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View Full Version : Tanking General Vezax - Guild Issues



Verolina
08-11-2009, 08:27 AM
In the past my guild would always use a druid tank to do general vezax on 25man due to the high health pool and the ability to use barkskin + the occasional external cooldown such as a disc priests pain suppression in order to simply sit still and take the damage from vezax.

Unfortunately our druids both decided to go on holiday at the same time meaning that we had to come up with an alternative, i suggested i tank it as blood as i also had a reasonably high health pool (47k), i had icebound fortitude for every surge of darkness + numerous other cooldowns (vampiric blood, mark of blood,stoneform,rune tap) to ensure that i could stay alive.

It worked perfectly but unfortunately they nerfed IBF so it has a longer cooldown, now i have to do what our druid tanks did and rely on an external cooldown for every even surge of darkness (2nd,4th etc).

This bothered my guilds paladin tank as due to other dk nerfs he now has more health than me, the advantage of block and can still use a cooldown for every odd surge of darkness and honestly believes he can do exactly what i can do if not better, yet people think otherwise (and i agree with them).

I think this won't work, not because he's a bad player or class but more because it's making it harder for the raid on a false basis. Although i don't have IBF for every surge i still have a cooldown for every surge so for example i would use IBF for the first, then use vampiric blood and stoneform + something like pain suppression for the second and then cycle back around again. In comparison he has less cooldowns or atleast the ones that he has are on a longer cooldown, he'd need external cooldowns alot more than i would and be a pain to heal, i'm willing to let him try the kiting tactic but the cooldown technique just sounds suicidal for a warrior or a paladin to try.

my question is, are any of the other specs superior for this task based upon their cooldowns, if so could you link me what people consider the top tanking spec for the moment? I need to ensure that i have 45k health like i do now but also make tanking through the surges easier on the healers mana than it would be for my paladin friend to do it.

Glittersmith
08-11-2009, 08:31 AM
CD rotation works well for both warriors and paladins, the protection paladin and me as prot warrior don't have any issues surviving the surges with the help of external cds on the odd surges.

And in a 25man raid you should really have a lot of external cds laying around.

Edit: And don't forget get the newly buffed Argent Defender talent that paladins got this patch which can be a real lifesaver.

Verolina
08-11-2009, 08:35 AM
nah your not getting it, i'm a deathknight, my paladin friend could do it i just don't see why he should when all it does is make life more difficult so he can flex his e-peen.

I have a cooldown for every surge of darkness i just need external cooldowns as a security blanket incase he hits fast as he does from time to time, my paladin friend would need an external cooldown just to stay alive.

Akeber
08-11-2009, 09:00 AM
I'm a paladin, and my guild's most reliable and best geared tank. I tank vezax on 25 (pre and post 3.2) with my bubble wall every other surge, using pain supressions and hand of sacrifice for the ones my CD wasn't up for. Worked fine for us.

Because of the 2 min cds on stoneform and vampiric blood, you will take a little less damage and more healing for the surges where your IBF is on CD, but you're still going to need the external CDs. So the coordination of making sure the person giving the CD is in range and doesn't mess it up is still there.

Don't discount the new AD. Reduced damage on the second unavoided attack, if it happens without significant heals in between, and a "get out of jail free" card.

Any tank can tank vezax. It's just a matter of preference.

Verolina
08-11-2009, 09:51 AM
i never said you could'nt, i wanted to know if there was anyway of improving my dk tank spec in order to make it easier on the healers otherwise i might as well let my paladin friend do it and i can help on interupts. People just made it clear to me that in the past dk's were better at tanking vezax, now i don't think that's as true as it once was but not enough to fuck up a winning setup because my paladin friend wants to flex his e-peen. In short is it still worth having me as a dk do it over a paladin or do the nerfs to dk's make us about equal in terms of capability of tanking it?

Esch
08-11-2009, 09:55 AM
Any tank can tank vezax. It's just a matter of preference.

It's a matter of healers. Pre 3.2, a DK tank had the utility of making healing a relatively boring aspect of this encounter. Now, healers carry half the weight of the fight with external CDs, plus it they need to adapt to the changes in tanks (DKs get hit harder, paladins have more leeway with AD's absorbing). So far, I don't feel my healing corp has adapted, which leaves me (as a DK) looking even squishier.

orcstar
08-11-2009, 10:01 AM
nah your not getting it, i'm a deathknight, my paladin friend could do it i just don't see why he should when all it does is make life more difficult so he can flex his e-peen.

I have a cooldown for every surge of darkness i just need external cooldowns as a security blanket incase he hits fast as he does from time to time, my paladin friend would need an external cooldown just to stay alive.
Isn't it your epeen that's getting hurt because you're not the default tank for
Vezax anymore?

Every tank wants to tank every boss, now things changed and both paladin and dk need external cooldowns to tank vezax. If he's a friend and wants to tank him, let him.

Akeber
08-11-2009, 11:31 AM
It's a matter of healers.

I would hope that the healers that have brought you through all the encounters in Ulduar, to get to the point where you are actually able to face vezax, could manage the simple task of popping a pain supression or hand of sacrifice on the MT, when GV casts surge, two or three times during the encounter.

BlazeDale
08-11-2009, 11:42 AM
Isn't it your epeen that's getting hurt because you're not the default tank for
Vezax anymore?

Every tank wants to tank every boss, now things changed and both paladin and dk need external cooldowns to tank vezax. If he's a friend and wants to tank him, let him.


I say let the healers decide who tanks.. they usually have a better idea of which tank is easier to heal. Honestly though, the DK serves more of a purpose doing the dps role considering he can yank those clouds around to a location that is more convenient for the healers. Let the Pally give it a try. Where is the harm?

Asylan
08-11-2009, 12:07 PM
We did General the other night, and started with our Main Tank who is a warrior. He was going the drag-the-boss-around method and it was proving difficult for the raid. They asked me to tank it so that we could stand in place. I tanked it in frost spec, used IBF/trinket for the first CD on the odds, and I assume the healers were rolling CDs on the evens. I would throw AMS/Heart of Iron on the evens as well just to try to help out. I had never tanked it before, and we didn't wipe. I'd say frost can tank this just as well as Blood can, but a DK has a much easier time than a warrior. As far as paladins, not so sure. They seem to be super OP right now.

ttocs
08-11-2009, 12:10 PM
I switch to blood for this (on hard mode), because I can do about 800-1000 HPS if I time my death strikes and rune taps properly.

The damage he deals isn't a huge deal, just have to manage cooldowns.

Missgunst
08-12-2009, 04:01 AM
If you can tank it with blood specc you will be the healers favorite since you heal your self for a whole lot. With VB up and skilled DS you can really help your healers out. The surge CD thing is not the main problem, using external cooldowns is always good and your healers should get used to it. DK is one of the best tanks on that encounter, even after the nerfs

Eide
08-12-2009, 05:24 AM
I don't really see the major issue to be totally honest. Healers were given " external cooldown abilities" for a reason. If Blizzard didn't want them to be used, they would'nt have given those abilties to those healers. In fact, it's another fight (not unlike Mimiron P1) which is designed around the ability to effectively juggle (external) cooldowns. You cannot expect -not- to use them.

Any tank can tank the encounter without serious issues (pre and post 3.2) and using external CDs is the name of the day. Nuff said really.

Crommi
08-12-2009, 05:54 AM
Tanked it just fine last night with "Shieldwall-->Pain Supression-->Pain Supression" rotation. Healers didn't seem to have any issues and we accidentally activated hard-mode because no one had to pop clouds for mana regen.

Eide
08-12-2009, 06:35 AM
Tanked it just fine last night with "Shieldwall-->Pain Supression-->Pain Supression" rotation. Healers didn't seem to have any issues and we accidentally activated hard-mode because no one had to pop clouds for mana regen.

Were you in my raid then :eek:? Sounds just like mine last Friday.

As a sidenote, on 10 man I tank the encounter on my Warrior without any external CDs, just alternating Shield Wall and Last Stand + Trinkets.