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View Full Version : 3.2 Protection Spec - what to substitute



azn
08-04-2009, 05:58 AM
With the change to rage on avoidance, it got me wondering what i would have to leave out to get 5/5 in shield talent.

Thinking about dropping dw if the extra rage is increasing threat significantly.

Any ideas?

Xeonus
08-04-2009, 06:42 AM
Im thinking about using this spec.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warrior=35020000230000000000000000000003010000000 00000000000000000053351225000010521330113321&glyph=031018040702&version=10192

It takes points out of cruelty to max out Shield Spec. It sounds good but I don't know how it would play out

gabbu
08-04-2009, 06:56 AM
This is most likely what I will go with. Its similar to above but with gag order(Glyphs are mostly AOE specific but I carry a stockpile of glyphs and change them all the time).

[/URL][URL]http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warrior=35020000230000000000000000000003000000000 00000000000000000053351125000012521330113321&glyph=032005040703&version=10192 (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warrior=35020000230000000000000000000003010000000 00000000000000000053351225000010521330113321&glyph=031018040702&version=10192#)

Although I need 2 more points to keep into 2 min SW talents so I am not sure what else to drop yet.

EDIT: Sorry wrong link before

azn
08-04-2009, 07:07 AM
Hmm, im concerned removing cruelty will considerably hinder deep wounds, and gag order is pretty much needed to tank fights like iron council and pulling casters.

Dubzil
08-04-2009, 07:14 AM
I currently use a DW build without cruelty in it anyways, taking up imp disc for the 2 min shield wall. I wouldn't want to lose really anything other than focused rage, so thats probably going to be the one to go.

Kamui988
08-04-2009, 07:59 AM
I have no idea where to start thinking for the new spec/whatever else I need to do it keep up with others in 3.2 So any advice posted here would be greately appreciated to me and any other tanks lost in this new major patch.

Hit Me
08-04-2009, 10:53 AM
Im thinking about using this spec.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warrior=35020000230000000000000000000003010000000 00000000000000000053351225000010521330113321&glyph=031018040702&version=10192

It takes points out of cruelty to max out Shield Spec. It sounds good but I don't know how it would play out

I don't know if I could go without Gag Order. There's just too many times it comes in handy.

I'll probably drop Cruelty, but I may possibly drop Focused Rage instead. In depends on how much rage Shield Spec generates. If I find myself with an abundance of Rage, I'll put points back into cruelty and take some out of Focuses Rage. Those will probably be the two talents I tinker with though.

There will definitely be a little trial and error going on.

BuliwynT
08-04-2009, 11:30 AM
Focused rage is way more rage efficient than 3 points in shield spec. At least on a purely 1on1 encounter. Having 10 mobs on you? Well.. shield spec. might prove more worthy then, but rage will be abundant anyways.

Dubzil
08-04-2009, 11:32 AM
Focused rage is way more rage efficient than 3 points in shield spec. At least on a purely 1on1 encounter. Having 10 mobs on you? Well.. shield spec. might prove more worthy then, but rage will be abundant anyways.


Well it depends, Right now you get hit and you get a full rage bar, you parry or dodge and you have nothing. So focused rage doesn't really help that much boss tanking, when you really need the rage is when you dodge or parry

gabbu
08-04-2009, 11:33 AM
I currently use a DW build without cruelty in it anyways, taking up imp disc for the 2 min shield wall. I wouldn't want to lose really anything other than focused rage, so thats probably going to be the one to go.

Point by point bases you can not justify dropping focused rage for Shield Spec unless all you do is massive AoE pulls (AKA heroics or trash tanking)

Dubzil
08-04-2009, 11:39 AM
Point by point bases you can not justify dropping focused rage for Shield Spec unless all you do is massive AoE pulls (AKA heroics or trash tanking)


^ what I said up there, the only situations where rage becomes an issue is when you dodge or parry, otherwise you get a 100% rage bar anyways

Hit Me
08-04-2009, 12:49 PM
Point by point bases you can not justify dropping focused rage for Shield Spec unless all you do is massive AoE pulls (AKA heroics or trash tanking) So what is the math behind it? How many dodges or parries would you need in what timeframe before the rage on avoidance from shield specialization outweighs the rage you save on your abilities by speccing focus rage?

DrDemon6661
08-04-2009, 01:08 PM
I can see with the patch that Prot tanking is more moving to an AOE aggro build (For Dumping Adds), Which I'm comfortable with, I love it! Question is this:

1. Will the aggro tables still hold true after Reckoning Procs (Being one of the Few that use it currently, I suppose) on multiple adds?

2. Taking into affect that SB took a 30% slide, Will aggro taunt be effective between classes?

3. Anyone have the number crunch for Aggro % from the PTR for Prot Pallies?
(Just looking for a base value to gauge aggro control)

Kree
08-04-2009, 02:03 PM
Gonna try something like this for tps :

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warrior=35020000230000000000000000000003000000000 00000000000000000053351225000012521230113321&glyph=030626040703&version=10192

Gumurak
08-04-2009, 02:09 PM
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warrior=35020000230000000000000000000003000000000 00000000000000000053351225000012521230113321&glyph=102218070203&version=10192 (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warrior=35020000230000000000000000000003000000000 00000000000000000053351225000012521230113321&glyph=102218070203&version=10192)

This is the spec was I was running at the beginign of the expansion. It worked well for me. I expect it to improve with the changes it's made.

Loosing 1 point in focused rage means nothing when your mitigation is giving you rage anyways. Exspecially if glyphed for the 10 rage to HS.

The first thing I would drop would be the blocking glyph. being the shield block value is now on deminishing returns and removed from SS all together. it is actually not generating any additional threat or mitigation. Exspecially for mobs that hit in the range of 17-25k on average.

I'm still tossing around the HS glyphe. But then agian i carry extra glyphs with me to change for specific fights. They essentially have become the new scrolls :) LOL.

Essentially they took away deveestate as our main rotation from BC and gave us SS and SBV. Then Ulduar came out and SBV and BR became less valuable due to the sheer damage people were taking. Therefore specs were adjusted accordingly for pure mitigation at the cost of threat. Well now we have no choice. They essentially saw what happened in pvp with SBV and the fact that warrior threat suffers emmensly compaired to other tanking classes.

So they went backwards and gave us devastate back into our rotation. The objective here is to keep your mitigation up high and earn rage for doing so. Without having the dps of a rogue. But not low enough to not generate generalized threat. Unfortunantly I seen this coming the minute they tried to push devastate off the table. The moment has arrived where they said. "Oh shit, this isn't going to work. Full reverse! Aye aye captain! FULL REVERSE!"

Dragaan
08-04-2009, 03:50 PM
Well it depends, Right now you get hit and you get a full rage bar, you parry or dodge and you have nothing. So focused rage doesn't really help that much boss tanking, when you really need the rage is when you dodge or parry

So you'd rather have 5rage on avoidance on fight with 1 mob vs. 3 rage off every single ability you use (including the ability you spam like a madman)? I'm pretty sure it's gonna be a loss in most of those situations, but I guess I'm going to have to take 5/5 shield spec just cause it gives a tiny bit if extra mitigation... I really wish we didn't have to spend 2 talent points for the 2min shield wall. :(

Gumurak
08-04-2009, 04:02 PM
Dragaan, you really wont need to with the current state of tanks in 3.2. The glyph should be plenty for you. Although a 2 min shield wall is nice, it's not a requirement. or at least I've managed to survive without it. But then agian the healers I run with are very good. And after 3 years we know each other pretty well :)

Dubzil
08-04-2009, 04:09 PM
So you'd rather have 5rage on avoidance on fight with 1 mob vs. 3 rage off every single ability you use (including the ability you spam like a madman)? I'm pretty sure it's gonna be a loss in most of those situations, but I guess I'm going to have to take 5/5 shield spec just cause it gives a tiny bit if extra mitigation... I really wish we didn't have to spend 2 talent points for the 2min shield wall. :(


Its a hard call.

With around 70% block + dodge + parry and a boss with 2 sec swing timer you'll be averaging about 100 rage per minute from this talent.

I'm not too sure how to calculate additional rage from focused rage since heroic strike is off the GCD. since other abilities are on 1.5sec GCD i'll say 1 ability per second, so you'll save yourself 180 rage a minute with focused rage.

So its probably a bad trade off in that you won't be able to use HS as often without rage starving yourself, reducing your TPS. But those times you dodge/parry an attack and sit at 0 rage you're losing quite a bit more TPS because you aren't getting your shield slams/revenges etc off.

I'm not sure, I will tell you its very unlikely I will be taking it out of gag order, 10% damage to shield slam is too good. Also none of you are using an imp disc build for 2 min shield wall??

I don't see much else I would take points out of for the 5 rage, may have to stick to 2 rage on block/dodge/parry.

Gumurak
08-04-2009, 04:33 PM
I am running the improved disc. I have been testing it in ulduar on a personal level for the past week. It more boils down to playstyle. The mitigation it provides is by far the highest out there. But it requires some pretty extreme balancing of cooldown usage.

It also depends on who you run with, like i said i run the same 10 man with the same people I've raided with for 3 years. So we have a particular style that works for us.

Opinions:

I'd never take it out of gag order for the simple fact that most gimick fights such as Iron Council. Which makes this almost an imparitive. However with the GCD taken off heroic. It begs to take both Shield Specialization and Focused rage to some degree followed by an HS glyph. Considering how much devistate has been buffed. And the changes to rage on dodge block or parry.

The build I posted above is the attempt to keep rage high, very high. For the HS spam alone. You'll take a bit of a wallop every now and then. But probably not as much as you missing a mitigation CD on the previous dw standard.

The fact that they took SB and SS off of SBV makes our threatgen an entirely new animal. We have to look at this in the means of our threat gen more than anything else. The current recommendation is high effective health. lots of it. As threat will be more important for the new raids. Due to adds and the fact that you will not have time to ask dps to wait. It's got to be now now now, kill kill kill.

So what have we learned?

Devistate has been buffed.

SS/SB has been removed from the values of SBV

SBV has been doubled and primarily turned into a mitigation stat

Threat has been reduced on a generalized scale due to the lowering of SS/SB from above mentioned

Devistate and HS have been once agian band aided to warrior threat in attempt to not make them worthless.

SBV now has deminishing returns, therefore stacking it is worthless.

Block has returned as a decent form of mitigation for the rage alone.

End result as read in plain english......

Welcome back to BC with higher damage, more block required, SB always on cooldown, devistate doesn't have herpies anymore. So you no longer need to avoid it. Warriors with insane full rage bars all the time = the norm and not = wtf is this tank doing.

Thedom
08-04-2009, 04:58 PM
To me (thanks vene!) it seems that its best to either go all the way with buffing shield wall (glyph and talent) or not. The middle road is kinda meh if you do one but not the other.

Also has anyone tried using something like rawr to see what changing talents around does to predicted damage with the new changes?

gom
08-04-2009, 06:07 PM
Hard to say. In terms of aggro I would drop cruelty for sure since it's RNG based. 2% more or less crit...
So you are left with these options:




-1 Point in improved Revenge = -10% Damage from Revenge -> Actually I think if you leave this completely out, revenge does less aggro then devestate could that be true in 3.2?
-1 Point in Deep Wounds = you lose 16% bleeding Damage.
-1 Point in Focused Rage -> +1 Rage cost on all your off. stuff.
-1 Point in Shield Specialisation -> only 80% chance to generate the (5-1) Rage / -1% Blocking.

So what hurts you the least?

-> I think if you dont have a 100% chance to generate rage on avoidance then there is no point to go for that and you could just keep your specc which you have atm.

-> 10% less damage is also huge I think. in a 7-8min Boss fight I hit revenge like 30-40 times. 40 times -10% revenge damage is quite a lot aggro compared to -1 point in deep wounds.

so these two drop out also. I don't know whether to go for +1 rage on off. stuff or -16% less bleeding Damage.

I think the bleeding damage hurts less. Since its also RNG based. And atm my bleeding damage on MT tanking is about 5-9% in max. EH ulduar gear. Not that much.

So I guess this will be my specc:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warrior=35020000230000000000000000000003000000000 00000000000000000053351125000012521330113321&glyph=032005040703&version=10192#

My survival specc is pretty much unchanged:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warrior=35020000230000000000000000000003010000000 00000000000000000053351225000010521330113321&glyph=031018040702&version=10192#

You can spend the 5 points in imp. Demo Shout otherwise if you have a Paladin with vindication in your raid.

Dragaan
08-04-2009, 06:44 PM
Dragaan, you really wont need to with the current state of tanks in 3.2. The glyph should be plenty for you. Although a 2 min shield wall is nice, it's not a requirement. or at least I've managed to survive without it. But then agian the healers I run with are very good. And after 3 years we know each other pretty well :)

I'm still going to be tanking Algalon. I usually eat every other big bang and I will need that 2min shield wall. But, you're right, I don't NEED it anywhere else. It would still be nice to have tho.....

Petninja
08-04-2009, 06:55 PM
Well, assuming you have a fast weapon and are HSing whenever you can and using all GCDs you should be saving about 12 rage with focused rage for every boss swing. If he hits your bar will go up and if he misses nothing happens. If you didn't have focused rage you'd not save that 12 rage and when the boss hit you you'd get rage as normal but if he missed (65% of the time? I'm being generous) you'd get 5 of it back. Focused Rage is worth more than shield spec still for rage gen on bosses clearly. I suspect it will take at least 3 mobs to even the two talents out. This is just napkin math though while I wait for my server to let me in.

Strongbow
08-04-2009, 11:59 PM
I tink I will test this:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warrior=35002000230000000000000000000003000000000 00000000000000000053351225000012521030113321&glyph=031922070403&version=10192 (http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?warrior=35002000230000000000000000000003000000000 00000000000000000053351225000012521030113321&glyph=031922070403&version=10192)

Question, today I see that the Glyph of Shieldwall now only reduces the Damage Taken by 40% - I thought former it was 50% - or am I wrong??

gabbu
08-05-2009, 04:33 AM
Question, today I see that the Glyph of Shieldwall now only reduces the Damage Taken by 40% - I thought former it was 50% - or am I wrong??

Glyph was always 40% you probably just noticed it.

This is the spec I ended up going with (mainly because I have to have improved disciplines for various reasons). In ulduar last night I hardly had any rages issue boss tanking, add tanking did not matter so I could easily spam cleaver while doing adds. Thus I might actually drop out of deep wounds completely, I will have to compare my tanking parses from few weeks before 3.2 to few weeks inot 3.2 to decide.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=1&tal=3502000021000000000000000000000300000000000000 000000000000053351125000212521330113321)

Just my 2 cents

Oh btw, the damage buffs to prot are sweet :P, with mitigation spec and both stam trinkets I was easily doing 2k DPS last night Yayyyyyy

Qwolzor
08-05-2009, 05:08 AM
I don't understand how one would specc into 2/5 cruelty but not take Gag Order, or even consider that, but whatever.

Many of you propably over-gear heroic instances, naxx10 and propably naxx25 by ridicioulus amounts resulting in crappy threat. If this is the case and you want to make your life easier taking a deep wounds build and investing the 2 spare points into 4/5 block is a viable option in that scenario.

Should also help on Thorims Arena if you are rage-starved like I am and have someone else to apply imp. Demo shout and want to beat hard mode reliably.

Other than that: 3.2 isn't changing much for warriors except the option described above is more viable then before.