View Full Version : Vezax - the threat, rage & spec blues
07-13-2009, 11:15 PM
I have a rather complex problem to which i hope i get some help with.
With summer hitting raiding hard, we've scaled down our 25mans and are concentrating mostly on 10man Ulduar & hardmodes.
Currently i feel overgeared for Ulduar10. On most bosses i feel ragestarved and my threat has started dropping due to this. On the other hand, our paladin tank has improved to a point where he's putting out insane threat in all situations and can tank any boss reliably. So i've started taking a backseat mostly.
Our real problem comes on Vezax. That's the one fight where i'm 100% needed. We're still having problems with this boss (despite having killed YS). Healers are always having mana problems. Normally we use the kiting method. Once, i tanked on my DK and took the blows normally but for other times we cant guarantee the availability of raid cooldowns for a standing fight - and it seems i'm the only one who can kite the bastard properly.
This leads me to my speccing problem. I'm specced for survival with imp demo shout - and it's making a huge difference in Vezax. At other times it makes me an inferior tank on every other boss. I cant afford a UA offspec as mostly the paladin is tanking and i need to switch to a pure dps spec. I cant see myself doing a UA & Fury build either as that'd leave me a horrible tank in every other respect.
I'm at a total loss about what to go for. Ideally i'd spec/glyph for deep wounds for overall good threat & aoe tanking, fury offspec - if it wasnt for vezax. We definitely need that debuff. Our other fury warrior says he's constantly ragestarved and cant afford to drop Unbridled Wrath so he's out and "raiding warlock" does not compute on our server :P
btw any idea of how to tackle vezax hardmode would be appreciated. I'm waiting for a video from Cider/Lore :P
07-14-2009, 12:28 AM
Might be slightly off topic but your fury warrior can't drop Unbrindled Wrath? It's one of the worst talents in the fury tree... most fury warriors even drop it for commanding presence to provide the raid with a higher health buff.
Sounds like he's just lazy to respec or doesn't want to lower personal DPS by keeping up demo...
07-14-2009, 12:35 AM
You should have no problems tanking him in your current gear in a DW spec. If you absolutely NEED imp demo on the 10man version, then either you or your healers might be doing something majorly wrong. Maybe the healers are having trouble healing while on the move (if you are kiting). Try eating the surges with glyphed last stand and glyphed/talented shield wall (alternating between the two - using an external cooldown and block with last stand). As for kiting, anyone can kite him. No one should have any trouble whatsoever getting away from him before he finishes casting and is able to throw a punch while surged. That's ridiculous. Just stay at the edge of his hitbox (back up as much as you can w/o him creeping forward, then stay put) and immediately turn and run in the opposite direction once he starts casting. He will NOT catch you if you have room to run, even if he doesn't stop to cast (which is rare).
Also, I have a big problem with dps warriors refusing to spec into imp demo because of unbridled wrath. UW offers a VERY small gain in dps on almost every fight. Imp demo is huge in many situations, and a prot warrior who is concerned about threat just can NOT pick it up. Tell him to suck it up and spec for imp demo if you feel it's needed. If not, get a new dps warrior.
Edit: If you are concerned about threat, get armsman. :)
07-14-2009, 12:48 AM
Trying to kite Vezax and do Hard mode is going to cause a metric ton of problems you don't want to have.
Warriors are able to tank him in place, it just requires a few things due to longer cooldowns. Improved Disciplines + Glyph of Shield Wall, and (pending external CDs) Glyph of Last Stand. You'd pop Shield Wall every other Surge, and pop Last Stand + Trinket(s) - like Heart of Iron - on whichever Surges you don't Wall.
Can't really make suggestions about healers without knowing what you use generally.
As for threat, try bumping up your Expertise. If you feel "overgeared", things like the Leviathan's Coil and the Defender's Code probably aren't helping since you could be wearing more threat oriented pieces like the Mark of Norgannon or Platinum Band of the Aesir. Remember, gear for the fight. If you don't need your full on survivability set, mix in a few extra "threat" pieces. I'm not sure what use Improved Spell Reflect really has anymore aside from Vezax trash or something since they changed Steelbreaker's aura (I've long since dumped my Warrior, so maybe a full-time Warrior could enlighten me), so you could probably safely move those two talents elsewhere for a slight boost. The chance for spells to miss doesn't really help against most bosses.
If you have a Rogue or Hunter to Tricks/MD you, threat shouldn't be an issue at all, even with Imp Demo. I'm with the others saying that your Fury Warrior buddy should really get it, though.
Armsman is the strongest Threat enchant out there. With lower expertise (<26), the Expertise enchant is probably more important though.
07-14-2009, 12:59 AM
The OP has not clearly stated his problem here. Can you tell us WHY you are having trouble with vezax? Are you dying? Are DPSers threat-capped? Are your DPSers dying to raid dmg? Hitting the enrage timer?
07-14-2009, 01:03 AM
Your guild is not listed on WMO, so if you post a WWS report it might be easier to help you out.
07-14-2009, 03:19 PM
no handy wws, i'll get one next reset.
Personally i think it's mostly a healing problem. Healers are extremely scarce on our server so we have to make do with whoever we get - sometimes it's even an alt. Healers are asking me to gear for high avoidance which isnt helping my rage flow at all. Tanking him on my dk was so much smoother & easier.
As for kiting, i know all about the hitbox etc and all our tanks are pretty capable. But it seems whatever we do, unless we plug in extra runspeed enchant or the holy priest talent, we get at least one big hit on the back. We've tried with everything from another warrior tank to palatank to druid. If it's me, we 1-shot it, if it's any other tank we end up spending an hour wiping on him.
As to what our problem is...it's everything. Healers going oom, dps hitting the threat ceiling fast (my personal opinion on armsman: if 2% extra threat saves you, you're doing something wrong). Which is why i'm really interested how people are handling the hardmode. While we havent done any hardmodes yet this is the only one that has me going "no way we can do this, ever". So i'm thinking we're doing something wrong.
I'll try vezax with my dw spec this run, lets see how it goes...and bug our fury warrior:) (problem is he doesnt have a permanent spot either)
07-14-2009, 10:25 PM
Someone else made a post about kiting problems a while back. Said he always took a hit each time. Then he mentioned he was a keyboard turner.... Unless you are using your keys to turn your toon and then run, you should NEVER get hit. When a surge is almost due, just use your mouse to turn your camera so it is facing the direction you will be running. Once you see the cast and/or see the emote, instantly click both mouse buttons to run in that direction w/o having to turn. These might sound like extremely basic instructions for someone raiding ulduar, but if you do this you will NEVER get hit. Unless you have the worst latency in the world. You should also consider using tuskar's vitality on your boots anyway. I would feel really gimped if I were only able to move at 100% as opposed to 108%.
Also, about armsman. 2% threat is a really big boost with the amount of threat we do naturally nowadays. There are several fights where it will be extremely valuable to you, if not required. Never complain about threat if you are not willing to use that enchant. For the most part, there are only 2 enchants that most top tanks will use on their gloves: Armsman and +18stamina. The stamina is for fights where threat is not too big of an issue but survival is (IC hardmode, mimiron, freya, algalon if you are not tanking first, etc). On any other fight, it would probably be best to use armsman.
07-15-2009, 01:07 AM
If you are having serious problems with kiting, and can't time running on your own, you can always set up a hunter (easiest class to do this with) to stand behind you and dps. If he is far enough from vezax and dpsing, you can make an intervene macro to him and not really have to worry as much about the running. It doesn't solve the problem 100%, but might help.
Also, I mostly suggest a hunter for this job, because their mana can come back due to their abilities (cant remember which one it is as its 4am and im really tired) so they are less likely to need to go get into the green stuff.
Just an idea i was toying with when i tanked him