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Thunderhand
08-17-2009, 07:31 PM
Well, with the increase in DPS in the guild, the Tanks have been ordered to post on Tankspot to see what we can do to improve our Threat.

The "Order" asside, it's not a bad idea in order to improve in our jobs. So, here goes:

First, I know I need to improve. Knowing and knowing how are two different things.

The biggest thing I hear from everyone is Expertiese. As you might see in the Armory link, I kind of have very little (not to mention the blue trinket). If there is more you can see, please post.

Here is a fight I was Main Tank on with Ignis: Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/ukaierhcg1rri?s=135225-191271&a=x280000000d8bba7)

And here is the Armory Link: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Aggramar&n=Thunderhand)

I appreciate any and all help. Thanks in advance.

TH

Edit: Already changed to the 15/5/51 spec as suggested by a guild mate.

Risky
08-17-2009, 08:16 PM
Hey man,

So I looked at your gear- it's pretty good. I think you're a little heavy stam ignoring some nice socket bonuses, and I'd consider getting your expertise up to at least 26+ for a great threat increase. You should drop block rating ideally, block value or stamina if not able to.
As for your WWS, it seems like your mostly heroic striking as your priority. I would not recommend this. With that much block, your shield slam should always be on CD. If you're MT, use these macros for beginners.
1)
/cast Shield Block
/cast Shield Slam
/startattack

2)
/cast Revenge
/cast Heroic Strike
/startattack

3)
/cast Devastate
/cast Heroic Strike
/startattack

Using these and a SS=>Rev=>Dev, you'll notice your other abilities take a jump on the damage meter. You can throw in Concussive and Shockwave when everything is down, but this is your best bet for easy single target threat.

If you're still having threat issues, go to a good old 15/3/53 deep wounds spec. A bit more damage from not having imp demo shout = way more threat and slightly more rage.

Good luck out there!

Petninja
08-17-2009, 08:34 PM
The first thing I would like to point out is your usage of Puncture. Consider the number of times you actually used Devastate and how much those three talent points actually saved you. If I'm reading your WWS correctly you landed Devastate 12 times (for a total of 36 rage over almost 7 minutes of combat). You landed Heroic Strike 155 times (which with 3 points in improved heroic strike would be 465 rage). Obviously there are some misses in there so the actual number of attacks is a little higher but I think the point is clear.

Next I notice you have 30% block chance on your gear, which is great for trash but isn't doing you too many favors on hard hitting bosses. That's not really the biggest issue though.

From what I see the two easiest things you can do to boost threat is to pick up a DW spec which IIRC can add as much as 15% to your damage and thus to your threat (It doesn't often seem to drop below a 10% gain), and the other being to pick up more expertise. I think 28 is the soft cap for dodge removal, and you'll want at least that. It's twice as valuable as Hit Rating up until the dodge soft cap is reached and after that it's on par. You'll get 2% more hits for every 4 expertise which should work out to 2% more threat. I know the pyro rockets are fun, and I salute you for having them, but 15 Expertise is going to do more for you than the rockets for straight tanking threat gen.

Personally I think your blue trinket is fine. The Black Heart is an upgrade from ToC regular, but not by much.

ALSO, tell your rogue to use tricks more :P. You only got the buff once.

Thunderhand
08-17-2009, 08:45 PM
I know the pyro rockets are fun, and I salute you for having them, but 15 Expertise is going to do more for you than the rockets for straight tanking threat gen.

Yea, I knew it would be brought up. I put them on for the distance pulling since at the time I was over defense cap. Putting Expertiese there is probably a much beter choice.

Thunderhand
08-17-2009, 08:46 PM
f you're still having threat issues, go to a good old 15/3/53 deep wounds spec. A bit more damage from not having imp demo shout = way more threat and slightly more rage.

Switched to the 15/5/51 spec based on one of our other tanks I had a talk to. Going to be trying it out this week to see how it sits with me. Thanks.

Rhyseh
08-17-2009, 08:50 PM
Ok just a few things that I would advise.

As has been mentioned go for a deep wounds spec, deep wounds will give you more threat than cruelty. Depending on your role I would advise going for either a 15/5/51 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LAM00fZhbZMItrx0zidIzsGo:AcdomM) spec or a 15/3/53 (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#LAM00fZhZMItrx0didIzsGo:TcAomM) spec, these two specs will still give you maximum mitigation however one specs into improved disciplines, which is very handy for bosses like Vezax and other Hard Modes.

Note: Also take note of the Glyph's selected for each spec

Also the expertise soft cap is 26, I highly reccomend reaching this or reach 21 and use Rhinolicious Wormsteak - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=42994) to make up the last 5.

Horacio
08-18-2009, 07:07 AM
Having healed you for about 7 months in BC, I may have a little extra insight....or I could be still be full of crap. Who knows?

Gear looks great but like others have said, expertise on the gloves would be a threat boost you could use to great effect. 26 is your target number, where your attacks cannot be dodged and parry is reduced pretty well. A little more +hit would also be effective to eliminate the misses shown in the WWS. The crafted belt or badge belt is on the same ilvl as the one you have and both have a fair chunk of +hit that would probably help.

Aside from that, my best advice is to be aggressive and control the mob. the faster you get up in their face and start laying the wood to them, the more threat lead you get. If you have rogues, get a Tricks of the Trade and throw your shield thingy (crap! what's it called?!) on a high threat player like a fire mage or a fury warrior.

And hammer HS as much as possible while hitting everything that pops up on CD as soon as it does. A useful addon is OmniCC because it puts little timers on your action bar icons. But mostly that is a rhythm (ack, spelling). Keep the mob in front of you and get as many attacks in as you can. On the fight you linked with WWS (Ignis), its key to stay square with him and plan your moves in advance to get out of the scorch. If you turn your back and run to the next location, you're losing time building threat while casters in particular are still launching.

Also, you can try eating + Expertise food. Or + hit food, depending on how your gear shakes out with any changes you make.

Spec looks fine but you may benefit from Deep Wounds if threat is really an issue. I run a different spec without it but threat has always been the one thing I'm decent at and besides, I mainly OT.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Lothar&n=Horacio)

The first step to correcting issues is to identify them and seek advice. I have no doubt you will get there. There are some situations like Hodir when DPSers get the Storm cloud buff where your skills are maxed, even your taunt button mashing if you have an elemental shaman nuking with 20K lava bursts.

I have faith in you, you'll be fine with a little tweaking here and there.

hilljack
08-18-2009, 11:13 AM
Heya, TH!

As far as I can tell, Here is the argument for expertise over hit:

When you begin any sort of attack, there are basically 3 things that can go wrong: Miss; Dodge; and Parry. While hit rating will help with miss, expertise will help with both dodge and parry. Better to help 2/3 problems than 1/3. Furthermore, when you get parried, many bosses gain parry haste (essentially a free attack) which makes you harder to heal. Since this doesn't happen on a straight miss, it's better to reduce the mob's/boss's chance at a free attack. Better still, once you reach 26 expertise, the boss will be unable to dodge you at all so you have completely removed 1/3 things that could go wrong.

Also, with the HS issue, this might help:

I essentially think of our ability set as gears in a transmission with the basic auto-attack "melee swing" being the idle speed. Your goal is to be in gear as much as possible. Your best "gears" are SS>revenge>CB/SW>HS. Think of HS as a double-clutch transmission--activate it in between each of your other abilities. In other words, doing the standard threat rotation, you will be hitting: SS>HS>rev>HS>CB>HS>SS>HS, and so on. Not all of the HSs will actually go off--if something better comes off of cooldown right after you have hit HS, when you hit it, it will supervene upon the HS you have already hit and take its place. The reason for "activating" HS in between each of your other attacks is that it will take the place of a vanilla "melee swing" in cases where all the good stuff is on CD. You're still going to have auto-attack swings getting through, obviously, but by substituting a good threat-generating "gear" for idle speed as much you can, you will see an increase in threat.

Edit: ^^I left Dev. out of the rotation accidentally--You get my point, though. hehe

Thunderhand
08-18-2009, 01:08 PM
Yea, I have been reading thru both yours and my threads and trying to garner the best info from both. Thanks for the cross-post.

Thunderhand
08-18-2009, 09:35 PM
Wanted to thank all those who took the time to reply. I am working on the Expertiese side of the house now.

Will come back in a while once I make a few changes.

Again, thank you.

TH

Thunderhand
08-19-2009, 10:41 PM
After our run thru Uldar tonite I noticed a good increase in threat just from the spec change down into DW. Thanks for the suggestion. Next step ... 1) increase expertiese 2) move from macros to regular rotation tanking.

Rhyseh
08-19-2009, 10:59 PM
2) move from macros to regular rotation tanking.

This alone will increase your control over your class. I have never been a fan of relying heavily on macro's. I use them for targeting or for stance dance type scenario's (mainly limited to PVP these days, however I do use one as DPS on fights like XT to pop shield wall during stressful patches). Either way your tanking should be all you!

Thunderhand
08-20-2009, 01:46 PM
Rhyseh;
I have been told that for years. Finally 2 patches back I began to notice issues in timing that caused many things to not get activated in a timely manner. I tweaked and changed them multiple times ... Thought I fixed them more than once ... still can not stop the issues. The other day I removed using macros on my dps spec and started increasing my dps. Finally put 2 and 2 together and realized I beter do this on my tanking as well.

Thunderhand
08-24-2009, 11:00 AM
Well, first tanking duty after leaving the macros and going to mapped keys only and I .... You guessed it .... Fell flat on my face!!!

Missed the right keys.... Lost aggro .... Wiped the raid. Good thing the tank lead is a decent enough guy ( for a paladin :). He just said try again.

Second times a charm though. Took my time, did not loose anything, and down goes the boss.

It will take time but it seems to me that aggro is up.