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Somnus
08-03-2009, 12:53 AM
Ok, so I have finally gotten to the point where I can run most heroics, and just started doing 10/25 man Naxx. Problem is that something just doesn't just right. I can't seem to hold aggro that well, even though I am told I have a good build for it. I am wanting opinions on my build mainly, but would like all the info I can get to in way of gear, or whatever else you might be able to throw at me. I am trying to work out a build that works well in raids, especially late on in Ulduar 10/25 man.

Here is my armory: The World of Warcraft Armory (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cho%27gall&n=Somnus)

And the leggings for I got 2 days ago aren't showing up on the armory for some reason. They are the Bolstered Legplates out of H VH, with a 8 dodge/12 stam gem, and Frosthide Leg Armor added to them. I have 28.7k health unbuffed at this point.

I appreciate any and all help you can give, thanks!

Zivh
08-03-2009, 01:17 AM
I would recommend switching to a Frost spec until you are fully epic geared and in mostly 200/213s. Frost is less gear dependent than Blood and this may be why you are having some trouble with threat.

Check the Guides section for some really good Frost builds and their rotations.

As far as gear goes...get a 40 stam enchant for your bracers, and defense enchant for your cloak, and swap out that Defense/stam gem on your belt for a Hit/Stam since you are under the hit cap and over the defense cap. You may also want to replace that Dodge/Stam in your Legs with an Expertise/Stam to help getting that low expertise rating up. Look for an axe also to really maximize your expertise, being an Orc and all.

If you have questions about the Frost spec or have trouble finding one just reply and ill rummage one up for you :)

Somnus
08-03-2009, 01:52 AM
Ok, and 1 more question. I am still kind of new to the tanking scene, but am loving it so far, just not sure on all the details. For one, I know the def cap is 540, but what exactly is the hit cap? And are there any other caps I might need to work on?

Zivh
08-03-2009, 03:12 AM
Hit soft cap is 8%, or about 263 Hit rating. Expertise soft cap is 26 points, not sure the rating value.

Priorities should be Def->Hit->Expertise.

bashef
08-03-2009, 03:53 AM
Expertise soft cap is 26 - that's the point where your attacks cannot be dodged, but they can be parried. Hard cap is in the 50s... I don't remember off the top of my head, but suffice it to say you won't get there without really trying for it.

It's hard to weigh up the value of defense versus hit once you're above the minimum out of context - as many people on these forums have laboured, 540 is absolutely not a cap it's a minimum. It's only slightly worse than pure dodge for avoidance above this minimum. Hit is a threat stat on the other hand, so it's difficult to say that one is better than the other (although of course you should make sure you're at 540 defense before you worry about your threat). Also, don't worry about capping your hit - very few tanks will intentionally hit cap themselves, it's simply not necessary, and it's perfectly possible to hold aggro even significantly below the cap (although I'd advise against it because it also affects your taunt).

I would also question the priority of threat stats - for blood tanks, expertise is almost twice as valuable as hit (only rune strike can't be dodged or parried) since you're reducing both dodges and parries with a single stat. For frost tanks the situation is less clear cut, since howling blast, icy touch, and frost strike are also not affected by expertise, but I would still put them on equal footing since parries or dodges on your blood strikes will stop you converting blood runes to death runes (fewer obliterates, your staple attack) and dodged/parried obliterates will ruin your threat if you ignore expertise. Since there are few cases where you need to make the choice between one or the other, however, their relative merits is not something to overly concern yourself with.

My feeling is that if you're struggling for threat, it's either because your dps is far better geared than you (a Naxx 10 geared tank won't hold aggro of a dps doing 5k) your spec isn't quite right (not the case here for your blood spec at least) or your rotation is off. If you want help with a rotation for either the blood spec or your new frost one, shout and I or someone else on these boards will be able to help.

Somnus
08-03-2009, 10:40 AM
Thanks for all the help you guys, just curious about something. I heard that blood spec is THE tanking spec for 10/25 man ULD and all, and I was wondering what your thoughts were on this.

Edgewalker
08-03-2009, 10:42 AM
Thanks for all the help you guys, just curious about something. I heard that blood spec is THE tanking spec for 10/25 man ULD and all, and I was wondering what your thoughts were on this.

It's the highest single target threat with good aoe threat, has the best cooldowns, and a very simple rotation.

Satorri
08-03-2009, 10:51 AM
Blood is great fun, strong active survival tools. The latter has made it very popular as the survival tank, paired with the fact that it is best supported and best capable of the trees for stacking health all day long.

Personally, I still get better damage/threat with Frost, though neither spec is being threatened by the group's threat.


To answer your original question though, DK's have a funny sort of scaling through leveling and into the endgame. We start with fantastic gear and relative ability when we're fresh out of the starting area and up to 70 we're way ahead of the other classes for performance next to our gear level (the class was balanced for play at 80). Once you hit 80 though you tend to be in a rocky little spot for a bit tanking. Basically, there are two threat elements when threat becomes challenging that limit your performance as a new 80:

1.) Experience tanking legitimately as a DK. Building experience with your spec of choice, whatever that spec may be, goes a very long way. The more you tank, and adjust your talents and gear, and play with your abilities, and learn little tricks, habits, and pacings, and the more you just play the class in the role, the better you become. It is in your best interest to find the spec you enjoy playing most, and really stick with it. Picking what is supposed to be "best" may very well just leave you enjoying it less.

2.) Rune Strike! Rune Strike becomes a very important threat tool, but it scales very noticeably with avoidance. When you first start off tanking your gear will be very weak on avoidance, and as that grows picking up epics you will see that threat start to take off.

A side item that will also make you feel weak on your threat is that you are starting tanking when there are a lot of people who are already geared beyond you doing the same content. They will be already able to put out very heavy threat that will test you until you start to catch up in gear level. There should be no shame in telling your 5-man group or pug raid that your gear is still a bit light and to be careful with their threat. It's not progression, and it's not even high intensity, unless they decide to pull threat and die. Make friends with your rogues and hunters, they can help you out a lot in padding your threat where you need it.

Novalok
08-03-2009, 11:54 AM
As other posters have said. * and i have learned from experience*

Blood taking is very gear defendant. I was Tanking for my guild having problems with threat due to i had ~170ish Hit rating and 8 Expertise. Now that i am Just under hitcap *i traded 3 points under hitcap so i could get 3 expertise* and getting near expertise cap. My threat has skyrocketed to the point that i can steal from out MT if i try.

Check your recount and see how many times you miss while blood tanking. Its insane sir.

Hades
08-04-2009, 04:17 AM
Frost spec = No threat issues EVER. I've tried to tank in blood spec, and ohmigosh it's horrible in fresh-80 gear which proves the gear dependance beyond a shadow of a doubt. But honestly, if you're having threat issues, Frost is the spec of choice. I have a couple of Ulduar 10 geared friends that DPS with my guild pretty often, and they don't even touch my threat unless they start hitting mobs I'm not targeting. If you think it'll help your issues, and it's a play style you can get into, feel free to jack my build. That's about the ONLY thing that hasn't changed since armory last updated. I think... lol. Blizz is seriously slackin' on the updates.