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View Full Version : Tanks.. answer me this.



Prototype
08-16-2009, 01:20 PM
I have always been a Fan of Avoidance.. I always stack the parry/Stam or Dodge/Stam gems. I am Hit cap, Expert Cap, Def Cap.. etc..

So here is the question;

why is it i seem like the only tank that likes avoidance (among my servers tanks that is).. I see DK's/warriors/Pallies/Druids stacking Just Stam. (30 stam epicS) and i mean ALL gems



do i not need all the avoidance that i stack up?

31411 ub, and 58% avoid ub...24.5karmor while others are stacking stam...i stack avoid/stam.... should i Stamstack?

Krumgork
08-16-2009, 01:44 PM
There's different reasons for all of these.

As far as my understanding, stamina is better because it's there all the time. You might avoid a hit xx% of the time, but stamina will always be there. You can only avoid physical hits, but stamina is always there.

People mainly stack stamina when they're doing progression kills for their guilds & maybe hard modes (which are probably progression anyway). It makes life a lot easier on the healers because the extra health gives them room for error.

As far as your stats, it doesn't look much different from others I've seen. 31k health sounds fine to me, depending on where you are. And if you're focusing on a melee boss, maybe the avoidance will work out for you.

In the end, it's best to have all sets covered for the boss you're fighting. Stamina, threat, avoidance, resistance, etc. Just like you would switch specs for a particular boss, so should you with your gear.

Hengist
08-16-2009, 01:47 PM
Avoidance provided by your talents and item bonuses alone is very high in wotlk. Most people consider that amount being good enough to have a good chance of providing your healers with some breathing space between chaining heals and don't see the point of stacking it any higher, especially that for magic damage stamina is the only stat you can stack to increase your chance of survival.

Daereg
08-16-2009, 01:58 PM
Well avoidance is nice but, it doesn't seem worth gemming for considering the amount you get per gem. Where Stamina would get you a lot more per gem.
Talents and gear itself gives enough avoidance I find.

phaze
08-16-2009, 02:23 PM
do i not need all the avoidance that i stack up?

Not really. Avoidance is great for efficiency, but Stamina stacking is better for boosting survival.

Krumgork
08-16-2009, 02:30 PM
Yeah, I didn't think about that, Phaze.

Somewhere, on some math planet far, far away, someone crunched ridiculously difficult numbers to decide that every tanking stat was worth a certain amount.

In the end, I think stamina won out as the highest value tanking stat. Since then, tanks have been stacking stamina like mad men. I'm sure if you look hard enough (WoWHead?) you can find the breakdown of how the stats rank in order of importance.

Or I could just post it here:

Stat Importance According to WoWHead for Prot Warrior (with point value per point):

Stamina - 100
Defense - 66
Dodge - 59
Expertise - 58
Agility - 53
Parry - 50
Block - 22
Strength - 17
Hit - 7
Armor - 7
Crit - 5
ArPen - 5
Attack - 3
Haste - 3

Prototype
08-16-2009, 02:52 PM
interesting... Hit is not important.. interesting... Good chart tho thx

Athenodorus
08-16-2009, 03:03 PM
A couple things to keep in mind:

(1) The true value of each stat will vary depending on how much of each you have. We talk about the "defense cap" every day: the simple fact that defense is worth (much) more until you hit 540 skill. Similar things happen for Expertise, Hit Rating, etc. Diminishing returns on Dodge and Parry rating add another layer of complexity.

(2) That list seems geared for Time To Live, rather than Average Healing Needed or Threat. Tanks are mostly concerned with TTL, especially in new raids, but it is important to remember the other two exist. What you need depends on the target and your raid makeup.

Ricovega
08-16-2009, 03:47 PM
avoidance is massively important. although stamina is a vital stat that we should look to increase, especially for improving survival against spell damage, avoidance should never be comprimised at the cost of stamina, which alot of tanks do. non-tanks also see a higher stamina figure as being better when in reality the tank could be a glass/paper tank

when it comes to gemming, its important to work on increasing threat production

hit is important. obtain a hit rating of at least 145 and expertise rating of 26 for a streamlined threat production and efficiency using the optimum rotation

Tharr
08-16-2009, 04:02 PM
Avoidance is awesome, but you need stamina to survive. Untill you have enough hp to feel comfortable with whatever the boss does to you then you need more. But when you have enough then you can start looking for other stats, avoidance/hit/exp. That's how I see it atm anyway.

Odwome
08-16-2009, 04:09 PM
Up until this patch I was a super stam whore. I used to have about 35-36k unbuffed before 3.2 hit, since I would usually just stack stamina as much as I could, but I realized that I was gimping myself pretty hard.

With the amount of stam I had, any additional stamina barely helped me out in terms of actual survival, since I could definitely take 2 hits from the harder-hitting bosses in uld, but no way would I survive 3 in a row without heals. At that point, I figured that adding more avoidance would be beneficial, since it would allow me to reduce the chance of taking 3 hits in a row, which was typically the only thing that would kill me (aside from obvious encounter-related mistakes).

If your total avoidance is 55% (disregarding block for this example, trying to keep it simple), then you have a 45% chance to be hit once in a row, a 20.25% chance to be hit twice in a row, and 9.11% chance to be hit 3 times in a row. Increase that avoidance to 60%, and the numbers drop to 40%, 16%, and 6.4%, respectively.

Assuming you're in a situation where you will always survive 2 hits in a row, and never 3 hits in a row (let's say your healers are lagging really hard >_>), then given those numbers, you would decrease your chance to die at any given moment from 9.11% to 6.4%, which is just about a 30% decrease.

Let's carry this example further. Imagine you could increase your total avoidance to 65% after buffs. That would give you a 35% chance to be hit once, a 12.25% chance to be hit twice, and a 4.29% chance to be hit 3 times in a row. From the original value of 55% avoidance, this would be a decrease in your chance to die from any given string of attacks of approximately 53%.

I got this interpretation of avoidance from Satorri's post in the theorycrafting forum which compares the different tanks. It made me realize that, when you base your evaluation of avoidance in this manner, you will see that increasing your avoidance DRASTICALLY increases your survival, much beyond the simple amount of damage from the attacks that you otherwise would not have avoided. Instead, it shows that avoidance's ability to reduce and spread out bursts of damage is its most important factor, not the averaged reduction of total damage taken.

Prototype
08-16-2009, 04:44 PM
I am at 56.02 ub with 32131hp

i was 58 minor.. we'll see how it works out

Jameak
08-16-2009, 05:01 PM
With the higher end gear available, you are able to re-gem for stamina without your avoidance suffering. What makes me cry is people picking up the high stamina gear with little useful stats/sockets over gear with avoidance. 34k hp might look great but 18% dodge, 15% parry and 14% block brings tears to my eyes.

uglybbtoo
08-16-2009, 09:24 PM
Your avoidance will eventually fail dodge/dodge/dodge whack

It's nice to have but when it fails ignore other stats at your peril and the buck always stops at your HP.

You also run the risk of becoming very spikey with too much avoidance you lul the healers into sleep and then all the sudden you get belted. The easiest tank for a healer is nice consistant damage not the one who takes the least damage but the damage all comes in bug chunks.

Around 45-50% avoidance is sort of normal but some will go higher or lower depending what they are doing in terms of raid content.

There is no right and wrong here ... if it's working for you fine but yes the ones loading stam aren't wrong either.

Dhalphir
08-16-2009, 09:40 PM
Avoidance is what comes on gear. Your gems should be tailored towards threat for farm content, and stamina for progression.

Viggo Vickers
08-16-2009, 09:52 PM
I myself used to favor Avoidance, I had my Def up at 570 something, with large amounts of Dodge and Parry. But the Stamina stacking way of Tanks currently swayed me to stacking Stamina, and I'll be honest, I've never looked back, I'm glad I did it.

My guild has progressed a lot further into Ulduar in the last few months and we certainly would have had a harder time on Mimiron and Hodir if it wasn't for the huge amounts of health you can get with Stamina stacked and raid buffs, in fights where Avoidance has no place.

At T8 level, you can safely stack Stamina and still have a healthy chunk of avoidance from stats on your gear.

Feralizer
08-16-2009, 11:26 PM
I have been openly made fun of in raids (pugs mind you, not guild raids) for wearing the polar set gemmed out the butt for Stamina. To the un-informed it may look like I'm a stam stacking nub, but I will say this: Even in my stam stack "soak" set, I am almost exactly 40% dodge rating, which goes with the theory that the stacking of gems for stamina does not necessarily detract from your avoidance if your other gear is high ILevel.

Basically, stack stam until it hurts. Then back off a little.

Sirloinsteak
08-17-2009, 12:48 AM
i think we are compltely rulling out the fact that u should probly have a diff tanking set for every boss ... there is no one set that will be awesome for all bosses u need to customise ur gear for every encounter ... thats why they have mods like itemrack and such ... am i the only tank who will take 2-3 of the same T8.5 pieces and gem and enchant them differantly ???? i thought this was just standard rules for tanking ?? i dont think i have worn the same set for multipul bosses ever every boss has diff abilitys and diff mechanics .. why would u wear the same gear for all that ... it makes no sence at all

Tankz
08-17-2009, 01:27 AM
Larger hit point pools means more of a "pool" for healers to heal in to. Stam is indeed the best way to go for progression as a warrior, DK or Druid.. not so much for a pally, iirc its BV.

Ghladum
08-17-2009, 03:10 AM
Two juxtaposing things I'll submit for consideration:

1.) The removal of Crushing Blows makes EH much less important. Gone are the times when a drastic spike could sneak its way into your face. Gone are the times of clicking open the combat log after a nasty wipe and feeling the blood drain from your face as you saw the dreaded "(Crushing)" there for all to see in WWS parses. There are almost ZERO times in current content when healers cannot deal effectively and efficiently with unlucky strings of taking direct hits assuming the tank has suitable gear. (The exception here I believe is hardmode Vezax, which specifically punishes EH tanks).

2.) EH is still very much the sexy standard by which most tanks view themselves. I even belong to the EH school. I gem Stam absolutely as much as I possibly can. HP pool is our most visible indication of gear level. Even among guildies, it is only a very urbane and knowledgeable RL that will not discriminate between two tanks if one of them has 33k and the other has 36k HP.

So I'm a hypocrite - I believe Avoidance is the smarter decision in 90+% of situations that raiding tanks face, yet I will not gem and gear for avoidance.

orcstar
08-17-2009, 03:24 AM
And again armor isn't here.
We've got rings cloaks and necks with extra armor often making them a stronger choice in 80% of tanking situations then their non-amor (bit higher stamina) equivalents. Especially for shield tanks: armor makes your blocking stronger.

Also: looking at current gear stats: it's often not a stamina vs avoidance but an avoidance vs threat/damage debate. The stamina is most often the same.

bashef
08-17-2009, 03:46 AM
Larger hit point pools means more of a "pool" for healers to heal in to. Stam is indeed the best way to go for progression as a warrior, DK or Druid.. not so much for a pally, iirc its BV.Paladins gear identically to warriors for progression, and until 3.2.2 actually gain small amounts of threat from additional stamina due to their Touched by the Light talent (3.2.2 is removing this mechanic for PvP reasons). In fact, stamina stacking works better for a paladin because they have much better stamina scaling than a warrior. Block value is a pretty crappy stat that you take on a piece of gear if it's an upgrade in every other sense... if it has block rating on it too, it would have to be a huge upgrade for me to even consider it.

Without wanting to create another thread discussing the tradeoffs between effective health and avoidance (note it's effective health that's important, not HP, where EH is a combination of HP with any damage reductions, armour for physical damage, stance modifiers etc) it's fair to say that at any gear level, assuming you prioritise the pieces of gear that maximise survival for a general progression set (avoidance > block stats, it's rarely the case that items at a given ilevel have vastly different stamina and there is literally only a handful that have extra armour) whatever choice you make is unlikely to have huge consequences. My personal preference is to choose avoidance heavy pieces and use stamina gems in blue/prismatic slots and hybrid avoidance/stam gems in others to make the socket bonus. Doing so probably loses me ~1k health relative to shoving a +30 stam gem in every socket, and my avoidance gear sees me lose about 4k raidbuffed health relative to my standard setup with two stam trinkets equipped.

In fact, trinkets are probably the area where you'll see the most variation depending on what you equip, and so are perfect for switching around depending on the encounter. If you need threat, use a hit/expertise/strength trinket. If you're doing Vezax, and to an extent any other boss with either extremely slow or extremely fast swing speeds, you'll probably see more benefit from avoidance. To a certain extent this also applies for other gear pieces as well - learn the fights and switch around depending on what you're doing.

One final comment:


The removal of Crushing Blows makes EH much less importantI'd actually argue that with avoidance being so high at the moment, and with current boss design being what it is, a lot of normal melee feels like a crushing blow, and certainly the special attacks do - there was even a blue post explaining the nerfs to avoidance on these grounds, that the developers were uncomfortable having to design encounters where the boss regularly hit for 60-70% of a tank's health. Whether they were talking about an avoidance tank's health or an effective health tank's health is another matter :)

Zivh
08-17-2009, 04:10 AM
Up until this patch I was a super stam whore. I used to have about 35-36k unbuffed before 3.2 hit, since I would usually just stack stamina as much as I could, but I realized that I was gimping myself pretty hard.

With the amount of stam I had, any additional stamina barely helped me out in terms of actual survival, since I could definitely take 2 hits from the harder-hitting bosses in uld, but no way would I survive 3 in a row without heals. At that point, I figured that adding more avoidance would be beneficial, since it would allow me to reduce the chance of taking 3 hits in a row, which was typically the only thing that would kill me (aside from obvious encounter-related mistakes).

If your total avoidance is 55% (disregarding block for this example, trying to keep it simple), then you have a 45% chance to be hit once in a row, a 20.25% chance to be hit twice in a row, and 9.11% chance to be hit 3 times in a row. Increase that avoidance to 60%, and the numbers drop to 40%, 16%, and 6.4%, respectively.

Assuming you're in a situation where you will always survive 2 hits in a row, and never 3 hits in a row (let's say your healers are lagging really hard >_>), then given those numbers, you would decrease your chance to die at any given moment from 9.11% to 6.4%, which is just about a 30% decrease.

Let's carry this example further. Imagine you could increase your total avoidance to 65% after buffs. That would give you a 35% chance to be hit once, a 12.25% chance to be hit twice, and a 4.29% chance to be hit 3 times in a row. From the original value of 55% avoidance, this would be a decrease in your chance to die from any given string of attacks of approximately 53%.

I got this interpretation of avoidance from Satorri's post in the theorycrafting forum which compares the different tanks. It made me realize that, when you base your evaluation of avoidance in this manner, you will see that increasing your avoidance DRASTICALLY increases your survival, much beyond the simple amount of damage from the attacks that you otherwise would not have avoided. Instead, it shows that avoidance's ability to reduce and spread out bursts of damage is its most important factor, not the averaged reduction of total damage taken.

Thank you for this insightful post detailing the importance of balance between avoidance and stamina. So often I see tanks wearing nothing but straight stam gems, wasting their socket bonuses of dodge, parry, and otherwise, and watching them get their faces smashed in by strings of what they blame on "bad RNG luck". The growth of effectiveness of avoidance is clearly exponential, and can definitely be noticed more and more as both health pool and overall total avoidance increases.

The key here is balance. If you can't survive 2 hits in a row without heals, you need more hp, because that happens quite often, and is nearly unavoidable in most circumstances (like it will probably happen in every boss fight at least once); whereas if you are easily surviving 2 hits, and almost a third, you are better off reducing that chance to receive the third hit as it will be more effective in the long run and probably easier to do than getting enough stam to soak that third hit.

The other thing that comes to mind here for me is expertise rating and the parry-haste mechanic. If you can lower that chance to be parry-haste-pwnt by pumping your expertise rating up to the parry hard cap of 56, you can probably throw that into the balance of avoidance/hp, giving a third dynamic to consider. While expertise is not truly an avoidance stat it could certainly be considered a hybrid stat of both threat and avoidance when it comes to tanking. Someone would have to crunch the numbers and really peruse parses persistently to show the true effect but I bet the combination of threat+avoidance (albeit less avoidance than pure dodge/parry) that expertise gives really makes it a worthwhile stat to stack up to that hard cap.

Gnurken
08-17-2009, 04:14 AM
When doing Ulduar hardmodes I can't see anything else than stacking stamina. Bosses like Thorim that hits harder and harder as fight progress, eventually oneshotting me thru 48k buffed unless I use a cooldown. Having 48k instead of 42k allows me to take the fight longer without using cooldowns and allows the raid more time to dps down the boss.

As others posted we have alternate sets or parts thereof that we swap in
for specific fights, still use 4-set tier8.5 for the bonus at some, more expertise/hit for others.

My current set is the "all purpose" one if you check armory. 25% dodge 18% parry 23% block with 38500 unbuffed and almost capped hit and enough expertise to feel comfortable.

I don't like gemming for avoidance, feels like it's not worth it, I however don't mind using gear part with lots of avoidance on from start. Want to keep a balance between health/avoid and threat.

Bouncelot
08-17-2009, 04:41 AM
I agree with Odwome. Its more of a balance, and there is a practical break point.

For me that's just over 40K health for the current content. Enough to survive 2 hits, and a little more to by healers time. (43-45K buffed)
This should stop bad rng streaks and prevent instagibs.

But if you gem for stam only, your nothing but a gimped bear...

Zivh
08-17-2009, 04:49 AM
But if you gem for stam only, your nothing but a gimped bear...

Agreed. Really gimped. Our bear has over 69k hp when he pops his CD and well over 60% dodge all the time. Diiiirtttyyyyyyyy!!!

Worldie
08-17-2009, 05:42 AM
Maybe i got spoiled by Brutallus back then, but i'm just waiting for another destructive boss to go back spamming full avoidance on the gear.

For now i like balance and will always gem half and half. Being a mana sponge isn't useful.

Khue
08-17-2009, 05:56 AM
I have always been an advocate of bringing cloths for all occasions. I think the first time I realized that you needed to have an avoidance set as well as a stam set was fighting Prince in Karazhan. While having an hp suit for progression is often preferred you have to look at the mechanics of the boss that you are fighting and make a decision based on said mechanics. Prince for example had an extremely high swing rate. IMO there was a significant disadvantage in simply having a boatload of stam. You take constant quick shots from Prince and what it boils down to, is that your heal core can stay ahead of the damage output Prince is laying down. If heals in do not exceed or equal damage out by Prince your raid will fail. Simply piling on more hp doesn't always promise a positive result in this instance. Avoidance however, the ability to completely not take damage, is extremely useful especially considering you take a debuff that increases damage done to you as a tank. That debuff does NOTHING if you aren't even taking damage.

On the opposite side of the coin, bosses that hit like trucks with a slightly slower swing rate, require a stam advantage. It becomes more imparitive for you to be able to survive back to back hits, then it is for you to simply not get hit. The thinking behind this, imo, is that RNG is exactly what it says it is. Random. Even though your avoidance is 60%, there is a 40% chance for you to take a hit on one swing and again a second time (the statistics are actually completely wrong in this comment but I'd like to leave this post brief). The amount of uncertainty built into taking 2 back to back shots is high enough to make a stam set preferable.

I also have some thoughts and opinions about how and avoidance set might be better if you have a weak heal core but I think that's a conversation for another thread.

Pesko
08-17-2009, 06:06 AM
i bounce alot between Solid and Regal gems, Solid if the socket bonus is like 6 stam or 6 def..

Most of the gear now got alot avoidance allready, and as everyone else said.. Stam is there all the time.

A healer mate of mine asked me why i stacked stam and not avoidance, i said to take more and higher hits, he asked me right after why take more hits and not avoide them.

Guess its all up to theory crafting, and parse logs to find the final answer.

Padinbann
08-17-2009, 06:30 AM
I've found that talents and alot of the new gear have bumped my dodge and parry up alot so that i can stack stam i have roughly 26% dodge and 18.5% parry unbuffed and sitting at 35k HP unbuffed rocking 2 stam trinkets and all 30 stam gems but the ones i need for my Meta bonus, As i see aslong as you got 25-26% dodge and 17% parry unbuffed stam stack cause some of the bosses do hit like mach trucks and haveing around 45k fully buffed does feel great when fightng progression fights

gacktt
08-17-2009, 06:39 AM
Bosses in crusade currently ignore our avoidance (23k headbutt + stun/impale 150% weapon damage + bleed etc).

When the heroic version comes and even if they only get a +25% damage buff, they can easily do 50k spikes.

Prototype
08-17-2009, 07:40 AM
Too all of you that have taken the time to type out these points. I and we much appreciated it.. Thank you.


I will stick to my guns.. But change alittle. Every Blue Socket and Pris socket is 30stam. But all my Red sockets are staying 10parry/15stam. My yellow (what tank likes these? are gunna stay my not needed.. but usefull 8Expert./8def for now.

I am up to 32.1k with 56.10% avoid. this works for now. Since i have taken 2 months off i need to catch up.....

also i would like to say.. Threat isnt an issue.. as I am a warrior tank. and mastered my rotation long ago. DEV..SB/HS dev Rev/HS, dev, dev. proc.. proc.. use on proc =) etc. with my spec... i can hover around 6-8k the whole fight. (SB and Dev being buffed a bit is nice)



But again.. Thank you all vm for your time here.. it has helped alot

cheers

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=180&pictureid=463

kavidius
08-17-2009, 08:17 AM
When you rock 37k unbuffed as an Undead warrior, you just feel awesome. (can get higher but I like to stay defense capped)

Odwome
08-17-2009, 08:22 AM
I like Zivh's point regarding the practical breaking point where avoidance becomes preferable to effective health.

1) If a boss's hit does >50% of your health, you're better off gearing for EH.
2) If a boss's hit does <50% of your health, you're better off gearing for avoidance.

For (1), the reasoning is that two hits back to back will kill you. Imagine you get two unavoided hits, where the second one was parry-hasted and occurred 0.4 seconds after the first. In this case, you would almost certainly die. Relying on avoidance to reduce the chance of 2-hit strings would require too much of your gear to be focused on avoidance, so the only option is to increase your EH such that you can no longer be killed in two hits.

For (2), the reasoning is that you would only be able to be killed by strings of three or more unavoided hits in a row, during a lull in healing. Increasing your EH further does have beneficial aspects, in that a healer can lag behind a bit longer and still top you off in time. However, in the case that your healers are distracted a bit too long (blame the deeps), you will still die in only 3 hits, as you probably wouldn't be able to stack enough EH to make it past the breaking point into the realm of 4-hit chains. Because of this, it's a better idea (IMO) to reduce the chance you will get hit 3 times in a row, by focusing on avoidance in your gear.

If anybody who is well-versed in theorycrafting and endgame raiding has any comments about the validity of what I have written in this post, I would be very interested to read them.

Steedy
08-17-2009, 10:09 AM
Health is a safe bet really, and also it helps people get into groups for things in my opinion, whenever i have looked to join a group the leader has always asked 'Hp?' rather than asking about avoidance.

Hypatia
08-17-2009, 10:35 AM
Looks like people have mentioned pretty much everything I'd want to mention here. But I couldn't let this comment pass:


We've got rings cloaks and necks with extra armor often making them a stronger choice in 80% of tanking situations then their non-amor (bit higher stamina) equivalents. Especially for shield tanks: armor makes your blocking stronger.

Excuse me, what? Unless you're assuming two or three jumps of logic on the part of the reader, that just plain doesn't follow.

I agree that people should pay more attention to bonus armor items than they seem to, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with blocking.

BuliwynT
08-17-2009, 10:37 AM
I don't think stam-stacking is about taking 3 hits in a row without dying. If you take 3 hits in a row without a heal or tick of a hot, it's ultimately someone elses fault.

For example, and we'll use this 3-hit method:
1) Having 46k health buffed and being hit for 20k once, twice, healed for 16k from a holy light bringing you to 22k and surviving the third 20k hit in time for another healer or two to land a heal. 100% chance survival.
2) Having 42k health buffed and being hit for 20k once, twice, healed for 16k from a holy light bringing you to 18k and dying on the third 20k hit (albiet small % assuming more avoidance than the above, it's still possible)

All made up numbers, but I think this is the reality of the 3 hit rule.. besides, that third hit might not even be avoidable. There's plenty of magic damage floating about now.

If know it's a purely physical fight, and you want to use your avoidance set, go ahead.. but using your high stam set works for everything. That's maybe why you see so many tanks using it. It's simple.

As for sockets.. if you're gonna do parry/stam for your reds, you may as well do def/stam in the yellows. The alternative would be exp/stam for reds, hit/stam for yellows. Assuming you're gonna use different sets for different fights.

markv
08-17-2009, 12:05 PM
You can't dodge or parry a spell is what I've always gone by, so stacking stam is where it's at for me. With the way tank drops are going and having a couple of tanks in the guild I just don't have the option to have serious multiple sets, plus I'll be honest, I'm lazy ;).

I have my all in one hard mode tanking set, my 4 piece bonus set for when I'm doing hodir/mimiron (which is gemmed for Sta, just a piece or two swapped to get the bonus) and then a ridiculous block (gemmed all str) set that I use for questing/dailies/heroic where I take almost zero damage because it's so ridiculous!

Unger
08-17-2009, 12:52 PM
Just a quick chime in.....

Before the patch, avoidance had a nasty habit of leaving a tank rage starved.... you get 2-3 dodges in a row and your healers love you.... but your dps gets pwnd because you lost aggro due to a lack of rage. Now, I believe we are getting rage on avoidance so that is less of an issue.... Back then, you didnt always want a boss to miss you.

Having said that, there are times when you do for sure. Hodir comes to mind during frozen blows. A timely dodge/parry will reduce the amount of damage that is done to the whole raid.

Finally, I believe that there is a bit of a showcase factor to the gear. Someone cant walk up to you and say "holy crap, you have 65% avoidance"! but they can walk up and say "holy crap, you have 36.2k unbuffed!!"

I agree with most of the posts that you need a balance. But I stack stamina whenever I have an opportunity. The bigger the cushion for the healers, the better.

Voodootroll
08-18-2009, 08:41 AM
All great points here so far. Hit is important but you will do fine with around 200. You don't need to be capped. Like the others have said as well you get enough avoidence from the gear. Most float at 65% - 70% avoidence unbuffed. The only thing to add I have found that is sometimes lacking on tanking gear is expertise.

-VD

Insahnity
08-18-2009, 09:12 AM
Voodootroll, this is because the Devs did this on purpose.

-Nax Gear has too much expertise
-Ulduar Gear has too much hit
-Dev's have stated they do not want people to think that higher ilvl=BiS. Sometimes, a lower iLVL item is better. Example for tank is taking a 219 helm over a 226 helm because the 226 helm has all Shield Block Value stats while the 219 has dodge/parry/hit/expertise. It is to be expected that some Nax gear is to be retained even in U25 and HToCr.
-Your alternative is to gem for it, at the cost of survival, another stated goal of devs: Pick a balance betwee survival or threat, and having too much survival and no threat means you will fail.

Do I think this is right? No, this is bull-excrement, but it is the expectations of the Devs.

Dragaan
08-18-2009, 09:17 AM
Two juxtaposing things I'll submit for consideration:

1.) The removal of Crushing Blows makes EH much less important. Gone are the times when a drastic spike could sneak its way into your face........

I stopped reading there. You obviously haven't been doing hardmodes such as Iron council, vezax, thorim. True, crushing blows are gone.... But "drastic spikes" are still all over the place. I don't remember pre-wotlk bosses hitting for 80%+ of your entire hp pool (hell, sometimes even with shieldwall-type cooldowns active). Just because you know an incredibly large hit is coming up doesn't make EH any less important. You still need it. Lots of it.

Griff
08-18-2009, 10:36 AM
Another issue that I don't think was considered fully is that having a very high stam pool during hard mode encounters makes lives a little easier for healers. You're probably only running with three healers during Hodir HM and there are times that a flash heal or similar may need to suffice instead of a larger healing. A quick hypothetical illustration for what I mean - imagine the difference in being able to take 2.5 hits unhealed hits from hodir - sure, without healing, the 3rd hit will kill you regardless but it'll only take a half-strength heal from a healer running to avoid a cave-in to keep you upright through the third hit.

Bullwerk
08-18-2009, 11:01 AM
An early poster mentioned the real reason I stack Stam when gemming. Buried in a post somewhere is a comment about the amounts of Avoidance provided by gems. It's just too little for me to value it over the healthy chunk of HP that comes from one of those Epic Stam Gems. That tiny bit of avoidance isn't going to save me from a good deal of damage being thrown around these days (damned non-physical damage). The socket bonuses are even worse, 4 dodge rating? WTF!

Avoidance is important and tanks should always be looking to grab it where they can in as large a quantity as they can from their gear. Search out the pieces with Avoidance and threat stats while ignoring the relatively useless BV and Block Rating crap. But when it comes to gems and enchants go for where you get the most bang for your buck as they say. You will find that in nearly every case a fat helping of health provides the best return on your investment.

Insahnity
08-18-2009, 02:44 PM
Except for the whole DR thing, every little bit of avoidance adds up. There is no piece of armor with 150 dodge or 180 parry (yet), but if you add it up, it starts to make a difference. If you decide a little here or a little there is not gonna make a difference, well, it WILL. Again, the only wrinkle is in Diminishing returns, which a lot of everyday tanks don't run into. If you consider an avoidance tank and a stam tank, both will have EQUAL survival rates.

I don't know how else to pound this into people, it's all about balance and anticipating the incoming damage on a fight. A stam stacked tank with no avoidance will die just as surely as a pure avoidance tank, but in different fights.

gacktt
08-18-2009, 11:31 PM
A pure stam tank will have more than enough avoidance for his raiding tier.

A pure avoidance tank will very rarely have enough EH for his raiding tier.

KnThrak
08-19-2009, 01:51 AM
The catch-22 with that is, gacktt, you can't gear purely for one in the first place. ;)

Insahnity
08-19-2009, 09:08 AM
A pure stam tank will have more than enough avoidance for his raiding tier.

A pure avoidance tank will very rarely have enough EH for his raiding tier.

Incorrect:

A pure stam tank will NOT have enough avoidance for his entire raiding tier.

A pure avoidance tank will NOT have enough EH for his entire raiding tier.

OR

A pure stam tank will have enough avoidance for his entire raiding tier.

A pure avoidance tank will have enough EH for his entire raiding tier.

Indicating a difference between the two implies a difference in gearing levels, which means it is no longer a fair comparison. The diminishing returns was implemented to reduce the imbalance between the two strategies favouring avoidance tanks. I think they went overboard, and they are still tweaking, as indicated by the latest patch notes.