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View Full Version : Help. i have good gear but still making lousy TPS



Zeraph
07-08-2009, 04:53 PM
Hi, currently i am a Protection Paladin doing ulduar 10 with the guild, i can MT but the dps has to hold back for quite a bit. in naxx 10/25 i have an average of 4/5k tps wich imo is realy low. in ulduar 10 i have a lot of problem breaking the 3k line on a steady basis, i use a 2 macro rotation of the 96969 rotatation and have virtually allways somethign to press. Allso when i am tanking in EoE i have trouble keeping above 3k tps. while i see friends (paladin tanks aswell) do 4k ish... i realy hope you guys can help me.

here is my Armory link, Any advice would be welcome.

The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Wildhammer&n=Zeraph)


best Regard Zeraph

on a side note: i have replaced some items the armory should be updated soon :) *replaced enchant on sword for bladeward, better belt*

Tazlex
07-08-2009, 05:11 PM
Armory isn't popping up for some odd reason. Before I comment on anything, I assume on the 6969 rotation you are a Prot Paladin? Sorry if I have it wrong.

Zeraph
07-08-2009, 05:23 PM
yea that is correct sorry for not posting :)

Vindicatar
07-08-2009, 06:07 PM
ur hit and expertise is low, u can SIGNIFICANTLY raise ur threat if u can get hit and soft exp. capped, 263 hit and 26 exp. pretty much all ur hits will connect, u may see the occasional parry from a boss, but raise ur exp to lower the chances of getting parried.

(my main wants ur pants btw QQ) lol

Zeraph
07-09-2009, 03:04 AM
well i changed my gear around a bit and i ma currently having 270 hit and 21 expertise but i am stilll struggling around 3,5k tps in heroics *4k ish on bosses*

and i have 190 hit and 21expertise in raidgear. don't know my threat change there yet but i still feel i am doing way too low threat

Dtain
07-09-2009, 03:10 AM
That does seem like a low average, what are your macros?

Perhaps try manually doing the 969 rotation (only takes 5 keybinds) and see if your threat improves you may have a macro issue.

Zeraph
07-09-2009, 03:45 AM
when i manualy do the rotation and i get it off right i hover around 4.5 to5k tps wich is an improvement but it should be around 6 i think :S

does anyone has a few tips? :)

but on trash it keeps hangin round 3k :(

Ryoku
07-09-2009, 05:22 AM
Do you use exorcism in your rotation? personally I find it an extremely good threat bringer

Zeraph
07-09-2009, 05:30 AM
yes when its up and i have a free second i use it. it;s just awkward :P

i liek tankign a lot but maybe i'm not cut out for it?

headknocker
07-09-2009, 06:23 AM
Try this build:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZA0xA0uMusIufdts0x0c)

Should help you put out more threat. Getting the T7.5 shoulders/hands would also be an upgrade for you. If you're struggling on boss fights, swapping HotR glyph with judgement would be a good idea, but that will give you bigger problems with trash. I assume that you're running with seal of vengence?

Silveronfire
07-09-2009, 06:42 AM
I would advise not using macros for a pally rotation. Are your aggro problems initial burst or later in the fight?

Also bear in mind its the DPS's responsibility to use aggro drops judiciously. Hunters I'm looking at you.

Zeraph
07-09-2009, 08:09 AM
yeah i used that build be4 the tps doesnt realy differs only 200 or so. i;m running with SoV ofc :)

allso my burst is rpetty ok but stil having a hard tme getting aggro.. i seem either to run out of mana in hc's or jsut face 5k tps warlocks :S.

eitherway i was tanking auriyaya last night and i only had 3k tps overall :S i couldnt mke it higher even how much i tried.
and now i am doing OS 25 and there is a pally who;s gear is way lower than mine doing 6 to 7k on the 2 big mob trashpulls :S i;m havigntrouble getting 5 i rly don;t understand my oratation is perfect *i;ve switched to manual*

Martie
07-09-2009, 08:31 AM
Hmmm, I wish I could see your armory.
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Wildhammer&n=Zeraph)

If that's it, I can see some issues.

Get rid of benediction, it does nothing for you.
A lot of your gear still has room for improvement, I wouldn't call it 'good.' Not bad, but not good yet either.

For the rest, there are bosses that are tauntable in Ulduar. While risky, you can use this to boost your threat. Simply have a ranged dps stand at range and out-tps you. When he hits 125%, taunt.

Make sure your hunters and rogues know how to misdirect, make sure your pallies know how to salvation, make sure your mages know how to go invisible.

Zeraph
07-09-2009, 08:44 AM
Hmmm, I wish I could see your armory.
The World of Warcraft Armory (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Wildhammer&n=Zeraph)

If that's it, I can see some issues.

Get rid of benediction, it does nothing for you.
A lot of your gear still has room for improvement, I wouldn't call it 'good.' Not bad, but not good yet either.

For the rest, there are bosses that are tauntable in Ulduar. While risky, you can use this to boost your threat. Simply have a ranged dps stand at range and out-tps you. When he hits 125%, taunt.

Make sure your hunters and rogues know how to misdirect, make sure your pallies know how to salvation, make sure your mages know how to go invisible.


what could i improve on my gear then? gem/stat wise and well i;m ecperimenting atm with different gear pieces i will put on the best gear i have and leave it like that for a while. but i'm only asking for advice how i can improve my threat from my part wihtout relying too much on others. about the benediction it;s only a dump for talentoint since i don;t knwo were i can be put as i have never had to use divine sacrifise.

Rune
07-09-2009, 10:22 AM
what could i improve on my gear then? gem/stat wise and well i;m ecperimenting atm with different gear pieces i will put on the best gear i have and leave it like that for a while. but i'm only asking for advice how i can improve my threat from my part wihtout relying too much on others. about the benediction it;s only a dump for talentoint since i don;t knwo were i can be put as i have never had to use divine sacrifise.

Divine sacrifice can be quite useful at times..like frozen blows on hodir (if you need the backup tank and help for healers for progressing) or tantrum on xt, but its more of a means to an end for the sacred shield for me, which is a very nice one to have up and active.
Once I had gear around your level my threat issues had gone away so I'm not sure what your issue is, I use glyph of judgement over hammer of the righteousness but in exchange you talented into holy for seals of the pure that I didnt. I have the two set from conquerers too then. Heart of the crusader is an optional if you have ret paladins in your guild that raid (which I always do - guild and raid leader is one, and often a second there).

Still not convinced about bladeward and with threat issues you might have been better with accuracy, and given upgrading the sword would scale your dps and threat quite well accordingly, might be an option to go with that when you replace it (leviathon with one tower up is relatively speaking very easy and titanguard would be a huge step up).

Ryoku
07-09-2009, 11:28 AM
what do you start your pull with?
I noticed that your block rating is quite low, on the armory it shows you at 33 ( i am sitting at 94). Furthermore after checking your gear a little more I think your block value is considerably lower than mine, which in turn means your SoR makes less damage leading to less threat.

I got a question concerning your chest enchant, wouldn't it be better to go for the +22 defense one?

here are some further readings concerning threat for tankadins:
Maintankadin • View topic - Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work) (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?p=421811#p421811)
The Protection Paladin Field Manual (WoW-3.0/WotLK) - Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t37172-protection_paladin_field_manual_wow_3_0_wotlk/)

Kerrath
07-09-2009, 12:06 PM
I'm going to say to use headknocker's build. Mine's slightly different, but then again mine caters to my personal playstyle, and I managed to get 8-12k tps (bumped up to 12 when hunters would MD, usually hovered around 9k) on patchwerk 25 with vigilance on me.

Another thing I'm going to say--and I'm sure everyone here will hate me for saying it--but don't be afraid to pick up a few pieces of select block value gear. It scales up threat remarkably well. Sure, for a boss that hits for up to 20k, blocking seems to be a waste, but i'd pick them up for the threat.

You're also not block capped which does cut down on holy shield procs anyways, though this might be a smaller portion of your threat.

Akeber
07-09-2009, 12:14 PM
You're low on hit, getting hit capped will help. You're expertice capped with SoV up and the glyph, but paladins don't really get much extra threat from expertice (changing in 3.2, it will be almost as good as hit). Your weapon is on the low end, so that's holding you back.

Your spec should be changed. Reckoning is bad, dont take it.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sZq0xAMuMusIufdxf0x0c) Is the best threat spec ATM. The two points in Improved HoJ can go elsewhere in the lower end of the prot tree, like divinity, if you like. The second point in improved judgements could also go into Imp. might or in benediction if you like. You should only need 1/2 in spiritual attunement unless you're tanking Vezax, then I'd grab the second point and drop to 2/3 in crusade.

If you're doing 969 propertly, there should never be any "free" time to throw anything in. You can choose to substitute something if you like. Holy shield is the only normal rotation spell worth substituting, it has the lowest dps of the five. So you could throw in exorcism instead of holy shield, but overall it is only a small gain in threat (100tps or something). The other thing to keep in mind is that dropping holy shield will give 9 seconds of time where there is a good chance you won't be blocking at all and will take a bit more physical damage. You'll have to judge wherether or not it is worth it. Also, the substitution won't be viable after 3.2 because exo is being given a 1.5 second cast time.

If you really want to know about palading threat generation, go read this thread from start to finish:
Maintankadin • View topic - Theck's MATLAB TPS analysis (A Jonesy derivative work) (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20823)

Zypth
07-09-2009, 12:29 PM
Alrighty Zeraph. Generally, Warrior and Paladin tanks' threat is built off of their shield block rating. Your armory page tells me you have 12% shield block rating. However, your avoidance is pretty okay.

Now, I'm sure you know that shield block = Guaranteed avoidance, while Parry and Dodge isn't always going to happen. With your avoidance being as high as it is, it may explain why you're in Ulduar.

Like one of the people above me said, your gear is okay, but not great.

Now my point is that you need shield block. If you can get any gear that will give you shield block, I'd say take it. If you can get Wall of Terror, Valorous shoulders, those should up your block significantly. It will also increase your threat.

What someone else said, your hit and expertise are low. After looking, yes, they are low. Hit rating is kind of hard (IMO) to get as a tank, I let all the hit rating I get come from my gear, I do not gem for Hit rating. Expertise is something else, however. As you know, Expertise reduces the chance a mob or boss will dodge/parry your attacks. The more expertise you get, the more threat you will build, ALWAYS.

I don't really like your gems for hit. If you gem for expertise, I think you'll be better of, seeing as you're still nowhere near hit cap.

And for the gear, try aiming for new shoulders, chest, belt, ring, sword and shield, helm and neck.

Tanking weapons: Last Laugh/Broken Promise.
From my experience: Broken Promise = huge threat builder, as it is a slow, heavy hitting weapon with expertise.
Last Laugh: is one I have, and I don't really know what to say about it. It's nice, it's some avoidance, and is fast, and has hit, and significant dps on it.

New shield: Barricade of Eternity = Threat shield, parry + exp
Wall of Terror = Trash shield, or make up threat shied because of the shield block. dodge+shield block
Hero's Surrender = Avoidance

Also, keep some of the gear you have, as some fights might demand more avoidance over shield block, or health, etc. If you look into Threat, Effective Health and Mitigation and Avoidance sets recommended by tanks, it'll do you great.

Like I said, aim for Shield block at the moment, strength(Because it should modify shield block, I think... I'm not sure about pallys) and expertise. Don't worry about the hit, mine on my warrior is 163, and he dishes 4k+ no problem. I have three different sets of tanking, and I switch accordingly by my experience. <3.

Dtain
07-09-2009, 12:48 PM
Alrighty Zeraph. Generally, Warrior and Paladin tanks' threat is built off of their shield block rating. Your armory page tells me you have 12% shield block rating. However, your avoidance is pretty okay.

Now, I'm sure you know that shield block = Guaranteed avoidance, while Parry and Dodge isn't always going to happen. With your avoidance being as high as it is, it may explain why you're in Ulduar.

Like one of the people above me said, your gear is okay, but not great.

Now my point is that you need shield block. If you can get any gear that will give you shield block, I'd say take it. If you can get Wall of Terror, Valorous shoulders, those should up your block significantly. It will also increase your threat.

What someone else said, your hit and expertise are low. After looking, yes, they are low. Hit rating is kind of hard (IMO) to get as a tank, I let all the hit rating I get come from my gear, I do not gem for Hit rating. Expertise is something else, however. As you know, Expertise reduces the chance a mob or boss will dodge/parry your attacks. The more expertise you get, the more threat you will build, ALWAYS.

I don't really like your gems for hit. If you gem for expertise, I think you'll be better of, seeing as you're still nowhere near hit cap.

And for the gear, try aiming for new shoulders, chest, belt, ring, sword and shield, helm and neck.

Tanking weapons: Last Laugh/Broken Promise.
From my experience: Broken Promise = huge threat builder, as it is a slow, heavy hitting weapon with expertise.
Last Laugh: is one I have, and I don't really know what to say about it. It's nice, it's some avoidance, and is fast, and has hit, and significant dps on it.

New shield: Barricade of Eternity = Threat shield, parry + exp
Wall of Terror = Trash shield, or make up threat shied because of the shield block. dodge+shield block
Hero's Surrender = Avoidance

Also, keep some of the gear you have, as some fights might demand more avoidance over shield block, or health, etc. If you look into Threat, Effective Health and Mitigation and Avoidance sets recommended by tanks, it'll do you great.

Like I said, aim for Shield block at the moment, strength(Because it should modify shield block, I think... I'm not sure about pallys) and expertise. Don't worry about the hit, mine on my warrior is 163, and he dishes 4k+ no problem. I have three different sets of tanking, and I switch accordingly by my experience. <3.

There is some bad information here.
A paladins threat is not tied into sheild block rating with the exception of holy sheild but that is a very minor source of threat.

SBV will increase your threat through Shield of the righteous, however you really shouldn't focus on SBV over avoidance when gearing for any boss fight.

It was mentioned earlier that your weapon isn't great, upgradeing that will be a huge boost to threat through hammer of the righteous since it is based sololy upon weapon dps. Weapon speed is not a huge concern for prot pallys, look mostly on the stats / dps when making your choice, generally the highest ilvl tanking weapon will be the best for you.

Lastly Expertise is not a great stat for prot pally due to glyph of vengence you only need 16 base and the glyph takes care of the rest, not to mention consecrate, holy sheild, and judgment are not effected by expertise what so ever so 3/5 of your threat rotation is uneffected. Hit is a better choice however I would not gem for ither just look for upgrades with it.

Akeber
07-09-2009, 01:04 PM
Zyph's advice about expertice is coming from a warrior's perspective. When referring to warrior threat EXP>HIT. However, it is the complete opposite for prot paladins. Your experice is fine, you need more hit, but try to get it from gear rather than gems. +20hit on your gloves would probably be better than the 2% threat and 10 parry until you can get some more hit from gear.

Again, shield block rating is also inferior prot pallies, as holy shield gives us 30% block chance with a 100% uptime. Being block capped is nice, but not a goal for an MT/Progression set.

Rune
07-10-2009, 08:48 AM
There is some bad information here.
A paladins threat is not tied into sheild block rating with the exception of holy sheild but that is a very minor source of threat.

SBV will increase your threat through Shield of the righteous, however you really shouldn't focus on SBV over avoidance when gearing for any boss fight.

It was mentioned earlier that your weapon isn't great, upgradeing that will be a huge boost to threat through hammer of the righteous since it is based sololy upon weapon dps. Weapon speed is not a huge concern for prot pallys, look mostly on the stats / dps when making your choice, generally the highest ilvl tanking weapon will be the best for you.

Lastly Expertise is not a great stat for prot pally due to glyph of vengence you only need 16 base and the glyph takes care of the rest, not to mention consecrate, holy sheild, and judgment are not effected by expertise what so ever so 3/5 of your threat rotation is uneffected. Hit is a better choice however I would not gem for ither just look for upgrades with it.

Weapon speed should be quick to apply your seal, but its not a huge issue so take the highest dps with the best stats on it........generally tanking weapons come fast to medium speed anyway.
A big chunk of your threat comes through application of your seal and consecrate in holy damage, and the advantage paladins have is that that its not avoidable or reducable. Dont forget that spellpower is increased by stamina, which you talent otherwise to scale even more, so stacking stamina also boosts your threat.

As for shield block value.....it usually comes tied with block rating, which shouldnt be a priority but no harm including some in your gear just to push towards the unhittable cap, plus will help scale threat a little.

I think your best boost would come with a weapon upgrade, enchanted with hit, should be a priority to push for that.

As a sidenote your main worry should be threat in raids not heroics, that can happen purely because you work better with buff scaling and spam healing giving unlimited mana, in heroics you can always push your gear down in overall quality jsut to push threat if needed, where you need threat and avoidance as much as possible for raids.

Martie
07-10-2009, 09:13 AM
Alrighty Zeraph. Generally, Warrior and Paladin tanks' threat is built off of their shield block rating. Your armory page tells me you have 12% shield block rating. However, your avoidance is pretty okay.

Ignore this. Either this guy is making some really annoying typos, or he has no clue what he is talking about.
As a paladin, a significant amount of your threat comes from your shield block value. It's still not a stat worth aiming for, though, since your gear should have enough of it through strength.

Now, I'm sure you know that shield block = Guaranteed avoidance, while Parry and Dodge isn't always going to happen. With your avoidance being as high as it is, it may explain why you're in Ulduar.

Shield block is not avoidance. It's mitigation. And with the amounts that shield block currently does, you either don't need it, or it won't make that big a difference, at least in Ulduar.

Zeraph
07-13-2009, 06:12 AM
First of all i want to thank you for your help, after taking most of your advice to heart, i made some changes to my rotations and gear *mostly hit rating, and A weapon* and i now have a base threat line of 4k in hc;s and push 6 to 9k easy in raids. thanx a lot it realy helped me.

Conreeaght
07-13-2009, 06:33 AM
Now, I'm sure you know that shield block = Guaranteed avoidance

BLOCK IS NOT AVOIDANCE!

I could come up with more pithy ways, but I really don't want this person steered down the wrong path by such errors in judgement. I too play a warrior, and pallies are...different. They need hit far more then expertise (though expertise is useful too) due to the amount of 'caster table' damage delt (as said above, 3/5), they have a much higher need for hit. In this case, a sledgehammer of blunt information isn't at all useful for tightening the bolts on threat.

I'll end on a positive note to make my post useful. Pally threat issues - which, as was mentioned above - is difficult to diagnose other then making sure their armory is set up right. Then, all we can do is offer remarks based on playstyle such as not macroing (due to limiting versitility) and can only go so far without seeing them play and these practices put to use.