PDA

View Full Version : Threat



Krith
07-13-2009, 04:35 AM
Human Warrior.
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Silvermoon&n=Krith)
I have threat problems.

I have searched tankspot for 'threat' etc and find plenty of posts referring to rotation and mathematical modeling but, I have been unable to find a post that helps me with my problem. Perhaps the answer is so obvious, that noone else would bother to post the question. HALP!

I have been a guild tank with the same guild for about two years. Over that time little has changed apart from a few people leaving and joining from time to time. I rarely join pugs as I must always be 'not saved' for guild runs. This has led to me 'not getting out much' and experiencing similar raids with other players. I only get real feedback from my guildies. Consequently over time, they have adjusted to me as I have to them.

Generating threat has been playing on my mind for a while, Ignis was the first time it really became a problem for me. The guild raid leaders response was 'The tank needs to have more time to generate threat, he is moving around the room' and indeed, using the 4 point strategy, I am but...

I was freed to join a 10 man Ulduar PUG the following night and at Hodir, after a couple of wipes, the RL /w'd me asking why I was unable to generate enough threat for the dps to really open up. I was unable to answer because:

My rotations are right on the money. I am confident of that.
My gear is of an equal standard to the other raid members.
I am def and hit capped.
I am never rage starved.

So, what am I missing from the big picture that makes it so hard for me to generate threat?

Fayre
07-13-2009, 07:36 AM
To be honest it's hard to say without more information. Do you have a detailed Recount or WWS/WoL logs for recent fights?

My suspicion would be that your rotations or heroic strike spam are falling off when you're on bosses with movement. Are you mouse-turning and using keybindings?

Krith
07-13-2009, 07:41 AM
Here is a recent wws report:
Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/qabeue2iwd2jg?a=x200000002153d4c)

And as far as rotations, I follow the chart from another thread in this forum. I.E. nothing gets the chance to cooldown and ss fires as soon as it procs.

I just read a comment about shield block being related to threat? This is new to me and I can't find any further information to back this up. Any comments on if and more importantly why shield block helps my threat.

As far as movement, I have a zboard fang so movement is not an issue; combining mouse and kbd to great effect is very easy.

Also any direction to further reading about shield block effecting threat would be greatly appreciated.

Fayre
07-13-2009, 08:26 AM
From that, I think you're prioritising devastate too high. It shouldn't be your number 2 source of damage. Usually my chart has Heroic Strike, then Shield Slam, then Revenge. Devastate is below these.

The biggest culprit for your threat woes is definitely Revenge. Look at the Ignis kill. 16 revenges and 99 devastates. There's a problem right there. Revenge is important to use on cooldown, prioritise it just behind Shield Slam. It does almost the same damage and its cheap to use - makes it very efficient.

I also notice you don't use Concussion Blow often. Use that in place of a devastate whenever its up, even on a boss. It does more damage (and threat) than a devastate. The same goes for Shockwave, but there are bugs with this ability on bosses in Ulduar, it seems - some seem immune.

In terms of buffs, you don't appear to have used Vigilance at any point during the raid. At a basic level, use this before the pull on whichever person gives you the most threat worries. It gives you 10% of their threat - effectively a 20% bonus for that person.

Also replace your hit rating food with the expertise rating stuff. Read this post for more info: Expertise is always better than Hit - Warriors - TankingTips.com (http://www.tankingtips.com/2009/01/07/expertise-is-always-better-than-hit/)

In terms of your question, Shield Block does this : "Increases your chance to block and block value by 100% for 10 sec." The block value increase will improve the damage of your Damage Shield and (more importantly) your Shield Slam. Use it as a threat boost at the start of a fight.

Hope that's helpful - good luck.

Krith
07-13-2009, 08:45 AM
Thank you so much Kayella, I believe your comments will be a great help!

Regarding the 'Shield block' comment. The quote I was referring to is:



Alrighty Zeraph. Generally, Warrior and Paladin tanks' threat is built off of their shield block rating. Your armory page tells me you have 12% shield block rating. However, your avoidance is pretty okay.

Rather than the Shield Block ability.

Snippy
07-13-2009, 08:51 AM
As you start to use vigilence, please leave the pally tanks out of your choice of people to buff.

Superspy23
07-13-2009, 10:33 AM
Thank you so much Kayella, I believe your comments will be a great help!

Regarding the 'Shield block' comment. The quote I was referring to is:




Rather than the Shield Block ability.

Ignore that. Shield block rating is better for pallies than warriors by a long shot. In fact it's so low on its contribution to our threat that it's nearly the last of the last to consider when evaluating your threat.

Bluepepper
07-13-2009, 11:14 AM
Hi, I agree with Kayella and here are my recommendations


---General info---
99% of the time whenever I'm single target opening I usually follow this sequence:

Heroic Throw->Charge->Shield Block->Shield slam

This opening sequence can be done in a relatively quick time if executed correctly (3 secs or less). The great thing about this sequence is that half of the abilities are off the GCD, and your threat lead should be sufficent in the majority of cases for the first few critical seconds of the tranisitional inital aggro/control aggro phase (initial aggro phase + Control aggro phase = opening phase).

A couple of problems with this sequence that are very important is the rage factor and the 2nd is how tight you can sequence these abilities in order for it to be an effective and fast opener. The rage factor can determine whether your opening is going to be solid and controlled, loose but in control, loose and barely in control, or cross my fingers and hope this is going to work type deal.

By your spec and glyph choices I'm going to take a guess at what your opening is like:
maybe a Bloodrage here, heroic throw OR ranged weapon attack by you, or maybe a bloodrage here, boss or mob comes in melee range then mocking blow?

This opener is fine in some cases where you can't charge or where it's an unwise decision to start with a charge->shield slam opener, but should be limited to those circumstances because of the threat factor. You most likely have to wait a second or two to use shield slam on your target because you have some rage but not quite enough, and probably revenge isn't up because you didn't block, dodge, or parry an attack which in turn is causing early threat difficulties and effectively forcing you to use mocking blow.


----Glyph and Talents----
I've taken a look at your spec and your glyphs and there are some talent choices and glyphs that came immediately to my attention and I believe are a cause to your difficulty with threat.

For glyphs, I'd personally get rid of glyph of mocking blow and barbaric insults and put in a glyph that has more "up time". I like glyph of revenge and glyph of blocking because of the synergistic effect these glyphs have with one another to effect threat production.

Furthermore, your threat can be helped with putting 2 points in improved charge and 1 point in improved heroic strike. The 2 points in improved charge now make your 15 rage generating charge go up to a 25 rage generating charge which translates into an earlier use of shield slam which is very important in the opening phase, provided you can charge>SS open. I keep stressing the opening phase so much because this is where the foundation of a threat lead is built on.

The extra point in improved heroic strike will allow you more usage of heroic strike. Although heroic strike should be used intelligently provided you can rage dump if and only if SS, revenge, concu, shockwave and the like are on CD.

---Rotation---
Your single target rotation priority should or could go as follows:

Shield Slam
Revenge
Heroic throw (yes I use this ability in my single target rotation if there's no threat of adds)
Concussion blow
Shockwave
Heroic strike
Devastate


---Tips---
Pug five mans whenever you can and do so often. Pugging and I mean pugging with people you haven't pugged with before. In most cases this will force you to pull out every trick in the tanking bible in order to stay in control of an encounter. People who you don't know can't cover your mistakes which is a great advantage and minor disadvantage at the same time.

Being rage starved isn't a problem per se, what's a problem is being rage starved at the wrong times. When the times are right though you should be dumping your rage like a mad man. One such time is what I like the call the maintenance/survival aggro phase or middle phase. I call it maintenance because you attained your first two goals of gaining initial aggro and control aggro and now you're just focusing on maintaining debuffs, holding a sufficient threat lead, and now redirecting more focus on proactive survival rather than directing focus what and how you can attain initial aggro.


PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE the rotation priority religiously. Every CD especially in the opening is prescious. I for one think our priority system is a gift from blizzard because it keeps you engaged as a tank use it and abuse it!

Satrina
07-13-2009, 12:27 PM
All of the above, but also be aware that Shockwave is bugged right now, seemingly randomly: http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f14/51349-shockwave-bugged.html Keep an eye out when fighting and make sure your Shockwave is actually doing something. If you get bugged, take it out of your rotation until you can zone out and back in.

Looking at your XT kill (a fight where you aren't moving at all), the kill was 2:33

Devastate: 33 hits + 17 crits + 1 missed + 1 parried = 52
Shield Slam: 12 hits + 3 crits = 15
Revenge: 5 hits + 1 crit + 1 miss + 1 parried = 8
Heroic Throw: 1 crit = 1

You used abilities that invoke the GCD 76 times. That's 114 seconds of GCD in a 153 second fight. You simply aren't pressing the buttons enough.