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Kurtosis
07-27-2009, 02:15 AM
I've just been promoted to co-GM of a new guild that didn't quite get off the ground, and am now using everything I've learned on TS, as well as irl, to relaunch it.

The guild's objective is to develop one or two core 10 man raiding teams, get all 10 mans through Uld 10 on farm, master all the content, then use those teams to form the backbone of a 25 man raiding team. I want a loot system that is transparent, perceived as both fair and effective, and incentivizes people to prioritize the success of raid progression over their own gear.

I have read many good things about EPGP and have already chosen this as the guild's new loot system (previously none was used):

1. Simple, open, transparent
2. Removes humans from loot distribution system, reducing drama potential
3. Better aligns the incentives of individual raiders with the objectives of the guild than other system (I'm a believer in Charlie Munger's take on the power of incentives (http://www.loschmanagement.com/Berkshire%20Hathaway/Charlie%20munger/The%20Psychology%20of%20Human%20Misjudgement.htm))
4. Addons, web integration.
5. etc.

However, I have yet to see any major criticism of EPGP, and am a bit worried something I don't know about is gonna bite me in the butt as soon as we start regular raiding again. So, what are the problems, if any, that accompany EPGP? I'd like to know and have workarounds in place.

Thanks!

Vorla
07-27-2009, 02:45 AM
My guild has been using it for quite a while, and I think it works like a charm. Easily has all the good stuff about a loot distribution system and none of the bad stuff.

We've been running loot council in tenmans and EPGP in 25 man, and with some difficulties getting 25 mans on the road the system has seen limited use, but whenever we did use it, there has been no margin for QQ whatsoever because it's so obvious - more EP, higher PR, more gear, more GP, lower PR. A beatiful cycle.

But I share your concerns (I actually thought about this exact question "is there really no downsides?" about an hour ago >_>), and the only noticable problem has been people not needing loot for a long while, getting PR's of something silly like 4-5 until that BiS weapon dropped in Ulduar and the rating got tanked down to 2-3 again, still being higher than a lot of people. People might ditch certain boss fights/raids because of Z, cause "if X drops, Z is gonna get it anyway since it's the only piece Z is after" cause, again, it's so obvious. I think you're looking at a deeper problem than EPGP in this case, though, since Z obviously has attended lots of raids with no loot grabs, and if you want the loot just like Z, you should be prepared to do the same. This might drive people to PuG stuff like Kel'Thuzad or Maly-25 instead of running with the guild, because the BiS stuff that drops there generally has a high associated GP cost (I tanked my rating properly on The Turning Tide, main hand weapons are well expensive and would not have minded if it had dropped in a random PuG and went to me instead >_>). However, then they need to face random rolls instead of the certainty of having a high PR, unless they happen to be on a realm where reserving gear is common.

In conclusion, it's the best loot distro system I've seen in use, and trumps pretty much everything I've read about. Everyone needs an addon, but with the amount that we already run, one more isn't that big of a deal. It's even easy to maintain (I have had a few catastrophic failures (on the scope of adding the 30 minute bonus every 5 seconds for everyone in the raid. In the middle of loot distribution. Gosh golly was it fun pressing "UNDO" a thousand times) but everything can be undone and redone) as a raid leader.

kemikalkadet
07-27-2009, 03:21 AM
Everyone needs an addon, but with the amount that we already run, one more isn't that big of a deal.

Not true, only the officers that manage the system need to use the addon. If guild members want to see how many points they have on the fly they can use it to check, but it's not necessary. The points and rankings can be hosted on the net and so long as it's updated regularly, guildies can check their points there.

Here's the site for hosting your guilds points: EPGPWeb (http://www.epgpweb.com/)

Vorla
07-27-2009, 04:17 AM
Well sure, that was a modified truth. I'd never as a guild member run a raid without having the EPGP popup window so I can click "pass" on everything, speeding the process up however. While sorting loot I appreciate when I don't have to wait the for the timout to assign the loot - the people not running the addon might be comparing the piece and haven't whispered yet, or could be passing. With the addon, I'd know when they pass at least. Techincally, I could be doing whispers, but it's just so damn tedious.:D

So, to experience all the good stuff about EPGP and it's very expedient loot sorting - everyone needs an addon. For running EPGP at all, only the lootmaster does.

Warwench
07-27-2009, 04:22 AM
The only real problems I have encountered with EPG are the following.

* You can really only use it for 10 OR 25 man raiding, not both. If you use it for multiple types of raiding, you start seeing PR's getting really out of whack as some people are getting more "seat time" than others.

* You really need to make sure you are using the right values for EP, GP and decay. I would suggest going with the "stock" or default values until you really understand the math behind it all.

Thats about it, the first point is the important one.. we only use EPGP for our 25 man progression, 10 mans, or anything else is done via /roll or suicide kings.

Bezier
07-27-2009, 04:32 AM
"2. Removes humans from loot distribution system, reducing drama potential"

The form we use generates a list that the lootmaster is presented with, and can choose to act on. It serves as a guide and backing for a decision, but still requires him to click through the decision.

Our guild currently uses EPGP and prefers it over other DKP systems we've used in the past. It definitely seems to minimize the downsides of various other point systems.

I've encountered 2 problems with the system so far:

1. Upon implementation, already geared raiders have a strong advantage since they will likely not be rolling on items. A fresh raider that was busting his ass to catch up may get his ration nuked collecting gear that everyone else would just pass on anyway.

2. We have alt's who are linked to the main raider's score, so that 1 number set represents all his characters. This can allow a well geared raider to run a lower level raid with an alt and collect gear ahead of another player's main.

Considdering that ultimately, a loot master can make the final decison, you can minimize these pitfalls with a guild policy that adresses them specificly. (i.e. Mains always take precedence, 2x the cost for alts, 1/2 price if no one else is rolling on the item, etc etc)

kemikalkadet (http://www.tankspot.com/forums/members/kemikalkadet.html) is correct: you don't need the addon to participate, but it certainly keeps things running smoothly if everyone does. When everyone has the addon installed, its second only to the stock blizzard roll frame.


Reccomendations:

Playing with the starting EP/GP values for raiders will give you very different results on early raiding for a character. A 0 start will give early raiders an easy shot on their first few pieces of gear, but they will fluxuate more drasticly in standing early on. A higher start value for both will smooth out the flux and prioritize long term effort. Setting a 0/x EP/GP, (with being not 0), will set an "entry fee" for new raiders before they start becoming eligable.

Lastly, as unpopular as weekly decay is, it helps keep the active raiders in an overall better gear position

Salloman
07-29-2009, 10:41 AM
We have been using EPGP for better part of a year and we really havent had any unsolvable issues. While some have pointed out a few, most of those issues can really be overcome by manipulating the system to work with your guild culture. ie.. the 10 mans and 25 mans issue, we have changed the 10 man GP values to a set amount(10-50), minimizing gaps in PR. Overall, Decay is a must, it pretty much solves most of the problems stated with having geared toons and alts.

Advice: look at the add-on EPGPLOOTMASTER. allows a kind of loot council and additional transparency. you can adapt you loot system with that addon for any kind of guild make up or special raid situation.

One issue we did have is with the recent summer fallout is dealing with pugging raids. EPGP is not Pug friendly for obvious reasons. I have heard of people using different methods to solve this. Our solution which worked really well was using a roll system for loot, having only people who need/use the item roll. If a pug wins, they get the item, but if a guildie wins then we use our EPGP to distribute the loot. Kind of a comprimize.

Really the point is all problems you could run into is easily solvable by changing the system(ep or GP amounts). EPGP really has an amazing amount of flexiblity depending on how you want to run the system. I think all EPGP guilds have a slightly different system(ep/gp amounts and decay) from each other while having the same great result. Members love it and it has a great "fair" and strategic factor.

FeeliksReturns
08-01-2009, 08:13 PM
Hi guys,

I recently have taken our guild to using EP/GP, and I have three questions.

FYR Context-- raiding 3 nights a week, with a small core of 35 raiders or so. I wish to give EP for: punctuality, boss kills, boss wipes (up to 75% of boss's value), start-to-finish bonus, sitting out, and contributing something greatly needed (e.g. resist pots).

Question One-- How does one determine appropriate values for MinEP, BaseGP, and %decay? Is this a subjective thing? Or does it not really matter since it's all ratio based anyways?

Question Two-- What does "Extras" mean?

Question Three-- How do I determine how much EP should be given for each of the criteria listed above?

Thanks all for your help :)

Lizana
08-01-2009, 09:19 PM
The problem i have with EPGP is it makes people pass minor upgrades so they can horde up for what they view as a better upgrade. This can lead to gear getting sharded that would have improved raid performance. Also it does not lend it self to drops like mounts and special vanity drops

DeviousOne
08-01-2009, 09:40 PM
Most vanity/mount drops usually go to the most dedicated members of the guild anyway.

Lizana
08-01-2009, 11:54 PM
Most vanity/mount drops usually go to the most dedicated members of the guild anyway.

Only if you have that rule for your loot system

Kurtosis
08-06-2009, 07:31 PM
The problem i have with EPGP is it makes people pass minor upgrades so they can horde up for what they view as a better upgrade. This can lead to gear getting sharded that would have improved raid performance. Also it does not lend it self to drops like mounts and special vanity drops
I was under the impression that's one of the problems w/ DKP that EPGP was created to solve. Is that problem still as bad w/ EPGP as with DKP?

Lizana
08-06-2009, 07:51 PM
With a set based dkp you can set an offset/side/minor upgrade price that people can take with minimal impact on their chance at major upgrades. This is harder to do in EPGP without using multiple lists.

netlabs
05-04-2010, 09:12 PM
Slavithin here from The Legion of Honour on Darkmoon Faire EU.


we had some teething problems with 25 man raids, main ones....


Lack of attendance
New members winning loot on first tmie roll, rendering veterens unhappy
Not staying to the end of the raid.


To counter this we started useing EPGP after looking in to many other loot systems.


At the start i took it in to a random heroic with some guild officers to see it in action when the epic droped at the end. after that we ran it in a 10 man raid. although we did not use it for true ditribution we did use the scoreing that came with it to get a good idea of how the math and addon worked. again passed with flying colours.

Finaly we anounced the loot system to the guild as primary loot system in 25 man raids ONLY.

Before we started looting under the laws of the addon we also anouced a breaking in period of 3 weeks as we did find ONE floor with the system. If you introduce this system to a raid guild and start useing it as sooon as you have learnt it this will cause unfare GP and PR.

To counter this, for the first 3 weeks i used the addon in all the 25 man raids to gather information and have the guild learn the system. During this time all raid members were awarded EP for attendance but NOT given GP for loot, instead for the first 3 weeks we carried on with /roll.

Doing this now gave us a nice PR list for the 3 weeks


The following week we started looting under EPGP. It was a mess as we used /roll for mainspec, then awarded the loot to the top PR member. This slowed the raid as i am the Main Tank and the loot master. Mid raid we found EPGPlootmaster and had the entire raid install it. Now when the raid leader clicked on loot raiders only need click Mainspec / Offspec /Pass (from a popup window much like when when loot is set to "group loot") and the data is sent to the raid leader anonomously.
The highest PR of the Mainspec choice was pushed to the top and awarded loot. issue solved.

Our Rules

Mainspec...We decided GP for loot that the addon came with was fine and fare.
Offspec.....we decided early on that Offspec loot was 100% free. This kept the system pure, and stoped raiders fear of spending on offspec items.
EP award system...As we had issues with attendance and then players staying we have this split in to 3 awards with a failsafe reward:


Attending the raid on time. 100 EP, awarded 8pm sharp: In a RL job, people who get to work "on time" start late. However if your early, you can prepair, then start work on time! We took this aproach with the guild....This helped start raids faster with more logging on early for invite.
Recuring. 75 EP, awarded every hour automaticly by the addon, starts at 8pm but does not award untill the end of the first hour. This encoraged peolpe to raid longer.
Raid End. 75 EP, this is given to all remaining raiders to compensate the possibility of the raid ending early and not gaining a full hour from the Recuring EP. Also if we lose enough to stop the raid early, raiders minus ones needing to leave get these points.
Failsafe. 100 EP, this is given to all available online if a raid can't happen. This might be because not enough online, key raid spots unable to be filled, and so on...

Now we have the system fully functional every 25 man raid, no complaints, we have now gone from a possible 1 raid night a week, up to 2 garenteed nights and a possible 3rd starting soon. This has also helped us gain more members and have a better faster raid.

we came accross one down side....PuG never added to EPGP and even if they were it would render them pointless at gaining loot. Due to this we have guild members use the addon as normal and PuG /roll, if the PuG /roll beets any guild roll shown on EPGPlootmaster the PuG wins, if any guild member out rolls the PuG we use the EPGP system as if the PuG do not exist.


Hope this helps you all
http://dmf-legion.wowstead.com/