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hilljack
08-14-2009, 04:03 PM
Hello!

Here is my Armory Profile:

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Aggramar&n=Hilljack)

Please let me know any areas where I might improve. My current Expertise level is a work in progress--I can hit the soft cap with stat food so I'm not too concerned about it--I'm trying to get my hands on one of the swords or maces with expertise since that will also activate my human racial expertise bonus (however insultingly small it may be.) Not sure how much net threat that will generate, though, with the weapon dps I'd lose giving up Last Laugh . Seems like a wash, to be honest.

Thanks in advance for your help--I appreciate it.

Another thing:

Here is a WWS report from a recent Auriaya fight I tanked.

http://wowwebstats.com/tpgrzkg1nmqki?s=292519-345695&a=x280000000370ca6#abilities

Much of my gear and setup has changed since then but can anyone let me know if there is anything drastically amiss with my general tanking mechanic? Thanks--trying to see if there is anything I can do better.

Bragoon
08-14-2009, 06:41 PM
Hmm, you are gemming to much for expertise. The only time you would ever want to stop gemming for stam is if you were to drop crit immunity or you cannot maintain a good amount of threat on your mobs.

26 expertise is not the end all be all of threat, you do not need it, and if it comes down to it you can always ask for misdirects and tricks. Everything else looks good, you have a little bit more block rating than normal, but thats fine as long as you aren't gearing for it.

Petninja
08-14-2009, 06:56 PM
You look fine to me. If you wanted to squeeze a little more stamina out you could pick up the Black Heart from ToC, but you'd lose your dodge use obviously.

I'd have to disagree about the Expertise though. Considering you have basically none on your gear naturally that I see, gemming for it isn't a bad idea at all.

Bragoon
08-14-2009, 09:55 PM
I'd have to disagree about the Expertise though. Considering you have basically none on your gear naturally that I see, gemming for it isn't a bad idea at all.

Thats fine, I just look at expertise as a straight threat stat, while, at times it can be a surviv stat.

Mostly I don't worry about threat stats though because I come from a raiding guild where TotT and MD's are always on tanks

Fourier
08-14-2009, 10:49 PM
With your health pool and that little expertise, gemming for it seems fine as long as your aren't getting complaints about being too hard to heal. Looks like your health pool and avoidances are good though, so i don't see it being a problem.

Look to get Titanguard or Shiver. Those are probably your best options. you wont lose the hit and you'll gain everywhere else (including expertise as you are human).

Ryoku
08-15-2009, 06:07 AM
@ Petninja: the black heart has only 126 stamina whereas his current trinket has 162 so he would lose around 36 stamina. The good thing would be the potential increase in amor. I read somewhere here that it has a cooldown of 45 sec. But he would loose a lot of emergency dodge.

Petninja
08-15-2009, 06:56 AM
@ Petninja: the black heart has only 126 stamina whereas his current trinket has 162 so he would lose around 36 stamina. The good thing would be the potential increase in amor. I read somewhere here that it has a cooldown of 45 sec. But he would loose a lot of emergency dodge.

You can't actually count that 51 stam gem as a 51 stam gem, because it can go anywhere. You would count it as an 30 gem or a 24 stam if you're being cheap about gemming. Anyone who treats it as a 51 is unrealisticly inflating the quality of their trinket for sentimental value I suspect. Also, with his current gemming in it he's only getting 123 as it is and that is with the inflated value of the Dragon Eye. Realistically the trinket is only worth 102 stamina by his gemming, if he put stamina in the bottom gem he could push it up another 21 stamina bringing it just under The Black Heart in stamina where at this point he would want to decide if he wanted the massive armor boost with the trinket vs the on use dodge.

TL;DR i suspect you were referring to the Heart of Iron, while I was referring to his JC Crab. If he is following EH theory The Black Heart will do more for him and the proc is going to provide at least the same damage reduction as the on use.

Ryoku
08-15-2009, 10:02 AM
Yeah I think we misunderstood each other here. I was talking about comparing the black heart vs the heart of Iron, maybe this will explain to you why i was a little confused with your statement

hilljack
08-15-2009, 11:16 AM
Thank you all for the helpful comments. Petninja, your point about the Black Heart being an EH equalizer is one I had not considered and it makes sense. I've actually kind of been relieved when the trink doesn't drop since it seemed like a tough decision to make. hehe. Now I'll be happier when it finally does.

hilljack
08-15-2009, 09:44 PM
Added a WWS report to original post to see if anyone could suggest improvements to tanking mechanic. Thanks!

Manginae
08-16-2009, 05:01 AM
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Malfurion&n=Manginae) - mine
(I prefer to be at a higher expertise, but I added 1k armor and in return lost 50hp, and 50ish exp with my new rings)

I am worried about your Hit rating,
Looking at your wws it seems that I have a higher avergae hit for SS by about 1k. This could be due to not stacking enough Block value, but tbh you should avoid all block rating gear if you can.

And take out some of those points in Shield spec and put them in crit, mah god. I usually crit once every three abilitites, why i prob have a higher average damage by 500ish for each attack, excluding the armor ap i get.

I like to think ahead for my gear, its like chess, you get some pieces that are not optimal but then own in the long run once you get the three or so you need. Map out your gear goals and you shall suceed.

Currently I need titangaurd and some other def peice to be added and I can has 26.5 unbuffed with regemming away all those nasty non 30 stam gems. And Jc.

Keza
08-16-2009, 06:03 AM
Hey Hill, this post might help explain block rating since 3.2

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f97/53858-block-rating-new-items-3-2-a.html

Rhyseh
08-16-2009, 08:31 AM
I have a couple of suggestions to boost your overall threat in terms of gear. Your hit rating is very low as has already been suggested and while block value will boost your shield slam damage you should not have much trouble holding aggro on the vast majority of fights (Hodir HM is the exception). Stamina and expertise while good are not the be all and end all and in an EH set I would never use a JC gem on expertise.

The main key about tanking and stats is to maintain balance, and while your health pool is nice and high your expertise and hit is very low. To remedy this situation I would recommend you acquire the following items (note I have only listed items off bosses you have completed):

Head
Head slot is fine, although I personally would gem it with stam this entirely depends on your tanking style.

Neck
Titanstone Pendant - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45538) - Trash drop
or
Boundless Ambition - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40387) - KT 25 man Naxx
These would give you a nice expertise boost alternatively you can go for Heritage - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40069) for the hit rating

Shoulders
Obviously T8 or T9 would be better here however another option is the shoulders from XT-002 on 25's Shoulderplates of the Deconstructor - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45251)

Back
Back is fine and the enchant is good. Want to sell it to me? Refuses to drop for me :(

Chest
Again I would fill that gem slot with a stam gem unless you are really hurting for the defense.

Wrists
Try and pickup Flamewatch Armguards - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45283) off Flame Levi ten man, they will give you a little less stam but you gain the hit.
Better than the above you could also get Mimiron's Inferno Couplings - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45111) from 25 mimi.
Also 10 man TotC drops some very nice wrists aswell.

Hands
Hands are fine

Waist
Ok Change that JC gem to a stam one and the belt would be perfect. That belt is the best place to get your red gem for your meta so I would keep that Expertise+stam gem there.

Legs
Swap these over for Saronite Plated Legguards - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45267) when you get T8 shoulders if you want to maintain the 4pc, remember the 4pc is only effective against magic damage so swap out gear for physical damage fights if they give you more mitigation/EH.

Feet
As good as Spiked Death Dealers are for EH they aren't much chop for threat stats:
Charred Saronite Greaves - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45166) will give you a nice chunk of hit. Ignis 25man

Rings
Rings are good, however if you are having threat issues throw on the badge ring for the threat stats, it also has a nice chunk of defense. Another great ring is Platinum Band of the Aesir - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=45326) Auriaya 25man it has a nice balance of both expertise and defensive stats.

Trinkets
Throw away the monarch crab and pickup The Black Heart - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=47216) EH bonus and stamina in abundance (N ToC). If you are looking for threat Mark of Norgannon - Item - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?item=40531) is an excellent expertise bonus (H Maly).

Additionally I would advise dropping three points out of shield specialization and maxing out deep wounds and putting two points into either Improved Disciplines or Cruelty, this should give you more threat overall or more survivability. Some people would advise speccing out of Focused rage and into Shield Specialization, however I don't believe the benefit is great enough to warrant the loss of focused rage. If you go with improved disciplines be sure to pickup glyph of shieldwall for a 2 min CD on shield wall.

One more thing I would highly advise if you are struggling for threat is to revise your key binds. Remember you need to be able to move during a fight and still maintain aggro, this is something clickers cannot do. Bloodwraith has put up a great how to article about factors you should consider when binding your keys.

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/41865-keybinds-you.html

One thing I would advise it to not be afraid to stray off the number keys. For example I have my keys bound to `,1,2,3,4,5,6,q,e,r,t,f,g,v,b and I also have a number of ctrl and shift modifiers of these. All of these play a role and all of these are easy to reach, another thing I would advise it to bind Heroic Strike to you mouse wheel, it will certainly help prevent some RSI.

Also here's a nice flow chart that helps when understanding the prot warrior rotation:
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/41426-ideal-warrior-single-target-threat-rotation.html

I sort of went on longer than intended here, I hope this helps you out a bit and helps fix any issues you have.

Rhyseh

hilljack
08-16-2009, 03:25 PM
Thanks again, to all, for your help. TY especially to Rhyseh--I appreciate the time you took to post all that info--very helpful indeed. I actually have the FL bracers and I'm getting them gemmed/enchanted for use.

I guess the main thing that is confusing me is the relationship between hit/expertise. When I look at other warrior tanks in highly-progressed environments, it looks like they tend to favor one or the other. I am getting some comments about having low hit and others about having high expertise. Not sure if I need to add hit in addition to the expertise I have. As I said, the fight data I posted was from a different gear set when I didn't have a whole lot of either so the miss rates from straight miss and being dodged/parried are quite high--much more than I am seeing now. Should I look to add a lot of hit even though I have corrected the lack of expertise?

Keza
08-16-2009, 03:28 PM
Hey Hill in our AMR forums under tanking I have a post about hit and expertise from tankingtips.com that explains the differences.

Keza
08-16-2009, 03:32 PM
So for better tank threat my understanding is get exp soft cap at 25 (but 56 is hard cap for either parry or dodge, can't remember which Vene has that post on tanking tips), aim for 8% hit cap rating, tanks should aim for around 10% crit or more, other than that stack strength/ap from gear and do all this without dropping your tank stats. I've no idea what a ballpark ap for a tank would be.

Quoting myself from another thread. I would not suggest gearing specifically for crit, but a few points in cruelty can further you there.

hilljack
08-16-2009, 08:49 PM
Thanks, Keza.

I guess my question was more along the lines of whether or not it is necessary to add a lot of hit once you have enough expertise that threat is not a problem. In any case, with the changes I made, I seem to have plenty of both now (26 exp., 182 hit). I also tweaked my spec a little to put points into cruelty as some of you have suggested. End result, I just tanked ToC 25 and never had any dps anywhere near me on threat. Really helped a lot. Ended up with 549 def. rtg. in the process, too. Think the shrewdest move is to replace def. chest enchant with 275 health?

Last question remaining--If I switch my 34 expertise JC gem for a 51 stamina one, will I still have ample expertise to maintain similar threat?

Thanks again for the help all of you have given me--it is much-appreciated. :)

Rhyseh
08-16-2009, 09:43 PM
Yes you will still be able to maintain threat, I would advise however that you use Expertise food to build it up to, or above, the 26 mark. The reason why 26 is so great is that it cancel's out dodge's altogether, while it also reduces the bosses chance to parry. Try and maintain 26 if possible as it will smooth out your aggro generation. This will still not Prevent threat drops (avoidance streaks are unavoidable), but will provide you with less spiky threat gen.

275 health is a great chest enchant, one thing that I didn't mention in my last post (forgive me I posted it at 1am lol) is that you should change you stam enchant on your shield to defense. While 18 stam is good I personally believe that 20 defense is much better.

veneretio
08-18-2009, 07:15 AM
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Malfurion&n=Manginae) - mine
(I prefer to be at a higher expertise, but I added 1k armor and in return lost 50hp, and 50ish exp with my new rings)

I am worried about your Hit rating,
Looking at your wws it seems that I have a higher avergae hit for SS by about 1k. This could be due to not stacking enough Block value, but tbh you should avoid all block rating gear if you can.

And take out some of those points in Shield spec and put them in crit, mah god. I usually crit once every three abilitites, why i prob have a higher average damage by 500ish for each attack, excluding the armor ap i get.

I like to think ahead for my gear, its like chess, you get some pieces that are not optimal but then own in the long run once you get the three or so you need. Map out your gear goals and you shall suceed.

Currently I need titangaurd and some other def peice to be added and I can has 26.5 unbuffed with regemming away all those nasty non 30 stam gems. And Jc.
This advice is all over the map.

1. Hit Rating really is not that important most of time. I'm sorry, it's just not.
2. Shield Spec is really strong and far better than Cruelty since it allows you to Heroic Strike more often.

To Hilljack, you're doing great. The biggest change I think you could make is dropping your Vigilance glyph for the Shield Wall instead and working 2/2 Imp Disciplines into your build.

Rhyseh
08-18-2009, 08:48 AM
2. Shield Spec is really strong and far better than Cruelty since it allows you to Heroic Strike more often.

Vene makes a good argument here with Shield Spec vs Cruelty, I'll amend my post tomorrow to reflect this (2am and time for bed right now).

Griff
08-18-2009, 10:47 AM
Another thing: +18 stam to shield? You'd be better off with +20 defense - then you could ditch the defense/stam hybrid gem in your chest.

Also, you might want to pick up a Northern Barrier from the AH - it is boe and itemized with both +hit and +expertise which would let you regem a little.

hilljack
08-18-2009, 11:29 AM
Thanks, Rhyseh, Veneretio. I'll play with the spec a little to get the survivability back.

Good point, Griff--I have the mats for the shield enchant--I was a little dumbstruck after making other changes and finding my def. rtg. at 549 so I left it alone while trying to come up with a plan. hehe. I think I'll do that and also change my def-to-chest enchant for health. That way, I can regem the chest as you have suggested and still have ample def.rtg..

Better, still, I'll keep my eyes open for that shield--didn't realize it was BOE so thanks for the tip!

Thunderhand
08-18-2009, 01:03 PM
Better, still, I'll keep my eyes open for that shield--didn't realize it was BOE so thanks for the tip!

Not if I get there firs Hill ....:)

veneretio
08-18-2009, 03:57 PM
Good point, Griff--I have the mats for the shield enchant--I was a little dumbstruck after making other changes and finding my def. rtg. at 549 so I left it alone while trying to come up with a plan. hehe. I think I'll do that and also change my def-to-chest enchant for health. That way, I can regem the chest as you have suggested and still have ample def.rtg..

If you'd like an easy way to figure out which enchants to choose in order to maximize both Defense and Stamina, check out this post:
Should I Gear, Gem or Enchant for Defense? - Warriors - TankingTips.com (http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/05/11/should-i-gear-gem-or-enchant-for-defense/)

Keza
08-18-2009, 05:51 PM
Enough Vene, I shamelessly promote you as it is!

jk...lolerz