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View Full Version : Rookie tank needs advice - Vig



JayM
07-20-2009, 06:51 PM
So I was OT on Kolo in 25Man...

I have been tanking for 6 months, and generally put my Vig on a high threat DPS'r like a lock. I screwed up and could not taunt the mid section off the MT in time and he died and wipe - that was my fault wrong body part targeted.

While running back to the boss i get a tell from a caster to put Vig on the other tank. I am pissed at myself already and don't respond well.

The MT in this case was a DK and on Omen we were separated by only a few hundred TPS. Shoudl I be putting Vig on the DK MT? Would this cause the DK MT to have issues getting back to the top in Omen?

Thanks for your help.

Thaak
07-20-2009, 08:26 PM
I'm not sure why you were unable to taunt off the MT, i'm guessing you had used your taunt previously on rubble, otherwise i have no idea why it wasn't available. We typically run 3 tanks in 25, so we have 2 who only worry about Kolo and 1 who just does rubble. Regardless of that don't forget you have mocking blow and challenging shout. But of which can be used to stopgap a misses taunt. Also don't forget you can change your vigilance target during combat.

On a side note, if you were OTing(i.e. not getting hit to generate rage) it seems VERY odd to me that you were almost with the MT on threat. It sounds to me as if he may have some TPS issues, unless of course you meant that you were way below him on total threat, but seeming maintaining the same TPS. Some tanks get lazy when they get a huge lead and slow down their threat gen. On Kolo though, unless you are going for the achievement where you don't break the arms, your DPS will spend a decent amount of time off the body, so there shouldn't be aggro issues. Vigilance will also reduce the MTs incoming damage by 3%, so thats helpful as well.

EDIT:
Apparently i missed the part where you stated you had the wrong part targeted. You could make a macro to prevent that.

/assist tanksname
/cast taunt

That will put you on his target and then taunt. Assuming he in on the correct target it will work.

uglybbtoo
07-20-2009, 08:54 PM
I got the whole miss target bit but I am with Thaak why didn't you mocking blow this can't be the first taunt resist or miss you ever had and you have to be in melee range or else BIG BANG coming to a place near you?

Petninja
07-20-2009, 09:24 PM
It sounds like you just made a mistake, that having been said, so long as you don't pull agro from the DK with Vig on him there shouldn't be a problem. When he taunts off you his threat goes right up to where yours is anyway (at least I think).

Skaggi
07-20-2009, 10:18 PM
Hi there!

Don't put vigilance on another tank unless you need the taunt-reset feature (strictly speaking Sarth 3d and nothing else). Almost always there'll be another DR in place already (disc-priest, shammy, pallybuff, anything I can't remember right now) and so it is wasted threat reduction since that trigger-happy lock is thread capped now.

If you miss-taunt in some way, just use another one and you'll be golden as stated above.

And don't be to worked up because of one wipe... correct answer for wipe-winers is "Blizz invented dailies to counter the gold loss of this happening to us"... After all even tanks are human beeings and can mistakes sometimes... :D

Cheers!
Skaggi

P.S.: You might consider dropping your block trinket for something more down the avoidance / EH road.

Gumurak
07-21-2009, 12:34 AM
Simply put to answer your question. They wanted vigelance on the other tank for the damage reduction. Which just seems silly, I'd ask them straight up, but I bet this was thier reasoning for it. i've been asked to do it before for that exact reason. But it just screws with the balance of things.

JayM
07-21-2009, 04:57 AM
Thanks for the input guys.
In this case there was no time for the Mocking Blow(befreo MT went down).
The tank had two stacks of crunch armor on him, when he called for the taunt he received his thrird stack, I messed up missed my taunt, realized it, was switching targets, when he went down. I did hit Kolo with a Mocking blow got the aggro, popped SW and Laststand, and Laventhor's trinket, but one of our healers was dead, and a few of the dps, then I got hit for 21K back to back, and my laststand was expired, so i went down.
The caster who asked me to put vig on the MT was a pug, but a friend of the GM, and the GM is now upset with me for my responses to that caster, and has asked me to respec to arms and drop tanking all together. He says that my tanking is shit and I am putting folks at risk. Just last week he was saying my tanking was great.

I have tanked Freya, Thorum, the lady with the cats, Kolo, OS and nearly every Boss in Naxx without complaints, and I really don't want to be dps. I am a rookie yes, but my TPS on progression nights in 10man Ulduar is 4.2K TPS, Dodge is over 25%, and Block is over 23%, my wow-heroes score is 2244, I do not really want to start over as a dps warrior (of course Bliz has warriors crippled). I may need to change guilds to continue to tank.

What do you guys think, dump this guild to continue to tank?
THis is my first toon, so I really have been playing for only 6 months, the attitude of this GM and the way he be-littles people on Vent is enough to make me want to sell this toon and stop playing all together.

Thanks again for the feedback on the vig item.

orcstar
07-21-2009, 05:12 AM
Kologarn basically is a no-aggro fight so the drawback of putting vigilance on the other tank (him getting less threat) isn't there, so only the benefits of vigilance remain: damage reduction and taunt refresh.

So yes, the caster was right and putting vigilance on the other tank on that specific fight isn't bad. And the refresh on taunt might have saved you.

The other thing: don't have the other tank shout for a taunt: KNOW when the other tank gets 2 stack yourself and taunt Kologarn.

Hengist
07-21-2009, 05:18 AM
Why you change on 3rd stack anyway? Wouldn't be safer to taunt after 2nd?

Moridin Of Galakrond
07-21-2009, 05:18 AM
I'd say start looking for another guild in my opinion. If the GM gets upset after one bad night, the GM has got problems. I mean, our GM or RL will give people crap over vent for messing up, but in good fun. Nothing mean, usually makes the person want to do well, he also never yells at people, that doesn't work at all. That kinda attitude doesn't sound like something I would stick around for though, and if you love to tank, don't give it up for anybody else.

Now, I'm not sure what you said to the caster, but it never helps to fly off the handle at people in the game. Cause, to be honest, it doesnt' solve anything, people stick to their opinions in the game and it's usually pretty hard to change them.

Good Luck. Don't let the GM get you down.

JayM
07-21-2009, 05:35 AM
All I siad to the caster was - 'your smoking crack"

Nothing bad at all.

JayM
07-21-2009, 05:37 AM
Someone please explain the taunt reset feature.

I don't know what that is.

JayM
07-21-2009, 05:39 AM
Hengist

He called over vent for the swap on the 2nd debuff stack, and picked up the thrid stack directly after he called for the taunt.
Sorry for the confussion, we were swaping on 2 stacks

orcstar
07-21-2009, 05:39 AM
If you put vigilance on someone and that person gets hit, the cooldown on your taunt instantly finishes and you can use it again.

JayM
07-21-2009, 05:44 AM
Damn that is nice... I did not know that. Thanks
Maybe that is why the caster wanted it on the MT, so my Taunt CD woudl be refreshed? Who knows at this point.

JayM
07-21-2009, 05:54 AM
Moridin

This GM is, well... during this 25man for some reason i was his target... He was basically reading me th riot act thru the entire raid. I got a thick skin and all, but damn I got to hear enough of the crap at work, this is supposed to be a dang game where folks are to have fun. I am a tank first and foremost, and have no intention of respecing, I plan to stay a tank.
I thought that this is what progression was all about... yea so it took me a few trys to get the Council fight down... but once i got it, I put 17 interupts on that bastard in the back. BTW the videos on this site are great.. with one exception, the teams are way to overgeared... there is no way my group could heal through an overload, so if I follow the video we wipe.
Does anyone have good experience with a Guild that raids only a few nights a week? In the earlier time slots? My wife's toon will most likely come with me. She has a Druid healer (lvl80) and a Rogue(lvl80).

orcstar
07-21-2009, 05:58 AM
Damn that is nice... I did not know that. Thanks
Maybe that is why the caster wanted it on the MT, so my Taunt CD woudl be refreshed? Who knows at this point.
So you basically said to the caster that he was on "crack", while he might have known the mechanic of your own ability better then you did.:eek:

JayM
07-21-2009, 06:04 AM
Yes you are right, and I should apollogize, if I knew his name.
You woudl think that someone who is in a caster role just might say..."hey I have a warrior tank - try this" not just demand you do something...

Hindsight is 20/20, and I guess I am the ass in this event, well at least I can admit it.

Silveronfire
07-21-2009, 06:39 AM
props for admitting it. It can be hard to control the anger when a dps questions a tanking mechanic, but somtimes** they know whats up.

Karisita
07-21-2009, 07:09 AM
Ditto to the above, I'm sure he said what he said because of the taunt refresh, but the other thing to remember, is DPS is busy nuking the boss. They don't see your screen, they don't see the tanking mechanics at work. What this means is that the dps'er didn't know you'd mis-taunted, didn't know that you tab targeted to fix, and didn't know that the mocking blow came, it just came too late. Ultimately as a warrior, it's a rare case where the taunt refresh is really worth it because as stated, we have Taunt, Mocking Blow, and Challenging Shout. Now if I were you... I would have CS'ed while swapping targets the second I realized my taunt was miss targeted. Yeah I'm gonna pull everything in the area (never been to uld so I don't know if there's anything else to pull.) but it was my fault in the first place, and there's a chance the second OT can rip whatever's on me off, but without a MT we're screwed.

So in the end, while he may have been right in a way, it wouldn't have prevented the wipe. The wipe was due to mistake, human error, not a mechanical failure to tank. Your decisions were sound, your targeting was off. It's like saying "Well our F22's dropped a bomb on arizona instead of nevada when we were testing it's accuracy..." "You need to replace the bombs with nukes." "Yeah that's.. wait what? You're smoking crack!"

JayM
07-21-2009, 07:31 AM
Yea in Ulduar CS is not really an option.

The GM is our best Pally tank, and he had all the adds, if I CS i die instantly due to all the adds that hit hard, hitting me in the back. I can honestly say that I have never used CS in Ulduar, and most likely never will. My HP buffed is 36K and that is just not enough to handle the AOE from Kolo and the adds, no healer would be able to keep me up.
Yea it was a screw up on my part that caused the wipe. Cost everyone 8-10g for repairs. It looks as if the Vig onthe MT, may or may not have helped.

I am a clicker - I think I need to change to macros and key bindings, maybe that would make me better/faster. My threat generation is good on single targets. My 10 Man team MT is a Pally so we swap MT OT for situations.

How many of you still click play? Or has everyone moved to a macro/kinbind player?

I am looking for ways to improve.

luv2tank
07-21-2009, 07:37 AM
the adds on kologarn i like to set up w/ a cleave right away, it will stay there until a target is up, no need to target it yourself-then i shockwave them as soon as i see a red target and thunderclap/demo shout. Always works for me 10/25-and i never use vig at all-its actually gone from my spec tree b/c my GM is also a pally tank and prefers another buff over vig.

hola_adios
07-21-2009, 07:48 AM
Get those key binds going, no way you can clickyour way through Ulduar, you will be amazed at the change.

uglybbtoo
07-21-2009, 11:40 AM
Sorry I have to ask this because I think there is another mechanic of the fight you are not understanding or I am missing something.

Why did you have anything but the torso targetted if you were the second body tank and hence made a click error on taunt?

The pally GL was the add tank right and you and another tank were the body tanks correct?

JayM
07-21-2009, 11:47 AM
Gee uglybbtoo a freakin mistake! that theme was started inthe first post, yes I MADE A MISTAKE and had the incorrect bodypart targeted. The error was not the taunt, it was the target of the taunt.
I did not have the torso targeted when running in, I actually had the left arm, as when I was clicking to target it had swung in front of the body.

I KNOW that is my fault, and the purpose of this post was to find out more about Vig and who is should be on.

uglybbtoo
07-21-2009, 11:56 AM
LOL settle down ... no got it you were belting on left arm from start.

I was making sure you realized the hit boxes overlap you dont need to target anything other than the torso.

I have seen tanks think they have to tank the arm tab targetting betwen them all :-)

JayM
07-21-2009, 12:02 PM
ok yep i f'd up on this one big time

been there many times before, just f'd this one up

and now having checked the raid sign up's have been replaced by my GM

Guess I am really shopping for new server and guild now

Moridin Of Galakrond
07-21-2009, 12:10 PM
I strongly strongly strongly recommend immediately changing to key bindings. I use bartender4 as well, since I like my bars to be pretty small. It also makes key binding really easy.

Now, If you use WASD for movement, I have Q,E,R,T,F,G all keybound with main cooldown type skills. I have 1-5 with my normal rotation skills. I use shift modifier the most for things that I don't use as often, I have my taunts on Shift-1 and Shift-2. You may like taunt to be on a normal key without a modifier, but I like having to hit shift to do it, so it doesn't happen on accident.

Now, I do click some things. I'm a DK tank, so things like DnD where I have to pick where I'm going to drop it I click. Though, the more and more I get used to keybindings, the more things I want to keybind, because the difference in speed of use and ease of use is unbelievable.

This said, one of the very first things I would do is set up a keybind system. It'll take some getting used to, but will make you a much better player. Trust me on this. Try it and if you don't want to immediately go and tell everyone else to do the same, message me.

Also, I would look at interfaces on the site, the stock interface with your standard addons like omen/recount and such can become really cluttered. Not to mention things like your target aren't very conviently placed. I like to have my target's health bar and stuff right below my toon. So there is no question as to what I am targeted on. I can see it right there. Also, I like to have alot of open room on the screen so I can get a good view of the entire raid, for situational awareness. Helps when a mob breaks off, or a new add comes in. Or you see that eye beam coming at you, or the damn DPS standing in the death ring again.

Also, zoom out all the way, there is a script command to make the max distance greater then you can set in the interface (/script SetCVar("cameraDistanceMax",50)) . You're toon will only be like a quarter of an inch on the screen, but being able to see the entire island while tanking Sartharion is really useful. Also, if you have an addon like Aloft the little bars for the adds will be very visable and you can see which ones you have aggro on, or need aggro on.

Now, my interface has taken alot of work, as I'm sure most of the peoples on here have. It's just like keybindings. You gotta play with it till it feels right to you, not keep banging your head against the wall getting used to the stock interface/key setup till it becomes comfortable. Cause, it probably won't.

Also, I turned off key board turn buttons. (A = stafe left, and D = strafe right.) If you haven't heard it yet, keyboard turning is slow, and horrible when you need to move quickly. If you just turn the keyboard turn off on your keybindings, it'll become second nature to turn with the mouse. If you have a 5 button mouse, it may be worth trying setting one of the mouse buttons to backing up, I do that and use it for kiting/positioning mobs. It's really useful to be able to kite around a room completely with your mouse and use your other hand for rotation only.

uglybbtoo
07-21-2009, 12:23 PM
Bummer with that ... good luck and keep tanking

http://www.pa.uky.edu/~shlosman/anim/nevergiveup.jpg

Nomiss
07-21-2009, 12:37 PM
Why did you have anything but the torso targetted if you were the second body tank and hence made a click error on taunt?

If you wanna kill the right arm as fast as possible, I as the second tank I would dps the right arm (and apply sunder/TC) when someone is gripped. Makes the fight more fun then just standing there any waiting for de debuff and taunt.

Just make sure to focus the other tank or have another way to keep track on the debuff on him.

Can't see anything wrong with that...

And, regarding the keybindings. Look at the tread in the UI section...

JayM
07-21-2009, 12:52 PM
Nomiss
Thanks, but do you think that the "Goto love Bliz" ultralow DPS of a Prot tank is really gonna make that much of a difference on any target? My Average in Ulduar is something like 1.2K, Bliz has done a great job in keeping that number as low as possible. I jsut DPS (haha ) the chest with no threat moves, apply a SS on occasion to make sure I am not too far from the main tank in OMEN, and wait to be told when he wants me to taunt. I generally keep Battle shout and Commanding shout up to help wiht HP and attack power.

Yea I need to train myself on Keybindings

uglybbtoo
07-21-2009, 12:54 PM
Again the hit boxes overlap.

TC/Shockwave any shout etc is gonna hit arm anyhow.

Normally dps warrors do the sunder thing anyhow but I guess if you dont have one there may be merit.

So the only thing you can contribute is your absolutely massive dps to the arm ^.^

Not the sort of thing you want to recommend to a new tank as advice IMO.

Hell if you are that bored why not go over and tank some adds and I am sure there are pro tanks that do.

JayM
07-21-2009, 12:56 PM
I have a glyph that applies 2 sunders for every devistate I hit

JayM
07-21-2009, 12:57 PM
plus I am in to deep wounds so I am loading the boss with DOT's for 50 and 60 dmg every tic

Nomiss
07-21-2009, 03:28 PM
....


Im totaly with you...

It's just fun to do something "more" sometimes, same reason that i usaly applies debuffs on freya's adds aswell even when i tank freya... Kolegran is one of the most boring tanking fights in whole ulduar (the rumble tanking helps abit).

I just pointed out that there could be reason for a tank to change target and yes i know that the hit boxes over lap.

uglybbtoo
07-21-2009, 07:03 PM
Come on do something more helpful :=)

We have a guildie who has song snippets and he cues appropriate snippets to play into vent when he is bored.

Hammer Time, Final Count down, Safety dance we have almost wiped a couple of times with everyone laughing.

Gumurak
07-27-2009, 03:23 AM
Ok, not sure why everyone is mentioning vig on the other tank. I personally would never do it. Except for Mimiron, because of the way we do things. Taunt has got deminishing returns now. So having the ability to taunt more just places you in the deminishing returns table to the point where its immune. frankly dude, I won't say go shopping for a new guild. I find that to be utterly absurd to even suggest such a thing. That kind of stuff is what makes good guilds loose good tanks. or good guilds helping to make good tanks. And it's a challenge now to prove otherwise.

Unless he was all up in your grill like Dives from the 50dkp minus video. Then it would be time for a chat. I to am a clicker, I do fine for my 10 man group. And I did fine in BC. However keybinds work wonders for certain fights and situations. So I use both depending. On a fight like Kolo I would never put vig on the other tank. But thats just me. And the reason for that is my guild is a casual guild with casual raiding. Sometimes the tanks I'm with are sub par. Putting myself into a position to place kolo on diminishing returns for taunt is out of the question.

I would make the suggestions to switch out on 1 crunch instead of 2. This will seem silly to some folks. But I have found it to be perfect for subpar tanks in my guild that are learning the fight for the first time. And a good way for your tanks to learn adjustment for it. Switch at one, by the time they get crunch youll have 10-15 seconds left of it. Once you switch that 10-15 seconds will fall before you get a new stack most of the time.

And this is only temporary until you get used to the fight. Exspecially considering you mentioned somewhere between 34-36k buffed hp's. I'm not sure how long you have been with this guild either. But if they are willing to cut you out for one mistake. i'd sit down and have a talk with them. maybe show them this post and tell him you are making the effort to correct the mistake. Even though you know exactly what it is you did wrong. if hes not willing to sit down and chat with you about it. then he's being rather unreasonable.