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View Full Version : Raid ldr says my threat too low versus Pally tank.



Korwinaros
08-10-2009, 01:24 PM
Im Prot, Dod21.40%, Parry19.62%, Block21,59%, Def 557 (gear only) Armor25,672, HP32191(unbuffed), AP3233, hit301, Expertise22.

Tank rotation Devestate x2, SSlam, Revenge, (cleave with add) Tclap, HS rage dump.

Raid leader says I dont gen enough threat, vs. Pally Tank. any halp" appreciated

Tentcale
08-10-2009, 01:27 PM
The way I tank is constantly click HS. I don't even get a white hit in because of how many times I hit HS. I use Sslam when it's up and revenge of course and start out with Dev.

I don't know if it helps but that's always been easy threat for me.

Bulk
08-10-2009, 04:08 PM
More expertise. Until the hard cap (56 or so) expertise is your best stat for more threat, and at the very least you should have 26 expertise to push parries off the table.

Irat
08-10-2009, 04:14 PM
at the very least you should have 26 expertise to push parries off the table.

By Parries you mean Dodges dont you


For level 83 (raid bosses) the soft cap(for dps) is 6.5% dodge or 26 expertise (214 expertise rating), and the hard cap(for tanks) is 14% parry or 56 expertise (460 expertise rating)

Benihimey
08-10-2009, 05:58 PM
trying to threat on par with a pally tank is almost impossible since they have +90% threat their dot crits.

uglybbtoo
08-10-2009, 07:38 PM
There is a sticky for single target threat rotation

http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/41426-ideal-warrior-single-target-threat-rotation.html

And the hit cap is 262 which you are way over and slightly under expertise soft cap.

Long and short however at those stats you should not be having trouble on single target, on aoe mob tanking forget it you never going to be able to match the pally its what they do.

If you doing 25 man your dodge looks at the low end for mind see if you can trade some block in.

Gumurak
08-10-2009, 07:39 PM
First off your raid leader is picking a very very poor thing to compare you to. It's pretty unrealistic to be honest.

Ok as for your rotation. Devistate has been buffed to patch threat, not suppliment it. Open your rotation up with a shield slam, then shield bash. The roll into devistate until it procs ss. Always use SS when its up. I use an addon called powerauras that helps with this. Or tellmewhen.

My typical rotation consists of SS,SB,Dev(unless SSprocs I roll it x2), peppered with HS, tclap, shockwave, concus blow. Remove SW and CB from rotation when on cooldown.

Your threat will 100% improve if you keep SS on cooldown.

Blackheathen
08-10-2009, 07:59 PM
Why use shield bash?

Best thing to do is check the link in Uglybbtoo's post

The thing is, it is no longer a rotation since we now have the sword and board talent. Back in TBCC it used to be SS, Rev, Dev, Dev but those days are gone. What you need to do now is prioritise. If you get lucky you can SS, Rev, SS, Dev, SS, etc (well ok that would be very lucky but can and does happen).

Shield Slam>rev>conc Blow>Shockwave>Devastate (even after dev buff it is still last, at least for me, conc blow and shockwave still hit harder on single target).

Stick with that priority system, use devestate only when everthing else is on cooldown and watch for sword and board procs for another free shield slam. Only use Tclap and Demo shout to refresh the debuff (i.e. 30 seconds). Obviously spam heroic strike at the same time so long as you have the rage.

Unless you really need it to soak some special damage boost from a boss, use shield block as often as you can, your shield slams will hit much harder when it is active.

Viggo Vickers
08-10-2009, 08:02 PM
Shield Slam and Revenge should be your big two you always need to get off when they are up. Devistate has always been bottom of my rotation, at least after Sunders are on, but that might change now with 3.2, I still need to check up on that.

Shield Slam, Revenge, Devistate x2, then start getting your debuffs on. Don't forget to use Shockwave and Concussion Blow too, they cause a good chunk of threat, especially if Shield Slam and Revenge are down.

When I've ran into Prot Warriors on my server who have threat problems, 90% of the time is because they don't Heroic Strike (or Cleave for multi target) enough. Get it keybound, and start spamming it when your over 50+ rage. KEYBIND IT! Don't click it.

But ya, comparing you to a Prot Paladin, well... have to remember Paladins start with full mana, we Warriors start with 0 rage, so they always have better initial threat, but my experience has been it always evens out after awhile (in most cases).

Blackheathen
08-10-2009, 08:16 PM
Whilst yes Pallies do have awsome amounts of threat, we can do the job ok as well. as to starting with zero rage, cmon, bloodrage + charge = loads of rage. Just don't charge off the edge on Kologarn, now I wouldn't do something that stupid would I?? lolz

My concussion blow and shockwave still hit harder than devastate but... Devastate has around 35% crit chance with 2pc T8 so have to factor that in but in general, crits are not something to rely on as a tank.

Definitley aggree with you re heroic strike usage Viggo, spam the fu#4 out of it if you have the rage. Many still do not understand that heroic strike is not on the global cooldown, it is not an instant attack.

Gumurak
08-10-2009, 10:38 PM
Shield Slam and Revenge should be your big two you always need to get off when they are up. Devistate has always been bottom of my rotation, at least after Sunders are on, but that might change now with 3.2, I still need to check up on that.

Shield Slam, Revenge, Devistate x2, then start getting your debuffs on. Don't forget to use Shockwave and Concussion Blow too, they cause a good chunk of threat, especially if Shield Slam and Revenge are down.

When I've ran into Prot Warriors on my server who have threat problems, 90% of the time is because they don't Heroic Strike (or Cleave for multi target) enough. Get it keybound, and start spamming it when your over 50+ rage. KEYBIND IT! Don't click it.

But ya, comparing you to a Prot Paladin, well... have to remember Paladins start with full mana, we Warriors start with 0 rage, so they always have better initial threat, but my experience has been it always evens out after awhile (in most cases).

I forgot to add revenge into my rotation posted above. We do have a prioritize system like normal. But using SS and SB at the start still provides huge threat. So why use SB? Because I can, it still has threat attached to it and its on a CD. not a large one but still. Priorotize system works off what you throw first and procs from there on out. There is absolutely no reason NOT to use SB.

Devastate has not changed in it's usage. It's specifically used to proc SS over. Along with revenge, hence the use of revenge and devastate. However you can just about sync any mob to you opening with SS,SB and filling in from there. While I won't say that anyone is wrong, I do an amazing 6-7k tps with my particular rotation. And tank side by side with high geared paladins.

Bulk
08-10-2009, 11:57 PM
By Parries you mean Dodges dont you

Yes sorry - teach me to post just before I go to bed won't it :(

Miagorme
08-11-2009, 03:38 AM
Tell your raid leader Paladins have the best threat in the game, and that expecting you to keep up with your Paladin tank's threat is very unrealistic and that if you somehow did gem everything to threat, you'd lose at least some avoidance and health. Keep survivability over threat and tell your DPS not to be morons. It's their job not to pass you in threat. It's your job to make your threat reach an acceptable level. Take the advice regarding rotations above and take my advice regarding telling your raid leader to shove off and you'll be fine.

Akeber
08-11-2009, 07:54 AM
I doubt his raid leader is giving him a hard time about a mere 500-1000 tps difference between him and the pally tank. (EG. pally at 5K and he's pushing 4K) Maybe that's the case, but I doubt it.

I've dpsed (on my mage) in pugs where the tank, (warrior, paladin, DK, druid etc,) couldn't manage more than 2K TPS in a mix of naxx 10/25 gear. So, before we tell the OP that he shouldn't be comparing himself to the pally, or tell the DPS to "l2omen", maybe we should find out just how bad the problem is.

What is the average TPS you usually see on omen? Are the dps riding your butt the whole time you tank, and the prot pally is miles ahead of them when he does?

Gumurak
08-11-2009, 09:38 AM
Akeber, I tend to agree with you. but after he posted his rotation. it's pretty obvious that's what it is. I guess a little more information wouldn't hurt. The only thing I don't really agree with is saying....


So, before we tell the OP that he shouldn't be comparing himself to the pally

He's a warrior and he shouldn't be. it's not even remotely close to the same thing. You can tank side by with any paladin. With some of the best geared warriors ever. And you still will find out that a good paladin/war tanking dynamic has the paladin backing off approrpriatly. So I'll stick with my original comment of agreeing that the raid lead needs to back up a bit.

But bad threat or no bad threat. it is the dps's job to stay under him. Does not excuse under threating, but it doesn't excusse awareness either.

Grumdawg
08-11-2009, 10:00 AM
In response to

cmon, bloodrage + charge = loads of rage.
Bloodrage+Charge is awesome for that initial rage generation, sure. But what happens after you get that initial burst off and the pally has still managed to outthreat you?
But assuming you are able to keep on top of that pesky pally, I would say to the OP, remember that tanking is a balancing act, yes, you COULD gem up for threat (exp), load up on that threat. But are you going to be giving up 2.5k health doing it? whats going to happen to all that avoidance you spent so much time gearing up? Sure, that pally outthreats you, but threat wont mean much if you bite the dust as soon as you hit 110% threat just to beat him out in a game your raid leader is playing.
Prioritize, Prioritize, and I say again, Prioritize. (and spam that HS like there is no tommorrow!)

Griff
08-11-2009, 10:42 AM
Make sure your raid's rogues are ToTing you. Also, open with a shield slam when the mob's in range, forget the devastate until you've at least introduced your shield to said mob's face.

Are you vigilancing your dps? Do you have the glyph for it? If not, you might want to get it.

Finally, it might be worth noting that a pally will probably produce more threat even when you do these things. This doesn't mean we shouldn't tank and warriors can and do tank everything in the game - paladins just have very strong threat at this point.

Akeber
08-11-2009, 11:06 AM
Sure, that pally outthreats you, but threat wont mean much if you bite the dust as soon as you hit 110% threat just to beat him out in a game your raid leader is playing.

If the RL is giving you a hard time about losing in a "threat off" to prot paladin whilst you're both trying to tank the same mob, I'd start looking for a new guild ASAP.



He's a warrior and he shouldn't be. it's not even remotely close to the same thing. You can tank side by with any paladin. With some of the best geared warriors ever. And you still will find out that a good paladin/war tanking dynamic has the paladin backing off approrpriatly. So I'll stick with my original comment of agreeing that the raid lead needs to back up a bit.

Bad wording on my part. A well geared and properly played warrior will find it hard (if not impossible) to match the threat that a similarly geared and equally skilled paladin tanks can produce. Hell, even a lesser skilled paladin will probably produce more threat, as the class is generally easier to play.

However, this does not mean that a warrior tank cannot prodcuce acceptable threat, which is probably more what the OP's raid leader was trying to get at. If the paladin is at 6K tps while giving the DPS lots of breathing room and the OP (warrior) is at 5K and still keeping ahead, the OP's RL would probably have never brought it up.

I've seen warriors of all gear levels put out good threat, I know it's possible without sacrificing too much in the way of mitigation (expertice is significant mitigation for warriors). I just see too many falling into the "blame it on my class" mentality when faced with someone complaining about their threat generation.

The OP's armory link is broken as it seems he hasn't updated his profile since a server stransfer. Here is his spec:
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Earthen+Ring&cn=Korwinaros&gn=Knights+of+Ravenguard)

I'm no warrior expert by any stretch, but I'm thinking 3/3 in deep wounds would help.

Meythos
08-11-2009, 11:46 AM
1. Do you have enough health, avoidance and mitigation to keep your healers from having an OOM heart-attack?
2. Do you produce sufficient threat to allow your dps to put their foot to the floor and not worry about threat.
3. Do you know the mechanics and positioning of each fight to give your raid the best possible advantage.

If you can answer yes to all these then your RL should take a couple valium and throw on an old rerun of the Cosby Show. Your RL needs a better grasp of class mechanics because right now comparing a Warrior to a Pally for tanking is like comparing an orange to a bananna and then complaining the bananna doesn't have a citris taste.

XtreO
08-12-2009, 07:13 AM
I think your main fault is following a rotation. I keep HS up all the time, and use Revenge, Shield Slam, Conc blow, HcT and Shockwave whenever it is off CD, while filling the gaps with Devastate and refreshing debuffs. Gives me excellent threat, and with your gear, you should do more than me.

Go 15/5/51 for threat, with Focused Rage if you need more threat, along with Glyph of Blocking. With that specc, I aggroed XT yesterday (Paladin maintanking) between 1st and 2nd heart due to Devastate spam and Shield Slams whenever it came up through Sword and Board. Of course that was due to a critspree, but you get the point - the specc gives excellent threat. Now I don't have a threat meter, so I can't tell you what my threat was like, but people were pushing 4.5k DPS so I think the Paladin's aggro was quite allright.

drae
08-12-2009, 12:01 PM
just sneak a vigilance on the pally.. /grin

In all seriousness don't.. that's a joke.

Check out the flow chart posted here (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/41426-ideal-warrior-single-target-threat-rotation.html). I think it was posted already... but it's so easy to understand that every new warrior tank should see it.

Vigilance your highest DPS.

Spam heroic strike till your fingers bleed.

Remember the goal of threat production is to stay above your dps. There's no worry if your at 5k and your dps is at 3k... even if your paladin friend is at 10k, all that extra threat is only good for stroking epeen.

When I'm tanking a boss my goal is to produce enough threat to keep a buffer zone of ~10% over my DPS.. ie: considering my threat as 100% I want my DPS at 90%... that provides a minimum of 20% cushion before they pull aggro (melee) or 40% (ranged). Once I reach that TPS level, the rest of my itemization goes to survival. There's no reason for me to be double my DPS' threat; if im double my DPS' threat then I can afford to wear more mitigation.

The only goal of threat production is to stay over your DPS.
Hell I can out TPS my palladin co-tank... if I sacrifice 10% avoidance and 5k health. But whats the point IF my DPS never pulls aggro?

Gumurak
08-12-2009, 11:53 PM
But what happens after you get that initial burst off and the pally has still managed to outthreat you?


This poster hit it right on the head. Theres two thing that bother me to warrior tanking.

1.) Paladins
2.) raid leaders that ride the paladin tip without acknowledging class mechanics. And realizing bad tanking.

So here is what I mean by this. I tank side by side exclussively with a paladin on my server. His name is Abuz and we play on the Thorium Brotherhood server (yes an RP server lawlz away but havent found a serious place to transfer to).

I am happy to tank side by side with him. Even though his threat far exceeds mine he knows when to back off. And when to come forward. Everyone understands how tautn works now. Most of these bosses are tauntable. So threat is not an issue in gapping. If your RL is telling you your threat doesn't compare to a paladin. And you are trading on mobs and he out threats you or rips it off of you. You need to bring this to your raid leads attention. Because he is either....

1.) Pulling an epeen contest and out threating you intentionally.
2.) Doesn't understand tanking dynamics and is threat throwing all the damn time.
3.) Wants to be number one tank and has tunnel vision to all other priorities.

Tanking with more than one tank requires those tanks to realize thier strengths and weaknesses. The have to know when to taunt, when to move, when to threat, when not to threat, when to pull from the other, when to back off. If your tanking partner doesn't understand this or won't. Then the issue is primarily but not exclusively thier fault. And even more so on the raid leads fault for not understanding wtf he's doing when it comes to tanking dynamics with mutliple tanks.

weirjamin
08-13-2009, 06:46 AM
If you look in the 3.2 patch notes for prot warrior when shield block is active it gives shield slam a 100% bonus to threat.

I also agree you should not be following an exact rotation. Use your abilities as they proc. Keep up revenge, shiled slam and throw in a devistate as the timer gets low. I keep up Demo Shout and Commanding shout as well. If you are on MT and not OT can have pretty much endless rage for Heroic Strike.

Gumurak
08-13-2009, 12:30 PM
If you look in the 3.2 patch notes for prot warrior when shield block is active it gives shield slam a 100% bonus to threat.




Warriors

Battle Shout: Radius increased to 30 yards.
Bloodrage: This ability now generates 20 rage initially, and 10 rage over the next 10 seconds. The health cost is unchanged.
Commanding Shout: Radius increased to 30 yards.
Execute: This ability now never costs more than a total of 30 rage. The tooltip for Sudden Death has been revised to remove reference to that maximum, since the ability now behaves that way even when untalented.
Shield Slam: The benefit from additional block value this ability gains is now subject to diminishing returns. Diminishing returns occur once block value exceeds 30 times the player's level and caps the maximum damage benefit from shield block value at 34.5 times the player's level.
Talents

Fury

Armored to the Teeth: This talent now provides 1/2/3 attack power per 108 armor, up from per 180 armor.
Bloodsurge: Notification that Slam has become instant now appears in floating combat text.

Protection

Devastate: Weapon damage and bonus per Sunder Armor on the target increased by 100%. This ability now requires a shield to be equipped.
Shield Specialization: Now provides 5 rage on a block, dodge or parry instead of 2 rage on a block.


No it does not.

Muffin Man
08-13-2009, 12:55 PM
So why use SB? Because I can, it still has threat attached to it and its on a CD. not a large one but still. Priorotize system works off what you throw first and procs from there on out. There is absolutely no reason NOT to use SB.

Fastly becoming my favorite thread
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/39775-wow-3-0-threat-values.html

SB does all of 36 threat. Since most mobs you care about threat on are immune to daze throw that out the window. 36 threat is roughly 7 ticks of bloodrage.

SB is off the GCD and costs 10 rage (7 with FR)
HS is off the GCD and costs 12 rage (with imp HS)

I think I know which one I'd rather use as filler.

Ofc, you can use both at once (and use a special!) but I think I'd rather pocket the rage for an avoidance streak.

Plus I would hate to be in the habit of throwing SB for threat then forget that there's something I should be interrupting on this one boss, but I realize that would be user error.

Padinbann
08-13-2009, 01:27 PM
Imo opnion as a pally i agree with most ofth other people who have posted in saying that there is noting wrong wth your threat i a pally and even i sae im OP i say this ecause i have yet o meet a warrior on my server who can out Single target tank me without taunting then i get it righ back with a SoR crit or the SoR and HotR combo

Gumurak
08-17-2009, 08:16 AM
Fastly becoming my favorite thread
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f200/39775-wow-3-0-threat-values.html

SB does all of 36 threat. Since most mobs you care about threat on are immune to daze throw that out the window. 36 threat is roughly 7 ticks of bloodrage.

SB is off the GCD and costs 10 rage (7 with FR)
HS is off the GCD and costs 12 rage (with imp HS)

I think I know which one I'd rather use as filler.

Ofc, you can use both at once (and use a special!) but I think I'd rather pocket the rage for an avoidance streak.

Plus I would hate to be in the habit of throwing SB for threat then forget that there's something I should be interrupting on this one boss, but I realize that would be user error.

Like I stated I do it because I can. It's on a 10 second cooldown. Unless the fight is one that requires I use it as an interupt. I use it. Because it has 36 threat and I use it with HS. Difference, HS is on next swing. SB is now. Threat modifer is low but then agian its a matter of personal preference. Todays warriors have no issues with rage while fighting a boss, or at least I don't. And of course it's removed from my rotation on trash.

weirjamin
08-17-2009, 10:34 AM
Warriors

Battle Shout: Radius increased to 30 yards.
Bloodrage: This ability now generates 20 rage initially, and 10 rage over the next 10 seconds. The health cost is unchanged.
Commanding Shout: Radius increased to 30 yards.
Execute: This ability now never costs more than a total of 30 rage. The tooltip for Sudden Death has been revised to remove reference to that maximum, since the ability now behaves that way even when untalented.
Shield Slam: The benefit from additional block value this ability gains is now subject to diminishing returns. Diminishing returns occur once block value exceeds 30 times the player's level and caps the maximum damage benefit from shield block value at 34.5 times the player's level.
Talents

Fury

Armored to the Teeth: This talent now provides 1/2/3 attack power per 108 armor, up from per 180 armor.
Bloodsurge: Notification that Slam has become instant now appears in floating combat text.

Protection

Devastate: Weapon damage and bonus per Sunder Armor on the target increased by 100%. This ability now requires a shield to be equipped.
Shield Specialization: Now provides 5 rage on a block, dodge or parry instead of 2 rage on a block.


No it does not.

Ok OK, i usually do my home work. Has somthing changed so that after applying shild block shileld slam no longer has 100% bonus threat. I know I was using it on the PTR, and I swear seeing it on the post release 3.2.0 notes. Ill just link my sources below, which i should have done on my oritional reply post. If it really dosn't id like to know for sure.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> Shield Block (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=18360838240&postId=182706917028&sid=1#4)
Shield Block: Shield Slam no longer benefits from the increased block value granted by this ability. However, while Shield Block is active, Shield Slam generates 100% additional threat.

The Care and Feeding of Warriors: Patch 3.2 gets weird (http://www.wow.com/2009/07/09/the-care-and-feeding-of-warriors-patch-3-2-gets-weird/) Shield Block (http://ptr.wowhead.com/?spell=2565): Shield Slam no longer benefits from the increased block value granted by this ability. However, while Shield Block is active, Shield Slam generates 100% additional threat

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> I'm confused on the shield slam change (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=18312415767&sid=1)
Shield Block: Shield Slam no longer benefits from the increased block value granted by this ability. However, while Shield Block is active, Shield Slam generates 100% additional threat.

The change specifically says that Shield Slam won't benefit from the 100% block value of Shield Block but that it will simply do double the threat. You lose the damage but not the threat. There isn't anything confusing here.

Gumurak
08-18-2009, 06:18 AM
I never said it didn't. I just simply said it wasn't in the last patch notes. As to not confuse anyone. Thank you for clarifying thou.

weirjamin
08-19-2009, 06:36 AM
Ya my bad. I went and did all my research being as analy retentive as I am. They did remove it for the general release, but It def was there for PTR, was pretty sweet.

My apologies for posting bad info.

Trullion
08-19-2009, 02:28 PM
[quote=uglybbtoo;268251]Long and short however at those stats you should not be having trouble on single target, on aoe mob tanking forget it you never going to be able to match the pally its what they do.
/quote]

Sorry, I just cant buy that. I tank for my guild all the time on multi mobs, and on single mobs. I dont have threat problems. In fact, to date only one person has been able to pull threat off of me and that was a dual wield DK in frost aura doing dps while specced as a tank. Even then though, I was able to keep taunt up on the target and pull him back to me while holding him long enough for taunt to refresh itself.

The trick to multi mob tanking is to develope a rythym wherein you are simply tabbing through each target, throwing an instant attack like devaste or shield slam, and then tabbing to the next target. A good fast weapon like the Axe of the SenJin Protector helps tremendously as long as you can keep up with it. Using the glyph of sunder armor along with the glyph of devastate really stacks up the threat on more than one mob at once. You should haveplenty of rage so keep cleave up.

As far a special threat rotation...forget about it. I hear a lot about it, but basically playing a warrior is about whack-a-mole with a priority sequence. Since I am dual specced Prot/Arms I dont have any problems with it. Fury warriors seem to hav a little bit of time adjusting to it.

A basic multi mob tank sequence for me would start with a charge, followed by a thunderclap, and a shockwave. Then I would begin my "rotation". By rotation I mean, devastate, shield bash, and from then on its basically whatever comes up, and if two things come up choose whichever has the highest priority for generating rage. Ie. if revenge procs and you have devastate up, fire off a revenge. Also, keep thunderclap and shockwave on cooldown, they really help a lot for rage generation.

Basically though, anyone who tells you that warriors cannot tank multi mobs is full of it. I do it all the time in heroics and in raids, and dont have a problem. Is it harder to do? Yes it is. We dont have some of the nice magic efffects like soem of the other classes do. It takes more work, but it is very very doable.

Besides....who ever said that warriors liked it easy?

Gumurak
08-24-2009, 01:08 PM
This post wasn't about multimob tanking, it was about his raid leader stating he was not holding threat like a paladin. But your words of encouragement are noted.