in their tank spec? My guild's main tank is a paladin that has never geared for any other spec (heck she does the same dps in prot as she does in ret lol), do non warrior tanks need to gear their pvp/dps sets for this fight?

Risky
10-13-2009, 01:48 PM
we do this every week.
our holy/discs priest focuses on mass dispeling, alot, this is greatly over looked, massdispel takes the resto druid and spriest out of the fight and greatly nerfs CC from the mage. It also hurts the pallie and lock dps and reduces the effectiveness of the disc priest. It also takes earthliving wpn off from the shamman healer. It also removes the DK's chains of ice. Mass Dispel + cleansing totem takes care of 90% of the debuffs they use.

Isn't the mass dispel hitting Unstable Affliction? The warlock keeps it at an uptime of 95% according to our recount data.

Risky
10-13-2009, 01:49 PM
So are prot warriors the only people you would have stay in their tank spec? My guild's main tank is a paladin that has never geared for any other spec (heck she does the same dps in prot as she does in ret lol), do non warrior tanks need to gear their pvp/dps sets for this fight?
DK tanks are great for locking down the ret pally, enh shaman or warrior.
Feral tanks are also great, and they can break form to cyclone.

Insahnity
10-13-2009, 02:06 PM
we do this every week.
our holy/discs priest focuses on mass dispeling, alot, this is greatly over looked, massdispel takes the resto druid and spriest out of the fight and greatly nerfs CC from the mage. It also hurts the pallie and lock dps and reduces the effectiveness of the disc priest. It also takes earthliving wpn off from the shamman healer. It also removes the DK's chains of ice. Mass Dispel + cleansing totem takes care of 90% of the debuffs they use.

Dispelling the heroism alone is worth it. But I find the Mass Dispels eventually gets noticed and I get focused on. I try and Fade as well as Psychic Scream but it only goes for so long.

Haruk
10-14-2009, 02:18 PM
Before Attempt:
I'm about to attempt this encounter for the first time tonight. I'm a DK TANK/DPS. I normally tank as Unholy but I was thinking about switching to frost for this encounter. My thought is Hungering Cold, Chilblains and Icy Reach talents coupled with glyph of disease and Glyph of Howling Blast will allow me to get frost fever up on all of the targets and keep it up. The Chilblains talent will slow them down by 50% and I would just use pestilence to refresh it which shouldn't break cc. What I'm wondering is if anything thinks this would be of value and if frost fever (with chilblains talent) is subject to diminishing returns.

After Attempt:
We downed them on our first night on our 3rd try. It was an odd role for me to play. Normally I'm either behind a critter that the tank has picked and dpsing it or I'm the tank and I'm in front of the critter making it mad. In this fight I was just trying to distract and slow down anything that was moving. I stared the pull with Death Grip and moved the Tree into the middle of our group. After I yanked it over I went for the priest and cast strangulate and then howling blast which infected everything with frost fever and slowed their movement by 50%. Once Howling blast was cast I let my team know it was safe to cc. I then just ran around casting pestilence to keep frost fever up and if it was down hit the mob with Icy Touch and infected it again. I also rotated around in a random order and hit anything moving with chains of ice, death gripped anything on a caster and once slowed I'd move to max distance and taunt one of the melee who would then run around and try and catch me.

I think the key was to keep mobile and not stand stand in one spot. My entire group was very mobile and with the mobs all slowed it was hard for them to catch us.

Martie
10-14-2009, 07:02 PM
So are prot warriors the only people you would have stay in their tank spec? My guild's main tank is a paladin that has never geared for any other spec (heck she does the same dps in prot as she does in ret lol), do non warrior tanks need to gear their pvp/dps sets for this fight?
I've been most successfull staying prot on my paladin, though I've healed as well.

Tell the palading to use a combination of taunts, slows and stuns to prevent one of the melees from doing much - he won't attain a 100% lockdown, but 50-70% should be doable, a little less in heroic.
Also, he should call out the name of any clothie being targetted by one of the melees - they hit hard enough that that clothie needs to take action when targetted.

Wingnut
10-19-2009, 03:49 PM
This encounter has had a major nerf. We have gone from wiping several times to get the the faction champs down, to one
shotting it every week, sometimes without even a single death. Thanks blizz, I realize that you don't want something to be impossile, but let's not get stupid. I enjoyed ToC because some of it was actually a bit of a challenge. ToC feels like a joke now.

Chamenas
10-19-2009, 03:54 PM
This encounter has had a major nerf. We have gone from wiping several times to get the the faction champs down, to one
shotting it every week, sometimes without even a single death. Thanks blizz, I realize that you don't want something to be impossile, but let's not get stupid. I enjoyed ToC because some of it was actually a bit of a challenge. ToC feels like a joke now.

Maybe you're just getting better?

But sure, blame Blizzard. They gave a very minor nerf.

Squirrelnut
10-19-2009, 04:14 PM
Switch to heroic?

Fluxx
10-21-2009, 01:52 AM
Last night we did it on normal 25 again, though we had a bit of hard setup. but we no like it to kill the 2 aoe healers / raid healers, i mean by Druid / Priest / Shammy. last night we got a priest and shammy and a pally healer. So we put 1 warrior and 1 pally (me) on interupts on shammy and cc the pally most times. And just burned down the priest, then burn down shammy and then other dps and the interupters (me and warrior) switched to the pally healer to try and interupt most of his heals. this went ok.

But what we ( I ) found out is that having a prot pally or a ret pally using Seal of Justice ( the with the 2 second stun / Seal of Justice - Thottbot: World of Warcraft (http://thottbot.com/s20164#A): ) this gave us so much more interupts that we (me warrior and 2 hunter pets) to burn down the pally to about 60-70% then we changed our tactic and burned down the pally before the remaining dps.

Sogoten
10-29-2009, 02:54 AM
What is the Sap time at this fight?
Is like the other CC's (3sec) or its like PvP rules (10sec)?

Wingnut
11-03-2009, 07:58 AM
Switch to heroic?

lol We started doing heroic that same week. Maybe it WAS a combination of gtting better and the nerf.

Course, now we are stuck on faction champs on heroic. :D They pretty much focus fire and zerg people. It's nuts.


What is the Sap time at this fight?
Is like the other CC's (3sec) or its like PvP rules (10sec)?

PvP rules applies to all CCs. It's 10 seconds for sap

Shadowfire
11-03-2009, 12:57 PM
I was wondering. Has anyone heard of the strategy where if you have a hunter or a lock you have them send their pet(s) after the champions pet(s) if there is an opposing hunter or lock in order to tie up one of the healers? I remembering reading something about it, I just don’t remember where so that I may follow up on that strategy. From what I recall, one of the champion’s healers would devote themselves to keep the pet(s) alive.

Risky
11-03-2009, 01:34 PM
I was wondering. Has anyone heard of the strategy where if you have a hunter or a lock you have them send their pet(s) after the champions pet(s) if there is an opposing hunter or lock in order to tie up one of the healers? I remembering reading something about it, I just don’t remember where so that I may follow up on that strategy. From what I recall, one of the champion’s healers would devote themselves to keep the pet(s) alive.

No, the pet gets an occasional heal, which is usually interrupted by the interrupters anyway, so it's a loss of dps. Also, you may just get a HoT on the pet, which negates the entirity of that dps or the need for FC heals to focus it.

It really does next to nothing.

Shadowfire
11-03-2009, 02:45 PM
Ok, thanks. Thought that may be the case.

Risky
11-03-2009, 03:05 PM
It's actually better to have a dot class dot pets, if you really want to be efficient. The benefit of dot classes over a hunter on the pet assignment is that you not only draw occasional heals and hots, you also draw dispels. And since dispels are not interruptable as they are instant, you may draw dispels that were intended for your CC targets instead, as well as buy time.

maddfez
11-04-2009, 08:48 AM
I highly recommend dotting / putting pets on the pets. The healers seem to heal the target with the lowest total HP that is missing some hp, which is almost always a pet. Here's the healing done by target breakdown for our kill last night:

Thrakgar - healing done by actor:
Thrakgar 56588 100.0 %

Erin Misthoof - healing done by actor:
Cat 295600 80.2 %
Treant 54148 14.7 %
Zhaagrym 12690 3.4 %
Thrakgar 6268 1.7 %

Liandra Suncaller - healing done by actor:
Zhaagrym 1428330 42.4 %
Cat 845364 25.1 %
Erin Misthoof 205482 6.1 %
Thrakgar 183517 5.5 %
Ruj'kah 130080 3.9 %
Narrhok Steelbreaker 126079 3.7 %
Gorgrim Shadowcleave 120589 3.6 %
Harkzog 114203 3.4 %
Liandra Suncaller 112518 3.3 %
Treant 56247 1.7 %
Maz'dinah 42562 1.3 %

Kill order was Resto Shaman (Thrakgar) --> DK --> Resto Druid (Misthoof) --> melee --> ranged --> Holy Paladin (Suncaller)

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-10wo6k6zcyf75xfs/details/109/?s=5279&e=5752)

We had an aff lock dotting both pets, a shaman flame shocking a pet, and a couple pets on their pets.

Fluxx
11-04-2009, 10:43 AM
I highly recommend dotting / putting pets on the pets. The healers seem to heal the target with the lowest total HP that is missing some hp, which is almost always a pet. Here's the healing done by target breakdown for our kill last night:

Thrakgar - healing done by actor:
Thrakgar 56588 100.0 %

Erin Misthoof - healing done by actor:
Cat 295600 80.2 %
Treant 54148 14.7 %
Zhaagrym 12690 3.4 %
Thrakgar 6268 1.7 %

Liandra Suncaller - healing done by actor:
Zhaagrym 1428330 42.4 %
Cat 845364 25.1 %
Erin Misthoof 205482 6.1 %
Thrakgar 183517 5.5 %
Ruj'kah 130080 3.9 %
Narrhok Steelbreaker 126079 3.7 %
Gorgrim Shadowcleave 120589 3.6 %
Harkzog 114203 3.4 %
Liandra Suncaller 112518 3.3 %
Treant 56247 1.7 %
Maz'dinah 42562 1.3 %

Kill order was Resto Shaman (Thrakgar) --> DK --> Resto Druid (Misthoof) --> melee --> ranged --> Holy Paladin (Suncaller)

World of Logs - Real Time Raid Analysis (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-10wo6k6zcyf75xfs/details/109/?s=5279&e=5752)

We had an aff lock dotting both pets, a shaman flame shocking a pet, and a couple pets on their pets.

ty, this will come in handy for the next run tommorow :)

horka
11-08-2009, 02:12 AM
Hey nice video..i was looking at your UI..what is some of your Addons?