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Stephanius
07-31-2009, 06:33 AM
On my guild forums, as part of a discussion regarind loot priorities, there is a discussion going regarding druid's use of weapons. Not having a level 80 druid myself, I am a bit unsure of the actual mechanics. The discussion was sparked by a hunter being unhappy about not being allowed to roll on Twisted Visage against a feral druid because of our "Weapon>Trinket" convention (Of course the staff is perfectly suitable for hunters, that is the shared loot design and not my question. =]).

Overall consensus in my guild is that a weapon used as weapon is more important/beneficial and higher priority than a weapon used as trinket. Example: melee class uses melee weapon as 'weapon', ranged weapon as 'trinket' for the bonus equip stats.
A minority agrees with "weapon>trinket", but wants to specifically exclude druids from this rule since 'they don't hit things with the weapon'.

We have gone into patch 3.0.8 changes (DPS being converted to feral attack power and druids able to use polearms) and have shown that weapon-FAP for druids is a major factor for their damage output.

If I do understand correctly, druids attack speed is dictated by their form (2.5s bear, 1.0s cat). It gets hazy for me with their base 'paw' damage. I see the value 58.4 in the DPS to FAP formula, so that might be the base paw damage valid for level 80.

I found the following reference, but this is either incomplete of vague.
Feral attack power - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Feral_attack_power)
Predatory Strikes - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Predatory_Strikes)
Druid ability scalability - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft (http://www.wowwiki.com/Druid_Ability_Scalability)

Can anyone help me out with the formula for feral druid attacks?
Is the benefit that a druid has from their weapon today significantly lower than what ye olde plate melee dps gets?

geros
07-31-2009, 08:23 AM
I'd be curious why you've come to the conclusion that FAP is the driver for cat dps weapon upgrades. The Feral By Night simulation: FeralbyNight (Cat & Bear simulation tool) - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t49702-feralbynight_cat_bear_simulation_tool/) indicates that the stat ranking is ArP > agil > FAP. Here's the ranking of usable 2h'ers for cats according to FbN: Items - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?items&filter=sl=17;minle=200;ub=11;cr=123;crs=3;crv=0;gm =3;gb=1;wt=114:21:20:119:117:103:96:97:77;wtv=1.96 :1.64:1.55:1.48:1.48:1.39:1.32:0.78:0.65)

geros
07-31-2009, 08:36 AM
I also did some basic changes in rawr if I went from twisted visage down to journey's end and down to black ice. The hunter model in rawr does not appear to be based in reality, so I can't trust numbers produced from it (it was claiming a hunter in my guild fully raid buffed would do 2.6k dps in the ideal rotation).

twisted - 5877

journey's - 5795 1.41% dps increase to twisted
black ice - 5696 3.18% dps increase to twisted

The hunter rankings were something like 2673, 2627, 2626. A 1.75% dps upgrade. I don't trust those numbers at all though. I could probably tool around with a hunter spreadsheet from EJ if I was very industrious.

I think one of the problems you might encounter is that hit is lower on the stat priority list for cats than other classes. A hunter that can cap on TV is going to see a much bigger upgrade than a cat with a respectable 2h'er.

Ukk
07-31-2009, 09:09 AM
Not sure what formula you are looking for, the answer to your second question is "no": Cats get a similar benefit as plate dps from weapon dps. Only difference is that the weapon's dps is converted to feral attack power to make it work with the 1-second swing timer. Many of the bread and butter special attacks use "base damage" which is derived using the weapon's dps converted to feral attack power - shred and mangle, for example. The inherent dps of a staff/polearm affects these special attacks, as well as the white attacks.

Lga45
07-31-2009, 10:14 AM
Druids "not hitting things with their weapon" is silly. In all guilds I've been in, we've used the same rule as you're suggesting; weapons>trinket. Or, to put it another way, melee weapons go to melee first; ranged weapons go to ranged first. It would be the same if a rogue was allowed to roll on a ranged weapon at the same time as a hunter, yet nobody would deny that's selfishness. The hunter, as a ranged class, should step aside until melee classes have their weapons. Calculating the stats in rawr is not necessary either; our weapon is our weapon, just like it is for any other class. Trying to minimize its usage or effectiveness, in order to allow a hunter to roll, is a severe perversion of logic!

geros
07-31-2009, 11:49 AM
Logic dictates that you should determine the relative increase of DPS for a feral druid and a hunter based on the upgrade to TV. As it turns out, I think Twisted Visage is one of the few scenarios where a stat stick upgrade for a hunter is roughly equivalent to a melee weapon upgrade. This is because TV has a buttload of hit on it.

I went and found me a hunter spreadsheet on EJ: WotLK DPS spreadsheet - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f74/t30710-wotlk_dps_spreadsheet/) and it seemed to be about a 1.3% dps increase from Black Ice. 7025.32 to 7118.71. It's all variable on where someone is on the hit cap and what items they can change once this is equipped as well. It's just that my quick and dirty research leads me to believe it's a pretty significant upgrade for both camps, regardless of it's use of a stat stick.

Stephanius
07-31-2009, 11:51 AM
Thanks for the replies already guys.
For me it makes no difference if we are talking about a druid or some other melee's weapon.
I am just looking for as concrete facts as I can get.

I don't really want to get into comparing dps gains per class, next I would need to compare which player puts out more dps.
To avoid anything silly, I am just looking for confirmation that weapon>trinket or however you want to put it does - generally - make sense, druids included.

Genova
07-31-2009, 12:49 PM
Druids now get their stats from the DPS of the weapon, you dont see the "feral attack power" because your not a druid, but this "feral attack power" is taken from the DPS of the weapon so the weapon a druid uses is for more than just extra stats like stam, str and agility.

For hunters I would treat it as "trinket". For Druids treat it as the actual weapon.

Lachesis
08-07-2009, 10:29 PM
Feral paw dps is directly proportional to the dps of the weapon (and the druid's overall AP, ArP, etc).
Hunter dps is directly proportional to the dps of their bow or gun (and other stats on their gear, once again.)
Therefore, the druid is using everything that the staff provides, while the hunter is using everything but the weapon's damage. The druid gets more use from it, the druid should get the item. The same goes for rogues and warriors on ranged weapons. they're using most of the stats, sure, but not all of them. Such items should be given to hunters first. Else why would there have been such an uproar when Thoridal, Star's Fury was given to a rogue over a hunter (i forget the name of the guild, this happened pre-3.0 so it's been a while, but the QQ thread on the wow forums reached the post cap quickly.)

So, basically posting to say, most of the replies are correct: weapon > stat stick.

Oratory
08-15-2009, 03:44 PM
Druids gain just as much as other classes going from a 150 DPS weapon to a 170 DPS weapon. The difference is that it's displayed differently on their character sheet: 1 DPS = 14 AP. Other classes tend to look at attack power and convert it to how much additional weapon DPS it gives: 14 AP = 1 DPS.

Keep in mind weapon speed does not matter in the least for druids; whereas it does for other melee classes that have attacks that rely directly on weapon damage.