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Laldail
07-12-2009, 06:25 PM
So currently raiding Ulduar 25man and pretty much every time I MT a boss, I end up dead mid fight with my healer's being able to pick up the back up and finish the fight, which from past experiences is rare. On occasion even in Naxx i've had this issue where mid fight on a boss I'll randomly drop with nothing really crazy hitting me. I'm trying to figure out if somethings wrong on my side or if I'm over looking something. I know warriors tend to spike in damage, but as of late it seems MTing for me means I'm gonna die. As far as i have checked all the other tanks in my guild are below me in avoidance, a tad behind in HP, and behind in AC. Block rating and value is the only thing our Pally MT beats me on.

ARMORY LINK (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shadow+Council&n=Laldail)

Full raid buffed im sitting at 40khp 51-52% avoidance 21% BR 1232BV 25kAC*

*AC was a rough guess I can't remember off the top of my head.

Any suggestions or advice is much appreciated and thanks in advance.

Asheowyn
07-12-2009, 06:30 PM
Moving around (and turning your backside to whatever you're MTing) accidents maybe?

Or maybe after giving your healers a breather with a cooldown use such as Shieldwall?
(I've noticed this one happen to me sometimes; shieldwall, healers adjust, shieldwall expires, healers fail to react; Dead tank ;))

edit: a good idea after every death (or even after every succesful kill) is to check your combat logs. These often explain a lot. If you're getting a nasty parry streak; that would explain deaths aswell since they'll reset the swing timer on the boss. Stuff like that can all be gathered from your logs.

morelore
07-12-2009, 06:32 PM
So currently raiding Ulduar 25man and pretty much every time I MT a boss, I end up dead mid fight with my healer's being able to pick up the back up and finish the fight, which from past experiences is rare. On occasion even in Naxx i've had this issue where mid fight on a boss I'll randomly drop with nothing really crazy hitting me. I'm trying to figure out if somethings wrong on my side or if I'm over looking something. I know warriors tend to spike in damage, but as of late it seems MTing for me means I'm gonna die. As far as i have checked all the other tanks in my guild are below me in avoidance, a tad behind in HP, and behind in AC. Block rating and value is the only thing our Pally MT beats me on.

ARMORY LINK (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shadow+Council&n=Laldail)

Full raid buffed im sitting at 40khp 51-52% avoidance 21% BR 1232BV 25kAC*

*AC was a rough guess I can't remember off the top of my head.

Any suggestions or advice is much appreciated and thanks in advance.

Honestly from your description it sounds like your healers are pissed at you and letting you die. Get an addon like Grim Reaper, and use tools like world of logs to help you analyze your combat log and see what killed you, how much damage it did, and who didn't heal you to take care of it.

Laldail
07-12-2009, 09:50 PM
This is the most recent WWS we have atm believe it shows a few deaths but i don't know what to do anymore i've tried everything i can think fo to help healers and such blowing Cooldowns when large amounts of damage is coming in and such.

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/bvpajo224ytjy)

Liar
07-12-2009, 10:26 PM
This is the most recent WWS we have atm believe it shows a few deaths but i don't know what to do anymore i've tried everything i can think fo to help healers and such blowing Cooldowns when large amounts of damage is coming in and such.

Wow Web Stats (http://wowwebstats.com/bvpajo224ytjy)

I only checked Razorscale attempt no 1 but you took a 30k swing then another 30k swing 2 seconds after that. The only heals were some druid HoTs (you also managed to fall down somehow and I am kinda puzzled how that is even possible during P2 since she doesn't knock people away anymore).
In any case, that was a healing issue or your OOR'd your healers.

Do what morelore said, install Grim Reaper and check your death logs yourself. Before that assign healers properly: Druids are NOT MT healers. Having one is nice on the MT to smoothen up the damage income but it's your Paladins and Disc Priests that do the lion share of healing on tanks.

Gale
07-12-2009, 10:34 PM
It's either reactive healing or not sticking to assignments. When you tank, they only start casting after damage lands or they're not even paying attention to your health, so heals come in slow. After you die, they start panicking and spamming the backup, so he lives. Just bad healers, not a tanking problem.

Laldail
07-12-2009, 10:35 PM
Thanks for the advice will do.

Warheart
07-12-2009, 10:38 PM
I just checked the first Razorscale parse too, and noted the two big hits when you died.

There was no AP reduction up at all during phase 2. Keep Demoralizing Shout up! One of your DKs had Frost Fever up but you should also get used to keeping up Thunder Clap yourself.

If you have Essence of Gossamer, use it instead of Rune of Repulsion.

Nazhir
07-12-2009, 10:40 PM
Although some people hate it, I use OptiTaunt. It will announce the use of your defensive cooldowns. Then, at least, you are giving healers some idea of what cooldowns you've used, and they can adjust accordingly.

uglybbtoo
07-14-2009, 08:47 PM
Parsing attempt 1

source=laldail
0:10'58.109 Razorscale is afflicted by Deep Wounds. #60240
0:10'58.125 Laldail gains Sword and Board. #60253
0:10'58.562 Razorscale is afflicted by Taunt. #60292
0:10'58.859 Laldail Heroic Strike hits Razorscale for 1000 Physical. #60304
0:10'59.093 Razorscale suffers 93 Physical damage from Laldail Deep Wounds. #60314
0:10'59.750 Laldail Charge Stun failed. Razorscale was immune. #60336


target=laldail

0:10'59.734 Razorscale melee swing hits Laldail for 32350 Physical. #60335
0:10'59.750 Laldail gains 4 Rage from Revitalize. #60340
0:11'00.171 Laldail gains 1255 health from Albero Lifebloom. #60352
0:11'00.171 Kraa Earth Shield heals Laldail for 2486. #60357
0:11'00.546 Laldail gains 1911 health from Chandler Rejuvenation. #60385
0:11'01.093 Laldail gains Bloodrage. #60416
0:11'01.109 Laldail gains 1255 health from Albero Lifebloom. #60419
0:11'01.375 Laldail gains 10 Rage from Bloodrage. #60441
0:11'01.734 Laldail gains Last Stand. #60446
0:11'01.750 Laldail's Rejuvenation is refreshed. #60464
0:11'01.953 Laldail gains 1118 health from Albero Regrowth. #60466
0:11'01.953 Razorscale attack misses Laldail. #60470
0:11'02.171 Laldail gains 1254 health from Albero Lifebloom. #60483
0:11'02.296 Laldail falls and loses 6355 health. #60495
0:11'02.296 Laldail gains 2052 health from Albero Rejuvenation. #60496
0:11'02.609 Mellenium Devotion Aura was removed from Laldail. #60501
0:11'02.953 Laldail gains Lifebloom. #60525
0:11'03.046 Laldail gains 1 Rage from Bloodrage. #60531
0:11'03.062 Laldail gains 1255 health from Albero Lifebloom. #60533
0:11'03.062 Laldail Sword and Board was removed from Laldail. #60536
0:11'03.375 Khrone Abominable Might was removed from Laldail. #60567
0:11'04.562 Laldail gains 386 health from Chandler Lifebloom. #60602
0:11'04.906 Laldail gains 1 Rage from Bloodrage. #60617
0:11'04.921 Laldail gains 1255 health from Albero Lifebloom. #60621
0:11'04.921 Laldail gains Lifebloom (2). #60632
0:11'04.921 Razorscale melee swing hits Laldail for 30575 Physical.



You taunted and charged a boss who so he obviously a fair bit away from you and then took 2 30K hits in 5 seconds pretty much a fair guess you out ranged your healer or else they were not expecting the incoming damage.

The real eye opener is parsing the logs with target=mellenium and source=razorscale

0:11'13.890 Razorscale melee swing hits Mellenium for 29601 Physical. (2047 Blocked) #61333
0:11'14.734 Mellenium is afflicted by Flame Buffet (2). #61393
0:11'16.296 Razorscale melee swing hits Mellenium for 26801 Physical. (1590 Blocked) #61514
0:11'21.812 Razorscale attack misses Mellenium. #62162
0:11'24.312 Razorscale melee swing hits Mellenium for 30496 Physical. (1590 Blocked) #62410
0:11'24.328 Mellenium is afflicted by Flame Buffet (3). #62443
0:11'25.484 Mellenium is afflicted by Fuse Armor (2). #62623
0:11'26.343 Razorscale attack was dodged by Mellenium. #62725
0:11'28.734 Razorscale attack was parried by Mellenium. #62982
0:11'31.140 Razorscale melee swing hits Mellenium for 17800 Physical. (1590 Blocked) #63207
0:11'32.343 Razorscale Mark of Blood heals Mellenium for 1746. #63338
0:11'33.171 Razorscale melee swing hits Mellenium for 19058 Physical. (1590 Blocked) #63426
0:11'35.031 Razorscale Mark of Blood heals Mellenium for 1746. (1746 Overheal) #63556
0:11'35.515 Razorscale melee swing hits Mellenium for 18606 Physical. (1590 Blocked) #63633

At your death and when mellenium picks it up last hit 11.24 in razor is whacking you guys at 30K ... notice from 11.30 on the hits are down at 17K what happened in between "11'27 Mellenium gains Holy Shield".

What did you do wrong you charged razorscale and popped last stand rather than shield wall and your healer was either out of range or unprepared.

Kree
07-14-2009, 11:12 PM
Stay in heal range, keep debuffs up (tc+demo) and ull be fine^^

uglybbtoo
07-15-2009, 12:05 AM
I realized I never got back to the original question as it was asked I sort of hinted at it.

Is your reason you feel a bit squishie because you are hanging onto your shield wall and using it at a last resort (like last stand) rather than using it pre-emptively anticipating heavy damage? Only you can answer that?

The reason I ask that is in all of the logs not just that fight you used it 3 times for whole log 40min apart on a spell with a 5min CD

filter all=wall
0:40'32.390 Laldail gains Shield Wall. #151562
0:40'44.390 Laldail Shield Wall was removed from Laldail. #153729
1:09'53.265 Laldail gains Shield Wall. #263881
1:09'58.265 Laldail Shield Wall was removed from Laldail. #264366
1:43'11.156 Laldail gains Shield Wall. #308896
1:43'23.047 Laldail Shield Wall was removed from Laldail. #310145

I don't know maybee even consider talenting and glyphing it down to a 2min CD so you use it more offensively ... might not be your play style but hey throwing a suggestion out there.

Andronikus
07-15-2009, 02:16 AM
Is your reason you feel a bit squishie because you are hanging onto your shield wall and using it at a last resort (like last stand) rather than using it pre-emptively anticipating heavy damage? Only you can answer that?


I know i am bad at using shield wall often too :/

But after YEARS of it being on a 30 min CD it's kinda hard to adjust to using it every 2 mins :P

uglybbtoo
07-15-2009, 04:11 AM
Is there such a thing as too often in ulduar the stuff just hits so dam hard.

Consider his example the moment he decided to charge

Option 1. He pressed shield wall immediately before or after he would have survived the next two hits which should have been less than 17K and possibly given that life bloom was running may have survived a third.

Option 2. He waits gets hit once at 30K health dips presses shield wall he probably survives the next hit but even a flame buffet now is going to kill him.

Option 3. He waits and prays for a heal which never arrives and he dies with shield wall unused.

Its a play style thing diff people will have diff views on it I am sure.

For my part unless I am absolutely sure I need the wall for a particular event I pop it if I even have any doubt in my mind.

Maelstrom
07-15-2009, 04:20 AM
Vent-> "Taunting in 3" -> Success.

Brutallus taught me the value of this in TBC, done it ever since. :)

Andronikus
07-15-2009, 04:20 AM
Its a play style thing diff people will have diff views on it I am sure.

For my part unless I am absolutely sure I need the wall for a particular event I pop it if I even have any doubt in my mind.

Just out of curiosity.... how much tanking did you do when it was a 30 min CD? Old habits die hard :'(

Burning a SW to me is still a last last resort. I know i should be using it 2 or 3 times a fight... but i never do :/

Maybe if last stand was a passive ability... that procced when we were killed.... oh wait.... :P

uglybbtoo
07-15-2009, 05:22 AM
No I raised my warrior in that stupid period between BC and wrath when all the raid guilds were chilling and there was on going patches every 2nd day. I also played a pally and it always had lay of hands which was your last gasp saviour and always treated our version of shield wall as use whenever.

This came up for me with another tank who was geared better than me but felt I took less damage and the healers felt was easier to heal. When we analyzed the logs he was taking a bit less damage per hit but I was using 30+ shield walls per raid so I was getting say maybee 2 hits per wall at say 10K per wall so around 600K less damage.

Its important I dont just randomly hit SW every time its up I time it to when I think i will take alot of damage but I certainly dont treat it like it's a must keep and going to save me.

Again some would argue the save it way is better it's like a lot of things subjective.

Edit: Never done hard modes but I am pretty sure from what I have read you have to save walls for particular things.

Andronikus
07-15-2009, 08:34 AM
Never said you were wrong guvna :)

It's just hard when they change an 'oh shoot' by dropping it's cooldown by over 90% =o

morelore
07-16-2009, 10:24 AM
Is there such a thing as too often in ulduar the stuff just hits so dam hard.

Consider his example the moment he decided to charge

Option 1. He pressed shield wall immediately before or after he would have survived the next two hits which should have been less than 17K and possibly given that life bloom was running may have survived a third.

Option 2. He waits gets hit once at 30K health dips presses shield wall he probably survives the next hit but even a flame buffet now is going to kill him.

Option 3. He waits and prays for a heal which never arrives and he dies with shield wall unused.

Its a play style thing diff people will have diff views on it I am sure.

For my part unless I am absolutely sure I need the wall for a particular event I pop it if I even have any doubt in my mind.


He should have been hitting shield wall more often, but it can't be up all the time and this is just how hard stuff in ulduar hits. His healers need to be ready and able to handle that kind of incoming damage.

Bad healers, or he OORed them with the charge. Possibly both.

Bung
07-16-2009, 11:51 AM
I looked at your armory and quite frankly im jealous. I would guess that its a healer problem, not ur gear. The only advice i can offer is really just a matter of preference but here goes:
1. Duelspec tank and put points in all of the survivability talents like improved disciplines (shield wall), improved demo shout, ect...Glyph for shield wall too. create a 5/10/51 build like ciderhelm.
2. Drop skinning for JC. Its not a huge difference but slightly more stam cant hurt once you can make the +41 stam gems.
3. learn the fights and use your two trinkets, enraged regen, shield wall, last stand, a potion, in a rythym. Im not a big fan of the parry trinket and the one from JC or essence of Gossamer would give you over 1k more HP.
4. Most importantly get better healers on you. Gear looks great.

uglybbtoo
07-16-2009, 08:23 PM
Ok we weren't there so it's sort of hard to make a call ... but everyone is quick to blame the healers.

But I also put it too you would you have charged Razorscale without popping a trinket, shield wall something?

I can't know how far razor was but surely he didn't need the rage because he has been tanking the mobs. I am not a fan of charging bosses in ulduaar but again thats personal.

Laldail
07-19-2009, 10:42 AM
The reason for the charge is I'm building threat on him when he hits 50% he does his wing buffet to toss you away if you time it right your charge keeps razorscale in normal position and stops you from taking fall damage unless this was changed, but every wing buffet that's how I stop my fall damage.

For the SW issues I am used to the SW being used only for frenzies or whatever they are called now when the boss hits a low % of HP, so I will get used to poping it more often.

Before the boss hits 50% I warn all my healers I will be facing razorscale to the south I may get knockedback and I told them to stand outside the circle to avoid the punt, but every time I tank this boss it seems like this happens. I got used to charging and poping Last stand to try and give time for healers to re-adjust to the punt and everything. Not only do i have death issues with Razorscale though but deconstructor and pretty much every boss in ulduar they have me MT for so I don't know. Sadly I can't find the parses for the other bosses though.

Molohk
07-19-2009, 11:08 AM
The charge is fine, but your healers have to be prepared for it. Because of charge, healers have to be more predictive about the tank's positioning, if they're used to sitting in the back waiting for a pull, you're going to get out of range.

uglybbtoo
07-19-2009, 08:26 PM
. Not only do i have death issues with Razorscale though but deconstructor and pretty much every boss in ulduar they have me MT for so I don't know. Sadly I can't find the parses for the other bosses though.

Ok as I said we can't tell what is going on but sounds like there are raid issues and you aren't all in sync.

As a basic rule I am glyphed to 2min on SW and I always pop it any movement pull to a boss who hits 25K+ because your healer is trying to move to position as are you, so there is plenty of chances for error and 2 hits and you are dead.

Take XT I would always pop it on pull because both healer and I are moving. I would trinket first tantrum and SW should be back for 2nd but really you also get extra heals and shielding from raid when they occur as you get a nice announcement on it.

Your gear is fine and you aren't taking any significant more damage than the other tank so it's the fine detail stuff between you and healer and you and raid.

Damonvile
07-19-2009, 08:47 PM
Take XT I would always pop it on pull because both healer and I are moving. I would trinket first tantrum and SW should be back for 2nd but really you also get extra heals and shielding from raid when they occur as you get a nice announcement on it.



Why wouldn't you all just move into position and use a hunter to MD ?

And what trinket are you using on tantrum ?

uglybbtoo
07-19-2009, 09:38 PM
Yeah don't even get me started about our hunters and there reluctance to MD because it upsets there rotation I qq'ed this in a thread elsewhere.

From memory you can also only do the walk in tanking towards one side but not sure because I never get to try it :-)

Dodge trinket there is no point in punching last stand or a HP trink the damage is percentage based (80%). I am trying to really dodge the hit or 2 immediately after the tantrum.

Edit: I am also assuming he is moving because he wouldn't or shouldn't get smashed if he was on a stationary pull.